Low Tier Tournaments - Link/Luigi?

[Nightblade]

I don't know how prevalent this is in other regions, but it seems in a number of Pacific West low tier tournaments, there's three arguments.

-Luigi shouldn't be allowed in low tier.
-Link shouldn't be allowed in low tier.
-Luigi and Link shouldn't be allowed in low tier.

I want to know what everyone thinks. At Nexus in Southern California, I believe something like 70% of the Top 10 in Low Tier was Luigi, including Ken who said he was playing Luigi to prove that Luigi wasn't low tier and consequently won all of his matches. I'd like to have an opinion, but an informed opinion. Right now I'm going with this: Both Link and Luigi have been proven to play an a higher level of play than many other low tier characters. Aniki is the best example of this I would say, and there's several very good Luigis. If you look at Low Tier tournaments, you get something like 80% Link and Luigi. Eliminate them and you'll get a much larger selection of characters, or so it would seem. Either that or people will pick the next character that is easiest to kick *** with.

What makes Luigi low or middle tier?
What makes Link low or middle tier?

@Moderators: How do you do polls? I was going to do one with:
Link - Mid Tier, Luigi - Low Tier
Link - Low Tier, Luigi - Mid Tier
Link - Mid Tier, Luigi - Mid Tier
Link - Low Tier, Luigi - Low Tier

 

[Shiri]

Link and Luigi do not belong in low tier tournaments.

Whether they're "low tier" or not according to the garbage @$$ list we have now is irrelevant--there's a certain absolute character value to each character that we, as players, cannot and should not ignore. Their spot on the list could be debatable for eons, but the fact of the matter is that they're too good for low tier tournaments.

Let me say that again. Link and Luigi are TOO GOOD for low tier tournaments.

The only reason I'm being so adamant about this is because I've been dealing with the same issue for the past couple tournaments that I've held and attended. Honestly, letting Link and Luigi into low tier makes as much sense as restricting a "top tier" tourney to Fox and Falco (in accordance with the list), ignoring Sheik and Marth (or whoever else you feel may or may not be top tier). Is it playable? Kinda... Does that make it a good idea? Not really.

I also think Zelda's too good for low tier, but that's probably just me. I'll keep this on topic with Link and Luigi, though. Yeah, they're tooooooo good for that mess.

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Edit:
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Okay, I'm going to clarify this so it doesn't seem like I'm trying to say something that I'm not. I'm not necessarily saying that Link and Luigi and whoever else don't belong at their current spot in the tier list blah blah blah. What I'm talking about here is character worth. Sure, in the original post, the author describes that Link and Luigi can be brought to high levels of play. But guess what? So can most every character. This isn't about that, though. This is about how everyone in the low tier tournament does against each other.

Isn't that the reason for the low tier tourney? So people can play casual characters or characters they prefer, but don't have to worry about getting super gayed by top tier? Well, if low tier tournaments are about admitting characters who can fare against each other more or less evenly without it being incredibly lopsided, then Link and Luigi don't belong there. Neither of those two have too much trouble with the other characters in low tier--as a matter of fact, they destroy in most, if not all, of their matchups against low tiers.

Anyway, I didn't mean for this to be so long--I just wanted to make my point clear.

 

[Nightblade]

Shiri, that's the kind of thing I'm looking for. If you want to make it short and sweet, do it. If you've got an agenda, by all means do what you wish.

 

[Skler]

I submit that Fox and Falco are too good for any tournament then. I mean, they win like 70% of all tournies! Very few characters aren't at a disadvantage against Fox and Falco!

We should ban them so tournaments allow people to use more characters, despite the fact that doing so would actually take away two characters. I'm all for being a hypocrite, but come on now. Don't be silly.

Link and luigi do have some bad matchups in low tier. I don't play Luigi, but I know Link < YL and at least even with pika.

 

[TrageÐy ®]

Luigi, low Tier? NO WAI :o

 

[dguy6789]

I don't have a problem with Luigi and Link being in low tier tourneys; it doesn't bother me one bit. Granted, I play Mewtwo against Foxes, Marths, and all of the crazy bad matchups and it doesn't bother me, so perhaps my opinion is a bit lop-sided.

 

[SpruceTengu]

Kudos to Dguy. Takes some massive skill to play a good Mewtwo; and some respectable cohones to play a character everyone whines about being low tier. Hats off to you sir.
-Spruce

 

[Anther]

Although I do agree to a degree that Luigi might fare a lil better (or a lot) against low tiers than most other low tier characters, I really don't think that its as unfair as you guys are saying.
I really disagree with Link being too unfair for low tiers, simply because he's a character that you have to get used to fighting against more-so than most characters, and amongst the low tiers that I've used that aren't Kirby, he's not that dominant. The only times I've seen Link being a problem against other low tier characters is if he was better than me.

And yeah.. Ken winning every match with luigi isn't that great of an argument... but if he says its easiest to win with Luigi than all the other characters then its probably true.

 

[theONEjanitor]

i honestly think that luigi and link are the single (or double lol) most underrated characters on the game.

I want to see someone win a major tournament with a Link. I truly believe he has that potential.
I might pick up Link just for the pure principle of it.

Ken winning with Luigi IS an argument @ Anther.
Ken is arguably the best player in the world, so if anyone can unlock the potential of a character, it would be him. I guarantee you that if ken played Pichu against KDJ or someone he would get his *** handed to him. But the fact that he can play Luigi at such a high level says something about Luigi.


as for low tier tournaments. who cares.
The tiers aren't based on the actual potential of a character. Tiers a basically a glorified popularity contest. Skill at the game overrides tiers any day of the week. The only character that literally belongs in a tier is Fox and Pichu,as they are clearly better and worse characters than every other characters (potentially).
Low tier characters are simply the characters that high level players don't pick, not necessarily the ones that aren't good.
One day maybe an awesome Luigi player will rise up, causing all these noobs to pick up Luigi, on that day then you can take him out the low tier tournaments. Till then, whatever

 

[Rage.]

Nightblade I noticed that too in Pacific west that Luigi and Link have been taken off Low teir list for tornments

heres my 2 cents
If they got there place on the teir list then the deserve it
no matter if people can use them at a higher level of play
those characters earned it.
so they are Low teir

But in the end it goes down to whoever throws the tornement
if Washington threw the torney then Luigi would be taken off because of Ka-Master and Ppa0
but if MLG had a low tier they would allow Luigi and Link

 

[Cherokee Warrior]

i honestly think that luigi and link are the single (or double lol) most underrated characters on the game.

I want to see someone win a major tournament with a Link. I truly believe he has that potential.
I might pick up Link just for the pure principle of it.

Ken winning with Luigi IS an argument @ Anther.
Ken is arguably the best player in the world, so if anyone can unlock the potential of a character, it would be him. I guarantee you that if ken played Pichu against KDJ or someone he would get his *** handed to him. But the fact that he can play Luigi at such a high level says something about Luigi.


as for low tier tournaments. who cares.
The tiers aren't based on the actual potential of a character. Tiers a basically a glorified popularity contest. Skill at the game overrides tiers any day of the week. The only character that literally belongs in a tier is Fox and Pichu,as they are clearly better and worse characters than every other characters (potentially).
Low tier characters are simply the characters that high level players don't pick, not necessarily the ones that aren't good.
One day maybe an awesome Luigi player will rise up, causing all these noobs to pick up Luigi, on that day then you can take him out the low tier tournaments. Till then, whatever

hey, we have a saying at 4chan, goes something liek this:

LURK MOAR

 

[Endless Nightmares]

Ken also won a low-tier tournament with Game & Watch. I guess G&W's too good for low tier too? *cough he is*

What I've experienced in a lot of low tier tourneys is that many people will choose Luigi and Link, even if they're not comfortable with the character. They're easy to beat because they're out of their element. I main Game & Watch so its not a problem for me.

Luigi and Link are not good enough for middle tier. Also, they're not too good for low tier. Too many people overrate Link and Luigi's status on the tier list.

 

[Cherokee Warrior]

link and luigi are garbage.

 

[shadydentist]

theONEjanitor, I have to disagree with most of what you said.

Tiers are based on a character's potential at the current metagame, not on some popularity contest. The people who made the tier list know the strengths and weaknesses of each character very well.

No matter how much you "unlock" a character's potential, Game and Watch will still have a terrible shield, Bowser can still be comboed by everybody, Roy is still not as good as marth... Higher tier characters all have minimal weaknesses or extraordinary abilities to negate their weaknesses. That is why no matter how much potential is unlocked, Link will not suddenly start winning lots of tournaments. Yea, skill>tiers but skills + tiers>>>>>everything.

Ken winning with Luigi doesn't prove too much either way. But consider this: For a long time, Azen played only low tier characters at tournaments. How many did he win? Then he switched back to Marth/Falcon/whatever. How many did he win then?

 

[pikachun00b7]

I submit that Fox and Falco are too good for any tournament then. I mean, they win like 70% of all tournies!

Thats because 90% of smashers play them.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

That's because they win like 70% of all tourneys.

 

[psicicle]

theONEjanitor, I have to disagree with most of what you said.

Tiers are based on a character's potential at the current metagame, not on some popularity contest. The people who made the tier list know the strengths and weaknesses of each character very well.

No matter how much you "unlock" a character's potential, Game and Watch will still have a terrible shield, Bowser can still be comboed by everybody, Roy is still not as good as marth... Higher tier characters all have minimal weaknesses or extraordinary abilities to negate their weaknesses. That is why no matter how much potential is unlocked, Link will not suddenly start winning lots of tournaments. Yea, skill>tiers but skills + tiers>>>>>everything.

Ken winning with Luigi doesn't prove too much either way. But consider this: For a long time, Azen played only low tier characters at tournaments. How many did he win? Then he switched back to Marth/Falcon/whatever. How many did he win then?

Actually the tiers are based on tourney results.

 

[shadydentist]

Actually the tiers are based on tourney results.

Not entirely. The tier list was started based on the metagame, but has become more and more affected by major tournament results.

 

[Skler]

I think people failed to see the sarcasm of my post. Banning Link and Luigi in low tier because they are too good is just as stupid as banning fox and falco from all tournies because they are too good. Just look at their matchups, then look at the matchups of Luigi and Link in low tiers.

The argument of most people using Fox/Falco isn't valid because most people use Link/Luigi in low tier. Of course they are going to win if people use them!

 

[Metà]

*EDIT* Ignore this post. I completely missed the point of this thread. My bad.

 

[infilade]

fox and falco are single-handedly the hardest characters to learn. a beginner can pick up sheik, marth, and peach, and start to be decent pretty quickly. but with fox and falco, you have to work to get them to an at least moderate level of play.

 

[strider43]

luigi is not low tier if the person playing him knows what they're doing

 

[Shiri]

I can't help but feel like this thread should stop focusing on top tiers and go back to Link and Lu.

 

[NG7]

That's because they win like 70% of all tourneys.

^ I like this guy (thumbs up)

 

[flipkid]

noones mentioned anything about what makes them not good enough for mid tier.. these are easily two of the.. if not THE two most gimpable characters in the game... luigi is ubervulnerable to spikes (pikas tail fox's shine ganons uair) and has little vertical recovery unless you can max that tornado...

and link has a better recovery than luigi.. but he is massively easier to combo.. also his horizontal recovery is pretty weak unless you can bomb jump and have the height to do it... other than that his range besides his projectiles is pretty weak..

 

[10th-Karma]

I believe there is a fine line between if one person's Luigi is low tier or midt tier. If the player does smart wavedashing (not just flying alll across the screen), uses tilts off throws/WD to f-tilt, and has the tornado recovery to over 9-10 times per sec, he/she would have a good advantage in a low-tier tournament. But since tiers aren't judging the player's ability, I'd say keep him in.

Luigi has sooooo many weaknesses though. as highlighted by flipkid. I could still see a good pika knock off a good luigi. Also, if you look at the character matchups thread, Luigi doesn't have that big of an advantage cept for like mewtwo and someone else I think.

 

[theONEjanitor]

theONEjanitor, I have to disagree with most of what you said.

Tiers are based on a character's potential at the current metagame, not on some popularity contest. The people who made the tier list know the strengths and weaknesses of each character very well.

No matter how much you "unlock" a character's potential, Game and Watch will still have a terrible shield, Bowser can still be comboed by everybody, Roy is still not as good as marth... Higher tier characters all have minimal weaknesses or extraordinary abilities to negate their weaknesses. That is why no matter how much potential is unlocked, Link will not suddenly start winning lots of tournaments. Yea, skill>tiers but skills + tiers>>>>>everything.

Ken winning with Luigi doesn't prove too much either way. But consider this: For a long time, Azen played only low tier characters at tournaments. How many did he win? Then he switched back to Marth/Falcon/whatever. How many did he win then?

Tieres are based on their popularity. The only reason that Certain characters have a more developed metagame and win more tourneys is because that's who people pick all the time! if everyone picks Fox, then the odds that a Fox wins the tournament is a large chance. I GUARANTEE you that if Ken played MLG tournaments with G&W and did well (which he would), that EVERYONE would be playing G&W and his 2D *** would be God Tier. People will have figured out some crazy **** like G&W's u-air has a hitbox thats only out for a frame thats an instant KO or something or whatever...we'll never find anything like that out, because no one bothers to try to figure it out except probably Ken, who would probably win most of the tournaments that are formed in the world, with his Game and Watch, because he's good, regardless of some gay tier.

Some characters have certain advantages and disadvantges. Duh. GW's shield sucks, but somehow Ken and good GW mains manage to **** Luigis and Links all night long, poor shield and all. Bowser is slow and big and heavy, yet Gimpyfish's Bowser is SICK. The very thing that makes players good is learning to overcome the disadvantages. Who says Roy is better than Marth. Marth is MORE POPULAR than Roy. Marth's metagame is MORE developed than Roy. Neo's Roy could destroy nearly every marth in the world. Including many of the greatest to pick up the game. Marth is probably easier to play with, because its more natural to attempt to hit someone with a tipper than with the middle of the sword, but Roy has a lot of odvious advantages that Marth doesn't. You know the reason Marth is high tier and Roy isn't? Because Ken plays with marth. He showed us what Marth can do. Before that, Marth was middle tier.
What makes a character high tier is someone showing us what they can do. and I'm waiting for someone to do it with Link.


Link is a strong, heavy, powerhouse who has three differnet projectiles, sure he can't get 10 hit combos off, but flash is not all it takes to win. (Just all it takes to be high tier)

I was under the impression that Azen ranked usually within the top five of nearly every tournament he's attended, regardless of which character he's playing with.

 

[Fefnir Cerveau]

Ken also won a low-tier tournament with Game & Watch. I guess G&W's too good for low tier too? *cough he is*

What I've experienced in a lot of low tier tourneys is that many people will choose Luigi and Link, even if they're not comfortable with the character. They're easy to beat because they're out of their element. I main Game & Watch so its not a problem for me.

Luigi and Link are not good enough for middle tier. Also, they're not too good for low tier. Too many people overrate Link and Luigi's status on the tier list.

Qft.
Link, Luigi, G&W, Zelda, and maybe even pikachu imo have a bit more capability in playing at a high level. But just because they're a bit better, doesn't mean they should be banned, or moved one up on the hierarchy. If they do, characters like Sheik should be top tier, Falcon should be high, etc.

 

[Toomai]

If you keep taking out characters that keep winning, eventually you'll only have one character left. And how dumb would that be?

 

[choknater]

If you keep taking out characters that keep winning, eventually you'll only have one character left. And how dumb would that be?

as much as i would like luigi out of low tier tournaments, toomai is right. if luigi and link are taken out, what's the next best thing? donkey kong.

and good donkey kongs are ****ING SCARY.

low tier players would look at DK the same way they're looking at luigi right now. but i guess the popularity argument holds here. DK's not nearly as popular as luigi and link, the latter two are even used in regular tournaments.

pacific west bans luigi and link in low tier because west side has like 5 luigis who win non-LT tournaments with luigi lol. WA has ka-master, norcal has meep and kev$, socal has ROFL and ultraluigi, etc. not to mention foxroar and the GERM and Ken who use them very well too.

i don't know why we ban link... probably because of germ LOL

 

[CStrife187]

theONEjanitor, I don't know if you're pissed right now, but don't post when you're pissed. You're arguments make less sense, and people are less likely to take you seriously. Tiers are based on tournament results, and because of the large number of people playing this game at any given time, most every technique has been discovered, even if it hasn't been utilized in tournaments. The fact is that some characters are just better than others. This is true in any fighting game, not just smash.

 

[DALegendarySauce]

Ken won a low tier tourney with Luigi. PRoves nothing, he's effing Ken, he can win a tournament without a controller. Akin to saying that I beat a 2nd grader with a wiffel bat.

Luigi is good as hell, and sexy.
Link grabs like a beast in skilled hands and does that gay up throw up tilt upair up tilt downair combo, whick is beast.

Other good characters imo are DK, Ness and Pikachu.

Luigi has bad recovery, so he's low tier.
when he's off the stage he's garbage unless ur bairing to edgegaurd.

Link has the cool chain and stuff but he is not fast enough without huge beast L-cancel dash and then still.

People do amazing things with a lot of characters. Azen did good as hell at FC using Link and Zelda, and maybe pikachu idk.

If you don't want to have a Luigi, Link tourney then ban then and it'll be two other characters. Idk about you but my last tourney was Fox Falco mostly by alot.

They are the top tier of low tier tourneys. So after you ban them, ban Fox and falco and go watch some beetleborgs, followed by Inuyasha, while reading boy's life magazine, and thinking about what your cat's opinion of your drawing of him is and why

negative rep.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

Other good characters imo are DK, Ness and Pikachu.

>_>

<_<

 

[5150]

Ken won a low tier tourney with Luigi. PRoves nothing, he's effing Ken, he can win a tournament without a controller. Akin to saying that I beat a 2nd grader with a wiffel bat.

Luigi is good as hell, and sexy.
Link grabs like a beast in skilled hands and does that gay up throw up tilt upair up tilt downair combo, whick is beast.

Other good characters imo are DK, Ness and Pikachu.

Luigi has bad recovery, so he's low tier.
when he's off the stage he's garbage unless ur bairing to edgegaurd.

Link has the cool chain and stuff but he is not fast enough without huge beast L-cancel dash and then still.

People do amazing things with a lot of characters. Azen did good as hell at FC using Link and Zelda, and maybe pikachu idk.

If you don't want to have a Luigi, Link tourney then ban then and it'll be two other characters. Idk about you but my last tourney was Fox Falco mostly by alot.

They are the top tier of low tier tourneys. So after you ban them, ban Fox and falco and go watch some beetleborgs, followed by Inuyasha, while reading boy's life magazine, and thinking about what your cat's opinion of your drawing of him is and why

negative rep.

nothing to say b ut DA 4 LYFE

 

[Radical Dreamer]

>_>

<_<

Well they're better than Bowser.

 

[exarch]

Roy has a solid chance against any one of those characters mentioned.
WC just doesn't know how to play him.
..and Zelda counters Roy.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

haha dk and pika sure, but not ness XD

 

[exarch]

Nah, Ness Roy isn't so bad. Initially Roy gets *****. But after a couple of matches it's pretty fair.
Link Roy is close to even too.

 

[strider43]

If you use the equation -5>x>2

You can see that x= link and 2= Younglink while bowser is -5. Where does luigi come into this equation? Simple. He is what is greater that who. See my point?

 

[Artistry]

Tiers are based on a character's potential at the current metagame, not on some popularity contest. The people who made the tier list know the strengths and weaknesses of each character very well.

That is incorrect, sir, Tiers are based on tournament wide wins and losses with each character, and who tends to win the most.