Losing to "scrubby" techniques

[Kirby Phelps (PK)]

It always sucks to lose...but it sucks even harder to lose against someone who uses bad or "scrubby" techniques. I don't know why, but it seems to happen to me often online. I meet someone who does things that aren't smart and shouldn't work, but they do. I remember facing a Samus (I was Shulk) that did nothing but roll constantly from one end of the stage to the other and charging up her B when she was far enough away from me. Every time I'd try to get in close, she'd just roll away or keep me away with tilts or a proper air attack if I approached from the air. Sometimes I'd just wait for her to come to me, but she was extremely patient and refused to approach. I knew exactly what she was doing...and yet she two stocked me. It stings because I know what they're doing is stupid, but I'm so used to fighting people that actually play smart and aggressively. So when I fight someone with such strange and probably "scrubby" techniques, I don't know what to do and I lose. I don't know if it's just a sign that I suck or if this is something that happens to other people too. Is it weird for you guys fighting people with arguably bad techniques? And are they even bad if they're working...?

 

[Master Knight DH]

People say losing to that idiocy is "proof" you're bad, but no. Samus just happens to have so many invincibility frames on her rolls this time around that it's absurd. Charge Shot not being nerfed from in Brawl where most attacks' damage output was doesn't help matters either.

I have to point out that Samus being capable of that sort of problem results in some unhealthy character bias. In fact, I had butchered a Spamus with WII FIT TRAINER here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdDpFF2AQ1k (17:53)
It wasn't even close: I had taken only 40% the entire match and was under no threat of being KOed at all as a result. But it wasn't because I was simply better. WFT also happens to have some rockin' air maneuverability to let me pressure the edgecamping well beyond what Spamus could handle. And lo and behold why spam could need to be checked: anybody abusing it tends to have nothing to fall back on. How is anybody losing to spam worse than these players again? And I don't want to hear excuses for answering that question from Fragile Speedster players.

I know for a fact I easily have more respect for the Link here, by the name of Rin, than all the Spamuses combined:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-nfWWMaa6Y (16:29-21:06)


I think the only problem you'd have, if any, would be being too anxious. Which to be fair is supposed to be caught because this IS a fighting game, but really, spam like that not having its damage output being kept under control is seriously off-the-clock for an already controversial at best concept.

By the way, just for your review, I sent in a PM to somebody else a list of stuff I believe each character should have, with the worth I can be sure covering the involved workload:
-Basic appeal strengths that still have significant blind spots
-Weaknesses allowing for Beat Them At Their Own Game
-Coverage ability against weaknesses, that requires methodical gameplay
-Multiple anti-armor methods with technical strengths and weaknesses based on character's personality
-Workable ability to bust both non-methodical kiting and brain-dead melee rushes
-Entry barriers or other such checks up to and including low-end damage output for any and all overly simplistic tactics for given builds
-Reward for controlling the center

 

[Trifroze]

You learn to punish playstyles like that if you play versus them long enough, although it's important to remember that online is online. You can't even react to 20 frame moves or faster if there's 10+ frames of input delay because your reaction time itself is about 10-15 frames, and often there's twice that much delay in FG. Powershielding is out of question and punishing rolls on reaction when anticipating them is impossible. The online delay really helps a lot of scrubby strategies because the sole reason they shouldn't work is that you can punish them on reaction offline. The best thing to do is to just ignore these players and leave them be. Most of them would say that online and offline don't differ but that's only because they haven't learned to play the game at a high enough level to have their capabilities handicapped by delay. Thus, they barely notice it and genuinely think it makes no difference.

 

[NotAnAdmin]

As Falco, I use his super high jump and shine to keep the projectiles away. I don't give them what they want. Which is you trying to run in so they can hit you with a smash.
Just don't rush in. Condition them into doing something that would give you an opening that can be punished.
Samus has the most wonkiest roll in Smash 4, with the extra delay of online it's pretty tough to punish it correctly.

The main thing is don't rush in, they will get bored eventually and try to attack you at close range, where you can make your move
It's kind of an exercise in keeping your cool and playing patiently.

 

[The pig-keeper]

The only good point in these types of fight is that you can practice your roll punishments, which is in my opinion vital in sm4sh...
Being able to foresee when he's going to make that shoddy roll just to get to the opposite side of the stage and just blast you with projectiles is a proof that you're getting better both in character mastering and personnal skills.

That's basically a read, and you should take it as it is.
But I confess it's frustrating.. VERY frustrating.

Furthermore, i'd say these guys allow you to understand chracters' respective rolls (frame data, speed, length) and therefore understand that rolls are by far, toxic in any playstyle.

And he's right :

It's kind of an exercise in keeping your cool and playing patiently.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Dude this is standard online nonsense. When you play offline TRUST me, its a different story. You can just "SEE" when bad players want to roll and you get free damage everytime.

Neo in the Matrix you feel me?

 

[LightLV]

1) Smash 4's roll and shield frames heavily encourage this type of gameplay. Don't feel discouraged that it's hard to beat, because it's absurdly good in this game.

2) Netplay makes this infinitely worse. There are few precious frames to punish this with to begin with, and usually input lag will ensure that you'll never punish it on reaction, even if you know it's coming. I've played many games where netplay breeds silly netwarrior-only strategies, and Smash 4 is by far the worst.

3) Playing offline is better because punishing is more natural, but it really doesn't change #1. Get really acquainted with grabs and learn when to attempt a punish and when to just let it ride and take positioning.

Anytime a character forces you to approach in this game, you're at a disadvantage. Learn how to neutral without making yourself vulnerable.

 

[AnchorTea]

1) Smash 4's roll and shield frames heavily encourage this type of gameplay. Don't feel discouraged that it's hard to beat, because it's absurdly good in this game.

That's not true at all. A lot of people keep saying that because of the online lag, which makes rolling very hard to punish.

Without the 60 fps and a totally flat stage. Rolling becomes OP. Which is why FG sucks.

 

[Nexin]

It sounds like you just forgot how to fight scrubs. Same thing happened to me a few months back. This happens because you are so used to playing against people who play very logically that when you face somebody that does really dumb things all the time, you get confused and frustrated because you are wondering why anybody would even try to do that.

The thing is, if you decide that your opponent is a beginner, you can't try to play intelligently against them. I'm not telling you to play like an idiot against them, but instead of trying to outsmart them, you should focus on just trying to beat the one or two tactics that they are over relying on. 9 times out of 10, beginners aren't going to adapt their playstyle even if you think it is obvious how you are beating them.

Admittedly it may not always be easy to do this online, especially if the lag is bad, but based off the way you worded your post, I don't think the lag online is what is causing problems for you. Anyways, I hope this helps.

 

[ZephyrZ]

One of my biggest problems is adapting to it; scrubby tactics are very easy punish if you play right, and I know how to punish them. However, it still doesn't always click with me. I have to keep reminding myself in order to get it to work, but sometimes I just don't remember to, well, remind myself.

Punishing predictable tactics just isn't instinctive to me yet.

 

[A17]

Although it's probably not the case, a psychological thing I'd like to share is:

When you're getting beat out by beginner tactics, chances are, you're playing too smart against that person. By that I mean, you're over-thinking your opponent's strategy.


In a higher level of play, a mental game like this may happen:

You: I'm going to meet this player in the air and keep them off the ground.....but if I do that, they may air dodge, so I'll do an empty jump, land and usmash to punish that dodge. In short, I'm going to set him up.
Opponent: He's been attacking twice in a row. He may do it again, so I'll dodge this time.

*players meet up. You empty jump, opponent air dodges for nothing and you punish accordingly*


In other situations, that may have played out like this:

You: I'm going to meet this player in the air and keep them off the ground.....but if I do that, they may air dodge, so I'll do an empty jump, land and usmash to punish that dodge. In short, I'm going to set him up.
Opponent: Derp, I'm just gonna attack when we get close.

*players meet up. You empty jump, opponent swings their fist. You jumped right into that for free*

 

[K.O.-Beast]

I remember going against Kirby on 1v1 For Glory. That person kept spamming the up-B (sword) and then hititing me with a side-B (hammer) whenever I got close. I got wrecked

 

[Purin a.k.a. José]

I'm just like that... Although, it really depends on how the player behaves. If it randomly charges Smashes I can deal with it, the problem it's if it know really good strategys (e.g. D-Smash when the opponent is rolling towards you).

 

[LightLV]

That's not true at all. A lot of people keep saying that because of the online lag, which makes rolling very hard to punish.

The vast majority of my matches are played locally. Yes, it's very true, rolls are absurd on this game. Being able to punish them doesn't change their strength one bit. For example, people can punish dragonpunches in 2D fighters and they can be used very scrublike, but that doesn't detract from their strength as tools in the slightest.

 

[AnchorTea]

Yes, it's very true, rolls are absurd on this game.

Not really unless you're Samus.

 

[Dream Cancel]

You need to learn how to read rolls (prediction), and spacing. Stand about one roll-length away from the Samus player at all times. Once they're cornered at the ledge, they'll start rolling the other way.

This is where this spacing is important. Since you're one roll-length away from the Samus player, they will roll right to you which you can easily punish with basically anything, but a grab at lower percents or a Down Smash at higher percents is sufficient. (Even with lag)

I typically get people in the air (or off-stage) and start reading air dodges from there.

 

[heliface]

The real problem here is Nintendo's netcode. I am both surprised and appalled that no one is holding them accountable for this.

 

[Rikkhan]

what? are people really complaining about samus roll? Samus has the worst roll in the game.

 

[LightLV]

Not really unless you're Samus.

i dont know anyone who plays samus unless they're trolling, so i wouldn't know. But i don't play online, and i'd say the people I play with locally are above average, at minimum. When I say rolls are absurdly strong, and people reply with "you can just read and punish rolls", i just assume they're talking about For Glory where people only do it because it's generally all they know, and are spoiled by Nintendo's glorious netcode.

I'm speaking from rolling as an option in general. If you're rolling so much that you're getting rested/scorched on the recovery frames, you're just doing it a bit too haphazardly and very very wrong.

And BTW, Samus' roll is probably the only one that doesn't execute at c constant, effectively making it the worst. Having an easily punishable roll on this game is just a deathstroke. Samus' crappy roll is about as good as her crappy jab.

 

[PeejsterM]

what? are people really complaining about samus roll? Samus has the worst roll in the game.

Worst in what respect? It covers the most distance, and has very little end-lag.

 

[Pyr]

Worst in what respect? It covers the most distance, and has very little end-lag.

It's also the slowest thing in the world. Using it basically says "Hey bro. I don't respect you at all, so I'm going to be at this spot in a few hours. Please feel free to grab a beer or 2 and get a nice tan, cause I'll still be rolling when you get back."

You get a free anything because of it.

 

[AnchorTea]

i dont know anyone who plays samus unless they're trolling, so i wouldn't know. But i don't play online, and i'd say the people I play with locally are above average, at minimum. When I say rolls are absurdly strong, and people reply with "you can just read and punish rolls", i just assume they're talking about For Glory where people only do it because it's generally all they know, and are spoiled by Nintendo's glorious netcode.

I'm speaking from rolling as an option in general. If you're rolling so much that you're getting rested/scorched on the recovery frames, you're just doing it a bit too haphazardly and very very wrong.

And BTW, Samus' roll is probably the only one that doesn't execute at c constant, effectively making it the worst. Having an easily punishable roll on this game is just a deathstroke. Samus' crappy roll is about as good as her crappy jab.

Rolls where always somewhay effective in the series. Seriously, ask someone like @Indigo Jeans . She will tell you that rolls aren't absurd at all.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I mean, it's a stronger option and I agree it's harder to adjust to, especially online, but it's not impossible.

Learning ways to work around punishing them is a key thing to learn.

 

[LancerStaff]

It's all about mindset. Don't wait for her to come to you since it will never happen. Even a good Samus knows better then to be remotely offensive.

Honestly, this is something you have to adapt to in any multiplayer game. You can emulate high level play all you want, but when you don't know how to deal with the basics you need to learn the basics.

 

[Roukiske]

To be considered a good player, you must be ready for anything. If you are familiar with Street Fighter, let's compare wake up DP which is using what would be considered your shoryuken after being knocked down. It leaves you highly vulnerable if blocked or missed and to some is considered "scrubby". But what do high level players do? They take that option into account. Given the right situation, even though it is extremely high risk to do, it can win you the match. You MUST be ready for anything.

Back to Sm4sh. Some techniques may seem scrubby like when people say Spam Links, but believe me, most of those Links are the least of your troubles. Try going up against one that can space you out on zair alone which is safer than his projectiles. Instead of asking why you lost to that play, you should ask players what kind of strats you can do against that play. Remember not all characters can do everything so that is also a consideration.

Every now and then I'll switch to Falco and play "lame" with lasers and reflector spacing, even up close. My opponent could think I'm a scrub, but in reality you are being spaced out correctly and being read like a book. I like to see how my opponent adapts to it. Many fail to change their style to accommodate.

 

[LightLV]

Rolls where always somewhat effective in the series. Seriously, ask someone like @Indigo Jeans . She will tell you that rolls aren't absurd at all.

Of course, they've existed since the first game, and Smash 4's is the most powerful roll iteration so far, by a good amount. Everything people say to counter roll spammers has literally been in every single smash game, but this is the only one where people have to actually have conversation on how to punish it. So when people claim rolls in this game somehow aren't any better, i scratch my head.

Every now and then I'll switch to Falco and play "lame" with lasers and reflector spacing, even up close. My opponent could think I'm a scrub, but in reality you are being spaced out correctly and being read like a book. I like to see how my opponent adapts to it. Many fail to change their style to accommodate.

One of my lowest points with falco was when i realized smarter people can literally just eat your lasers at a certain range (e.g. half the distance of battlefiled), get hit, and punish you for shooting them with it. I was awestruck.

Worst in what respect? It covers the most distance, and has very little end-lag.

It covers the most distance, with the slowest animation. Everyone else can roll across the map faster than majority of characters can even dash, while samus is able to be punished on reaction. She's got a roll stuck in the past smash iterations.

 

[PerryEllis]

. I remember facing a Samus

Well there's your problem right there, son. You played a gamer using a Shame-us. Nine times out of ten, that gamer is going to have a boring, dumb, cookie-cutter play style.

You can also expect the same results of gamers using the following characters:

 

[Pyr]

Well there's your problem right there, son. You played a gamer using a Shame-us. Nine times out of ten, that gamer is going to have a boring, dumb, cookie-cutter play style.

You can also expect the same results of gamers using the following characters:

Are you trying to troll or something? Seriously. Only 2 of your 9 posts aren't bashing something.

That said, replicating the best possible play styles is not a bad thing. It's actually the best thing you can do if you want to get better. It's not like you won't make it your own in some way if you manage to "copy" it.

 

[IrrationalX]

I had this experience the other night against a Dedede who literally used forward smash about 50-75% of the time. It was pretty funny to see; it was the most head strong thing I've seen.

 

[Fancykong]

As a Wii Fit user, I tend to use projectiles, physical moves and my spikes to get the edge over players. Of course, online opponents ignore the other two parts and assume that they lost because of projectiles only, which makes them "counterpick (in quotes because they stink with them)" with any reflector/pocket/absorber character. Then they spam it. Ugh.

But this actually helps my matchup experience since it makes me have to read my opponent better. And it always feels good to KO the scrub with a projectile when they spent the whole match reflecting.

 

[Infinite901]

I lost to a Falco player who literally just camped me out and shieldgrabbed/shield->d-smash/spot dodge->d-smash anytime I got close. Friggin' ridiculous.

 

[Dokokashira]

I'm a learning Dr. Mario user, and a Marth secondary. I tend to have huge problems against characters with massive power and reach like Bowser, Donkey Kong, and Ike. I always get frustrated with myself after I lose to these characters. >_< I place my losses on my rather poor reaction time and majorly aggressive (and unhoned) playstyle... There's so many times where someone is standing there charging a forward smash, and I make some convoluted plan to get in the most amazing punish ever, but I end up running towards them like an idiot and get hit on the last second.

 

[ninrok]

Although it's probably not the case, a psychological thing I'd like to share is:

When you're getting beat out by beginner tactics, chances are, you're playing too smart against that person. By that I mean, you're over-thinking your opponent's strategy.


In a higher level of play, a mental game like this may happen:

You: I'm going to meet this player in the air and keep them off the ground.....but if I do that, they may air dodge, so I'll do an empty jump, land and usmash to punish that dodge. In short, I'm going to set him up.
Opponent: He's been attacking twice in a row. He may do it again, so I'll dodge this time.

*players meet up. You empty jump, opponent air dodges for nothing and you punish accordingly*


In other situations, that may have played out like this:

You: I'm going to meet this player in the air and keep them off the ground.....but if I do that, they may air dodge, so I'll do an empty jump, land and usmash to punish that dodge. In short, I'm going to set him up.
Opponent: Derp, I'm just gonna attack when we get close.

*players meet up. You empty jump, opponent swings their fist. You jumped right into that for free*

This explains it pretty succinctly.

It's almost 99% a mental thing.

OP, what you're experiencing is that you're overthinking the situation. When they're doing something that simply, you have to recognize it and not overthink the situation. Thing is, that applies to high-level play at times too. If something is working, sometimes players will change up their strategy for no reason other than thinking "this won't work anymore, [opponent] is too smart for that". Then they find out after losing, "...that would have worked."

It can be hard to make that sort of mental adjustment, especially when your brain is constantly telling you "that cannot work, we cannot let that work, we MUST punish this somehow!!"

Not saying that from a position on a high horse or anything - I actually have the same problem and have had it since playing fighting games forever lol. I can think at a high level most times, but I get trolled or set into predictable patterns out of frustration really, REALLY easily. Input delay online does not help at all.

Right now, I've actually started to actively play against "trollish" players when I run into them for at least a couple rounds, so I can learn how to change my mentality and not overthink so much. Playing a mix of players, I feel, helps you improve in general (you never know when you'll run into that type of player in a larger tourney). If something like roll x 10 is working, don't beat yourself up over it. Rather, the best thing to do is ask yourself, "why is this working, and what am I doing to let it keep working".

 

[Roys0urBoy]

Everybody i end up fighting against in for glory is either A) Captain Falcon B) Sheik doing the same "combo" (back air back air back air, repeat) or C) Spamus. Its terrible that most people online are like this, rather then mostly with skill, they resort to the doing the same things over and over.

 

[Dr. Bread]

Dont worry, this is a combination of wi-fi and sometimes nerves. This stuff only works in a laggy environment. Some people are good enough to punish it on wi-fi but dont worry too much if youre not.

 

[Jerodak]

@ Kirby Phelps (PK) No, you don't suck. What you are describing is actually a pretty serious problem among competitive players, especially those who are at the intermediate level. As @ Nexin so aptly put it, you probably just don't remember how to properly fight scrubs. It may sound like it's not a skill that you'd need to excel as a competitive player but really there is probably nothing worse than going to a tournament and getting knocked into losers, or even worse, out of the tournament, because you happened to run up against some crazy player that does all kinds of weird stuff that they "shouldn't" be doing. Also, I even know a few otherwise really good players who have this issue, so it can happen at various levels but really it's usually just a natural part of transitioning through the intermediate phase of the game. There are even videos on this topic, here is one that I thought was especially good, and I've pretty much been piggy backing off of what was said in it, so check it out when you get the chance. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8J9QqHcTX5U

All that aside, keep working at it, and you'll eventually get it down. However, for specific advice vs Roll-happy FG samus, I find that Samus actually has one of the easier rolls to punish in the game, as long as you don't try to use traditional roll punishes, this is because Samus's roll has a lot of invincibility frames, but as a trade-off it lasts for a while as well, so you have more time to decide what to do about it. Usually, getting near the range where the player feel comfortable rolling, then just carefully waiting for the roll is enough to get some easy punishes. Of course, be prepared to switch it up if they happen to start adapting to you, and look out for the grab.

 

[Nexin]

The moment I saw that link @ J Jerodak posted, I knew that the video was Lessons from Gandhi. My first post was pretty much just a summarization of that video.

Ultrachentv, the channel that posted that video, has a lot of really good videos explaining certain aspects of fighting games at every level of play, so I'd definitely recommend checking out their videos if there is ever something that you are struggling with.

 

[pbjezgoud]

I'm a learning Dr. Mario user, and a Marth secondary. I tend to have huge problems against characters with massive power and reach like Bowser, Donkey Kong, and Ike. I always get frustrated with myself after I lose to these characters. >_< I place my losses on my rather poor reaction time and majorly aggressive (and unhoned) playstyle... There's so many times where someone is standing there charging a forward smash, and I make some convoluted plan to get in the most amazing punish ever, but I end up running towards them like an idiot and get hit on the last second.

Dr. Mario main...I salute you.

 

[Tito Maas]

I'm a learning Dr. Mario user, and a Marth secondary. I tend to have huge problems against characters with massive power and reach like Bowser, Donkey Kong, and Ike. I always get frustrated with myself after I lose to these characters. >_< I place my losses on my rather poor reaction time and majorly aggressive (and unhoned) playstyle... There's so many times where someone is standing there charging a forward smash, and I make some convoluted plan to get in the most amazing punish ever, but I end up running towards them like an idiot and get hit on the last second.

lmao yeah I used to do that all the time with Little Mac. Me and my friends call it a "self-body" hahaha

 

[blackghost]

I think some characters fight scrub better than others Rosalina, little mac, and falcon destroy scrubs. charcters that require true reads ganon comes to mind is really bad against scrubby players.