Looking back, are you disappointed that certain characters didn't take (more) from their recent games (e.g. Odyssey, BotW, Samus Returns)?

[Quillion]

Remember back in the speculation phase when it appeared that everyone wanted Mario to have Cappy or Link to have a full rework with breakable weapons and Champion abilities? (Exhibit A, Exhibit B)

Now that the speculation phase is long behind us, talk of that has died down. But did you still wish that Mario had his Cappy Toss, Link had more BotW-based abilities beyond the remote bomb and double arrow, Samus to have her Melee Counter, etc.? They did manage to give recent stuff to characters like Luigi, who has his upcoming new Poltergust as a grab, but it appears that the more "main" characters didn't get much beyond some aesthetics.

(I still think Link was changed too much and they should have at least had Classic Link as an echo, but we've already talked about that).

 

[Xelrog]

Recent games, no. In fact I'm always hesitant with recent games because perspective is necessary to not make the characters incredibly dated (which I think BOTW Link now is, unless the next Zelda game is a straight up BOTW sequel). Honestly I think Mario became dated when they gave him FLUDD.

The two characters whose movepool I don't feel draws from enough of their games are Wario and Sonic. I was very disappointed when Wario was revealed and he was more of a joke character than the Herculean brawler he was in Wario Land/World. Sonic--not just the character, but every bit of Sonic representation in Brawl--felt like Nintendo just played Sonic 1 for a few minutes and made everything based off of that. Characters randomly summoning objects is a lazy decision in move design and Sonic was one of the earliest offenders with his spring, but most of all I'm disappointed that he doesn't have his bounce from Sonic 3/Sonic Adventure 2. It would be a cool/fluid mobility option, but instead he has... two spin dashes? Really?

Had I designed him, it would have gone something like:

B - Bounce
Side B - Homing attack
Down B - Spin Dash
Up B - Tails

...and toss in the elemental shields from Sonic 3 for some of his aerials, for good measure.

 

[Quillion]

Recent games, no. In fact I'm always hesitant with recent games because perspective is necessary to not make the characters incredibly dated (which I think BOTW Link now is, unless the next Zelda game is a straight up BOTW sequel). Honestly I think Mario became dated when they gave him FLUDD.

Can't really disagree there. It's odd that Mario and Link feel less "general" in their movesets than common faithfulness crowd whipping boys like Ganondorf or Donkey Kong.

If they were going to make Mario more generalized, I still think Mario should lose FLUDD and put the Ground Pound in its place. He should get the Goomba Stomp for his Dair (while Doc maybe gets something different). Mario Tornado and Cape should be combined as "Spin", as it did make it into the NSMB series as a non-attack.

Vanilla Link should still be OoT/TP Link, but they should add different Links with more varied moves.

The two characters whose movepool I don't feel draws from enough of their games are Wario and Sonic. I was very disappointed when Wario was revealed and he was more of a joke character than the Herculean brawler he was in Wario Land/World.

Well, Ultimate managed to compromise by putting his Shoulder Bash as his Dash Attack, where it fits far better than it did as an F-Smash. I'm not sure he needs anything else now.

Sonic--not just the character, but every bit of Sonic representation in Brawl--felt like Nintendo just played Sonic 1 for a few minutes and made everything based off of that. Characters randomly summoning objects is a lazy decision in move design and Sonic was one of the earliest offenders with his spring, but most of all I'm disappointed that he doesn't have his bounce from Sonic 3/Sonic Adventure 2. It would be a cool/fluid mobility option, but instead he has... two spin dashes? Really?

Had I designed him, it would have gone something like:

B - Bounce
Side B - Homing attack
Down B - Spin Dash
Up B - Tails

...and toss in the elemental shields from Sonic 3 for some of his aerials, for good measure.

And kill Tails as a potential additional Sonic character? How about no.

Anyway, I think a good Sonic moveset circa Brawl would have been Light Speed Dash for Side-B. Bounce would be better as a dair. Spring is fine since it's more iconic than anything else short of summoning Tails, which would be a bad idea as stated.

But yeah, two Spin Dashes is utter laziness, differences between the two be damned.

 

[Necro'lic]

Only if they can bring something new to the table in terms of options and aesthetics for the character. Or uniqueness. For example, Link having breakable weapons from BOTW would fall too much into Robin's Levin's and Tome mechanics, so it would be not unique.

Usually when I go by my rework threads to give more canonical references, it's accompanied by more advanced movesets and moves. An example is that Ganondorf rework you weren't so happy with I did involving dual swords and having his smash attacks be dual purpose attacks, and his special moves, especially Dead Man's Volley, the quintessential missing 'dorf reference, having multiple uses, such as recovery as well as reflection as well as combo starter, etc.

Basically, lack of canon can be disappointing, especially if they can be translated as a more fun and unique take on fighting in Smash.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I am disappointed that Samus still has her Other M design despite Samus Returns.

 

[Quillion]

Only if they can bring something new to the table in terms of options and aesthetics for the character. Or uniqueness. For example, Link having breakable weapons from BOTW would fall too much into Robin's Levin's and Tome mechanics, so it would be not unique.

Usually when I go by my rework threads to give more canonical references, it's accompanied by more advanced movesets and moves. An example is that Ganondorf rework you weren't so happy with I did involving dual swords and having his smash attacks be dual purpose attacks, and his special moves, especially Dead Man's Volley, the quintessential missing 'dorf reference, having multiple uses, such as recovery as well as reflection as well as combo starter, etc.

Basically, lack of canon can be disappointing, especially if they can be translated as a more fun and unique take on fighting in Smash.

We have to keep in mind, though, that the best changes are the ones that keep an archetype intact instead of radically changing it. Wario getting his Dash Attack back was a good thing. DK getting his roll was a good thing.

I'm unhappy with Link, Ganon, and Bowser being changed, but I acknowledge that's subjective and I'm a bit of an extremist. I suppose if they can change Pit's specials in 4, they can rework Ganondorf's Wizkick to use his trident instead and swap out Warlock Punch for an energy ball, however much I would miss it.

 

[Gyrom8]

I think they could have updated Mario's final smash: it's a final smash so it's not like it'd make any difference to his competitive viability

I was thinking of having him throw Cappy off the side of the screen and have the captured t-rex jump on the stage, swing its tail for high knockback, then disappear.

Admittedly this could 'date' Mario somewhat as it's something that's specific to one game (so far). However, his current final smash is at the other extreme: it's so bland in how general it is ("Mario chucking fire") and it isn't really based on anything specific at all.

 

[Necro'lic]

We have to keep in mind, though, that the best changes are the ones that keep an archetype intact instead of radically changing it. Wario getting his Dash Attack back was a good thing. DK getting his roll was a good thing.

Archetypes radically changing aren't all THAT bad, though they aren't desirable. Rather, having a character add more to their gameplan within their archetype is better, and I feel my Ganondorf rework does this fine, since he would still be able to be played like a slow juggernaut type character with a hard time getting into position, just with a lot more potential combos and strings when he does get there, thus adding to his repertoire without really removing much conceptually (besides Wizkick, but my rendition of Dead Man's Volley does do gap closing fine enough).

An example actually in the game is Link and his Remote Bomb Rune being able to be used like a regular bomb in every way other than having multiple bombs at once. However, he gains a lot more trapping potential, edgeguarding, and fun bomb/arrow relationships to work with in the process, which overall adds to his archetype without taking much away.

EDIT: And for another one of my rework ideas for Mario, replacing Cape with Cappy Throw, which you can see here. You might find it dated, but I think it's a great tool to have as it would bolster Mario's ability to combo and string together moves as well as help with his recovery and edgeguarding. It is a multipurpose move and all of it is canonically accurate. It goes to show you that you shouldn't just see canonicity as a simply a limitation, because it will sometimes give a great insight to an extra tool to give a character.

 

[TheTrueBrawler]

I mind the lack of moveset changes some of them had potential to declone some of the clones almost entirely. It kills me inside that Mario doesn't have a Cappy Bounce type move for his Up Special since it still shares a lot with that of Doctor Mario. Likewise, I didn't enjoy it either when Mario's Spin Attack from Mario Galaxy went completely ignored. Side Special was a good spot for something like that since Cape isn't anywhere close to true to the original game, but if not a special, it could have at the very least been one of his aerials.

Link isn't exempt from this either. Since Young Link and Toon Link have effectively replaced him since the GameCube era, Nintendo absolutely should have taken some creative liberties in the redesign to make this character at least decent again other than just Remote Bombs. There was so much more content that could have been used. He has Champion Powers that could have replaced some specials. Revali's Gale for Up Special? Urbosa's Fury for Side Special? Hey, maybe Daruk's Protection could be the visual effects for his shield.

I'm just a bit upset that all these new games came out and nothing was done to the originals to declone them from their clone counterparts.

 

[Yung Nikey]

I like what they did with Link, making subtle but very drastic changes (grab/detonate bomb) to seperate him from YL and TL. I do wish they did a bit more with Mario though, like said above they couldv'e definitely done something with cappy to further seperate himself from luigi and more so doc.

 

[Crystanium]

I am disappointed that Samus still has her Other M design despite Samus Returns.

To be fair, MSR came out in September 2018. Still, I would have liked for Samus to be capable of countering. That was in MOM, so it wasn't a new concept by the time MSR showed up. I also don't think it'd need to be a special or a smash attack. My original concept was L/R to perfect shield, and then A to perform the counter. Interestingly, the parry concept was made known by the SSBU 2018 invitational. It'd be nice if Samus received unique abilities.

Samus' ability to charge in the air was long overdo, and she's not the only one who can do it. Now, if Samus could angle her Charge Shot like R.O.B., I feel she wouldn't be unique there because characters like Mewtwo and Lucario would probably also receive the same treatment. It's ridiculous that Samus cannot shoot diagonally in spite of the fact that she showed such ability as early as 1994 in Super Metroid.

I'd like for Samus to shoot diagonally and counter, perhaps with her u-tilt. Buff her kill throws since she threw Vorash and because she flicked her wrist in Metroid Prime 3: Corruption to throw a massive gear in SkyTown, Elysia. Yet, characters who aren't known to have superhuman strength like Greninja, Toon Link, Villager, or Olimar easily have some of the best kill throws.

 

[Xelrog]

Cappy won't be in the next Mario game. Ergo, I'm very happy he was not shoehorned awkwardly into Mario's moveset.

As a rule, a move/item should be in at least two games, minimum, to be iconic--preferably older games. If it's from the newest one it just feels shoved in for advertising purposes, which caused a lot of backlash in PS All-Stars as an example.

 

[BonafideFella]

Cappy could and would be the next F.L.U.D.D. if added to Mario's moveset and you can't convince me otherwise.

 

[Arthur97]

Only with regards to clones (including Ganondorf, Young Link, and maybe Toon Link) and Wario. If there's nothing inherently wrong with the moveset, don't change it radically.

Recent games, no. In fact I'm always hesitant with recent games because perspective is necessary to not make the characters incredibly dated (which I think BOTW Link now is, unless the next Zelda game is a straight up BOTW sequel). Honestly I think Mario became dated when they gave him FLUDD.

The two characters whose movepool I don't feel draws from enough of their games are Wario and Sonic. I was very disappointed when Wario was revealed and he was more of a joke character than the Herculean brawler he was in Wario Land/World. Sonic--not just the character, but every bit of Sonic representation in Brawl--felt like Nintendo just played Sonic 1 for a few minutes and made everything based off of that. Characters randomly summoning objects is a lazy decision in move design and Sonic was one of the earliest offenders with his spring, but most of all I'm disappointed that he doesn't have his bounce from Sonic 3/Sonic Adventure 2. It would be a cool/fluid mobility option, but instead he has... two spin dashes? Really?

Had I designed him, it would have gone something like:

B - Bounce
Side B - Homing attack
Down B - Spin Dash
Up B - Tails

...and toss in the elemental shields from Sonic 3 for some of his aerials, for good measure.

So spawning random items is bad, but spawning entire characters is fine?

 

[CardiganBoy]

I'm okay with most characters in Ultimate but there are 3 the bother me: Samus, Toon Link and Young Link.

Young Link is only on the aesthetic side, they could have given him his Majora's Mask equipment and Fierce Deity as his FS, would have been cool for him to represent two games more directly, not just OoT.

Toon Link represents such missed potential to at least make his moveset less redundant, i imagine him using the Grappling Hook, Skull Hammer as down smash, Deku Leaf, and Ballad of Gales as FS.

And lastly Samus whose moveset feels outdated and boring at this point, she should be using her arm cannon more like the Mii Gunner does, is funny that a character who is supposed to be an avatar plays more unique than Samus, and i find the Gunners moveset more enyojable for that reason, moves like down smash, up air, up tilt, nair, etc. fit Samus yet won't change her plays style so much.

Characters like Mario and Link are good as they are because for example Cappy would be so hard to inplement it's not like Kirby's copy ability, and Link's rune bombs, double arrows and Ancient Arrow are nice references to BotW and add something fresh to the character.

 

[Crystanium]

CardiganBoy
I'm content with Samus' moveset for the most part. I love her n-air and u-air. I think u-tilt could be changed to Melee Counter. It could still reach the ground and work its way up. While u-tilt can be used to kill opponents who hang on the ledge too long or regrab, Melee Counter could work just about the same, except it would stage spike. I just think Samus' jab 1 needs to be fixed, tilts need to be faster with fewer FAF, possibly change u-smash to Beam Burst and still work in the same arcing motion as Cover Fire, and perhaps give her two kinds of grabs, one where grabbing close has her use her left hand to grab, while grabbing far has her use Grapple Beam.

 

[LightKnight]

I was definitely expecting and hoping for more changes to some of the older cast like Mario, Luigi, Link, and Samus like you said.

Out of those, Link and Luigi were the ones to get any significant changes but still not as much as I had imagined. That said, I'm perfectly fine with how Link turned out as his new bomb is just what I needed to better utilize the character compared to his past bombs. Unfortunately he's still much like the other links who also could have gotten a few more changes too.
Luigi's grab change is cool but I was kinda hoping for a change to the majority of his specials. For example, re-skinning his fireballs as electric-balls that do slightly more stun. Maybe even act more like Pikachu's. I think I even thought of him using a soccer ball that he could kick to replace one of his specials, similar to Wii Fit's move.
For Mario I never care for his side and down special so I was hoping they'd replace those while incorporating Cappy into at least one of his specials and possibly his grab. Though, I know some people absolutely love his cape and F.L.U.D.D.

All of that said, I'm fairly satisfied with the cast as a whole and keeping characters moves relatively the same helps to not alienate people from characters they like playing.

 

[Xelrog]

So spawning random items is bad, but spawning entire characters is fine?

Tails has legs. A wrestling rope doesn't.

Yes, it makes infinitely more sense for a person to arrive with an assist than for architecture to poof into existence.

 

[Arthur97]

Tails has legs. A wrestling rope doesn't.

Yes, it makes infinitely more sense for a person to arrive with an assist than for architecture to poof into existence.

Except they will just appear just like the items. Having legs doesn't change that. Rush has legs but he just appears (though they at least gave him an exit animation). By this logic, Link shouldn't be able to use boomerangs, Duck Hunt gets no cans or clay pigeons. Wario loses the bike. Etc.

 

[Quillion]

As a rule, a move/item should be in at least two games, minimum, to be iconic--preferably older games. If it's from the newest one it just feels shoved in for advertising purposes, which caused a lot of backlash in PS All-Stars as an example.

This is why the Ground Pound and Goomba Stomp would better serve Mario's moveset over Cappy or FLUDD.

Except they will just appear just like the items. Having legs doesn't change that. Rush has legs but he just appears (though they at least gave him an exit animation). By this logic, Link shouldn't be able to use boomerangs, Duck Hunt gets no cans or clay pigeons. Wario loses the bike. Etc.

He is talking about stage architecture, not items that characters regularly pull out.

Anyway, I personally don't mind either way. The spring is more iconic than any other alternative like the Thunder Shield jump or Blue Tornado.

But Tails does not deserve to languish as an Up B. Third party franchises can get more than one character now, so that would be a waste.

 

[Arthur97]

This is why the Ground Pound and Goomba Stomp would better serve Mario's moveset over Cappy or FLUDD.



He is talking about stage architecture, not items that characters regularly pull out.

Anyway, I personally don't mind either way. The spring is more iconic than any other alternative like the Thunder Shield jump or Blue Tornado.

But Tails does not deserve to languish as an Up B. Third party franchises can get more than one character now, so that would be a waste.

In what way is he talking about stage architecture?

 

[Quillion]

In what way is he talking about stage architecture?

Well, he did say this:

Yes, it makes infinitely more sense for a person to arrive with an assist than for architecture to poof into existence.

It did bother me back in Brawl, but now I realize the spring is more iconic than any other alternative.

I'm guessing he believes that items that characters do pull out like Link's boomerang make sense, but Sonic never pulls out a spring in any game.

 

[Arthur97]

Well, he did say this:



It did bother me back in Brawl, but now I realize the spring is more iconic than any other alternative.

I'm guessing he believes that items that characters do pull out like Link's boomerang make sense, but Sonic never pulls out a spring in any game.

But it's not stage architecture. How could you jump to that conclusion?

Ice Climbers never pull out icicles either.

Besides, the spring is about as iconic as any means for Sonic to get lift. It works, and the fact it could stay on the ground on be used made it uinque in its debut.

 

[Xelrog]

He doesn't pull it out and drop it. It just magical poof appears below him. Same for Incineroar's wrestling rope, which makes even less sense when it happens in midair. It's lazy and stupid-looking.

 

[TheDuke54]

There's no doubt going to be another Smash sometime in the future. It might not be made by Sakurai, but they'll most likely add to the roster for new games that didn't make the cut this time. I'd rather see the oldies that earned their time and right to be represented in the roster or cameo'd then newbies. Botw Link and Splatoon are enough from the modern new age for me.

 

[Arthur97]

He doesn't pull it out and drop it. It just magical poof appears below him. Same for Incineroar's wrestling rope, which makes even less sense when it happens in midair. It's lazy and stupid-looking.

What about Snake's? He was in development first so he's the one you should direct your ire at anyway. And, again, what about Duck Hunt? Ness' Yo-Yo? Ganondorf's sword? Megavitamins? Pit's Upperdash Arm? Gordos?

 

[TheDuke54]

I get what he is saying though. Incineroar's wrestling rope just appears whereas the other fighters have their weapons come out of them rather then away from them and somewhere else.

 

[Necro'lic]

How did this get derailed into hammerspace based moves being bad when there are WAY too many examples in the game to care?

 

[Xelrog]

I get what he is saying though. Incineroar's wrestling rope just appears whereas the other fighters have their weapons come out of them rather then away from them and somewhere else.

He gets it.

What about Snake's?

You don't seem to.

 

[CardiganBoy]

CardiganBoy
I'm content with Samus' moveset for the most part. I love her n-air and u-air. I think u-tilt could be changed to Melee Counter. It could still reach the ground and work its way up. While u-tilt can be used to kill opponents who hang on the ledge too long or regrab, Melee Counter could work just about the same, except it would stage spike. I just think Samus' jab 1 needs to be fixed, tilts need to be faster with fewer FAF, possibly change u-smash to Beam Burst and still work in the same arcing motion as Cover Fire, and perhaps give her two kinds of grabs, one where grabbing close has her use her left hand to grab, while grabbing far has her use Grapple Beam.

I find the drill kick to be a remnant of Smash 64 of giving everyone a drill kick, while hers is upwards but a move like that fits better a ninja type character like Sheik, and her down smash has her doing a lame double kick instead of her cannon which for some reason she uses as a wake up attack, lastly i'd change her jab so the second attack shoots and actually connects instead of wacking the opponent as if its malfunctioning, she needs a Smash4 Bowser type of overhaul imo.

 

[Crystanium]

I find the drill kick to be a remnant of Smash 64 of giving everyone a drill kick, while hers is upwards but a move like that fits better a ninja type character like Sheik, and her down smash has her doing a lame double kick instead of her cannon which for some reason she uses as a wake up attack, lastly i'd change her jab so the second attack shoots and actually connects instead of wacking the opponent as if its malfunctioning, she needs a Smash4 Bowser type of overhaul imo.

Well, then u-air could be like ZSS'. Otherwise, I prefer the ladder combo. I agree d-smash should be like Mii Gunner's. I feel like Mii Gunner is better, even though it is supposed to be a generic brand of a character like Samus. I wouldn't mind Samus' jab being like a one-two punch instead of knocking her opponent over the head.

 

[Arthur97]

He gets it.


You don't seem to.

Forget the rope, this started with you complaining about Sonic's spring despite it being just another hammerspace item.

 

[Xelrog]

Forget the rope, this started with you complaining about Sonic's spring despite it being just another hammerspace item.

He doesn't pull it out and drop it below him. It just appears. That's why it's weird.

 

[Arthur97]

He doesn't pull it out and drop it below him. It just appears. That's why it's weird.

Again, he's not the only one who just has stuff appear. Care to explain where Peach's forward smash weapons come from? Why is it okay to just appear so long as they're holding it? Also, Duck Hunt can summon the gunmen which just appear.

You may call the spring lazy, but I call it his most iconic means of extra vertical lift. Same with Rush.

 

[Xelrog]

Duck Hunt's summons are also strange-looking and come off as lazily-designed. I'm not crazy about Rush but at least in Mega Man canon they have teleportation technology. That's how Rush actually appears in the games.

If you don't think it's okay if a character's holding it, then we've reached an impasse and will just have to agree to disagree. I think it makes a big difference if the character physically pulls it out from somewhere versus materializing out of thin air separate from the character.

 

[Quillion]

Personally, I think a better Side-B for Incineroar would have been Throat Chop. They should have made it a dash move like Alolan Whip is now, and then when it connects, it's a crumple move like Focus Attack and Skewer. Throat Chop is at least a canon move heavily associated with Incineroar, while Alolan Whip isn't based on anything rather than his wrestler aesthetic.

Anyway, I do think they should go for older moves not represented in Smash rather than taking from newer games. I still think Goomba Stomp d-air and Ground Pound down-B would be far more effective in representing Mario than any of the one-shot abilities like FLUDD. Yes, this even applies Ganondorf; even though all of his swords are wildly different, his consistent use of some type of sword is well-established, though I would miss the brawling.

The three Links should be different, though. They should be, if anything, "normals-only semi-echoes", where they share their normals but have different specials. And yes, this means having four Links: OoT/TP Link as the vanilla Link, BotW Link having a mix of Rune and Champion abilities, Young Link having masked abilities, and Toon Link having unique tools like Deku Leaf, Grappling Hook, and Skull Hammer. Differences in attack speed and movement be damned, they need to feel less pointless.

 

[Arthur97]

The Links could at least draw from their specific games for some normals. At least the specialized ones. Like, I would love for Toon Link's down air to be his counter helm splitter. Also, they could make Young Link's jab actually match one of the actual strings from OoT and MM. Unfortunately, Young Link has too little to pull from as far as sword attacks and Toon Link's mostly aren't that applicable.

I am against the grappling hook though. At least as his grab. Maybe as a fishing rod like attack.

 

[Quillion]

The Links could at least draw from their specific games for some normals. At least the specialized ones. Like, I would love for Toon Link's down air to be his counter helm splitter. Also, they could make Young Link's jab actually match one of the actual strings from OoT and MM. Unfortunately, Young Link has too little to pull from as far as sword attacks and Toon Link's mostly aren't that applicable.

I am against the grappling hook though. At least as his grab. Maybe as a fishing rod like attack.

Oh, definitely. BotW Link should pull out a Claymore and a Spear (probably Knight's in both cases) for some of his normals, like using the Claymore for his D-Smash and U-Smashes and the Spear for his F-tilt and F-air. Helm Splitter would be a better meteor for Toon Link, and the Back Slice could work as a b-air.

And why wouldn't the grappling hook work as a grab? Is the hookshot so iconic that every Link but BotW Link needs to have it?

 

[Arthur97]

Oh, definitely. BotW Link should pull out a Claymore and a Spear (probably Knight's in both cases) for some of his normals, like using the Claymore for his D-Smash and U-Smashes and the Spear for his F-tilt and F-air. Helm Splitter would be a better meteor for Toon Link, and the Back Slice could work as a b-air.

And why wouldn't the grappling hook work as a grab? Is the hookshot so iconic that every Link but BotW Link needs to have it?

No, no, no. "Link" should not be BotW Link. He should stay mostly the same. No claymores or spears. Those aren't "Link." If any Zelda fighter should use a spear, it should be Ganondorf using a trident. If they wanted him to be a specialty Link, he should have been a separate one and not "Link."

For one, I simply don't like it. Two, it has quite the wind up which would likely make it slower. And, yes, the hookshot/clawshot is much more notable than the grabbling hook as they've been in a ton of games including most 3D Zeldas. Including Wind Waker. Besides, instead of just giving him a slower grab, they could give him a command grab by making it a special.

 

[Quillion]

No, no, no. "Link" should not be BotW Link. He should stay mostly the same. No claymores or spears. Those aren't "Link." If any Zelda fighter should use a spear, it should be Ganondorf using a trident. If they wanted him to be a specialty Link, he should have been a separate one and not "Link."

I feel like we have the same idea but we want it to be done in different ways. I agree that the "vanilla" Link shouldn't have been BotW Link; that's why I said OoT/TP Link needs to be the "vanilla" Link with the usual Link moveset, while Wild Link should have mostly the same normals but a few attacks using a claymore or spear.

Do you want BotW Link to be the vanilla Link? Because I don't think that idea really worked out for Ultimate. Either people would complain that BotW Link is left-handed and has the hookshot and regular bombs, or people would complain that Link's moveset is too different, so they just compromised.

For one, I simply don't like it. Two, it has quite the wind up which would likely make it slower. And, yes, the hookshot/clawshot is much more notable than the grabbling hook as they've been in a ton of games including most 3D Zeldas. Including Wind Waker. Besides, instead of just giving him a slower grab, they could give him a command grab by making it a special.

I could see it having the same frame data as Luigi's Poltergust grab, though. Just cut out the twirl before throwing and it could work.

I guess following your logic, a nice specialset for Toon Link would be this:

• Neutral-B: Deku Gust: Charge move that shoots a windbox. Leaf's hitbox does minor damage. Also indirectly references Korok Leaf from BotW.
• Side-B: Grappling Hook: Works like Isabelle's fishing rod and can tether.
• Up-B: Deku Gale: A whirlwind appears out of nowhere and lifts Link while holding the Deku Leaf. Works like Peach's Up-B.
• Down-B: Skull Hammer: Slams Skull Hammer in the ground and releases a shockwave. Shockwave pops opponent in the air, while hammer hitbox breaks shields and buries. Meteors if aerial.

I personally would keep the neutral-B as Bow, since that is more recurring than any other Zelda item short of the sword. I see hookshot as a bit more disposable that the Grappling Hook can replace it as a grab.