lol omg my marth is better than yours!

firexemblemxpryde · Jun 29, 2007

Dead Sexy Vocab · Jun 29, 2007

Wow, that Fox is amazing. =P

Gimpyfish62 · Jun 29, 2007

your marth is better than my marth.

*hasn't watched anything yet*

the CRAB · Jun 29, 2007

i've only got two pieces of advice.

1: dont stop moving. ever.
2: learn to space. marth is all about spacing.

yea, that's it. have fun.

metroid1117 · Jun 29, 2007

the_CRAB is right; you should have shffl'd more FAirs so that Fox would have a harder time approaching you due to FAir's speed and range. Other than that, you did well (I watched only the first match >.>). You did a lot better near the end than you did in the beginning. When using Dolphin Slash, try using it out of a shield rather than a crouch cancel. Also, when you use Dancing Blade, remember that you'll lose the "floaty" jump if you use it too much, and that you can get it back simply by wavedashing or doing an empty short-hop. Good Marth other than that.

Brightside6382 · Jun 30, 2007

I would strongly advise against shffl'ing to many fairs against a Fox

. (Looks at above poster) Yes, the fair has great range but it still has lag even when L-cancelled. A fox properly spaced can easily get a free grab and you eat a free uair because of it. Marth takes precision, your not gonna win a match if you just spam fairs, uairs, fsmashes, RDS, falcon punches, etc.

Don't stop moving??? lol I believe thats more preference of play then anything. You don't gotta constantly be dash dancing, wd'ing, and shffl'ing around.

Emblem Lord · Jun 30, 2007

I only watched a few Fox matches.

Anyway, what's the problem? You are good. You died because you would either make silly mistakes or you miss easy grabs or small things like that. I think if you watch your own vids you'll catch the parts where you goofed up and then you can just improve from there.

You also went from playing smart to playing stupid alot. I dunno, I just noticed that about you when I watched your vids.

And you are very easy to gimp. Work on that.

firexemblemxpryde · Jun 30, 2007

mm thanks.
I used to shffl a lot of fairs, but I always got grabbed by Fox, and I did eat many a u-air for lunch. It doesn't work for me, because if I do a single fair, i'll get jabbed before I can actually pull it out (marth is floaty and you can't fastfall it right away). If I doublefair, I get grabbed almost all the time.

Question: if I nair, am I supposed to get grabbed? For example, if I shffl a nair towards fox, is there anyway I can get out without being grabbed? Of course I L-cancel. I find that some marth players do the whole nair- roll thing, but the idea of rolling with a fox beside me makes me quiver.

Yeah, I do make a lot of mistakes in that first match =P. The marth vs falco matches were played better, I think.

How do I -not- get gimped as easily? Marth's up+B has lag, so in the event that I make it on the stage, that fox just waited for me to land, shined me off, and repeated the onslaught. Am I supposed to crouchcancel the shine?

and when I'm on the edge and i'm trying to get back on the stage against fox, what do I do to get up? Most Foxes just sit there and wait. If I attack, i get shield grabbed to *****. if i do the jumping thing, marth's lag is just horrid. the simple getting up thing works sometimes, but if I'm over 100% it's still **** time for fox.

That leaves the option of ledgehopping an attack in hopes of hitting, or shieldstunning them far enough away. What attack is best in that situation?

Yeah i play stupid sometimes, and hell yes that fox is amazing xP

Brightside6382 · Jun 30, 2007

No one can really tell you what to do off the edge it's all situational and depends on what the Fox is doing and how he is reacting. Use everything Marth has, ariel off the edge, just stand back up, roll, wd back on, just jump on the edge over and over, etc.

knightpraetor · Jun 30, 2007

ya i'm curious now as to what i do when my opposing fox spaces out and i'm above 100..hmm, well first off a spaced aerial cannot be shieldgrabbed..you can also airdodge on if you feel the fox is too aggressive..but ya just mix it up...sometimes wavedash on into a grab or tilt..and sometimes space an aerial and keep moving...

i wonder if you can just fast fall and grab instead of ledgehopping an aerial if he's trying to shieldgrab you

on the one hand you have a lot of options..but then on the other fox is fast so ledgeplay can be dangerous..but even so..i don't recall myself getting shieldgrabbed by fox much from the ledge..if that's happening it's odd

anyways, time to go watch the videos

first off...random forward B was sexy..dunno if it was your best option..but definitely pretty hot to watch.

umm, you really need to JC grabs..it's painful watching you get punished constantly for the huge lag time on grabs

anyways on to the match..you started off a little slow and walked back instead of dashing (which is what i assume you meant to do when the fox opened) thereby letting him get a free combo

ok from the first life...a few basic mistakes...you should have called his di to the platform from the upthrow...you definitely had time to punish better.

the biggest thing i notice is you seemed jittery the first two lives......just relax..fox can combo you...focus on proper DI and surviving. When you are off the edge on the second life..you should be watching fox and timing the fair as you return..not swiping it in advance and getting hit...

in your Up +B struggles( i assume you lost your jump on the first shine)..i may be wrong about this so look at it more as a question/suggestion..as i'm definitely no pro.

..but you didn't have to up B immediately everytime...switch up where you're aiming for..yes fox can drop immediately and shine you during his invincibility...but if you're far enough down you can wait till his invincibility on the ledge disappears or you can still try to make it back on..regardless..if you always up b immediately..it gets very very predictable..also if the fox is dropping to shines without thinking..a fastfall to up + b will tag him and get you the edge. anyways, you're at a d/a there, but i still feel mixing it up has better odds ...

overall, your play's really good..just a few mistakes here and there..and the JC grabbing...zomg you would pay a lot less if you started JC your grabs

oh on the third life why use the up B as a combo breaker? maybe i'm just n00bish but i would have used a fair or over B...maybe it's faster? but even so if it misses you pay a lot

there's some random grabs that you just throw out of nowhere..i don't understand them..

but anyways the biggest thing is JCing..you probably would have won if not for that.

one thing i'll compliment is your platform game..it's nice

i'm going to disagree about the fox...that fox...needs work..a lot more than your marth does:\

bad followups to throws...foolish approaches from above marth....bad followup on platform...but then his wavelands and stuff are so good..he plays at a nice fast pace too..

i guess it's cause he's a falco main? but even so, he should be able to follow up throws better..and what's with the random aerials flung out at times...he's basically just putting maximum pressure on you...which is good..but he's messing it up

also if he tries to dair in front of you backwards, he can't JC grab you so just shield wait for a possible shine then grab

at :55 or whatever, you had better options than fsmash after the upthrow...especially since at that angle it wasn't going to tipper or drive him anywhere good.

in general the fox is overaggressive, and oftentimes would approach your marth even at a bad angle...make sure to punish him when he does..that one random grab at 1:25 wasted your chance to punish the fox for flying right into marth's zone. and he likes to shine a lot..so watch for places where he might try to run off and shine..it's a nice place to punish overshinehappy foxes...upair or upB as you go off the edge then..it's kinda hard to call..but if you get one it can often lead to fun

i'm tired of commenting so i'll end there..but one thing..since your DI seems pretty good from the vs falco vid i'm watching..you might try smash DIing the shine...marth is one of the few people who can get out of it i think since he's already pushed far enough that fox has to walk an extra step before grabbing or whatnot..so with smash DI you should be out of range. That said..it's kinda hard to do

someone good post about up B possibilities..in general fox will have to either A. do a firefox stall (in which case up b him during it if you can, or try for the main platform)
or B. try to time a shine without the invulnerability frames against marth's up+B..not sure if that's possible

firexemblemxpryde · Jul 1, 2007

thanks for all your input.
Since then I've already started JCing all my grabs.. so that's good. The reason I kept Up+Bing right away is because I was on battlefield... if i wait, I die under the stage =). and even if I do make it up on the stage after UP+B, he just hit me me off again - edgeguarding me like he would a sheik.

I agree with almost everything you said. I'm not quite sure what you meant by upair or upB as I go off the stage though.

about upthrow at "0:55" - Is it not better to fsmash in that situation (after the uthrow near the edge) ? On battlefield, edgeguarding fox is a bit easier... the alternative you have in mind is probably an uptilt. the only problem with that is that if he DI'd fully away, i would have missed, no? A fair would have hit.. but a midair jump would have had him back on the stage. I guess it's preference - edgeguard, or take the chance to kill him right there.

=P the fox took 17th at 0C2. He's a lot better than my marth =D

please continue the critique, guys! I'm liking this =D

Nihility · Jul 1, 2007

Needs moar counter.
I'll post a full critique when I get back from work MANUEL! <3333 Pawka

Miggz · Jul 1, 2007

firexemblemxpryde said:
mm thanks.
I used to shffl a lot of fairs, but I always got grabbed by Fox, and I did eat many a u-air for lunch. It doesn't work for me, because if I do a single fair, i'll get jabbed before I can actually pull it out (marth is floaty and you can't fastfall it right away). If I doublefair, I get grabbed almost all the time.

Question: if I nair, am I supposed to get grabbed? For example, if I shffl a nair towards fox, is there anyway I can get out without being grabbed? Of course I L-cancel. I find that some marth players do the whole nair- roll thing, but the idea of rolling with a fox beside me makes me quiver.

How do I -not- get gimped as easily? Marth's up+B has lag, so in the event that I make it on the stage, that fox just waited for me to land, shined me off, and repeated the onslaught. Am I supposed to crouchcancel the shine?

and when I'm on the edge and i'm trying to get back on the stage against fox, what do I do to get up? Most Foxes just sit there and wait. If I attack, i get shield grabbed to *****. if i do the jumping thing, marth's lag is just horrid. the simple getting up thing works sometimes, but if I'm over 100% it's still **** time for fox.

That leaves the option of ledgehopping an attack in hopes of hitting, or shieldstunning them far enough away. What attack is best in that situation?

Yeah i play stupid sometimes, and hell yes that fox is amazing xP

Question 1 : Well there are two reasons why you are getting grab after a aerial. One, you either messed up on an l-cancel, or your spacing is bad. Spacing with Marth is not that bad to get the hang of. I wasn't doing it a month ago, but now I can do it well and I love it. Just jump in with forward A, then pull back on the joystick, then for the second fair flick the C-Stick and l-cancel. If you do those two things, you shouldn't really be getting shield grabbed. So yeah...master spacing. Spacing also includes doing dtilt out of a dash dance, and Marth's jab after a cancelled aerial. ^^

Question 2: The same thing applies to the nair. You gota space it to avoid getting shield grabbed.

Question 3: Yeah I noticed those random Dolphin Slashes upon your recovery...ok don't do it...so much. I'm shocked that Fox didn't catch on. You did it so much on Fountain of Dreams.

Use the C-stick to do a fair to swipe Fox back and sweet spot the edge. That Up B at a off time will not work on smarter players. So yeah just swipe Fox with fair...that will make him think twice about coming after yah upon recovering. As for what to do when A Fox waits for you....mess with their timing. Like picture this "you are using your forward B to get back to the stage, Fox is waiting on the edge, then you use your second jump and usually people then do the Up B. Try this...after second jumping, keep falling a bit, do another forward B to stall a second then do your Up B. That should mess with the Fox's timing, Just switch it up, yah? =P

Good Marth though. I'd just say more wavedashing. ^^

kerploplesteesh · Jul 1, 2007

plain and simple (i watched the fox vids)

watch your spacing, too many times you got owned by that shine.

learn how to CG well into tippers, a fox player hates that

learn to predict movements more easily, prediction is key with all characters including marth

knightpraetor · Jul 2, 2007

meh..i never understand it...how can someone that good miss some basic things and autocomboes..meh i guess even great players make mistakes...that's why it's hard to critique off vids

there's also the possibility that he isn't trying fully if he's a lot better than you

"about upthrow at "0:55" - Is it not better to fsmash in that situation (after the uthrow near the edge) ? On battlefield, edgeguarding fox is a bit easier... the alternative you have in mind is probably an uptilt. the only problem with that is that if he DI'd fully away, i would have missed, no? A fair would have hit.. but a midair jump would have had him back on the stage. I guess it's preference - edgeguard, or take the chance to kill him right there. "

well, you weren't really near enough to the edge for me to prefer a fsmash...

not sure about the tilt..if he diied fully he would have had a chance to tech on teh platform probably regardless of fsmash or uptilt...fair was ok..but personally with the platforms i was thinking more of an upair off the ground...you can follow regardless of whether he chooses the platform above or the one you are on.

However, i'm not sure about that..i have a page of info somewhere on marth chaingrab data...not sure if that's too early to sweetspot the upair or not..but sweetspotted rising upair tends to combo well on platforms..

but anyways, i tend to mix it up betweeen fair, upair, and uptilt in situations like that...if the fsmash isn't likely to get him off the ledge i don't bother..though i guess i should really go test it out...whether the fsmash will hit on full di and tipper or if he gets to tech

meh i still find that odd...i mean i've only played a few good people..but even i don't miss throw combos with fox..it's just too easy..basic tech skill...i'm going to just believe his fingers slipped...as for his overaggressiveness...we'll just put it off as mind games and his own belief in his own reflexes..no doubt he would have air dodged your tilts if you'd try to swipe at him on that one direct approach

it's possible too that maybe i'm just not aggressive enough...i mean i rarely try for a direct charge through the air above marth..i mean with mad mind games fox is fast enough to pull off something crazy like that maybe;p

firexemblemxpryde · Jul 3, 2007

Lol. what kind of throw - airattack combos were you talking about?

often, he did uthrow-bair. He did this because most of the time, when he goes uthrow uair, I try to DI the first hit of the UAIR, and the second part misses. Since I can do this semi-consistently, it would make sense to bair, which might even hit me in the DI and kill me.

and he's SO aggressive lol he's a teenager with hormones (well that's what he told me). My fox against marths is a lot of aggressive too. nair nair nair upsmash. or something like that.

In the position of uthrow near the edge, it would make sense to utilt, I guess, because it would land him on the platform and I could tech chase something. On battlefield, the edgeguard is easier than usual though, so i probably just got greedy and wanted the edgeguard.

Is there anything to be said about my marth vs falco matches?
and that last video against genesis I played a lot better, i think.

Dark Sonic · Jul 3, 2007

You need to get more comfortable with off the stage edgeguarding. In a lot of your falco matches you threw him off the edge but you didn't follow him. You just sat there and let him get back on the stage. You could've easily chased him with a fair.

Also don't be afraid to hit them out of the startup of their up B. If they up B from above the ledge or even in line with it then you could easily just hit them out of it with a fair, f-tilt, f-smash, ect. You just need to work on your edgeguarding in general because you made it way to easy for him to get back.

firexemblemxpryde · Jul 3, 2007

Alrighty, I'll try m2k style edgeguarding =)

Also, what do you guys think about the dancing blade combo thing? Should it be used in higher levels of play? and.. when? I remember I used to love doing the down on the 3rd hit to make it a meteor, but that's plain implausible now.

knightpraetor · Jul 3, 2007

ya i'm not complaining about his comboing..my question is only why did he miss one aerial in the matchup..foxes never miss a free throw to aerial..or so i thought...nerves probably though..meh i would watch your falco vids..but honestly i'm lazy...if i have time to be reading these forums i have time to be practicing or to be studying:\

lol omg my marth is better than yours!

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