List of Advanced Techniques - Confirmed/Disconfirmed (With sources)

[Crispy4001]

I like the idea behind momentum air dodging because it does add a more realistic approach to the game. And because it actually does feel right.

And it is very fun to **** on the competitive players when they can't seem to take a game for what it is..

I am taking the game for what it is, a physics defying, completely unrealistic fighter. I like the added control because I'm not looking for something realistic, I'm looking for something functional.

Non-directional air dodge = less functional.

 

[Proven]

click the link on the first post under Fast-Jump. somebody just said the same thing 8 posts ago.

also, look what's supposed to happen when you do it with somebody who's on the ground.
http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/howto/technique/technique03.html

The only thing that bothers me about this is first, the already mentioned fact that we don't know how things in the game interact with Sonic's spin moves, and second, the fact that Wario is the really odd and expressive character who may just have an exaggerated animation for when he's idle and has a footstool jump done off him.

I am taking the game for what it is, a physics defying, completely unrealistic fighter. I like the added control because I'm not looking for something realistic, I'm looking for something functional.

Non-directional air dodge = less functional.

Technically, Non-directional air dodge = less unrealistic control. It's still functional if it does what it's been programmed to do.

 

[Proven]

Dammit, double post.

 

[Crispy4001]

Technically, Non-directional air dodge = less unrealistic control. It's still functional if it does what it's been programmed to do.

In real life and in many fighting games, I've never been able to jump while in the air either. They should ditch that too so there is less unrealistic control.

 

[Rx-]

The creators of Brawl were not by any means smash newbs. They were all decent to really good at Melee. They game is going to have plenty of deep and difficult techniques because Sakurai wants us to "play it for a really long time." There's no way the game designers would make some kiddy-a$$ game with poor low-level gameplay. I think everyone can relax until TOMMORROW when we will get detailed reports of many aspects of Brawl, as well as a few new possible strategys/tricks.

 

[Proven]

In real life and in many fighting games, I've never been able to jump while in the air either. They should ditch that too so there is less unrealistic control.

I'm not saying that less unrealistic control should be more or less preferred. All I'm saying is that technically, what you said before was wrong.

 

[Crispy4001]

I'm not saying that less unrealistic control should be more or less preferred. All I'm saying is that technically, what you said before was wrong.

No, it wasn't. Making things more realistic doesn't automatically equate to them being more functional. It's a videogame. It's a fighting game. It has cartoony Nintendo characters.

C'mon now. I'm fine with people arguing for the momentum air dodge because you can do this or that with it ... but a big **** no to those who insist that because it's more 'realistic' or 'looks more natural' means it must be a better fit for the gameplay.

 

[Proven]

First, I'll reiterate: I am making no statements towards whether or not things should be more or less realistic.

We are misunderstanding each other because of the vocabulary.

You are using the word "functional". For me, it is an adjective that means that something is doing what it is designed/made to do. Directional Air-dodging is functional in Melee. In Brawl, this new Air-Dodge is what is functional.

Before you said "Non-directional air dodge = less functional". That statement is only correct in the frame of Melee, not Brawl.

Now if you're saying we're losing control and/or options, then we become on the same page. Non-directional Air Dodge takes away control and options that were in Melee, but the way it has been implemented in Brawl offers new control and options as a trade-off.

All I'm saying that the Non-directional Air Dodge in Brawl has been programmed correctly from the videos we've seen, and is therefore functional.

I do not care whether or not it is more realistic. That is an argument to point at someone else actively arguing the opposite stance on that point.

Edit: Sorry, I'm pretty much arguing semantics at this point. As ShortFuse is saying below, I should go to bed.

If you want to know how I feel about Directional Air-Dodging, whether or not it is more realistic is the last thing on my mind and I didn't even realize it until someone mentioned it today in this very thread. All I care about are the things you're able to do with it, and I prefer this Momentum Air-Dodging in Brawl over the Directional Air-Dodging in Melee simply because you don't immediately go into the no-action blinking free-fall state (I need to look up what that's called again) and can actually keep doing stuff in the air rather than have to land and jump again everytime you need to dodge.

I agree with Sakurai's thinking that this opens up more aerial gameplay, as now you have an aerial defensive move that doesn't force you to touch the ground afterward, allows you to more safely dodge in the air while you're not over the stage, and now more gameplay can be moved away from the ground for more than a few seconds (at most) at a time.

Edit again: After just correcting two really major spelling errors, I realize that I really do need to go to bed.

 

[ShortFuse]

I think we all need a nap. No? Well I'm going to put on my headphones, listen to some In Rainbows and sleep. Tomorrow is a big day!

 

[FightingGameGuy]

@Proven
"Non-directional Air Dodge takes away control and options that were in Melee, but the way it has been implemented in Brawl offers new control and options as a trade-off"

You're not entirely accurate here, the non-directional dodging is not what will add new options, but the other feature, the ability to act after air dodging will do so. It would be wholly possible for there to be directional dodging and acting after the dodge, it would just be very awkward for the character to suddenly have momentum again.

I can't say which system (melee's or what we suspect the current(!) Brawl's demo to be) will better lend itself to interesting, advanced play, but it seems that the already lack luster ground game (in comparison to the SHFFL game for most characters) will be even worse in Brawl do to the removal of the spacing control which wavedashing offers, ceteris paribus.

 

[Magus420]

They should really have both by having an extra directional dodge that moves you like in melee being the 'smash' form of dodging, but still be unable to act out of that one like in Melee to balance it out with the normal dodge.

...hopefully they happen to do that to add onto what you can do instead of give/taking the available options =/

 

[choknater]

choknaterz wavedash theory:

Yoshi has had a double jump cancel ever since smash 64, reason being his double jump has downward trajectory right as it starts. If he can air dodge at the beginning of his double jump and still have that downward diagonal trajectory, then Yoshi can still have a wavedash even if everyone else doesn't lol. Too good.

If that holds true, then Peach, and perhaps Lucas (if his jump is similar to Ness) will have WD also.

Just a theory

 

[Magus420]

There's a video that shows Yoshi DJing into a f-air near the beginning of the jump and still going the full height of the DJ. It's on the castle stage iirc.

 

[choknater]

There's a video that shows Yoshi DJing into a f-air near the beginning of the jump and still going the full height of the DJ. It's on the castle stage iirc.

Ah I see, that would look weird o.o rising fair

 

[Zauron]

Ah I see, that would look weird o.o rising fair

Yeah it does look weird, but its there. That's why it seems DJC'ing has been removed for Yoshi players in Brawl.

 

[GTR!]

Sorry to ask a n00b question, but these were posted a couple days ago on a Short fuse thread taht got locked, and i was wonderin what they are?? sorry again for the question but could somoen tell me?


Weaving
Overshooting
Turtling
Throttling
Perfect-Block Countering
__________________

 

[ShortFuse]

Weaving is when you move and attack in an out of a opponent's defensive range. It makes them very uncomfortable and afraid to attack.

Overshooting is when you attack and land past the opponent, not giving them the chance to attack since they're backwards

Turtling is playing only defensively aiming for flaws in the opponent's offensives tactics by only blocking, rolling, dodging and shieldgrabbing

Throttling is gauging you play speed used for mind games. If you watch videos and sometimes don't understand why some people just get smacked by Marth's fAir in a slow air attack, that's because the player accustoms the opponent to fastfalls and switches it up with slow (and unexpected) aerials.

Perfect-Block Counter is when you shield at the percise moment/frome as an attack hits your shield. You'll have instant recovery and can retaliate with an attack immediately. The LVL9 CPU does it plenty of times. This may sound impossible for humans to do, but I assure it's not. I play Soul Calibur 2 competitively (and some of my Smash playing friends) and that game requires timing to counter attacks (and Soul Calibur 3 has perfect frame countering which is stronger) so I can Perfect-Block pretty well. Throttling is necessary to avoid it from happening to you.

choknaterz wavedash theory:

Yoshi has had a double jump cancel ever since smash 64, reason being his double jump has downward trajectory right as it starts. If he can air dodge at the beginning of his double jump and still have that downward diagonal trajectory, then Yoshi can still have a wavedash even if everyone else doesn't lol. Too good.

If that holds true, then Peach, and perhaps Lucas (if his jump is similar to Ness) will have WD also.

Just a theory

I beat you to it. Check out ShortFuse's (mine) MetaKnight WaveDash theory on the first post. It's the same thing but I go one step further. MetaKnight's glide allows him to do something similar to wavelanding when done against a platform. If that can be DJC into glide, then in theory, it'll be just like WaveDashing. Your theory is dependent on the air dodge which is no longer directional.

 

[Xenesis]

Perfect-Block Counter is when you shield at the percise moment/frome as an attack hits your shield. You'll have instant recovery and can retaliate with an attack immediately. The LVL9 CPU does it plenty of times. This may sound impossible for humans to do, but I assure it's not. I play Soul Calibur 2 competitively and that game requires timing to counter attacks so I can Perfect-Block pretty well. Throttling is necessary to avoid it from happening to you.

Or you could you know, call it Powershielding like the rest of us.

 

[ShortFuse]

Or you could you know, call it Powershielding like the rest of us.

=P Well, I don't know much of the terminology. Thanks

 

[Proven]

@Proven
"Non-directional Air Dodge takes away control and options that were in Melee, but the way it has been implemented in Brawl offers new control and options as a trade-off"

You're not entirely accurate here, the non-directional dodging is not what will add new options, but the other feature, the ability to act after air dodging will do so. It would be wholly possible for there to be directional dodging and acting after the dodge, it would just be very awkward for the character to suddenly have momentum again.

I can't say which system (melee's or what we suspect the current(!) Brawl's demo to be) will better lend itself to interesting, advanced play, but it seems that the already lack luster ground game (in comparison to the SHFFL game for most characters) will be even worse in Brawl do to the removal of the spacing control which wavedashing offers, ceteris paribus.

Bleh, what I meant is that how it was implemented allows new options. Yeah, it doesn't do it by itself, but it's what it now allows to be done that makes it cool for me.

Using ShortFuse's summary of strategies, I didn't realize I was such a turtling player. I used the general terminology from other games and, although I realize now it's pretty much the same definition, up till now I thought it was something different and just called myself a defensive player.

Either way, I feel like playing Sonic precisely to throw myself into a new change pace.

 

[Heavyarms2050]

Ok i think this thru and looking the .gifs i synthesize a theory that wave dashing is still in the game. As you can see in this famous .gif:

Mario does his 2nd jump and does a momentum air dodge upward.

In melee, to execute a wavedash, you need to jump in the air for a split second and air dodge diagonally downward. So the melee wavedash formula is thus:

Splint second jump + air dodge diagonally downward = wavedash

In brawl, since air dodge only follows momentum the character is going we cannot change the trajectory of the air dodge, if this is true, than means we still can air dodge diagonally downward as long the character momentum is also going downward diagonally. Thus this is the new formula i surmised:

Short hop + diagonal downfall + air dodge = wavedash.

This formula is only true if brawl allows waveland and that we can air dodge in 8 direction

 

[cyberdemon]

In brawl, since air dodge only follows momentum the character is going we cannot change the trajectory of the air dodge, if this is true, than means we still can air dodge diagonally downward as long the character momentum is also going downward diagonally. Thus this is the new formula i surmised:

Short hop + diagonal downfall + air dodge = wavedash.

This formula is only true if brawl allows waveland and that we can air dodge in 8 direction

That would be more like triangle jumping

 

[Heavyarms2050]

if your fast enough, it'll look like a regular wave dash in melee

 

[Zek]

if your fast enough, it'll look like a regular wave dash in melee

No it won't. Even a shorthop takes you way too far off the ground to do that, fast-falling or not. And how can people who wavedash still not understand this... Just dodging into the ground does not make a wavedash. It is the momentum created by the directional airdodge in Melee(the speed with which you snap in a certain direction) that makes the wavedash. Without that, there's no difference at all from just landing normally.

 

[Zek]

To put it another way, saying that you can still wavedash with the airdodge like this is like saying that walking into someone with your fist held out is the same as punching them.

 

[Heavyarms2050]

No it won't. Even a shorthop takes you way too far off the ground to do that, fast-falling or not. And how can people who wavedash still not understand this... Just dodging into the ground does not make a wavedash. It is the momentum created by the directional airdodge in Melee(the speed with which you snap in a certain direction) that makes the wavedash. Without that, there's no difference at all from just landing normally.

so scratch out that part about doing it fast

 

[Dynamism]

I think using "attacks" as you hit the ground to depict how you react when landing is a good way to WL. It sure is advanced :/

speaking of turtles...SO HAPPY TOGETHER!!!!!
http://youtube.com/watch?v=UvljN9ycqLg


We've come a long way *nod*

 

[Zauron]

Ok i think this thru and looking the .gifs i synthesize a theory that wave dashing is still in the game. As you can see in this famous .gif:

Mario does his 2nd jump and does a momentum air dodge upward.

In melee, to execute a wavedash, you need to jump in the air for a split second and air dodge diagonally downward. So the melee wavedash formula is thus:

Splint second jump + air dodge diagonally downward = wavedash

In brawl, since air dodge only follows momentum the character is going we cannot change the trajectory of the air dodge, if this is true, than means we still can air dodge diagonally downward as long the character momentum is also going downward diagonally. Thus this is the new formula i surmised:

Short hop + diagonal downfall + air dodge = wavedash.

This formula is only true if brawl allows waveland and that we can air dodge in 8 direction

Problem is, since your air dodge will not change your trajectory at all, you would go the exact same distance as if you didn't air dodge at all and just didn't press anything when you hit the ground. Being in an air-dodge state doesn't suddenly make you more slidey. It just worked for Wavedashing because it suddenly pushed you in a direction, and the momentum of that push carried over into the ground. Since dodging no longer changes your trajectory, you would slide no more or less far by dodging into the ground as you would just landing normally.

 

[Lickuid]

Okay about the Momentum Air Dodge. In Melee, have you ever played on a stage with platforms and get smashed trying to tech off the platform you just landed on but instead bouncing and air dodging off the edge? Your air dodge will move whatever way you were smashed, so I guess this is a Momentum Air Dodge.

In that little gif image you showed of Mario doing it, they were playing with the Wii-motes (at least I think they were). I'm not 100% sure about the controls, but I am assuming the player was pressing up (D-pad) with whatever the B button is and air dodging, which made him go up following the momentum he was in.

Another thing I'd like say is Dash Dancing. It really is just dashing left and right. What's there to confirm?

 

[Zek]

so scratch out that part about doing it fast

Then you're not wavedashing. Do you understand? NO DIRECTIONAL AIR-DODGE = NO WAVEDASH. We still don't even know about wavelanding. What you're talking about is just doing a bunch of short-hops in row, it's meaningless.

 

[GTR!]

Weaving is when you move and attack in an out of a opponent's defensive range. It makes them very uncomfortable and afraid to attack.

Overshooting is when you attack and land past the opponent, not giving them the chance to attack since they're backwards

Turtling is playing only defensively aiming for flaws in the opponent's offensives tactics by only blocking, rolling, dodging and shieldgrabbing

Throttling is gauging you play speed used for mind games. If you watch videos and sometimes don't understand why some people just get smacked by Marth's fAir in a slow air attack, that's because the player accustoms the opponent to fastfalls and switches it up with slow (and unexpected) aerials.

Perfect-Block Counter is when you shield at the percise moment/frome as an attack hits your shield. You'll have instant recovery and can retaliate with an attack immediately. The LVL9 CPU does it plenty of times. This may sound impossible for humans to do, but I assure it's not. I play Soul Calibur 2 competitively (and some of my Smash playing friends) and that game requires timing to counter attacks (and Soul Calibur 3 has perfect frame countering which is stronger) so I can Perfect-Block pretty well. Throttling is necessary to avoid it from happening to you.




I beat you to it. Check out ShortFuse's (mine) MetaKnight WaveDash theory on the first post. It's the same thing but I go one step further. MetaKnight's glide allows him to do something similar to wavelanding when done against a platform. If that can be DJC into glide, then in theory, it'll be just like WaveDashing. Your theory is dependent on the air dodge which is no longer directional.

ahhhhahahah i feel like a n00b now soryy

i just didnt understand your termonology but thanks man i need thoses questions answered lol it was bugging me thanksss

 

[Zek]

Okay about the Momentum Air Dodge. In Melee, have you ever played on a stage with platforms and get smashed trying to tech off the platform you just landed on but instead bouncing and air dodging off the edge? Your air dodge will move whatever way you were smashed, so I guess this is a Momentum Air Dodge.

In that little gif image you showed of Mario doing it, they were playing with the Wii-motes (at least I think they were). I'm not 100% sure about the controls, but I am assuming the player was pressing up (D-pad) with whatever the B button is and air dodging, which made him go up following the momentum he was in.

Another thing I'd like say is Dash Dancing. It really is just dashing left and right. What's there to confirm?

The Mario in that video is a bot, but that's not important. Is it not obvious that the dodge did absolutely nothing to change the momentum his jump had already initiated? His momentum was completely, 100% unaffected by the act of airdodging. It wasn't an up-dodge.

 

[Heavyarms2050]

Then you're not wavedashing. Do you understand? NO DIRECTIONAL AIR-DODGE = NO WAVEDASH. We still don't even know about wavelanding. What you're talking about is just doing a bunch of short-hops in row, it's meaningless.

that why i said you have down fall in a diagonal, if momentum air dodge can go 8 direction, that mean you can momentum air dodge diagonally downward if you are falling diagonally downward

 

[greenblob]

Along side of "shine canceling," add "land-shine canceling." In Smash 64, you had to jump, shine immediately after, and land in order to shine cancel. That doesn't work in Melee (there's jump shine cancel), but it might work in Brawl.

 

[Japanese Monk]

people seriously don't understand that no DI airdodging means no wavedashing? LOL. Is it that hard to understand?

Perhaps wavelanding is in but WD is out if Momentum dodging is real.

 

[Master Peach]

I think Peach's instant float is still in. in the new video from E for all Peach can be seen intant Floating.

She jumps one once, then instant float, then attacking inside of the float.

Look at the vid. 0:38 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuZsxnQiCyo

 

[Master Peach]

Whoops Doubt post. Ignore this.

 

[GaryCXJk]

This air dodge does look cool though.

 

[Foxman15]

Maybe in order to have a momentum air-dodge you just leave the dpad/control stick in neutral position, and for a directional you postion the control stick/dpad. This occurs in melee, when you get hit at a high percentage, it doesn't matter if you air dodge with the control stick in neutral position, you will still go in the direction your momentum is heading. So, maybe Brawl has just increased the sensitivity (not the right word, but whatever) of the momentum's effect on the air dodge. So in order to do an air-dodge where you stay stationary you may have to : a) air dodge at max height so there is no momentum or, b) air dodge in a direction so it cancels out the momentum. For example, if your falling down, you must directional influence the air dodge up, which results in a stationary air dodge. I haven't been keeping up with all of these threads and posts about this, but here is one of my guesses.

 

[Foxman15]

Sorry my edit option is working, but here's a link to the new thread:

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=121298