Links' Tilt Game

[Brain-washed]

I feel Link Links' tilt attacks are some of his best, but they go unused. I play my Link with a lot of tilt attacks and it works for me, but I see top players almost never use them unless it's an up-tilt, and even then, rarely. Is there a problem with his tilt moves that makes the top players not use them as much? Is there anybody out there who utilizes his Tilts too?

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

http://www.angelfire.com/games5/superdoodleman/Link_frames_11.6.05.txt

That f-tilt is pointlessly aweful even slower than his f-smash and less possible gimicks(i'd like to see it spaced on sheilds with a charge mix-up because the frist hit has 1 frame advatage for the next hit and chagring might make it safeish(push back/stun/sheild stab)

Ask Yourself where f-tilt/d-tilt fits heck. It's like trying to use kirby's d-throw against puff at low percents. It's sucide at best

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

Ftilt has a lot of advantages over fsmash, its safer on sheild has wider arc meaning it can counter a SHFFL, hits lower which makes it an excellent edgeguarding tool. Hits above link, meaning it can be used to launch people at low platforms on FoD.
Dtilt is sometimes a great punish move as it guarantees a dair, its also good at some occasions when the opponent is sheilding your jabs as it has more sheild pushback than the dsmash(as well as having a few frames shorter downlag), WD back dtilt is also at times useful to set up a kill.
Everyone knows utilts purpose in countering jump approaches and comboing so no need to bother with trying to figure that out.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

If Your trying to beat out jumps with f-tilt/sheild pressure why not jab? It combos into stuff and stuff.

And 16 frame sheild disadtavage isn't really the go to move compared to jab's 9 frame disadtange on an incrediblely slow chartcer.

D-tilt on sheild i can only ask why so close to a sheild that isn't gannon's or falcon's?

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

If Your trying to beat out jumps with f-tilt/shield pressure why not jab? It combos into stuff and stuff.

Ftilt is not that good for shield pressuring, I think you understood me on that, I mostly mean it as a tool if you anticipate some kind of jump approach. Jab doesn't combo into anything but dsmash and dsmash has the wrong launch direction in the cases you want to use ftilt/fsmash or UpB to launch the opponent. Ftilts main purpose is still edgeguarding though, other stuff is secondary and just a matter of taste, playstyle or mood.

And 16 frame shield disadtavage isn't really the go to move compared to jab's 9 frame disadvange on an incrediblely slow chartcer.

This is true, but it has longer hitlag making it possible that the opponent screws up after it, also most characters need to WD in and as soon as they can get their attack out you will have your jab out again, thats why that extra sheild stun and sheild knockback matter, it is just enough.

D-tilt on shield I can only ask why so close to a shield that isn't gannon's or falcon's?

Thats mostly cause Im not perfect in my spacing game, or perfect in anything for that matter, actually I assume I will screw up and that's why I also try to find backup strats. Dtilt is one of my backup strats to better a position without risking a whole lot, you will get a nice transition from jab shield pressure into fsmash shield pressure. It's much better than trying to grab and if I don't suspect I can get a sheild poke I think it's better to sometimes dtilt or jab cancel and prepare to DI, the extra knockback from when you are in a smashanimation is sometimes important to account for and avoid IMO.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

D-tilt on sheild has a 14 frame start-up if You need a back up plan many links spot-dodge punish whiff. Or You could jab or even sh retreating nair to be safe. It takes 11 frames 3 frames faster than d-tilt and immue to game.
Jab d-smash isn't bad when You think about speed of jab and just maxing it out

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

D-tilt on sheild has a 14 frame start-up if You need a back up plan many links spot-dodge punish whiff. Or You could jab or even sh retreating nair to be safe. It takes 11 frames 3 frames faster than d-tilt and immue to game.
Jab d-smash isn't bad when You think about speed of jab and just maxing it out

I don't get the same result, different reward and different options covered. jabbing won't land a kill, sh backwards can not be done if there is nothing to retreat to and won't get me any kills and getting a kill is the only reason I use the dtilt. So why should I replace it with some spacing tool instead when it's a kill I need/want.

Jab dsmash is my most used tool against shields so you don't need to tell me it's good, I already know,

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

It's easier for sheik,falcon,fox, gannon,ice climbers, marth and i'd agure luigi to grab You to death than You to get a kill on sheik anywhere from 0-100 with a d-tilt.

I rather get a safe jab that does no damage but put them in a spot where I can punish rolls, oos and general whiffs then try to land a move twice as slow with hlaf the max reward. Jab -d-smash isn't terrible. Sure if their sheild is weak like say You ran up bombed then d-tiled(trained them to expect a double projectile or run up jump back then yeah sure sheild poke. Buuut unless You did just for that d-tilt just no. 3 minute set-up for meh reward.


That said think in these terms: falco's dair shine at frame perfect isn't safe on block on my sheild as falcon. I sheild sdi to avoid the shine and grt a free grab. Why can't I crap on Your spaceing as well????? Jab is much more range with less distance I can move in on with.

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

It's easier for sheik,falcon,fox, gannon,ice climbers, marth and i'd argue luigi to grab You to death than You to get a kill on sheik anywhere from 0-100 with a d-tilt.

I wouldn't do it if it doesn't kill, that includes what percentage they are at, dtilt -> dair kills at surprisingly low percent. Sheik is probably the character I find it most useful against as she is impossible to shield poke with anything and thus I need to get something out of the situation in some other way.

I rather get a safe jab that does no damage but put them in a spot where I can punish rolls, oos and general whiffs then try to land a move twice as slow with hlaf the max reward. Jab -d-smash isn't terrible. Sure if their sheild is weak like say You ran up bombed then d-tiled(trained them to expect a double projectile or run up jump back then yeah sure sheild poke. Buuut unless You did just for that d-tilt just no. 3 minute set-up for meh reward.

Dair is in no way meh, I never said jab dsmash is terrible(quite the contrary) so please stop putting words in my mouth, it's like you think I said that dtilt is a good move just cause I said it has uses, stop making these assumptions so we can have a normal conversation instead of a flame party.

Jab is great but there still is a few situations where dtilting helps better. It's not like you should search it, you should feel it, either it fits the situation or it won't, the situations where it is the most suited attack is very specific, but they exist. It only has certain purposes.

That said think in these terms: falco's dair shine at frame perfect isn't safe on block on my sheild as falcon. I sheild sdi to avoid the shine and grt a free grab. Why can't I crap on Your spaceing as well????? Jab is much more range with less distance I can move in on with.

jab is also less sheild knockback and gives a different shield stun the opponent is more used to cause I use it more frequently than the dtilt. Thus throwing out that dtilt when I want to land my dair will put them in a situation which they are less used to.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

I said You said ______?

Just sounded like a gernel use tool and being aggro that close to a sheild is offen frowned on as some chartcers. Like gerenally pichu's side-b is useless and just as bad as good for recovery. But it has wierd on stage uses with hard reads and ledge cancels. Or if say someone is ledge stalliingit can hit them in a pretty funny way.

Exp. based stuff

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

Well, you implied that I did not say that jab->dsmash is good, that I said jab is bad and said the dtilt is really useful by responding by instructing me the opposite. That is putting words in my mouth IMO as you respond to something I didn't say. I don't think you did that on purpose so I'm not mad, I just got frustrated and I didn't want the discussion to derail.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

I think I can read minds. I know I can't but I act like I can for whatever reason.

There's a reason no inae esle replied to this thread.

 

[Bigglestheman]

Replied to this thread.

 

[Brain-washed]

This is not how I expected this go at all lol.
I'll just say a low percent F-tilt can combo into a dash attack to some aerial, depends on the DI and where you hit the dash. Also, a good edge guard I found with with D-tilt against Fox and Falco is; If they side-B on stage, you can boomerang them (not sure what percents work best) but this usually makes them go straight up at like a short hop height. Then usually if it's off stage you can D-tilt spike them or F-tilt them. Just saying.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

just know in the time You coud f-tilt You could've naired faster or any move faster and with better comboing useage, safer on sheid, landed a move that kills better, or grabed the ledge and naired to cover even more options than f-tilt(minus ys/FoD) without giving them the chance to edge tech.

as a Pichu main I might find a spot to put bair/fair in one out of every 50 matches just because they are both horribely outclassed by nair.

I would never f-tilt unless I messed up edge guard

 

[KirbyKaze]

Point the analog stick upwards slightly, or press it up and hold it while Link is occupied with another action that can't activate jump (the stick can be held up all the way in these circumstances).

Behold! Link's tilt game!

Trolling aside, Link's best way of winning is by hitting a bunch of up airs on the opponent or using his reasonable edgeguarding to gimp or rack damage after hitting the opponent offstage with one of his decent finishers. Often, the first bleeds into the second because of a bunch of reasons. So, coming back to tilts, his up tilt is a good move on its own. But the fact that it feeds his main strategies for winning and fills a bunch of important niches makes it one of his best moves. The move is sort of like his version of Sheik's f-tilt in a lot of respects, except it's just not that good.

F-tilt can be used for edgeguarding. Someone said it's safer on shield than f-smash but I don't find this too true in practice simply because the timing games you can play with f-smash (the window for Link to initiate the second swing is pretty sizable) creates a sort of "fake frame advantage" in that the threat of the second swing can discourage direct counterattacks on it (wavedash > grab OOS, for instance).

D-tilt is cute because it can set up dair in a bunch of ways but it's mostly for edgeguarding and crap. It's too slow to be useful for crouch-punishing, terrible vs shields if it doesn't pierce, and generally overshadowed by grab as a combo starter. So yeah.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

It's a good thing he doesn't know he scares me and I gave up thinking out loud

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

Dtilt sucks for edgeguarding IMO, ftilt is a much better tool for those situations. I.e the situation where you don't want to risk your position in an offstage option like nair but still need to hit the opponent or don't have enough time to get off stage. The ftilt hits low enough and hits hard enough to cover that option so much better, as well as having more range and a more certain knockback direction. To me the purpose it actually have is as a dair setup.

 

[Blubba_Pinecone]

Hmmm... well I'll give my take on his tilts I guess. If anyone agrees/disagrees that's cool, I enjoy discussion on thoughts and these are just mine in particular.

Utilt - self explanitory

Dtilt and Ftilt have a unique relationship in my head. As far as general on-stage usage, I use them very sparingly, but I do use them. In general I only use them when I feel a staggered hit is the way to go (thanks to rushdown experience in games like BlazBlue/Persona) due to their startup lag. I tend to catch people pressing buttons doing this. On equally rare occasion I use Ftilt as an anti-air if the opponent's position seems appropriate or Dtilt as a shield poke attempt if their shield is getting low.

They also have a relationship for edgegaurding, since they both hit very low. In general, I like to use Dtilt when the opponent is at lower percents. When I attempt a Dtilt, I aim for the spike but I look for the hit confirm for a non-spike, and usually combo into Fair or something to knock them back off and restart the situation. If they are at a high enough percentage that I think a hit from Ftilt will destroy all hope, then I go for Ftilt.

 

[Mr.C]

Every single one of Links tilts outside of u-tilt is terrible. Jab will almost always be used more effectively for stopping attacks, starting attacks, or comboing into other moves. The only other tilt even remotely useful is f-tilt when edge-guarding. Otherwise, avoid them at all costs and simply use his superior aerial moves.

 

[Zodiac]

Utilt - the easiest tilt to use and the most useful, sets up for Uair combo's and can possibly kill approaches and turn the combo's around.
Ftilt - Wonderful for edge guarding any character that has a tough time sweet spotting, LIKE FALCON. That's really the only use I can think of.
Dtilt - Used to poke shields when they are low, you would be surprised how easy it is to poke with this move when used at the right time, I get more shield pokes with this than I do with dsmash. Then there's meteoring with it.

Back Tilt - It instantly kills everything, pretty good tilt.

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

I find the dtilt sheildpoking more when tippered whereas the dsmash sheildpokes more often when closer.

 

[Winter_Sun]

Link has amazing tilt game, Dtilt is really nice for out of shield attacking (and Dat meteor), Utilt is amazing for juggling and all of its other uses, and Ftilt is situationally solid for knocking back an opponent or ledge guarding.

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

How do you use dtilt OoS, do you mean from a platform?

 

[SAUS]

Up-Tilt:
Good for juggling heavier characters and helps set up some good killing blows with up-air or down-air. It's just a solid up-tilt.

Forward-Tilt:
I use it pretty much only for edge-guarding. It actually hits quite low so it can hit non-perfectly spaced recoveries and the angle it hits you is deadly at higher damages.

Down-Tilt:
I barely use it. I think down-smash comes out sooner and still has tons of combo ability. The only time I used it like a badass was in a tournament years ago against some falco - he was at ~30% and I did a back-air and then turned around and down-tilt meteored him and he died. It was glorious. I think I actually made that guy mad.

 

[SYickX]

If anyone has a Jigglypuff to play, try f-tilting that little balloon. I've had some success with it in certain, somewhat awkward, spacing situations.

Unfortunately, I don't have a Puff main to play regularly, so I only have a few tournament matches as reference.

Basically, f-tilt sweeps out just about the right spot where Puff like to pop in. I.e. just above f-smash range.

 

[SAUS]

There's a puff player in Ottawa that I met recently. I'll probably be playing him a freaking ton. I'll try it out.

My current vs puff strategy is projectile spam and kill with up-airs. I never grab or up-b against puff. Down-air is a fairly safe killing move for the match up.

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

You should try turnaround utilts then. They cover you quite well and setup for some nice juggles.

You can land utilt->dair as a finisher on most stages(not DL, FoD) around 50%-60%.

 

[SYickX]

I usually get some good damage on Puff with lots of nair. Link's vertical mobility is way faster than Jigglypuff's. (She can got laterally really fast, but she can't gain height or fall quickly)
I drop on her head with nair. Almost every trade goes in Link's favor because we can kill Jiggs early, but she can't kill us early. (Assuming Link is properly avoiding rest and staying on the stage.)

 

[SAUS]

I usually get some good damage on Puff with lots of nair. Link's vertical mobility is way faster than Jigglypuff's. (She can got laterally really fast, but she can't gain height or fall quickly)
I drop on her head with nair. Almost every trade goes in Link's favor because we can kill Jiggs early, but she can't kill us early. (Assuming Link is properly avoiding rest and staying on the stage.)

I'll have to try that out.

I found out that Link's down-tilt pops up spacies at any % (I didn't test with crouch cancelling though). This may help me out a ton against low damage spacies. The only problem is that it hits slower than down-smash. I'll probably get some games in on friday, so I will report back with that.

 

[SYickX]

I've been experimenting with d-tilt also. It definitely has it good moments, but I still put in the "mix-up" category rather than something reliable.

 

[SAUS]

ya I know what you mean. It's just a little too slow to be reliable. I think back-air into down-smash combos nicely, but back-air into down-tilt doesn't. So saddening. It'll still help my game though.

 

[ChainArmour712]

Uptilt is the most useful, for juggling and as a quick attack to supplement the jabs. Ftilt I mainly use as a ranged spacing attack, although it's so predictable that other options such as hookshot are usually better. Dtilt is too hard to land with not enough range, and the endlag isn't much better than dsmash to be worth it, it's so slow that against any decent player there's just too much risk of punishment for it to be used. Overall I'd say Link's tilts are below average- some characters like Mewtwo and Bowser really depend on their tilt games but for Link it's more of using the jabs, hookshot and projectiles to harrass and set up air/smash/spin attacks. On Brawl though I have seen Dtilt being used to punish low recoveries.

 

[cjugs]

Yeah there's no argument on uptilt not being one of his best moves, but dtilt is only really useful on YS where the stage is slanted and ftilt won't work. Fsmash works on falcon as well recoverying from the ledge so it's a little better because you can charge it. They are actually both very laggy so if you miss you are screwed. That's why grabbing the edge and nairing is the best option. Even against a character like Marth i like to grab the edge because not many of his moves come out fast an he doesn't have any that stay out. that's probably his biggest weakness. Ftilt is very nice against goofy slow characters as a edgeguard but try to only do it when you don't have time to do something else, but yeah it's nice against Marth cuz he can't really do much about it. Fsmash is a very useful against IC or a character who thinks that they can WD OOS and try to grab you usally they aren't ready for the other one but be careful.

 

[ChainArmour712]

I was playing some Brawl last night and realized that Link's dtilt comes out noticeably faster in that game. That plus the added sword range makes it and uptilt some of Link's best moves in Brawl. Of course, that doesn't make up for his nerfs and being a lot clumsier in general. From going Melee Link to Brawl Link it really feels like he had too many shots of Hylian liquor ;-)

 

[SAUS]

Yeah there's no argument on uptilt not being one of his best moves, but dtilt is only really useful on YS where the stage is slanted and ftilt won't work. Fsmash works on falcon as well recoverying from the ledge so it's a little better because you can charge it. They are actually both very laggy so if you miss you are screwed. That's why grabbing the edge and nairing is the best option. Even against a character like Marth i like to grab the edge because not many of his moves come out fast an he doesn't have any that stay out. that's probably his biggest weakness. Ftilt is very nice against goofy slow characters as a edgeguard but try to only do it when you don't have time to do something else, but yeah it's nice against Marth cuz he can't really do much about it. Fsmash is a very useful against IC or a character who thinks that they can WD OOS and try to grab you usally they aren't ready for the other one but be careful.

I like to edgeguard by taking the edge, and then edge-hop dair for the kill. It's a good way to kill characters like shiek, marth, and captain falcon since when they land on stage there is a lot of lag time. If they try to go really high to get away from it, you can get up up-b or just jump up after them to get the dair. Against spacies, I pretty much use the boomerang to force them below the edge so they have to up-b (extremely predictably) and then I run off nair or jump off bair.

 

[cjugs]

edgeguarding on stage with link isn't a good idea or his best option butsometimes un avoidable

 

[Corona]

I use F-tilt often as a combo finisher (after a couple of up tilts at low percent, after I hit with a bomb at close range, tech chase after down throw) when I feel I need to save the staleness of a dair or upb. It really covers a lot of area with the arc, and I will use it also when reading an opponent's dash dance. With that said, if given the chance, I'd short hop fair in some of these situations as well.