Looticforgothispassword
Smash Ace
And I try to get around it by thinking what moves I can allow myself to get hit by and utilizing light shielding.
Last edited:
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Q&A Link's Take Over - Q&A and General Link Discussion
- Thread starter dablackpacman
- Start date
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Yeah I also find myself getting shield stabbed a lot.
Plunder
Smash Ace
Can one of the vets give me a low down on Link's F-Smash
It's probably one of my favorite moves in the game; just because of how much range it has, how powerful both parts are, how they can combo into each other, how it recoils, and how it can threaten with ambiguous timing on it's 2nd part (people really seem fear the 2nd hit cause of it's power and relative speed).
The info on the frame thread states a +5 on sheild from 2nd hit....is this right? is that if you hit both back to back as fast as possible? Seems too good to be true...
I see Germ often throw out rouge F-mashes and mixing up the timing and doing singles sometimes doubles sometimes and he rarely gets punished for it. I know both smashes by themselves are punishable....or are they not because of shield stun, reaction time, and push back? (I know the frame data and shield stun figures)
It's probably one of my favorite moves in the game; just because of how much range it has, how powerful both parts are, how they can combo into each other, how it recoils, and how it can threaten with ambiguous timing on it's 2nd part (people really seem fear the 2nd hit cause of it's power and relative speed).
The info on the frame thread states a +5 on sheild from 2nd hit....is this right? is that if you hit both back to back as fast as possible? Seems too good to be true...
I see Germ often throw out rouge F-mashes and mixing up the timing and doing singles sometimes doubles sometimes and he rarely gets punished for it. I know both smashes by themselves are punishable....or are they not because of shield stun, reaction time, and push back? (I know the frame data and shield stun figures)
Last edited:
The f-smash is +5 going into the second f-smash swing if you are frame perfect. The second swing takes 10 frames to hit, so your opponent will have only 5 frames to act. This is enough for a fox shine OOS, a roll, a spot dodge, maybe jump but I think most, if not all, characters will not get high enough before the hit boxes come out. This means you can get free hits if your opponent is trying to shield grab you or something.
If you hit an spacy while they are short hopping at you (has to be off of a read / guess), you can pretty much always land both hits. It even leads to combos from this position sometimes.
Spacies (and any character that is heavier) can definitely CC the first hit at 0 and shine you off of your f-smash.
IMO it is okay to use sometimes, but don't go nuts with it. Most of what you will get off of it is either from really hard reads or from your opponent not knowing how to deal with it properly. It has a place, but just don't spam it. I've definitely done that in some matches and it can definitely cost you
Hunybear
Smash Ace
Second Hit of F-Smash also sends opponents at a 65 degree angle upwards. It's pretty great of you get it off because it will often lead to tech chases at lower %s. I don't use this move often tho aside from punishing DI away on up throws against FF at mid %.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Second hit f-smash ON shield is like -20 or something. But it's +5 between the first and second hit on shield, meaning the shielder has to hold throughout the full string or they will get swatted.
Not quite. They have 5 frames to act. It is +5, but the second f-smash swing hits on frame 10. They can buffer roll out. Otherwise, this would be some sweet shield-breaking tech lol. Just double f-smash their shield once it's a bit worn and it would be guaranteed shield break.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Well, yeah I assumed that the f-smash would hit before their shield grab, so it would have had to be at least 6 frames of advantage between the fsmash (slash 1) shield stun and the second swing active hitbox. But anyway, the point is that the second hit is super punishable on shield.
Looticforgothispassword
Smash Ace
fsmash has enough range to outspace shield grabs
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
It doesn't matter. Any character can just wavedash out of shield and grab you.
Plunder
Smash Ace
Nah they can't between smashes, that's about 15+7=22 frames on average. You know that.
I think Chival you were just trying to backpedal from your earlier incorrect statement. Of course, if they have terrible dumb spacing or they have alien like reaction time with Shield DI + Marth....but 99% of the time, no. I can't recall many top level matches where a Link was shield grabbed or WD grabbed out of first Smash, that's too risky since second hit kills so early and is a possible combo starter.
In my opinion they shouldn't use +5 between since it isn't in-line with it's meaning for other shield stun estimations. The shielding party has 5 frames of freedom, not Link (so it's -5). It is +5 at the very start of frame perfect 2nd smash animation, but in all the other uses of +/- frames it's about the most possible after the hitbox has made contact with shield (then the difference of frames until being able to act).
I think Chival you were just trying to backpedal from your earlier incorrect statement. Of course, if they have terrible dumb spacing or they have alien like reaction time with Shield DI + Marth....but 99% of the time, no. I can't recall many top level matches where a Link was shield grabbed or WD grabbed out of first Smash, that's too risky since second hit kills so early and is a possible combo starter.
In my opinion they shouldn't use +5 between since it isn't in-line with it's meaning for other shield stun estimations. The shielding party has 5 frames of freedom, not Link (so it's -5). It is +5 at the very start of frame perfect 2nd smash animation, but in all the other uses of +/- frames it's about the most possible after the hitbox has made contact with shield (then the difference of frames until being able to act).
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
For the love of God. I'm talking about after the second hit of the fsmash.
link7
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jan 14, 2013
- Messages
- 1,081
- Location
- Steilacoom, Washington
- NNID
- Kidlink77
- 3DS FC
- 2234-7140-8163
Looticforgothispassword
Smash Ace
This is where you can land the second fsmash, creating a mixup situation.
Hunybear
Smash Ace
F-smashing shield is bad. Second hit makes it less bad.
Even if second hit can come out +5 they can still just hold shield and wait until the window for second swing to end and get you in the end lag of the first swing. Luckily no one knows those frame Windows so it doesn't matter.
It's a mix up sure, but it still puts Link at a disadvantage.
Anyway this convo seems a little silly so getting off it. Links need to GET ON THE BOARDS! It's so inactive... Like only 5 posts every week or so
Even if second hit can come out +5 they can still just hold shield and wait until the window for second swing to end and get you in the end lag of the first swing. Luckily no one knows those frame Windows so it doesn't matter.
It's a mix up sure, but it still puts Link at a disadvantage.
Anyway this convo seems a little silly so getting off it. Links need to GET ON THE BOARDS! It's so inactive... Like only 5 posts every week or so
Plunder
Smash Ace
So you're a Link main now Huny?
Hunybear
Smash Ace
As of now. I get as far as top 8 at my locals with Link but if I'm down in sets I go Marth again. I wouldn't call it dual maining tho because all of my melee time is going to Link. He's great for forcing myself to learn zoning.
Thor
Smash Champion
That frame window doesn't exist, if I'm reading the data correctly. From what I can tell, you are actionable the first frame that you stop being able to access the second swing [i.e., if you fsmash1 then press A at some point after, you will either always start a jab or always do fsmash2, there is no cooldown window where your A input does nothing].
Really struggling with Fox lately and considering picking up Samus to deal with him better [it feels soooooo much easier when he can't CC dsmash for free, never mind that hers is faster]. The aerial mobility difference and worse grab is awkward but the up+b is sweet. I can beat pretty much any Fox I run into that doesn't waveshine or shinegrab, and I can beat some that do those things too, but it's rough... I recall a while back SAUS recommended retreating fairs, but those don't seem to get me very far. Should I be trying to DD more to bait something? It feels like the effective range of our DD is zero because we don't have many threatening options to Fox from it at low percents [any?], and his is longer and faster. I tend to spend a lot of time either looking for a uair/nair or throwing stuff [mostly bombs when I can get them, boomerangs probably more than I should], but I feel shield-dependent and like I maybe need to refresh what I do in the MU.
On another random note, I feel like the video thread is badly managed. Lots of videos dropped in it, not much critique/advice going on, and I don't know if anyone watches any of it [I actually have a clip I'm curious if anyone has confidence replicating - teched and tried to immediate dsmash, got an immediate fall-off dair and it hit Marth... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdzguOkluC4&t=10m2s ]
Also are we supposed to just CC everything Marth does? I feel like I spend the vast majority of the MU holding down...
Plunder
Smash Ace
^ Yep
There isn't such a window, so there is nothing to know or not know...
2nd Smash is actionable frames 19-49; after First Fsmash hitbox becomes inactive up until the time you can move again.
After first Smash hits their shield you and the opponent are within reaction time of them trying to do something as a counterattack after shield stun. Really it's high risk for them to try something and not worth it unless they are reading. It's also high risk to unleash the 2nd hit without seeing them act first but it doesn't have to be thrown out at all. That's the beauty of the move, it's not spammable but it creates a stalemate that Link has a little bit of an upper hand on against a lot of characters because of it's unique spacing and ambiguity.
And yea Samus.....oh Samus is so easy to use on spacy mains who don't play Samus often. All you gotta do is not jump unless you are following a confirm (or MC'ing), know how to hold down, know how to Up-B OoS, and know how to Wave Dash and you will pretty much win neutral if you have good reflexes.
Also for Fox you were talking about retreating Fairs from SAUS....that can work for aggro spacies but what can work wonders on careful spacies is just straight up SH SHFFL Fairs. Link balls up and can often avoid spaced nair approaches (lasers too) then he swings down with a rangy Fair catching the spacies like a trap as they fly in. Venus Fair Trap. Same concept as Ganon, but Link's is faster (shame that his Fair is wasted in the Z direction though :/). FH FFL Fairs can also be great since Link's FF is pretty quick, there are other options from the peak of FH for mix up not to mention this can help avoid pre-emptive lasers and projectiles.
There isn't such a window, so there is nothing to know or not know...
2nd Smash is actionable frames 19-49; after First Fsmash hitbox becomes inactive up until the time you can move again.
After first Smash hits their shield you and the opponent are within reaction time of them trying to do something as a counterattack after shield stun. Really it's high risk for them to try something and not worth it unless they are reading. It's also high risk to unleash the 2nd hit without seeing them act first but it doesn't have to be thrown out at all. That's the beauty of the move, it's not spammable but it creates a stalemate that Link has a little bit of an upper hand on against a lot of characters because of it's unique spacing and ambiguity.
And yea Samus.....oh Samus is so easy to use on spacy mains who don't play Samus often. All you gotta do is not jump unless you are following a confirm (or MC'ing), know how to hold down, know how to Up-B OoS, and know how to Wave Dash and you will pretty much win neutral if you have good reflexes.
Also for Fox you were talking about retreating Fairs from SAUS....that can work for aggro spacies but what can work wonders on careful spacies is just straight up SH SHFFL Fairs. Link balls up and can often avoid spaced nair approaches (lasers too) then he swings down with a rangy Fair catching the spacies like a trap as they fly in. Venus Fair Trap. Same concept as Ganon, but Link's is faster (shame that his Fair is wasted in the Z direction though :/). FH FFL Fairs can also be great since Link's FF is pretty quick, there are other options from the peak of FH for mix up not to mention this can help avoid pre-emptive lasers and projectiles.
Last edited:
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Vs Fox, the biggest things in neutral are not getting caught in shield. If the Fox likes to shine grab, you may have to start buffer rolling out. Some Foxes get lazy and do shine to full hop aerials, which you can easily uair out of shield if you adjust to their spacing and drift under. You can also wavedash back and d-tilt in some instances.
@Lootic No I mean that you can wavedash out of shield and grab the second slash of Link's fsmash.
@Lootic No I mean that you can wavedash out of shield and grab the second slash of Link's fsmash.
Plunder
Smash Ace
Yes! WD > Dtilt seems to work more than it should. Definitely underused currently. Against Falco it's not as good of course because of lasers, but the Dtilt can be cancelled pretty fast (frame 32 iirc) so it's not much of a commitment but amazing if it lands. It sets up so much on FFers at any percent. Man if only Link's D-tilt had Pikachu's or Roy/Marth's Dtilt frame data. if only T.T
Looticforgothispassword
Smash Ace
Huh, sure? Aww well, it works anyways.
Rodrick Strickland
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Jan 20, 2015
- Messages
- 23
Is there any use for Link's forward tilt at all?
Plunder
Smash Ace
Edge Guarding, Because it hits low and has generous hitboxes on the sword it can cover the lip and a few options above and in front of Link as well.
So usually you'll see it used against recovering spacies to cover their Up B and Side B options around the edge. It's not the best option but it can KO early, can be a good mix up.
So usually you'll see it used against recovering spacies to cover their Up B and Side B options around the edge. It's not the best option but it can KO early, can be a good mix up.
Fox is a hard matchup. You really have to not shield against him and not let him get you into bad positions (basically, any time you might want to shield, you are probably out of position).
The thing about Fox's moves is that they are actually relatively small and also need to hit in specific ways to lead to things (depends a lot on where he lands after an aerial - shine doesn't combo into stuff if you are in the air - etc.). Dash dancing can be threatening, but it can also make the fox's attacks a lot less dangerous.
You only need to do about 20 damage to fox and your d-smash can start knocking him down. Landing a fair at any % puts fox into a bad mixup (has to be jump to avoid grabs but then becomes vulnerable to up-tilt).
What I can say is that it is SUPER easy to attack fox the wrong way and just get punished even for hitting him. You have to take your time and know a lot about how the matchup works. Even though I got bopped by two top foxes at GOML (and two more in money matches) I feel like the matchup is very doable.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
If Link spaces well and avoids getting stuck in shield, it can be very annoying for Fox to close the distance on Link. Disjoints + projectiles for days.
Looticforgothispassword
Smash Ace
Against spacies its better to go with rang to cover side B and high recovery in general and then jab -> run off nair to cover on stage recovery from below or if you cant get a rang out for some reason, lastly if they are below the stage nair is your best bet.
Ftilt is most useful vs doc, mario, CF and ganon, especially the two latter as their upB sometimes grabs through the nair and this can turn the edgeguard.
Plunder
Smash Ace
I'll quote myself in case it was missed -
"It's not the best option but it can KO early, can be a good mix up."
Jab run off nair and any nair edge guard is redundant Day 1 Link stuff, the user was asking about F-Tilt.
On CF and Ganon yes it can hit their Up-B's but really almost any move can since their Up-Bs go so high before grabbing. F-tilt is techable, but even without tech it will only reset them to the upper corner when they DI leaving them a lot of options. For heavy FFish characters like those two it's better to D-tilt into and KO move, less end lag, faster start-up, set up potential. But of course grabbing ledge and doing an invincible move is best if you can't force them on stage..
Mario and Dr. Mario I have never heard of Link's using F-tilt, can't recall seeing it used either. I'm sure it can works ometimes but "most useful"? Can't their Up-B and their insane ledge grab distance just avoid it altogether.
Last edited:
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
F-tilt is a move that I have wanted to experiment with. It seems like occasionally a good choice for edgeguarding (there might be a few situations when it's preferred over up-b, particularly when you would want to cover a low option and have time to cover a high recovery too, afterward).
Last edited:
LegendaryLinkPlayer
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- May 25, 2016
- Messages
- 6
does anyone know the frame data for link's throws and item pick ups? I feel like his neutral A throw is faster than his smash throw even though they look exactly the same. I also want to figure out how long his item catch and item pick up from ground animations are because I want to experiment on using multiple bombs to control space
Thor
Smash Champion
I use ftilt a fair bit due to something silly that happened in PM a while back combined with someone telling me it hits below ledge.
In my opinion, there is at least one situation where ftilt is really good – it’s when a spacie (probably more often Fox due to his longer up+b) on Battlefield can choose between going straight up or coming at you. With good timing, ftilt will stuff the coming at you option, and then you can do something to them if they go straight up after the ftilt (up+b? jab?), since it is not that laggy and they still have to fall [20 frames of endlag]. If you can get the spacing and timing down, it’s also an amazing option vs Marth [I’m not sure if he can ever sweetspot around it, but I know for certain we can outspace his up+B and hit him if he’s not perfect or close to it because I’ve done it several times]. You can also use it against Peach as well [hit her out of the rising portion of parasol, outspacing it similar to vs Marth], although I’m not sure if it’s better than dtilt or trying to hit her with a bomb…
The other important thing about ftilt is that if you time the last active hitbox to be some frame before they grab ledge, it can’t be punished with any getup option except drop from ledge aerials, because as mentioned before, only 20 frames of endlag [even a ledgedash has 10 frames landing lag and 7 stuck on ledge, so that’s 17 frames minimum, plus time to get on ledge, so unless someone needs only two frames of aerial jump to ledgedash, no options can punish us because that’s 10+7+3 = 20 = no frame advantage for either side, although they’re invincible – and that assumes last frame is the frame before ledgegrab and we whiff it]. That fact, combined with our solid CC game, makes it low risk to go for [we could CC basically all of Marth’s options from ledge for instance, since his dair shouldn’t reach us if we’re outspacing up+B].
Plunder
Smash Ace
{Throw}: {Affected by weight?}
{Released Frame}, {1st Actionable Frame} [{1stAF - Released}] ({Hitbox/es on throw animation if any}; {Other notable info})
The release/total times include hitlag affecting the thrower, so if the animation were to release on 30 but has 3 additional freeze frames during it it'd be listed as 33.
Link
D-Throw: YES
30, 52 [22] (Hitbox on L-Shoulder 22-25; 22-24 hitlag)
U-Throw: NO
30, 53 [23] (Hitbox on Sword 26-29; 26-29 hitlag)
F-Throw: NO
19, 43 [24] (Hitbox on R-Leg 12-18; 12-15 hitlag)
B-Throw: NO
19, 43 [24] (Hitbox on L-Leg 11-18; 11-14 hitlag)
Bomb frame data can be found in Hitbox/Frame thread, someone posted most of it later. What I do when I want to figure out frame data is just record myself playing in training mode at 1/2 speed and frame by frame review it.
Item pick ups/catch? It's near instant (1-2 frames) but why theory craft, just try it. The only way you'd be able to have multiple bombs quickly in play would be to set them down or juggle them. Neither are really practical in competitive play, setting down can work as bait or multi-bomb set up, but at top levels your mindshare and resources can be better spent IMO. Most aggro skilled players will be all over you to the point where you don't even have time to pick 1 bomb most of the time. I will say that for sure Young Link is way better for what you are talking about, better bombs, ability to pull bomb from ledge, better mobility, better wave dash. The only thing Link has that would help is a MUCH better FF speed allowing easier catching dropped bombs and different bomb placing options than YL.
Last edited:
Plunder
Smash Ace
Sorry for double post, but why not just D-tilt instead for those scenarios-
It's faster to start
Faster to end
MUCH less awkward to use out of CC
Can set up KO/confirm for most characters at a lot of percents, even at really high percents can be reached with 2 jumps + Up-B
F-tilt is kind of powerful but they will be prepping a tech or DI when recovering . D-tilt allows better options to react to both of those. If we're talking CC, F-smash or D-smash are faster, very easy out of CC, and potentially more powerful/useful aren't they?
IMO this is all over-thinking though since Marth is such an easy character to edge guard as Link, I mean he can't do anything about Link's super long Nair + another Nair. Worst case scenario is that it will trade and they die. Or you can just refresh on ledge and invincible aerial, or you can just Marth killer, etc.
Thor
Smash Champion
I'm not sure why you would ever CC ftilt. I think you're misreading what I was saying? I'm saying space an ftilt before the up+b, not out of CC.
If they DI dtilt away, we have no followups on it at high percents [SDI the up+B, if it even reaches]. If you are CCing something, yes dtilt or dsmash, but again, if you ftilt, miss, and they do ledgedrop DJ aerial, you would CC and do standard stuff, not try to ftilt again.
Ftilt is useful when you knock Marth off with a spin attack cross stage and don't really have time to prep those options as much. If you have lots of time, the other options are better, but it's an option if your shield is worn down enough to where you can't lightshield edgeguard [not likely, but if you shield a shield breaker and Up+B OoS for instance] or if getting to ledge fast is unlikely from where you are [or if your refreshes just aren't quite there, if you're off by a little you can get stage spiked or dair'd super duper fast so it's less risky if you have a big percent lead but tied stocks].
Ftilt will also beat an immediate, early up+b, say if you fair him off and he does ASDI down fastfall up+b, ftilt might already be set up, but other options are not. At percentages where that's a relevant scenario dtilt is also useful, but ftilt will guarantee a reset situation where one of the edgeguards you suggested will do the job [or KO him outright].
Gonna +1 this. D-tilt sets up for easy kills all the time. I think f-tilt will maybe be better in a few specific scenarios, but d-tilt is almost always easier / better. Against fast fallers, it combos into kill / better reset options at basically any percent.
I honestly only do f-tilts by accident right now, but I think it has super niche applications in a bunch of matchups that might be worth exploring more. I wouldn't get my hopes up about the move. Maybe I will try it when edge guarding falcon. I know I used to and it was great. Much better option than panic up-b-ing and having him sneak under it and kill me for it lol. I think it is good against low damage falcon recovery because of the trajectory and he can't tech it.
Multiple bombs is not something you should aim for. Boomerang + bomb is plenty. Also, don't forget your sword - it controls a TON of space. Multiple bombs happens incidentally because bombs bounce off of shields and some attacks (particularly lasers). Don't try to make these things happen, but it is good to know how to handle the bombs when it comes up.
Hunybear
Smash Ace
I made a bomb thread. Everything your looking for is in it. To answer tho Links forward smash throw and tilt throw take the same amount of frames. Item catch on the ground has 1 frame of delay while catching in the air is instant. Multiple bombs arnt really practical.
Plunder
Smash Ace
I just want to say that I love Link's jabs, they are under-appreciated. Both may not the fastest on start up but they both cancel quite fast and have a lot of coverage. If you get really proficient with the CC hold back notch cancel you can rapidly Jab1-Jab2 and only high priority ground moves and transcendent projectiles can penetrate (plus you have a 5 frame option out of CC). Both also pop up and out to set up for other things. I feel like his jabs are better than Marth's because of the speed and arguably better than Samus' Jab1; even though Samus can do more out of it and her WD + Jab is more versatile, it feels like the sword's coverage and disjoint are superior for many situations.
Last edited:
Not sure if it is under-appreciated, but I agree, Link's jabs are great. It is slow compared to other jabs but the reach on it is so nice. Definitely better than marth's jab except in the case where marth's jab hits spacy's side-b lol.
Plunder
Smash Ace
Well i say under-appreciated because it's not used out of CC nearly enough (actually I can't recall any Link mains that consistently know how to use it like Ganons' use their Jab out of CC), and it's not utilized in neutral enough to stuff SHFFL approaches or applying spaced pressure to keep stage control.
I feel like it gets forgotten about a lot in favor of spamming SHFFL or FH Fairs/Nairs and using projectiles (which sometimes lead to Link getting punished because he was too slow to Bomb/Boomerang), and concerning CC I see Link's always desperately try and Up-B or CC D-smash but it never works against fast top tiers because both are too slow.
Last edited:
Ya I can see that. I do try to jab out of CC sometimes but unless I am on point I find it really hard to do at good times. Your opponent can CC punish your jabs, too. CC run away / roll are also solid options.
Anyway, I have not heard anyone say anything bad about Link's jab. Link players love that move lol. Maybe it does get forgotten or end up under-utilised, but it is not under-appreciated. Though I should note that I've had my fair share of bad times when using too many jabs or throwing them out too willingly.
Ganon's jab is faster and has something like spacy f-tilt knockback, so it is much safer and connects in more situations (except where range is a factor).