Q&A Link's Take Over - Q&A and General Link Discussion

[Team Plasma N]

Link's jab is most certainly one of his best moves imo. It's one of his faster grounded options, tends to catch other opponents with its coverage, its endlag is certainly not as bad as Link's other grounded moves, and also jab cancelling is pretty hilarious. I personally find it can be used against ICs' and Jiggs' shield quite nicely.

 

[Plunder]

Ya I can see that. I do try to jab out of CC sometimes but unless I am on point I find it really hard to do at good times. Your opponent can CC punish your jabs, too. CC run away / roll are also solid options.

Anyway, I have not heard anyone say anything bad about Link's jab. Link players love that move lol. Maybe it does get forgotten or end up under-utilised, but it is not under-appreciated. Though I should note that I've had my fair share of bad times when using too many jabs or throwing them out too willingly.

Ganon's jab is faster and has something like spacy f-tilt knockback, so it is much safer and connects in more situations (except where range is a factor).

No, yea I consider Ganon's Jab much better and much more useful against top tiers (that's why I did not compare his like I did Samus and Marth). I just used the CC example since it is sort of similar in that situation and Ganon mains seem to actually use it well.

But the thing is that they cannot react to Link's Jab and even if they did CC the first or even second hit they would still not even be able to react with anything fast enough that could reach. Actual reaction time is 25-30 frames in a match, everything else is pre-emptive or a read (Axe, Armada, Mango and DruggedFox I notice have super human reaction times). Both jobs also do decent damage, so using it in different variates (Jab1/Nair - Jab1/2/1 - Jab1/1 - Jab 1/2/1/2/follow-up) as preemptive anti-approach, out of CC, mid-close pressure, following SHFFL, etc can rack up some damage, control the pace of the match, and even lead to openings.

Now of course you can't just stand there and Jab 1/2 over and over, but you can usually get away with 2 pairs of Jabs (or a 1/2/1) before they can retaliate, often you can see them get pushed back and see an opportunity to land a D-smash, Grab or even slower moves like D-tilt and F smash at that point.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's sort of well used by Link mains but I think it can utilized more and used in ways that could elevate Link's current viability.

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

Human reaction time is something like 0.1 seconds, that translates to 6 frames.

 

[Plunder]

Human reaction time is something like 0.1 seconds, that translates to 6 frames.

This is extremely incorrect

Audio reaction time is faster than visual reaction time and even then the average audio reaction time is around 12 frames, visual averages out to 16-18 frames (usually quoted as a 1/4 of a second).

BUT, and a BIG BUT....that is only when you know what to expect. i.e. wait for a beep and press a button or wait for the screen to flash and press a button. No decision making or option select.

Under the stress of competitive sport and add in the factor of not knowing what to expect reaction time is actually about 25 frames even among the top players. TO further expound you have to also account for the time to punish which = getting there and the time 'til the move comes out.

If reaction time was actually 6 frames no Sheik would ever drop a tech chase ever and every shortened illusion would always be successfully edge-guarded, EVERY SINGLE ROLL WOULD BE PUNISHED very easily.

Just watch any top level match at 60fps and actually analyze the reaction times instead of just throwing out incorrect numbers. (Or you can just simply google/research it too)

Also go ahead and test yourself (there are many sites/programs/apps) I would bet you fall under the average even under perfect conditions. Most of my friends had an 18-20 frame reaction time in an optimal 1-choice anticipation scenario. If you get 6 frames you are not Human.

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

I might be wrong sure, but I actually based it on what I heard from track and field, namely that 0.1 seconds is seen as a good start time. A googling gave me this paper supporting this though: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17127583. It is auditory, the game does however gibe auditory and tactile feedback in many situations.

There probably is data that also tells another story, but since I took this standpoint its not my job to retrieve it.

 

[Rodrick Strickland]

Does Link have no out of shield options? If so, what are they?

 

[Plunder]

Does Link have no out of shield options? If so, what are they?

First result on Google search -

Below is a pic of YL's OoS map , for aerial options just add 2 frames for Link's slower jump squat -

This is the album with each move shown seperate -
http://imgur.com/a/279qb

I might be wrong sure, but I actually based it on what I heard from track and field, namely that 0.1 seconds is seen as a good start time. A googling gave me this paper supporting this though: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17127583. It is auditory, the game does however gibe auditory and tactile feedback in many situations.

There probably is data that also tells another story, but since I took this standpoint its not my job to retrieve it.

Digging that hole still, that last sentence is so childish. Well I guess keep believing something completely wrong, doesn't bother me. Definitely not worth my time explaining the obvious again.

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

Digging that hole still, that last sentence is so childish. Well I guess keep believing something completely wrong, doesn't bother me. Definitely not worth my time explaining the obvious again.

Dude, what I basically asked for is a contradicting article. Please give me one so we can get a true debate here and get the truth out of it. Just as an defense attorney shouldn't say bad things about his client, I can't shoot down my standpoint in this debate. Just provide a contradicting fact and I'm satisfied.

 

[Team Plasma N]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nT2VOLwrqk Just something I remembered in regards to reaction time and input delay. The title says it's for Smash 4, but it applies to Melee as well.

 

[Plunder]

Bingo that's like 1 of 1000s of forms of proof.

He was being pretty generous as well, under any type of stress good or bad actual avg. visual human reaction time is found to be 275 ms which is the number I provided earlier. A ton of peer reviewed studies back that number up (plus pretty much ALL google results)

Add in the input delay and the time it takes for you to identify a move and it's about 25 frames at best for a pure reaction.

Also the number he used in that video was closer to purely audio reaction which really doesn't apply to Melee comparatively. That's why the backpedal point that Lootic tried to shoehorn in late (after I mentioned it) makes no sense. I.e Mango and Leffen both listen to music with headphones and they don't use rumble. Even if you were to use rumble it activates later than you actually getting hit or landing a hit = useless. And Audio? Even if you did listen to it there is a loud crowd or external sounds + BG music = too much noise pollution to rely on. Many do listen for loud obvious audio cues but a lot of moves are quiet or have no sound or the sound comes out later than the move starts.

All of this I discovered early in like 2006 when I realized people kept getting hit by Ganon's Down-B at medium distances. Even still today it works on low-mid level players. It works because they aren't reading me or predicting that I'll do it every so often. It comes out Frame 14 and moves at a moderate fast speed reaching them at around 18-22 frames (that is sort of the cusp of reaction time to shield.)

 

[X WaNtEd X]

I'm doing research on reaction time for the Ganon chaingrab right now. Couldn't help but notice some of the discussion about reaction times itt.

One thing I've found that no one is accounting for both itt and in that video posted is choice reaction time. As the name implies, this is the reaction time associated with two or more choices. The more choices, the harder it is to react. There's some log function that can be used to approximate visual reaction time given the number of choices.

The visual reaction time presented (220 or 275 depending on who you ask) is only accounting for a single visual cue (i.e. the red light turning green in the human benchmark test). But in smash, there are generally multiple options you need to cover when you're in a reaction scenario. So that 275 ms number is a bit misleading.

 

[Plunder]

I'm doing research on reaction time for the Ganon chaingrab right now. Couldn't help but notice some of the discussion about reaction times itt.

One thing I've found that no one is accounting for both itt and in that video posted is choice reaction time. As the name implies, this is the reaction time associated with two or more choices. The more choices, the harder it is to react. There's some log function that can be used to approximate visual reaction time given the number of choices.

The visual reaction time presented (220 or 275 depending on who you ask) is only accounting for a single visual cue (i.e. the red light turning green in the human benchmark test). But in smash, there are generally multiple options you need to cover when you're in a reaction scenario. So that 275 ms number is a bit misleading.

Yes very true I discussed that in my initial response above

This is extremely incorrect

Audio reaction time is faster than visual reaction time and even then the average audio reaction time is around 12 frames, visual averages out to 16-18 frames (usually quoted as a 1/4 of a second).

BUT, and a BIG BUT....that is only when you know what to expect. i.e. wait for a beep and press a button or wait for the screen to flash and press a button. No decision making or option select.

Under the stress of competitive sport and add in the factor of not knowing what to expect reaction time is actually about 25 frames even among the top players. TO further expound you have to also account for the time to punish which = getting there and the time 'til the move comes out.

If reaction time was actually 6 frames no Sheik would ever drop a tech chase ever and every shortened illusion would always be successfully edge-guarded, EVERY SINGLE ROLL WOULD BE PUNISHED very easily.

Just watch any top level match at 60fps and actually analyze the reaction times instead of just throwing out incorrect numbers. (Or you can just simply google/research it too)

Also go ahead and test yourself (there are many sites/programs/apps) I would bet you fall under the average even under perfect conditions. Most of my friends had an 18-20 frame reaction time in an optimal 1-choice anticipation scenario. If you get 6 frames you are not Human.

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nT2VOLwrqk Just something I remembered in regards to reaction time and input delay. The title says it's for Smash 4, but it applies to Melee as well.

Thank you, makes sense. Im guessing listening to your opponents controller to deduct what they are doing is a great way to improve reaction time.

 

[garotis]

Unrelated to the last few posts in this thread, but right now I'm kinda high on painkillers from surgery and I just have to say that I ****ing love bair to turnaround grab.

Also, I think that Yoshi vs Link is heavily in Link's favor due to Link's nair hitbox duration being able to stop any waveland nonsense from Yoshi.

 

[Plunder]

Yes but Yoshi can just instantly retaliate with Nair (often even with out using DJ armor)

Link's soft Nair vs, Yoshi's beastly 14% Nair every trade = Yoshi wins

I don't overall how it goes but I think Yoshi might be able to power through Link's bombs, definitely boomerang and arrow with his DJ approaches. Kinda like how he plows through Falco's lasers like they are nothing

Also Yoshi has a sick combo game on Link. I think I recall SAUS or one of the other Link mains saying Yoshi is a kind of hard MU for Link.

 

[Rodrick Strickland]

Yes but Yoshi can just instantly retaliate with Nair (often even with out using DJ armor)

Link's soft Nair vs, Yoshi's beastly 14% Nair every trade = Yoshi wins

I don't overall how it goes but I think Yoshi might be able to power through Link's bombs, definitely boomerang and arrow with his DJ approaches. Kinda like how he plows through Falco's lasers like they are nothing

Also Yoshi has a sick combo game on Link. I think I recall SAUS or one of the other Link mains saying Yoshi is a kind of hard MU for Link.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtI2L_3me-4

 

[Plunder]

I remember watching that a while ago, I'm a IE fan (really like his analysis vids)

That's pretty much how it seems to go. Although I think IE is an intelligent capable player, aMSa definitely is in a whole other league as a player so it puts heavy bias and kills most of the MU knowledge that can be gleamed. (IE should have been using more SHFFL Fairs, Bairs, Jabs, and spaced F-smashes for mix up)

I'd like to see Lord HDL in his prime Link phase or SAUS against aMSa, that would be fun and educational.

 

[SAUS]

I think Link's dair is secretly really good against Yoshi. It beats his armour rather early and Yoshi basically has to get a timed up-air in to beat it.

Yoshi has good combos against Link and Perhapsman is pretty good at edge guarding me.

The big problem I see is that Link already sucks against CC and Yoshi's armour is basically like CC in the air. Link doesn't seem to have any good followups off of grab - I think maybe d-throw -> up-b works at something like 80-100, but otherwise Yoshi can nair or armour through anything you try to do.

Most of Link's non-spacies combos work because there is no escape from a bomb + up-air or fair setup when the victim is in the air. Yoshi's double jump and rather fast air speed get him out of a lot of combos. You basically have to win an awkward mixup against the armour and then you can juggle him like other characters.

It's an awkward matchup and seems like it would be hard if you played against really good Yoshis.

 

[Thor]

I think Link's dair is secretly really good against Yoshi. It beats his armour rather early and Yoshi basically has to get a timed up-air in to beat it.

Yoshi has good combos against Link and Perhapsman is pretty good at edge guarding me.

The big problem I see is that Link already sucks against CC and Yoshi's armour is basically like CC in the air. Link doesn't seem to have any good followups off of grab - I think maybe d-throw -> up-b works at something like 80-100, but otherwise Yoshi can nair or armour through anything you try to do.

Most of Link's non-spacies combos work because there is no escape from a bomb + up-air or fair setup when the victim is in the air. Yoshi's double jump and rather fast air speed get him out of a lot of combos. You basically have to win an awkward mixup against the armour and then you can juggle him like other characters.

It's an awkward matchup and seems like it would be hard if you played against really good Yoshis.

Don't we just uthrow uair Yoshi? IDK if it true combos but I can get uthrow uair uair on Sheik around 40 (or maybe it's 50 or something but it's not that high a percent) pretty consistently. Uthrow isn't weight-dependent (I think?) so I thought we could do this? Or is it gonna get DJ armor'd?

If so, shouldn't uair still break armor around... 60? Armor is directional and uair sends upward so it breaks the armor sooner than other similar KB aerials would...

 

[SAUS]

Don't we just uthrow uair Yoshi? IDK if it true combos but I can get uthrow uair uair on Sheik around 40 (or maybe it's 50 or something but it's not that high a percent) pretty consistently. Uthrow isn't weight-dependent (I think?) so I thought we could do this? Or is it gonna get DJ armor'd?

If so, shouldn't uair still break armor around... 60? Armor is directional and uair sends upward so it breaks the armor sooner than other similar KB aerials would...

That is not how I understand Yoshi's DJ armour. I heard it is just the same knockback but subtract 100. I think the problem with Yoshi's armour is that it is technically a frame 1 option. I should probably test it frame by frame or something, but I think Shiek just can't escape since air dodge intangibility happens on something like frame 4 earliest (DJ or wiggle and then air dodge).

I think you are correct that up-throw isn't weight dependent.

 

[Plunder]

Yep , I had posted the throw data earlier only Links dThrow is weight dependent.

And im sure yoshi DJ armor is frame 1 actionable which is why he can easily retaliation nair and even uair.

DJ armor breaks at 120 iirc and its independent of direction, but upwards moves tend to have very high kb to fight gravity (and vice versa for downwards or shallow angle moves)

The DJ armor also just act like a humongous weight increase so the more its broken the further a breaking move can send away at higher percents.

 

[Thor]

That is not how I understand Yoshi's DJ armour. I heard it is just the same knockback but subtract 100. I think the problem with Yoshi's armour is that it is technically a frame 1 option. I should probably test it frame by frame or something, but I think Shiek just can't escape since air dodge intangibility happens on something like frame 4 earliest (DJ or wiggle and then air dodge).

I think you are correct that up-throw isn't weight dependent.

I was told it's directional in that it somehow resists downward moves more strongly than upward ones.

Example: Falco's shine will break Yoshi DJ armor at 0, but Falcon Punch will not at 8%. I also believe Yoshi can armor Falco dair at over 60% [it was hard for me to test moves that aren't fast as one person and I knew about Falco shine beforehand], and I doubt Falco shine has more KB at 0% than his dair does at 60% [but I have been wrong before...]

 

[Plunder]

I was told it's directional in that it somehow resists downward moves more strongly than upward ones.

Example: Falco's shine will break Yoshi DJ armor at 0, but Falcon Punch will not at 8%. I also believe Yoshi can armor Falco dair at over 60% [it was hard for me to test moves that aren't fast as one person and I knew about Falco shine beforehand], and I doubt Falco shine has more KB at 0% than his dair does at 60% [but I have been wrong before...]

Why is that hard to believe. Like I said above you have to think about gravity.

Throw a ball up in the air....or just lightly toss it down.

One takes a lot more effort and one takes much less to send equivalent distances.

Falcos shine has a massive amount of upwards initial KB. Just look at the KB data for all moves and you'll see the trend.

 

[Thor]

Why is that hard to believe. Like I said above you have to think about gravity.

Throw a ball up in the air....or just lightly toss it down.

One takes a lot more effort and one takes much less to send equivalent distances.

Falcos shine has a massive amount of upwards initial KB. Just look at the KB data for all moves and you'll see the trend.

If real life physics was a good analog for Melee, all the characters would fall at the same rates [at least all the human-like ones would]. They don't.

Falco's shine has much more BKB and less scaling than I expected [and Falcon Punch less BKB, similarly]. Apparently the Yoshi main who told me about it was misinformed and gave that misinformation to me as well.

 

[Plunder]

If real life physics was a good analog for Melee, all the characters would fall at the same rates [at least all the human-like ones would]. They don't.

Falco's shine has much more BKB and less scaling than I expected [and Falcon Punch less BKB, similarly]. Apparently the Yoshi main who told me about it was misinformed and gave that misinformation to me as well.

Wasn't this already discussed in the matchup thread for link about Yoshis weight and how direction doesn't matter. I thought you were part of that conversation, and the same answers and info were discussed

Anyway I don't think I should have to point out that Melee isnt 100% like real life, but gravity is one of the very few things that are similar.

To touch on what you just said though, Melee fall speed can sort of draw comparisons to real life physics. You can think of it as air resistance or imagine them being under water and bouyancy being similar to that in game metric.

In conclusion: Yoshi is kinda annoying to fight, but he makes cute sounds.

 

[Thor]

Wasn't this already discussed in the matchup thread for link about Yoshis weight and how direction doesn't matter. I thought you were part of that conversation, and the same answers and info were discussed

Anyway I don't think I should have to point out that Melee isnt 100% like real life, but gravity is one of the very few things that are similar.

To touch on what you just said though, Melee fall speed can sort of draw comparisons to real life physics. You can think of it as air resistance or imagine them being under water and bouyancy being similar to that in game metric.

In conclusion: Yoshi is kinda annoying to fight, but he makes cute sounds.

That didn't make any sense.

And no, I was not.

 

[Plunder]

That didn't make any sense.

And no, I was not.

Dang bro you got a bad memory then.

Here's the post and the conversation right here, you even liked it. What Wreckarooni said was a direct response to you.

http://smashboards.com/threads/link-matchups-thread.392296/page-4#post-19517790

And if you understand real life physics, well what I just said absolutely makes sense. No need to be contrarian or abrasive for the sake of it.

 

[Thor]

Dang bro you got a bad memory then.

Here's the post and the conversation right here, you even liked it. What Wreckarooni said was a direct response to you.

http://smashboards.com/threads/link-matchups-thread.392296/page-4#post-19517790

And if you understand real life physics, well what I just said absolutely makes sense. No need to be contrarian or abrasive for the sake of it.

I actually tend to have an exceptional memory, but I don't remember that. It was a year ago, but it's still odd I forgot.

And no it really doesn't make sense. Things accelerate uniformly. Drag is something that reduces fallspeed, but there's no good reason Marth falls so much slower than Roy that could be explained using physics. The biggest stretch I could think of would be that it's somehow all underwater and buoyancy of their swords/clothes is different enough to make a marked difference, but I think we can both agree that's not really like real-life for a variety of reasons.

This is also a mostly pointless discussion, because its accuracy is of little relevance to whether characters feel well-made [they might not in Melee from a balance perspective, but they do in Smash 4, yet it's quite clear that Rosa/Fox/Sheik/Pikachu/Luigi all having different fallspeeds is necessary for their designs]. It makes sense in game even if it's not accurate - and even if it didn't, it's not like we can change it.

 

[Hunybear]

So every puff I play does a baits with bairs from the edge and pounds from the edge... Does anyone know why that is because I punish it every time. it's completely not safe right? Also whenever they stop because they get punished puff starts ledge hoping away and regrabing above stage. I just have to walk forward and they fly into an up B.

 

[SAUS]

So every puff I play does a baits with bairs from the edge and pounds from the edge... Does anyone know why that is because I punish it every time. it's completely not safe right? Also whenever they stop because they get punished puff starts ledge hoping away and regrabing above stage. I just have to walk forward and they fly into an up B.

It's even super easy to punish with Link since you can stand out of range and throw things. Maybe it's a matchup thing or maybe the puff players don't know what to do lol.

 

[Hunybear]

It's even super easy to punish with Link since you can stand out of range and throw things. Maybe it's a matchup thing or maybe the puff players don't know what to do lol.

Probably they don't know what to do. There's no real puffs in my region so i take to net play for he XP. Even then most of them are bleh.

 

[CnB | Chandy]

Can you use well-cooked bombs to improve Link's defensive ledge options?

As we know, when on the ledge, you can drop from ledge, pull a bomb, and then up-B back. When on the ledge with a bomb, you can drop from ledge, double jump, and plant a bomb on the ground right at the ledge and then regrab ledge. Finally, we know that you can ledge hop and grab that bomb with Z on the first frame after you let go of ledge and become actionable. So, would it be possible to wait until the bomb's fuse gets shorter while DJ ledge stalling and remaining fully invincible, then planting the bomb and regrabbing it as it's about to explode, ledgedashing, and then having the bomb explode during the intangible frames during the ledge dash, protecting Link but leaving him free to put out another attack or shield or roll or something because he's not holding a bomb?

It would be super hard to do and it would take a hot minute to set up, but it seems like if you managed to execute it properly it would be super safe as a ledge option. You could also just ledge dash with a cooked bombed in hand and then input your option the frame after it explodes during your ledge invincibility, but that seems a little more limited to me because having a bomb in hand limits options.

If nothing else it would be super cool. Having a bomb on ledge would be even more valuable than ever.

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

Will travel to Vegas on Tuseday and participate at EVO if anyone wants to trade tips and tricks there.

 

[Thor]

Will travel to Vegas on Tuseday and participate at EVO if anyone wants to trade tips and tricks there.

Won't be at EVO but best of luck!

Not really the right thread for it, but if anyone wants to watch a 2v1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hlxt1IbRg-k&t=12m40s

[The whole set is pretty good but the timestamp is where the 2v1 starts. Some missed L/ledge cancels but if the job gets done...]

 

[Hunybear]

Fun fact of the day that I just learned. Every character can catch items within the first 3 frames of their air dodge... Except Link. He uses hit tether instead.

 

[Rodrick Strickland]

Do you people think Link's hylian shield is useful?

 

[Hunybear]

Do you people think Link's hylian shield is useful?

I think it is. Good for blocking needles.

 

[link7]

Do you people think Link's hylian shield is useful?

Not really.

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

Do you people think Link's hylian shield is useful?

Yes, occasionally. I use it to block my own projectiles if they get reflected. I also use it, very rarely though, as a gimmicky but extremely satisfying way to handle falcos ledgejump double laser.

Ive started to experiment on using it to handle ICs ice blocks. It seems like it is extremely reliable for this actually.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Ive started to experiment on using it to handle ICs ice blocks. It seems like it is extremely reliable for this actually.

I never thought of that. I assume you just crouch and it should block them right? I'll see how it works in neutral against some of these netplay Ice Climbers ...