Link's Problematic Move Discussion: Diddy's Bananas

[Rizen]

I hate Falco's reflector.

^^^^^^^^^^

 

[IYM!]

i have a frien than dont like his refelctor (he is a little stupid)

all i time i am say him "but your F****** reflector is the best of all star fox crew!!!!!!!!!!!"


maybe a mind trck could be usefull, like Z drop catch Atack

is only an idea

 

[Ryos4]

i think wolf has the best reflector. Invincibility frames and big enough hit box around him to defend him in the air and on the ground against a lot of the characters without long enough disjointed hitboxes. Not to mention the hit stun is long enough for him to pull off a smash on the ground and probably set up an aerial while in the air.

Falco's reflector in my eyes is only really good as a reflector, it cant really set anything else up with all the ending lag it has. Though it can be comboed into, but im pretty sure falco usually has better options.

 

[IYM!]

im not totaly sure, but falco reflector give him a little of high when he try to recover ( he need do his second jump first to get boost) i repeat, I AM NOT TOTALY SURE


about wolf reflector, he has a problem, when his move start wolf has invincibility frames, but in that instant he cant reflect a projectile

 

[Ryos4]

That may be true he cant reflect at that moment. But they go right through him anyway, the bombs might cause problems for him if he isn't quick enough.

This is all just speculation but...
For Falco's Reflector in general is much more dangerous to Link as a reflector and as a short range semi projectile. If your close enough he can both reflect your projectile with added power and tack on a few extra% from the reflectors hitbox itself. It also shortens the amount of time Link has to react to his reflected projectile. When combined with his SH blaster game, it could make his camp really dangerous.

And as said earlier can pretty much out range anything Link can throw at Falco. However, i dont think many falcos will actually spam the reflector for damage just because of its high risk, low reward. It may stop projectile and Zair approach fairly effectively, but if Link manages to shield or air dodge through it. Link will probably get a free grab, jab combo, air dodge to Zair, or possibly even a nice Smash. I don't know if a Falco would willingly risk that.

I think the best bet would be to avoid any charged arrows what so ever, even if hes knocked off stage. Unless he has lost his second jump. He has way too much mobility with his reflector. Dont spam the gale boomerang as a recovery if Falco just waits on stage for you to get back, as it could kill you. I think the best bet for recovery would be to just toss a bomb at him. If he reflects it, theres a good chance its coming back to you which can only provide a boost for Link, and possibly save you at high percents, best to DI away from stage to avoid stage spikes and flying into Falco's anything. And as Sasook said in his recovery guide, its sometimes better to take a few more damage then to be risking death by gimps by recovering low. Low percents might set you up for an easy spike by Falco.

Thats sorta my thoughts on Falco's Reflector. But to be honest i haven't really run into reflector using Falco beyond jab combo>Reflector or long range reflection.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Nothing we have outanges it, however, Link can punish it if he shield it.

I prefer boomerang throws against reflector happy Falcos, since reflected boomerang is pretty harmless.

 

[Scabe]

Well if we shield his reflector while holding a bomb, what can we do then?

 

[Huggles828]

If we perfect shield it we can bombsmash. It'd be close if we didn't perfect shield it (shield lag's like 8 frames-ish, right? And fsmash is 14? Does that sound right? What is the lag on Falco's reflector if he misses?) We could probably jump and throw the bomb at his feet or on top of him too, although throwing the bomb straight ahead will just blow us up. This is all also theorycraft since I don't know any very good Falcos either.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Shields can drop in 6 frames, but shield stun adds to it, so 8 is about right.

I believe if you try throwing a bomb if you close enough will work, but you'll both explode. If the Reflector is infront or on top of you the moment you throw it the game will think you hit the reflector, bounce off, detect Link's hurt box and explode.

 

[Cutter Eagle]

It's rare when I see someone do that with link vs a reflector though. Can I also add that wolfs reflector is way more annoying falcos (on top of the invincibility frames wolfs reflector can guard against fsmashes and do some dmg too. (i know that ur gonna say no one with smash balls, I do sometimes and it's useful)

 

[Scabe]

Actually I think it's just Falco's reflector that I'm having trouble with, I think out of all the reflectors, his is the most annoying to Link's projectiles. Apart from that the other reflectors aren't too bad. We should move on to something. Perhaps Diddy's Bananas.

 

[Ryos4]

How does wolf's reflector not bother you?

 

[quirkynature]

How does wolf's reflector not bother you?

That's easy. Don't play against a Wolf.

Can't we just bomb the hell out of a reflector-happy Wolf, too? Or arrow cancel? Will that reflect in a perfectly straight line or angle off somewhere? At least we can Z-air him off. Aren't Wolf's and Fox's reflectors similar? Couldn't we adopt the same strategy against Wolf's that we use against' Fox's?

 

[Ryos4]

Not really in my opinion. Longer range and invincibility frames make it much more dangerous the foxes. There are wolfs out there who will constantly be in your face using reflectors to stun you and then probably smash you. Offensive or defensive, it can be very dangerous.

Anyway, wolfs reflector isn't dangerous as a reflector but just as a quick stun that wolf can work in a bunch of moves before and after it.

Think of it as invincible bombing with added combo potential and without the effort.

 

[quirkynature]

I'm guessing it comes out in frame 1, given its invincibility frames.

I think I'll try out a Wolf tomorrow.

 

[Scabe]

Even though we're talking about Wolf's Reflector I kinda sorta updated it to Diddy's Bananas.

 

[Huggles828]

Wolf's reflector makes him invincible frames 1 - 6 (but doesn't reflect) and on frame 7 he loses invincibility, it becomes a normal reflector, and it hits you for 3 or 4 damage. It's a wonderful attack that I use a lot when I play Wolf. It's multipurpose; it works as a pseudo counterattack, it works aggressively, it usually stuns enemies enough to give Wolf the edge, it's a reflector (duh), and Wolf doesn't lose any of his insane mobility in the air so he can use it moving sideways, falling, or rising (top 5 air speed I'm pretty sure. Wolf moves in the air about the same speed he runs, and like Link, he runs almost the same speed he walks, although he walks faster too). Note that those invincible frames mean even if he doesn't reflect it back at you, he takes zero damage. If you bomb his feet and he times it right, he won't get hurt. If you arrow cancel, as long as he reacts, the worst that can happen for him is he's invincible, the arrow disappears, and his reflector goes down with him still moving around while you're planted on the ground after your arrow cancel.

I think Falco has the worst reflector of the three (for Link to have to deal with), then Wolf, then Fox. They're all pretty rough on Link though, just in different ways.

 

[QUIVO]

Link's bombs should beat diddy's bananas and peanut gun if you throw them at the same time.

 

[Rizen]

Does Wolf's reflector give invincibility or armor frame where he still takes damage?
Link has the only 2 hit Zair, I love boasting that, and it out-spaces wolf. We should be able to combo from the second hit.

Wolf's reflector is the best but Falco's is the hardest to deal with because it matches Link's Zair and combined with his other moves lets Falco space Link at close, mid and far distances.

 

[Zeallyx]

Z catch->raep

 

[Huggles828]

Does Wolf's reflector give invincibility or armor frame where he still takes damage?

It's invincibility. He doesn't take damage at all.

 

[Ryos4]

I play too heavily ground based as Link. Banana's cause me so much trouble.

Though i find it best to basically use the fact that Diddy relies so heavily on bananas to be good and just bait him with them. If the Diddy really loves the bananas you know exactly where he is going to run to every time he is without one.

Other then that probably banana sliding would be a good use, doing like your basic Item techs, as well as combining them with like Grabs and Smashes. But i dont think its ever a good idea to just throw the banana back at diddy. They usually master the art of picking up that its just like giving it back to him.

I could also see playing keep away with his bananas, but as said a single banana in diddy's hands is hardly less dangerous then 2.

Best bet against these are to pick a stage with platforms that the banana's can land on once they hit you. BF or YI i found to be the most effective. Though be careful as Diddy can still do a 1 Banana lock on Link by Rising Dthrow the banana to catching/picking up off platforms. It looks rather hard to do consistently but if they can... Well good luck.

 

[IYM!]

i think we need do a areal tactic, Nair and Bair are fast and could stop diddy in the air and skip his bananas

 

[quirkynature]

i think we need do a areal tactic, Nair and Bair are fast and could stop diddy in the air and skip his bananas

I don't know about that. Getting Link in the air against high tier characters usually means you're asking to get *****. Sure, B-air and N-air are quite fast but Diddy has his own aerials to counter Links'.

For example, is you're going purely speed wise (and I know it's not a very realistic viewpoint), Link's N-air's hitbox is out on frame 6 (or is it frame 7, in conjunction with the jab?). Diddy's B-air is out on frame 5, F-air on frame 6 and, here's the kicker (excuse the pun), U-air on frame 3. A SH U-air beats everything in Link's arsenal speed-wise. The fastest we get is frame 6/7.

Having seen a few vids from the Diddy boards, I'd say picking them up (as suggested) and using Z-air instead. If Link were a mid-tiered character, I'd say holding the bananas would make this fight even. He's not, so monopolizing (or keeping them with us as much as possible) would make it less-unwinnable.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Z catch->raep

Learn how to do this effectively, it is important against Diddy.

 

[IYM!]

I don't know about that. Getting Link in the air against high tier characters usually means you're asking to get *****. Sure, B-air and N-air are quite fast but Diddy has his own aerials to counter Links'.

For example, is you're going purely speed wise (and I know it's not a very realistic viewpoint), Link's N-air's hitbox is out on frame 6 (or is it frame 7, in conjunction with the jab?). Diddy's B-air is out on frame 5, F-air on frame 6 and, here's the kicker (excuse the pun), U-air on frame 3. A SH U-air beats everything in Link's arsenal speed-wise. The fastest we get is frame 6/7.

Having seen a few vids from the Diddy boards, I'd say picking them up (as suggested) and using Z-air instead. If Link were a mid-tiered character, I'd say holding the bananas would make this fight even. He's not, so monopolizing (or keeping them with us as much as possible) would make it less-unwinnable.

... i see, well only was an idea i realy dont have experiencia in this match.

maybe a close range combat will be efective, we have good prority, range and strenght and that will help to avoid the bananas spaming, this tactic was efective with samus in a friendlies i played yesterday (thanks samus boards LoL), maybe also works with Diddy,

 

[quirkynature]

... i see, well only was an idea i realy dont have experiencia in this match.

Neither do I. Come to think of it, I don't even play a Diddy CPU. I wasn't shooting your idea down. For all I know, SH aerials are just what Link needs in this match.

 

[Ryos4]

Just being close to diddy wont really help. Diddy has some pretty decent tilt attacks that combo really well. Also if your close enough he can just dthrow the banana into an F or Dsmash pretty quickly. If you happen to be close enough for the banana to make you slip your gonna get punished.

When playing any character against diddy. I like to apply mid range pressure if possible. Stay far enough away that you have time to react to the bananas when they are thrown. But close enough that you can possibly prevent him from pulling or picking up bananas with projectile harass.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

There is lag to him glide tossing if you can time something right. If Diddy glide tosses right into me when I'm Lucario I could usually fire an aura sphere off to catch him on the toss, this relies more on prediction rather than reaction.

I'm not sure if Link has anything as good as a punishes for a glide toss. It's even harder when landing is a hastle with banana's flying around. Best I could think of is bombs, which we get a favorable % trade.

 

[IYM!]

the bananas are so anoyning, i agree with Ryos4, if we are at mid range would be some dificult for him hurt us, our swor is pretty long, an we can stop his arial approaches with our Zair, our boomerang go fast and can stop him in the ground, only use arrows when you are far of him and for gimp him

 

[NOmoreTAS]

HAHA
Link can counter pick ICs, Link is way uber.

If it is a tourneyplay ban final destination. Try just to pick BattleField (best stage in my opinion against them with link).

Now how to beat em:
Make sure that you always have a bomb in your hand (ALWAYS; seriously always), so if you get grabbed the bomb will explode, also the bomb ***** ICs neutral B. You can use platforms to get a bomb couse they cannot grab in the air.
NEVER use arrows. It's literaly USELESS (against em).
The boomerang can separate them.
In low % the bomb can be combined into Grab (this is cool because you can separate them easily if you throw Nana/Popo Quickly, in a good direction)
Using the Z-air hanging a bomb is really cool, because is offensive and deffensive at the same time.
Dacus is not very useful.
Use safe combos.
And if your opponent is going to Down throw to spike you, do a super DI to the edge and press L/R to tech.

I think thats all.

 

[Ryos4]

HAHA
Link can counter pick ICs, Link is way uber.

If it is a tourneyplay ban final destination. Try just to pick BattleField (best stage in my opinion against them with link).

Now how to beat em:
Make sure that you always have a bomb in your hand (ALWAYS; seriously always), so if you get grabbed the bomb will explode, also the bomb ***** ICs neutral B. You can use platforms to get a bomb couse they cannot grab in the air.
NEVER use arrows. It's literaly USELESS (against em).
The boomerang can separate them.
In low % the bomb can be combined into Grab (this is cool because you can separate them easily if you throw Nana/Popo Quickly, in a good direction)
Using the Z-air hanging a bomb is really cool, because is offensive and deffensive at the same time.
Dacus is not very useful.
Use safe combos.
And if your opponent is going to Down throw to spike you, do a super DI to the edge and press L/R to tech.

I think thats all.

Im confused... Why is this in here? Did the subject change when i wasn't looking? Seems to be more like it belongs in the match up thread. As its hardly about a specific move, more like the character in general.

 

[quirkynature]

Why is this in here?

Welcome to the Link boards, NOmoreTAS. Please post in the appropriate thread. If you're here to stay, you might as well introduce yourself in the Introductions thread.

 

[IYM!]

hey what about an update???, Diddy kong disscusion finished long time ago, and about IC , we're almost finishing the discussion about them,. or maybe discuse here his annoy CG

 

[Ryos4]

Maybe CG in general is an okay idea. We could find out how to get out of it, and at what percent its possible to get out.

 

[Zatchiel]

Maybe CG in general is an okay idea. We could find out how to get out of it, and at what percent its possible to get out.

IMO, if you don't have a Bomb in hand, you're not getting out of IC CG, if it's done with no mishaps.

 

[Ryos4]

I mean for all characters but that is true if ICs dont mess up you're dead.

 

[Zatchiel]

I mean for all characters but that is true if ICs dont mess up you're dead.

Oh, well, different CGs require different escape methods. Bomb should let you out of all of them, but for stuff like Falco CG, i normally try to Nair when they miss the grab. Otherwise, i try to Jab or something.

 

[IYM!]

Oh, well, different CGs require different escape method.

this is true, we need talk about a one character first, maybe IC, we are discusse that character in the MU threat

 

[Ryos4]

Oh, well, different CGs require different escape methods.

This is exactly what i mean. Go through each chain grab. lol.