Meta Link's Metagame Thread (Informative Quotes Can Be Found in the OP)

[Stryker95]

I realize the jab jab to stuff isn't real, but I was playing against a Lucas player and he said he was unable to escape from Jab 1 > Jab 2 > Up B with all known escape options (DJ, fast fall shield, aerial, airdodge). I imagine its because he is too floaty to fall and shield, has slow aerials, and has a slow double jump making it difficult or impossible for him to escape. Can anyone verify? There are probably more characters like this.

I also experimented with jab 1 > delayed jab 2 > Up B, it seems to work well as a mixup on characters that are normally able to fall and shield before 100%, but can start jumping out at later percents. For example, Diddy Kong can start jumping out of Jab Jab Up B after ~100% (before that he can shield), but if you delay the second jab, he ends up closer to the floor meaning he cannot jump out and has to rely on shield. If your opponent is not aware of the mixup or doesn't react, it can be a good kill confirm.

Lucas can jump out of Jab Jab Up-B at all times, his jump is not too slow, tell your friend he is doing it wrong. Or just let him stew and get frustrated.

As far as the mixup, at least in that example, it can work as Diddy will land and have to go through jumpsquat frames before jumping and will get hit. Assuming the opponent doesn't mash jump as soon as jab 1 connects, thus jumping away from jab 2.

 

[Deleted member]

I realize the jab jab to stuff isn't real, but I was playing against a Lucas player and he said he was unable to escape from Jab 1 > Jab 2 > Up B with all known escape options (DJ, fast fall shield, aerial, airdodge). I imagine its because he is too floaty to fall and shield, has slow aerials, and has a slow double jump making it difficult or impossible for him to escape. Can anyone verify? There are probably more characters like this.

I also experimented with jab 1 > delayed jab 2 > Up B, it seems to work well as a mixup on characters that are normally able to fall and shield before 100%, but can start jumping out at later percents. For example, Diddy Kong can start jumping out of Jab Jab Up B after ~100% (before that he can shield), but if you delay the second jab, he ends up closer to the floor meaning he cannot jump out and has to rely on shield. If your opponent is not aware of the mixup or doesn't react, it can be a good kill confirm.

Jab Jab is never true on anyone ever. But there are some interesting things you could do. If the opponent never tries to jump out it's free, if the opponent mashes jump after jab 1 you can delay the hit of jab 2 by about 1 frame to catch their jump and then follow up is free. If you catch someone jumping from ledge with jab jab so that they don't have an aerial jump it's free. If the opponent jumps out of it and in the same way everyime you can go for an Uair, but it's in no way true. Also anyone with a move faster then 8 frames can beat it simply by attacking you, if you read this you might be able to shield it and OoS if they end up in enough landing lag...
Jab Jab really is not that good, it's awful in neutral and most other situations assuming the opponent is able to jump out of it. But it can be a good "pocket ace" to pull out at random to take a stock when you've not used it before.
And no, also Lucas can get out of it, it's easier for him then it is for Shiek.

 

[Knife8193]

Thanks guys, I guess I'll just have to focus on reading jab breaking habits more or just settle for the 10% and stage control from the full jabs. A surprising amount of people suck at escaping this.

 

[Stryker95]

From the desk of @ScizorVX

This is when soft nair starts to put people in kb and its difficult to tech making it easy to arrow lock [into] charged fsmash/spin.
These are based in training mode but the only real difference in an actual match is like a 2% difference.

Spoiler: Nairrow lock percents (Nair puts them in tumble)

Bowser 91+
Donkey Kong 90+
King Dedede 86+
Ganondorf 85+
Charizard 85+
Samus 85+
Bowser Jr 81+
Ike 81+
Rob 81+
Wario 81+
Link 80+
Falcon 80+
Ryu 80+
Cloud 80+ with or without limit
Corrin 80+
Yoshi 80+
Lucario 80+
Mega man 80+
Villager 80+
Shulk 80+ (very strict timing)
Doctor Mario 80+
Mario 80+
Luigi 80+
Pit/Dark pit 80+
Greninja 80+
Wii fit Trainer 80+
Roy 76+
Ness 76+
Robin 76+
Sonic 76+
Lucas 76+
Pac-man 76+
Duck hunt 75+
Fox 75+
Zelda 75+
Diddy Kong 75+
Falco 75+
Marth/Lucina 75+
Toon link 75+
Bayonetta 75+
Peach 75+
Palutena 75+
Little mac 71+
Meta Knight 70+
Pikachu 70+
Sheik 70+
Zss 70+
Kirby 70+
Mewtwo 70+
Olimar 70+
Rosalina 70+
Game and watch 70+
Jigglypuff 65+

Once again, thanks to @ScizorVX for the information.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Anyone who refers to 'Jab 2' as 'Jab Jab' will be exiled to Jabu-Jabu's belly.

 

[TheBiscuitKing]

Fox Is Openly Deceptive Jab jab is my favorite tho

 

[Nimious]

Jab Jab meta needs to be advanced into the mental game stage.

I believe its ability to trigger players extends beyond just the Link board and will now call out jab jab whenever I do it.

 

[Nd_KakaKhakis]

Sup Metagame Thread.

Do you hate not knowing how to follow up optimally from downthrows?
Oh wait Fox already did that and wrote out all of the percentages...

Well then.. Do you hate going to page 35 of this thread and reading the down-throw true combo percentages over and over again?

Well i've made a handy little re-formatting of that data into an excel file! Obviously not all of the information is there and even if there's an amazing setup that works a ton I excluded it. This file is focusing on True Combos.

Take a look I hope you enjoy the simplified, more digestable format.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VC-qvEWaQhgqR7MfMMGaTNyMiTQzXWDJGXpR__Uuzks/edit#gid=0

 

[Nd_KakaKhakis]

I have a question I'd like someone to investigate for me.

Is it possible to get a guaranteed grounded footstool off of the "reset get-up animation"?

If you can get a reset very close to your opponent (and at low enough percent) I've been thinking that the optimal conversion you can do is.
Full Hop Bomb Pull -> Grounded footstool -> bomb toss down -> footstool Nair.

And if your opponent is right in the corner you can combo grounded footstool to bomb toss down into dair for a spike.
The best (and maybe only) starter for this setup is a bair2 where you are moving towards your opponent with a lot of momentum.
Then you turn around and hit them with an arrow. The goal is to minimize the horizontal distance between you and your opponent so you can FH bomb pull and land on their head quickly.

But before I explore the percents and nuances of the setup. I want to know if its possible to get a guaranteed grounded footstool off of reset get-up.

If someone could investigate that for me I'd really appreciate it.

 

[Stryker95]

Is it possible to get a guaranteed grounded footstool off of the "reset get-up animation"?

No, it is not guaranteed. The opponent can input anything before the footstool, if timed right they cannot run away from it but can shield, which results in a guaranteed shield footstool, probably not what you want though, sorry.

Full Hop Bomb Pull -> Grounded footstool -> bomb toss down -> footstool Nair.

Just so you know, normal getup FAF is 30, bomb pull FAF is 40. The time from once whatever move you used to cause the reset hits to the time the getup begins is roughly 40ish frames. If that helps.

 

[Stryker95]

Double post but it has been a few days and something entirely different.

A few days ago a reddit user mentioned that Bayonetta could get a boost out of landing lag if she walked a little and then inputted a move. Foxy looked into it and found how it all worked and made the following post:

Well this is interesting..

I looked into this briefly to better understand the mechanics behind it, and I believe all that matters here is that the character walks (not pivot then walk and not dash) out of a specific amount of landing lag (specific to that character) with some momentum already carrying them in the direction they want to walk, then doing a specific action (that allows for sliding e.g. grab or shield) on a specific frame of the walk (different timing gives different length slides).

So with Fox for example, you don't need to do an aerial at all; the aerial just makes it so that he gets hard landing lag out of a SH (even when the aerial autocancels, so SH Uair and SH Bair will both work just fine). Otherwise, an empty FH (just for example) will also work just fine. Once you've guaranteed the hard landing lag and you've landed with momentum carrying you forward etc, it's all about the timing of (in this case) the grab. To give you an idea, grabbing on the first two frames of the walk didn't appear to have any real effect. Then from frame 3 of the walk Fox would get a notable extra slide, increasingly more notable with every frame, with frame 7 being the longest, and frame 8 taking it back to no slide.
[Also the shield slide thing works for Fox too.. just less pronounced than the grab slide.]

Bayo's work's slightly differently. You can't do it out of hard landing lag, instead it needs to be done out of a certain amount of aerial landing lag, with the Nair's 10 frames of landing lag being pretty much optimal. So e.g. you can just Nair at around the peak of a SH so that you land with Nair without having to hold A or anything; jut so long as you get the 10 frames of landing lag which can of course be made easier in some instances by holding A. Grabbing on frame 3 of the walk will give you a small slide, grabbing on frame 4 of the walk will give you a large slide, etc up to frame 7 giving the longest slide, while grabbing on frame 8 of the walk will result in no slide. Because of the differences in landing lags between Fox and Bayo in the two examples as indicated by the OP, obviously the execution timing for the grab after landing will differ even though they have the same frame requirements for interrupting their walk.

The difference between the two had me curious though. Why was it that Fox could use hard landing lag whereas Bayo required aerial landing lag?

I tested all of Bayo's aerials. On top of landing with Nair, it works for landing with Bair, Uair and Fair too, but to a lesser extent. With landing in Fair's landing lag, you need to grab on either frame 6 or 7 of the walk, otherwise it won't let you slide at all. And this makes sense I guess because you're stuck in landing lag for longer. The same seems to apply to Bair and Uair; it works, but you just have a slightly smaller window to grab in.

I believe that there must be a certain sweet-spot amount of lag which will differ for each character (that is, each character this actually applies to). Just enough lag to cause the walk to start up faster, but not too much so as to overlap too much with the window in which you can cancel the walk to get the slide.

Everyone should probably look into their own characters to see if they can find a sweet-spot amount of lag that is compatible with their walk. [Use frame skipping techniques as seen in the labbing thread in my signature to help you test accurately.]

Here is a video format that also showcases what we can do with it.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iIrLG81uvH8&feature=youtu.be

 

[JohnKnight416]

Double post but it has been a few days and something entirely different.


Here is a video format that also showcases what we can do with it.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iIrLG81uvH8&feature=youtu.be

I've just watched your video and I would like to ask you a few questions about it.

Is it possible for you to input any Smash Attacks or a Dtilt during the slide after the Hard Landing Lag?

And is it better to get the Hard Landing Lag by using the method of "FF and then rotating the analog stick in a quarter circle then back to being horizontal" rather than using A-landing? You said that this type of method results in a better slide so does that mean that this is the better method for executing this Landing Lag Boost tech?
Also is it guaranteed that you'll always get a Walk with this method when you rotate the analog stick in a quarter circle then back to being horizontal after a FF, or is there still a chance that you might accidentally get a Dash instead by not holding the direction of the analog stick long enough as you've already mentioned in this video?

FYI, I just subscribed to your youtube channel.

 

[Stryker95]

Is it possible for you to input any Smash Attacks or a Dtilt during the slide after the Hard Landing Lag?

I think you meant "during the walk", the slide comes from the move inputted during the slide. And no, Smashes and DTilt stop momentum completely, except for USmash which technically gets a small slide, but not a boost slide, the slide is the same as doing a walking USmash.

And is it better to get the Hard Landing Lag by using the method of "FF and then rotating the analog stick in a quarter circle then back to being horizontal" rather than using A-landing? You said that this type of method results in a better slide so does that mean that this is the better method for executing this Landing Lag Boost tech?

I said rotating the analog stick in a quarter circle gives a better slide, vs holding it slightly up or down, as this allows one to end with the analog stick fully horizontal, giving a faster walk, giving a longer slide. This whole thing is momentum based.

Also is it guaranteed that you'll always get a Walk with this method when you rotate the analog stick in a quarter circle then back to being horizontal after a FF, or is there still a chance that you might accidentally get a Dash instead by not holding the direction of the analog stick long enough as you've already mentioned in this video?

If you do it correctly you will get a walk. This whole thing is momentum based, so by moving the analog stick slightly up or down you keep momentum forward and can still walk. If one were to move it all the way up or down, momentum is lost and when pushed back forward it will be read as a dash, which is why using the A-Stick to input an aerial does not work, it reads that momentum was lost.

 

[JohnKnight416]

If you do it correctly you will get a walk. This whole thing is momentum based, so by moving the analog stick slightly up or down you keep momentum forward and can still walk. If one were to move it all the way up or down, momentum is lost and when pushed back forward it will be read as a dash, which is why using the A-Stick to input an aerial does not work, it reads that momentum was lost.

Do you know whether or no it is possible for you perform a Zair right before landing and still maintain the momentum required to pull off this tech? Are you to get the same momentum with the Landing Lag of Zair the same way as you would with the Hard Landing Lag from Link?

 

[Stryker95]

Do you know whether or no it is possible for you perform a Zair right before landing and still maintain the momentum required to pull off this tech? Are you to get the same momentum with the Landing Lag of Zair the same way as you would with the Hard Landing Lag from Link?

The landing lag of ZAir does work, nice catch.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

A while ago I posted this.

One thing we lose by switching from c-stick to a-stick is the ability to easily do F-smash backwards directly out of a run.
It is already known that one way to make this easier is to use A+B instead of just hitting attack, and I decided to get the frame data explaining why.

If you want to F-smash backwards directly out of a run or the later frames of a dash with just attack and the joystick, then assuming that hitting the joystick backwards counts as the first frame (which I'll use for the remainder of this post), you must hit attack on the 2nd frame and you have to continue to hold the joystick backwards till the F-smash begins its animation on the 5th frame. Hitting attack on the first frame, i.e. the same frame as the joystick input, will give you a dash attack, while hitting it on the 3rd frame or any later will give you a F-tilt.

Then there's the A+B method. If you hit A and B on the same frame (continuing to hold the joystick input as always) you can input it anywhere between frames 2 and 13. Moreover there is a period between frames 2 and 4 where you can press A by itself then B without having to hit them on the same frame, and it will still F-smash (this does not work for B then A). So your options in this small period are hitting A on frame 2 then B on frames 2 , 3 or 4, hitting A on frame 3 then hitting B on frames 3 or 4, or otherwise hitting A and B on the same frame. I'd advise you to aim for frame 2 or 3 (very quick) and try to hit A and B on the same frame, if not hit A ever so slightly earlier, and you should be able to F-smash backwards consistently.

This post, while accurate, is misleading. If you want to F-smash back in the direction you were just running in and you don't have a c-stick, the easiest way to do this by far is to simply hold either A or B at any point in preparation (e.g. hit and hold one of them from the point you use it to activate a move, or during another animation before the 10 frame buffer window at the end of that animation, or just do something simple like hit and hold B as you shield), then run, hit backwards to turn around, then anywhere between (and including) frames 2 and 13 of that turn around animation hit the other button (e.g. if you were holding A, hit B). I'm sure that plenty of you were already doing this, but I just wanted to clear that up.

 

[Nd_KakaKhakis]

Does anyone have percents where d-tilt to Up-air true combos and kills? (on smashville preferably but that's just me being picky).
I feel like I saw someone post it a little while back but I looked back 5-ish pages and didn't see it.

I was practicing FF Bair1 into turnanound d-tilt (not true afaik but can link together especially at higher %'s) as a pretty safe way to fish for kills when my opponent is around 90%.

I'd appreciate it if someone could pass me this data.


Also I'll be posting a guide on grounded footstool -> bomb toss down.

There are tons of uses for grounded footstooling your opponent with a bomb in hand.
Maybe y'all saw the beefy smash doods video on footstool OOS. In the corner grounded footstool -> bomb -< dair true combos and spikes. If you start off of a grounded footstool you can nair lock the whole cast, even those with tiny grounded hurtboxes that you couldn't lock off of a regular footstool setup. I'm gonna outline how to get this on the cast.

The only factor that makes the combo difficult is knowing which way the bomb will send your opponent.

The rule of thumb is that the bomb will send your opponent the opposite direction you are facing,
Link holds the bomb in front of him and typically as he tosses it the bomb will hit in front of the opponent, thus sending them behind you. So you can move backwards slightly to get that footstool or that dair or whatever.

However some hurtboxes make things pretty damn confusing and break the rule. I will try and note all of those differences so we can know how to reliably combo the cast.

 

[Rizen]

A few MU specific things about Dair's high damage (15 or 18% 1st hit, 11% 2nd hit):
Kirby's stone move can take no more that 24% before Kirby is knocked out of it so we can Dair and be guaranteed the 2nd hit will knock him out of it without having to time the punish. Charizard's sideB can be beat by the 18% hit (right after the spike frames 18-20). Possibly the 15% hit too, idk if Char's side B heavy armor is beaten by 15% or over 15% damage moves.

Another thing: grab beats super armor so we might want to look into grabbing armored upB recoveries since grab has huge reach and grabs out of the air.

info from:
http://smashboards.com/threads/invincibility-and-armor-list.371822/

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

idk if Char's side B heavy armor is beaten by 15% or over 15% damage moves.

From memory it is beaten by anything above 15%. Our Uair or Dair (15%) won't beat it in training mode, but a fresh Uair or Dair in a real match will (because x 1.05).

 

[JohnKnight416]

From memory it is beaten by anything above 15%. Our Uair or Dair (15%) won't beat it in training mode, but a fresh Uair or Dair in a real match will (because x 1.05).

Wouldn't it be possible for Link's Dair to beat out Charizard's SideB Heavy Armor since it can do 18% damage. I'm not exactly sure when it does 18%, but I think it's during the Clean first hit of Link's Dair right after when the initial spike hitbox comes out of Link's Dair. Either way, it's possible that Link's Dair can do 18% damage on the first hit.

The landing lag of ZAir does work, nice catch.

Thank you! Btw, if the Landing Lag of Zair does indeed work with this Landing Lag Boost tech, then does that mean that it's possible to combo right after a well-timed Zair with the options that you can perform during the slide in which you've already demonstrated in your video? Like would it be possible for Link to combo Zair>Utilt with the Landing Lag Boost tech assisting the positioning of his Utilt for it to connect right after Zair?

 

[Rizen]

This guy made a video of Link's hitbubbles:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zheUdc5bIPI

 

[Stryker95]

Wouldn't it be possible for Link's Dair to beat out Charizard's SideB Heavy Armor since it can do 18% damage. I'm not exactly sure when it does 18%, but I think it's during the Clean first hit of Link's Dair right after when the initial spike hitbox comes out of Link's Dair. Either way, it's possible that Link's Dair can do 18% damage on the first hit.

It's from frames 18-20. And yes, if you manage to get it, it does beat out the super armor.

Thank you! Btw, if the Landing Lag of Zair does indeed work with this Landing Lag Boost tech, then does that mean that it's possible to combo right after a well-timed Zair with the options that you can perform during the slide in which you've already demonstrated in your video? Like would it be possible for Link to combo Zair>Utilt with the Landing Lag Boost tech assisting the positioning of his Utilt for it to connect right after Zair?

That can be hard to answer as there are many variables, but I will give you some information and let you make conclusions. This boost lets you cover some ground while attacking, so it should cut some frames that before would have been needed to cover horizontal distance. However, this boost requires one to walk for a few frames first. So if there is a combo out there off of ZAir that requires one to walk for more than 7 frames before attacking and still work, then yes, this can save time or make some combos possible.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Wouldn't it be possible for Link's Dair to beat out Charizard's SideB Heavy Armor since it can do 18% damage.

sigh...
If you read what I said above you'll learn that moves that do 15% will not beat it in training mode, but in a real game with the 1.05 x freshness bonus these same moves will beat it if fresh enough because a fully fresh move that does 15% in training mode will do 15.75% in a real match, and all you have to do is more than 15% exactly in order to beat it. To make this clearer still, I'm saying that so long as Link's Dair is fresh enough, any part of the Dair will beat Charizard's side-B armor, so you can spike it or even hit it later on. It doesn't have to be the 18% hitbox.

 

[Nd_KakaKhakis]

http://imgur.com/a/deqBw

Two little infographics I made about Jab1 and Jab2. I showed which hitbubble of Jab 1 and Jab 2 (there are 4 on each jab) has which knockback angle.

Disclaimer: I may have made some mistakes in assigning the angles (don't kill me Foxy) but the key differences should still be clear.

Disclaimer 2: Jab 1 is below Jab 2 for some reason my b Idk how Imgur works.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

A while ago I promised I'd look into which characters we can get a guaranteed 'd-throw to platform drop through to DJ Fair' on. Well I forgot about it till just now.
At some point I'd also like to look at the possibilities with other aerials too, but for now, Fair hype.
Yes, the dream is indeed real. Guaranteed D-throw to Fair, if you're on a platform, if you perform it perfectly, against a select few lighter characters.
I tested in reverse order of character weight so I would eventually get to a point where it stopped working and safely avoid having to test every character.
Note that this is assuming frame perfect inputs, i.e. you're probably not good enough, and if you are good enough you will definitely need to practice because this is by no means easy. First you've got the smaller window out of the d-throw to do the platform drop, followed by a 2 frame window for the DJ, followed by a 1 frame window (in some cases) for the Fair if you want it to connect without them being able to airdodge. You have been warned..
I'll be using 10% intervals (which means the ranges it works will most likely be larger, just not all the way to the next 10% interval) tested in training mode (so no rage) as always:

Jiggs: 50% to 60%
Mewtwo: 70% to 90%
Rosalina: 70%
Kirby: 70% to 80% (though Kirby can DI behind Link to avoid Fair at 80% even if you follow the DI and DJ backwards)
Olimar: 70% to 80%
Pikachu: 70% to 90%
Fox: 70% to 90%

And that's it. Anyone heavier was able to airdodge. More of this kind of thing to come at some point. Probably.

 

[Stryker95]

Below is listed the percents where DThrow to UAir will begin killing. This was tested in 5% increments outside of training mode. All results are on BF with Link at 0%. Some of these numbers may seem odd, but one has to take into consideration the fall speed, weight, and gravity of both moves; and that our DThrow is weight dependent.

Spoiler: DThrow to UAir Kill %s

Bayonetta: 110%
Bowser: 125%
Bowser Jr: 117%
Captain Falcon 120%
Charizard: 115%
Cloud: 115% Cloud (Limit): 120%
Corrin: 115%
Dark Pit: 110%
Diddy Kong: 110%
Donkey Kong: 130%
Dr. Mario: 115%
Duck Hunt Duo: 115%
Falco: 105%
Fox: 100%
G & W: 90%
Ganon: 120%
Greninja: 105%
Ike: 120%
Jigglypuff: 85%
King DeDeDe: 135%
Kirby: 95%
Link: 120%
Little Mac: 110%
Lucario: 120%
Lucas: 105%
Lucina: 110%
Luigi: 105%
Mario 115%
Marth: 110%
Mega Man: 120%
Meta Knight: 100%
MewTwo: 95%
Mii Brawler: 115%
Mii Gunner: 110%
Mii Swordsman: 115%
Ness: 105%
Olimar: 100%
Pac-Man: 110%
Palutena: 100%
Peach: 95%
Pikachu: 100%
Pit: 110%
ROB: 115%
Robin: 110%
Rosa: 95%
Roy: 115%
Ryu: 115%
Samus: 115%
Sheik: 100%
Shulk: 115% (Vanilla, Buster, Speed, Jump), 100% (Smash), 180% (Shield)
Sonic: 110%
Toon Link: 105%
Villager: 110%
Wario: 120%
WFT: 105%
Yoshi: 110%
Zelda: 100%
ZSS: 100%

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I was just labbing Robin's 'checkmate' thing against Link when I wondered whether we have anything like that. And apparently we do. There may be other examples (Pikachu comes immediately to mind), all of which will be very character and percent specific, but this is what I have for now.

Against a Fox, if you D-throw then FH Fair, within a specific percent range (outlined below) Fox will have to airdodge to avoid the Fair, and if he does airdodge he will fall and land in airdodge landing lag. If we fast fall at the peak of the FH Fair (regardless of whether it hit or not), we will then be able to land and punish Fox's airdodge landing lag with a grounded Up-B that he cannot shield in time. If he tries to DI the D-throw we can follow it and the Fair will still connect, then so long as there is a stage beneath him, there will be nothing Fox can do to avoid our FF to grounded Up-B.

Here are the percent specifics: (Training mode so no rage.)

75% and under: Fox is able to DJ to avoid the FH Fair.

76-86%: Fox must airdodge to avoid the Fair and then he will unavoidably land in airdodge landing lag and then be unable to avoid a FF to grounded Up-B. (FF to F-smash is possible on and over 85%, but this would be overkill and is risky.)

87-97%: Fox must airdodge to avoid the Fair but then he can act before he lands to avoid airdodge landing lag. If however he doesn't act and instead just lands, he will get the airdodge landing lag and can be heavily punished with whatever the hell you want.


To make myself perfectly clear, what I am saying is that if you grab Fox toward the edge of the stage between 76 and 86%, he's dead.
The percents above and below this specific range allow Fox an option to escape, but they are still potentially lethal if he chooses the wrong option.

I might look into other things like this later.


Edit. Works for Pika too. Slightly differently.

Pikachu:

59% the highest percent that Pika will be able to shield the FF grounded Up-B.

60% the highest percent when DJ by itself will let Pika escape the FH Fair after D-throw.

68% the highest percent that Pika's Nair will beat Link outright

75% the highest percent that Nair will trade.

77% the highest percent that airdodge will still force airdodge landing lag with Pika being unable to act before landing.

87% the highest percent that airdodge will still cause landing lag if Pika chooses to do nothing until landing.

 

[Rizen]

Does Link's Dthrow or Bombs true combo into aerial upB? I noticed it starts frame 8 (1 slower than Nair) and has wicked KBG. The fact that it moves up might make it a good % specific kill combo finisher.
http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Link

 

[Nd_KakaKhakis]

I've been thinking about using below stage boomerang as a bait or as an anti-trump measure.

It differs by stage but the idea is to get your opponent to recognize your ledge re-grab and try and time a guaranteed punish, like Fox D-smash, Sonic F-smash or even if they like waiting for a tilt it should work.

So if you drop from ledge then toss a boomerang towards the stage (that doesn't hit the stage and goes cleanly underneath it) then jump back up and airdodge tether the ledge.
If you can time a jump airdodge from tether to avoid your opponents re-grab punish then your boomerang will push them off the stage. You can just take stage control back from this position or go for a fast-fall dair/nair to get a spike/stagespike.

If your opponent inputs something while being windboxed there's a good chance that they will get an aerial they don't want off-stage and if you can react to this spaghetti aerial with a fast fall dair spike.

 

[Rizen]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUc4M80Sh_I
this is interesting, aerial input lock. we can use this to do things like buffered Nair while moving.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I found another way to make D-throw to Fair a thing.

Essentially, this method takes advantage of the fact that you can DJ almost immediately if you were standing right up against the edge of the stage (or the edge of a platform). Specifically, if you're right on the edge and you dash off, you can DJ on the second frame if you hold forwards, or you can DJ in any direction on the third frame or any later frame.

So what does this mean? Well it's pretty simple. If for example you read that someone will do a normal ledge getup, you can dash in and do a delayed dash grab such that you will be pretty much inside them when you grab, you still grab them, then you will slide over to the very edge of the stage. At this point, you can do a D-throw then buffer a dash forwards (off the edge) out of the D-throw, and then almost immediately do a DJ. And because DJ has no jump-squat frames, we end up shaving off around 5 frames. The time we save by doing this allows for pretty much any follow-up you want in some cases. E.g. against Fox, I was just now able to get a D-throw to dash off-stage DJ Fair to combo between 55% and 100% (testing at 5% intervals), which, if you haven't figured out already, will typically kill seeing as you're already so close to the blast-zone.

Now I'm still looking into this, but I just thought I'd keep you all up to date. I have every reason to believe that D-throw to Fair will work on a large portion of the cast using this method. Let's not forget either that the more standard combos will all work much much better and in cases where they otherwise couldn't. E.g. D-throw to Aerial Up-B (right near the edge mind you) and D-throw to Uair will work on characters and percents where they otherwise simply would not.

One last thing. D-throw to Dair Spike is a thing now. You heard me right. Dair has the same start-up time as Fair, so if Fair works and the opponent is still low enough, Dair can connect. And it kills ridiculously early.

Naturally this kind of idea will work for any character, but we have the most to gain out of it seeing as we have 7 jump-squat frames to shave off.

Edit: To give you an idea for other characters, I got D-throw to Fair to work against Mario between 80 and 95%. Considering that I wasn't really expecting it to work against characters like Mario at all, this is a win.

 

[Natmax]

Wow this is fantastic! I'd like to ask about if we are facing the opposite direction, I tend to get grabs at the edge facing towards the stage. In fact, from standing in this position from the ledge, we can grab get up attack, normal get up, and roll on some characters. Most opponents DI back and air dodge, at low to mid percents, you can go for an air dodge read dair, though it's extremely dangerous. I imagine turn around is one frame in this case, so would turn-around run off to double jump fair/dair still be true near those percents? I'm hoping we would only lose a frame from the turn around.

Also I'd like to note this gives a new ledge trap scenario. Sitting in shield on the ledge facing towards the stage, we cover all options but jump with grab on certain characters. We can cover jump with other options in this position. If the opponent stays on the ledge, we can instant tether trump out of shield. This means that if they pick any option but jump, and DI the down throw back (which at mid percents I've noticed many players, including top ones, do. I actually discussed this with JJRockets at shine), they should die.

Edit: I guess we can't grab normal get up on reaction, but it still seems like a pretty good set up

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I finally got around to testing more D-throw rage percents. So now we have the data for Sheik and Mario. I'll add it to the main post.
It's a really boring process so don't expect another one for a while.

Mario

Link at 60%
Opponent at 0%: Treat them as if they are on 8% [Add 8%]
Opponent at 50%: Treat them as if they are on 62% [Add 12%]
Opponent at 100%: Treat them as if they are on 114% [Add 14%]

Link at 80%
Opponent at 0%: Treat them as if they are on 15% [Add 15%]
Opponent at 50%: Treat them as if they are on 69% [Add 19%]
Opponent at 100%: Treat them as if they are on 122% [Add 22%]

Link at 100%
Opponent at 0%: Treat them as if they are on 21% [Add 21%]
Opponent at 50%: Treat them as if they are on 76% [Add 26%]
Opponent at 100%: Treat them as if they are on 132% [Add 32%]

Link at 125%
Opponent at 0%: Treat them as if they are on 31% [Add 31%]
Opponent at 50%: Treat them as if they are on 88% [Add 38%]
Opponent at 100%: Treat them as if they are on 144% [Add 44%]

Link at 150%
Opponent at 0%: Treat them as if they are on 41% [Add 41%]
Opponent at 50%: Treat them as if they are on 97% [Add 47%]
Opponent at 100%: Treat them as if they are on 155% [Add 55%]


The observant among you will notice a strange anomaly in the results. All I can say is that I double checked everything and it is what it is.

 

[Dumbfire]

The observant among you will notice a strange anomaly in the results.

What is the strange anomaly?

(I am stupid and a scholar, not a statistician)

 

[Rizen]

I think it's the increase in launch force from rage comes in waves that become bigger as the opponent's damage goes up. So if rage went to 200% in theory we'd see longer dips of slow growth followed by longer periods of increased growth than at 150%. (?)

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

What is the strange anomaly?

(I am stupid and a scholar, not a statistician)

Don't be silly, you're not stupid. It's nothing smart. I was just a tad rushed when I posted it and so I wasn't bothered at the time to explain why the percent increase in the sets of three are strangely inconsistent when one would expect them to be more uniform or at least follow a pattern. E.g. you have an increase of 4% then 2% with Link at 60%, then 4 and 3 with Link at 80, which might make you start to think you'll know what to expect, only then you've got 5 and 6, a bit unexpected, but maybe now you think that you definitely see a pattern as the last number is increasing, only to have this followed by 7 and 6, so we're back to where we started, and just to rub in the fact that you were trying to see anything at all, we finish with 6 and 8.
The reason for this is simple enough. It's partly due to the limitations of my rage knockback testing method meaning I may be off by a fraction of a percent here and there (the nerve... cutting corners like that... how irresponsible), and it's also partly due to the fact that when I then bring the results back to training mode to find the percent required to achieve the same knockback I am using whole percents to find it, not fractions of a percent, because training mode, meaning that if a test falls short by the smallest of margins, the result will be, in some cases, almost a whole percent extra to compensate for the slight lack found in the test percent below it.
Basically the results are ever so slightly inaccurate, and these slight inaccuracies sometimes add up and give strange results. Instead of giving results that one would expect and that look nice however, I left them as I found them (right after I double checked them). The rage percent results I got for Sheik just happened to work out looking better, probably partly due to the fact that the percent increases were on the whole larger meaning half percent inaccuracies were less noticeable.
Not that any of this matters.

 

[Rizen]

edit, nevermind I'm derailing the thread :/

 

[Stryker95]

Wow this is fantastic! I'd like to ask about if we are facing the opposite direction, I tend to get grabs at the edge facing towards the stage. In fact, from standing in this position from the ledge, we can grab get up attack, normal get up, and roll on some characters. Most opponents DI back and air dodge, at low to mid percents, you can go for an air dodge read dair, though it's extremely dangerous. I imagine turn around is one frame in this case, so would turn-around run off to double jump fair/dair still be true near those percents? I'm hoping we would only lose a frame from the turn around.

Regarding the above quoted post:

The turn around does cost us to lose one frame. So if one were looking at Fox, it used to work at 55%, but if Link needs to turn around to dash offstage, it won't begin to work until 60%. As for the top range, it still works up until 100% as the issue is not one of hitstun but rather positioning, Link simply can't reach in time.

 

[DarkDeity15]

Does anyone have percents where d-tilt to Up-air true combos and kills? (on smashville preferably but that's just me being picky).
I feel like I saw someone post it a little while back but I looked back 5-ish pages and didn't see it.

I was practicing FF Bair1 into turnanound d-tilt (not true afaik but can link together especially at higher %'s) as a pretty safe way to fish for kills when my opponent is around 90%.

I'd appreciate it if someone could pass me this data.


Also I'll be posting a guide on grounded footstool -> bomb toss down.

There are tons of uses for grounded footstooling your opponent with a bomb in hand.
Maybe y'all saw the beefy smash doods video on footstool OOS. In the corner grounded footstool -> bomb -< dair true combos and spikes. If you start off of a grounded footstool you can nair lock the whole cast, even those with tiny grounded hurtboxes that you couldn't lock off of a regular footstool setup. I'm gonna outline how to get this on the cast.

The only factor that makes the combo difficult is knowing which way the bomb will send your opponent.

The rule of thumb is that the bomb will send your opponent the opposite direction you are facing,
Link holds the bomb in front of him and typically as he tosses it the bomb will hit in front of the opponent, thus sending them behind you. So you can move backwards slightly to get that footstool or that dair or whatever.

However some hurtboxes make things pretty damn confusing and break the rule. I will try and note all of those differences so we can know how to reliably combo the cast.

It's in the OP under the Data Dump, I'm the one who labbed Dtilt to Uair kill %s.

 

[Nd_KakaKhakis]

Thanks for pointing me to it and thanks for putting in the lab-time, I've been Dying to know the actual percents where this works.