Meta Link's Metagame Thread (Informative Quotes Can Be Found in the OP)

[Dumbfire]

Guys, the new Link Metagame has been figured out, here's a preview, it'ss way better than Scizor's notebook

 

[ZSaberLink]

So I've been fiddling around with UTilt -> UAir in training mode (Feel free to double check this Fox Is Openly Deceptive or Stryker95 ). I know that it was briefly mentioned as a string in one post, but that's about it. Thus I'd thought I'd look into what %s it works with, what the opponent can do, etc.

For starters I'm doing no/little DI because this does seem to become more avoidable with full DI. I only had time to do it with one character fully so far though.

Bayonetta:
UTilt -> Buffered Full Jump + Uair - works from 50-65% on Bayo w/ little to no DI

She can't attack or jump out of this at all (Link can sometimes even catch her DJ if you're a bit late).

Bayo can airdodge, but the lingering hitbox of UAir seems to hit her anyways if she does. If you do this at 45%, Bayo will get Bat Within (yay for damage), but can punish Link when landing (boo).

Back hit of UTilt gives the Bayo a smaller window to escape (back hit registers as true combo on Training mode even though Air Dodge clearly still works apart from the lingering hitbox lol) but I think it'd be easier to DI away with this setup.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

So I've been fiddling around with UTilt -> UAir in training mode (Feel free to double check this Fox Is Openly Deceptive or Stryker95 ). I know that it was briefly mentioned as a string in one post, but that's about it. Thus I'd thought I'd look into what %s it works with, what the opponent can do, etc.

For starters I'm doing no/little DI because this does seem to become more avoidable with full DI. I only had time to do it with one character fully so far though.

Bayonetta:
UTilt -> Buffered Full Jump + Uair - works from 50-65% on Bayo w/ little to no DI

She can't attack or jump out of this at all (Link can sometimes even catch her DJ if you're a bit late).

Bayo can airdodge, but the lingering hitbox of UAir seems to hit her anyways if she does. If you do this at 45%, Bayo will get Bat Within (yay for damage), but can punish Link when landing (boo).

Back hit of UTilt gives the Bayo a smaller window to escape (back hit registers as true combo on Training mode even though Air Dodge clearly still works apart from the lingering hitbox lol) but I think it'd be easier to DI away with this setup.

If your intention was to demonstrate that it doesn't work unless the opponent messes up then you are correct.
Couple of things though. You haven't appeared to test specials. If you had, you would have noted that Bayo can witch time the U-tilt to Uair attempt at 65%.
Also note that if Bayo can airdodge the Uair, she can technically also activate bat within on it and punish you by delaying the airdodge slightly.

 

[ZSaberLink]

If your intention was to demonstrate that it doesn't work unless the opponent messes up then you are correct.
Couple of things though. You haven't appeared to test specials. If you had, you would have noted that Bayo can witch time the U-tilt to Uair attempt at 65%.
Also note that if Bayo can airdodge the Uair, she can technically also activate bat within on it and punish you by delaying the airdodge slightly.

Ah I tested Witch twist at lower %s, but totally forgot to test it at 65%. Didn't realize Witch time was frame 5 though. Is that faster than her jump then (double jump's like frame 6?)? Also based on your response, if the opponent DIs, I suppose Link basically never hits it (I was noticing that with perfect DI, it didn't look to be hitting)?

The thing I'm curious about though, is that I feel like DThrow is in fact quite reactable because it takes over 18 frames just for the throw animation to finish and you pretty much know Link's going to DThrow after grabbing someone. Unless you're purposefully getting hit by UTilt (you would've shielded/dodged/rolled otherwise), you're now DIing on reaction. Given an average reaction time of 13 frames, how much time is the opponent DIing then after the attack typically? Is that enough for the opponent to actually DI out of the way?

Also since you're the mod of the Toon Link boards, you'd probably know this, but is UTilt to UAir guaranteed for Toon at certain %s? I know Hyuga gets it a lot and Toon has 10 extra frames to do it, but just curious. I started looking at this since the KBG & BKB were really similar for Link & Toon Link's UTilt, it's just we have more endlag and do more dmg (so I figured it'd work at lower %s).

Btw I've got to admire the work it must have taken to do all the DThrow followups. Jeez, that's a lot of work. Thanks for double checking my attempt.

 

[Deleted member]

Another way to do a Dair off stage and get a low spike is too simply bring the bomb with you off stage. Drop the bomb, regrab with a move and then do a instant item drop off stage. Then simply catch the bomb with a rising Dair. Explosion will save you and all is good. This way you aren't forced to stay close to stage but can go on an little "Adventure" to the unknown areas of 1 meter from the ledge. You are of course not restricted to grabbing the bomb with dair wither so you can get creative

Oh yeah, you know when you are going for Dthrow -> Uair and they are air dodging to avoid it because obvious combo is obvious? Well, if you can read their air dodge a simple but effective punish is to just use the foll hop -> Double jump -> Dair to punish that. And it's pretty safe... ish, as even if you miss you will not have any landing lag when touching the ground and as both you and the opponent are up in the air they are gonna have a hard time punishing it. Though if spammed you will of course get punished for it. Just a pretty sneaky and effective mixup. And if you time it well and get the 18% sweet spot of Dair they might be dead... Probably, maybe... depends on the situation.

Edit: just remembered that you can get the lag free Dair from a Bair as well. So if you're going for the mixup you might wanna put that out so that there's always a hitbox out... Again, it depends.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Is that faster than her jump then (double jump's like frame 6?)?

DJ's are frame 1. Not sure why the witch time worked in this instance where the DJ didn't as I was under the impression that specials and DJ's out of hitstun came out on the same frame... I'll briefly check this because that would be very interesting if they didn't in this instance. Yeah they both come out on the same frame. My guess is that the witch time just shifts her hurtbox higher up which is combined with the fact that it stalls her fall, just enough to avoid the Uair for 4 frames.

Also based on your response, if the opponent DIs, I suppose Link basically never hits it

If it was ever guaranteed it would be on a specific character at a specific percent. In practice though it would likely work at certain mid percents due to people not DIing the U-tilt. So long as the opponent doesn't have very good airspeed we could follow their airdodge.

The thing I'm curious about though, is that I feel like DThrow is in fact quite reactable because it takes over 18 frames just for the throw animation to finish and you pretty much know Link's going to DThrow after grabbing someone.

Yeah DIing the D-throw is most definitely react-able. The amount of time they have to react depends on the weight of the character.

Unless you're purposefully getting hit by UTilt (you would've shielded/dodged/rolled otherwise), you're now DIing on reaction.

Not necessarily. It's pretty standard practice (so far as I'm aware) once you get put into a position where you know you'll be hit to already be DIing before you get hit (while e.g. holding shield as a 'just in case', which is why often you'll see people who thought they were going to get hit immediately tilting their shield when they are able to act).

Given an average reaction time of 13 frames, how much time is the opponent DIing then after the attack typically?

You are aware that DI must be inputted before hitlag ends, right? Otherwise there is no DI.

is UTilt to UAir guaranteed for Toon at certain %s?

Absolutely.

Another way to do a Dair off stage and get a low spike is too simply bring the bomb with you off stage. Drop the bomb, regrab with a move and then do a instant item drop off stage. Then simply catch the bomb with a rising Dair.

Right I see what you're saying. So basically, pick up the bomb which is on the ground with a rising aerial as you jump off-stage then buffer a z-drop out of the aerial to do a Zairless Z-drop, then you've got a bomb dropping with you at a nice pace off-stage which you can re-catch again at any time. Well I like it better than throwing the bomb at the stage. Much more reliable.

Oh yeah, you know when you are going for Dthrow -> Uair and they are air dodging to avoid it because obvious combo is obvious?

If they are able to airdodge it and you're not messing up, then it's not a combo, but go on XD.

Well, if you can read their air dodge a simple but effective punish is to just use the foll hop -> Double jump -> Dair

Fair would be better imo.

you can get the lag free Dair from a Bair as well

By this I'm assuming you mean you can do a FH Bair to immediate DJ Dair and still get the Dair to autocancel. It should be noted that the timing is very strict, perhaps too strict. After all you can only buffer the DJ, not both the DJ and Dair. Other than that, it's pretty interesting, perhaps as a way of calling out ledge jumps to potential DJ's with airdodges thrown in.

 

[Deleted member]

Ok, Idea... After getting a 1st hit Bair as we know, we are able to only get a true UpB if they are behind us... but it's not safe to go for most of the time as you kinda need to FF the Bair from about the height of a short hop, you can't just Bair near the ground and get a true UpB (well you can but good luck with that) You will get shielded / airdodged and thus, punished Hard.

So... what if we want for a SH rising Bair after the first hit once you've landed? I know it's never true but it means you can get around the danger of getting grabbed. Though I don't have all the frame data I would assume that even though the SH Bair isn't true it should be faster then then any OoS (that I can think of) and if the decide to go for a standing move you should also be able to beat that unless it's one of those frame 1-2 jabs or tilts. A frame 1 aerial shouldn't matter as they have to go through the entire crouch animation before the move comes out meaning that this should be pretty safe. And if they hold shield they will get hit by both hits, then you'll end up behind them and thanks to the fact that you can jump out of SH Bair's just before touching the ground you should be able to get away from the opponent before they are able to go for anything.
And if we manage to hit the SH Bair after the 1st hit landing Bair we will at resonable% be able to Link either a 2nd Bair or aerial UpB out of it for some good damage and stile points
Thoughts?

Edit: If they are to far away for a 2nd Bair or UpB... Just rang them. Duh

 

[ZSaberLink]

Any tips on how to not mistakenly throw an angled boomerang instead of using Up-B when recovering? I keep killing myself with that... I've noticed that when I try to Spin Attack towards the stage (so basically a reversed Up-B by hitting up-left/up-right towards the stage), I seem to throw out a boomerang instead. I'm assuming my Up-Left/Up-Right is sometimes being registered as just Left/right?

 

[Dumbfire]

Any tips on how to not mistakenly throw an angled boomerang instead of using Up-B when recovering? I keep killing myself with that... I've noticed that when I try to Spin Attack towards the stage (so basically a reversed Up-B by hitting up-left/up-right towards the stage), I seem to throw out a boomerang instead. I'm assuming my Up-Left/Up-Right is sometimes being registered as just Left/right?

some people have this a lot others don't, check with other controller first sometimes it has to do with controller-specific thumb-stick issues

 

[Deleted member]

Any tips on how to not mistakenly throw an angled boomerang instead of using Up-B when recovering? I keep killing myself with that... I've noticed that when I try to Spin Attack towards the stage (so basically a reversed Up-B by hitting up-left/up-right towards the stage), I seem to throw out a boomerang instead. I'm assuming my Up-Left/Up-Right is sometimes being registered as just Left/right?

There are a few reasons why it happens. One is simply that the input one wanted to do is not actually what was done. Another in online matches is if you directly after doing an Up special holds to a direction either to reverse it or just for better aerial movement there is a chance the game lags for just a frame or so and that is enough to change that Up special into an Side special.

Then there is the controller specifik parts, no matter how much you try you're probably never gonna find 2 controllers that truly are the same. They might be better in some way and still worse then others in other ways. This is known as the Silicon Lottery.
So for example, my main controllers L-analog stick does not have perfect ridges, in fact. If I hold it in any of the side ridges it will be really easy ti tell that it's slightly tilted upwards compared to how it usually is. For me this means that doing things like slow runs is really easy as all I have to do is hold the control stick in up right/left and have it simply work.
Another controller of mine is a lot more neutral and basically hits every ridge to near perfection meaning that I can't do the super easy slow run, but it also means that the chance that I get an upwards input when going for a side one is way less.

If you have a PC adapter you can easily test and see where your controller sits using the Dolphin emulator's controller setup. Another thing that I'd like to mention while I'm at it is that when I hold side up and is standing on the ground I get a Side special but when I'm in the air using the same input I get an Up special, which I find interesting. Though knowing your controller and your hands is the best way to keep your inputs under control instead of dying in a sad sad way.

 

[ZSaberLink]

Thanks @yarnfang.


Also, yesterday, I had a Kirby fall out of my USmash. I thought that wasn't supposed to happen anymore?

 

[JohnKnight416]

Thanks @yarnfang.


Also, yesterday, I had a Kirby fall out of my USmash. I thought that wasn't supposed to happen anymore?

I've been noticing that sort of case happening with Mario as well. Like during some instances when Link performs a Dthrow > Usmash setup on Mario, Mario Airdodge the first hit of Link's Usmash right after getting Dthrow and yet somehow manages to escape the rest of the hits of Link's Usmash sometimes even during his Landing Lag.
It just doesn't make sense whatsoever b/c the rest of the hits of Link's Usmash should always be able to connect with Mario on Landing Lag right after he Airdodges, especially since he doesn't even himself into a position to stay away from the horizontal reach of Link's Usmash right after landing after an Airdodge.

 

[Derpnaster]

I've been experimenting with a more Punish heavy playstyle with Link, the Idea is to get more out of my (Quite possibly bad) habit of going for projectile walls that usually force a very predictable approach.

Right now I'm favoring a very Gale heavy front wall with Bombs as area covers both above and in the small space between Gale's max range and Link. Bow for situational snipes or quick midrange disruptions such as a charged shot form Samus or a potential smash from Dorf.

Up close I tend to use jab1 to jab 2 for a read situation and I work from there.

Currently the idea is to use my wall to either keep the opponent out for as long as possible if they want to go agro on me, or provide a consant hammering from range if they camp to force an approach, and from it a possible punish.

This playstyle I've noticed relies very hevily on Link's neutral game being at peak as a single off Gale can give fast characters more than enough room to get in.

As for Link's neutral, I favor Gale and no charge Bow for ranged engagement, with a full Jab combo up close, I don't really use tilts except to finish out stocks or as punishes. in the air I prefer to use Nair for it's relative safety and decent power, if someone get's behind me I do throw out bair but I don't try to combo or cancel it in favor of setting up the wall again or watching how my opponent reacts to it.

So my question is. In theory how could I supliment this type of play? Should I go for short combos off of reads, should I on occasion mix it up and go argo? are there moves I should consider using more in Link's neutral?

 

[Rizen]

http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Link
I noticed that Bair 1 has 100 KBG, so it should keep opponents in hitstun longer the more damage they have right? If that's the case couldn't Link RAR Bair 1>FF land>finisher like Utilt/smash at higher %s as a true combo?

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

No. I'm not sure why it says that. I quickly double checked by comparing a Mario at 0% and at 999%, and the hitstun induced by Bair 1 was exactly the same amount of frames.

 

[Derpnaster]

Bair 1 to finisher is almost never true. While it's hitstun is pretty powerful it's not enough to allow for Link's slow moves to connect with no possibility of the opponent evading.

I'm also certain that the knockback of Bair 1 is set no matter the percentage it connects at and thus it's hitstun is also set.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Bair 1 to finisher is almost never true. While it's hitstun is pretty powerful it's not enough to allow for Link's slow moves to connect with no possibility of the opponent evading.

That is incorrect. Turn around Jab 1, Turn around U-tilt, and B-reversed or Turn around Up-B can be unavoidable for most characters if the Link performs it properly.

 

[Derpnaster]

That is incorrect. Turn around Jab 1, Turn around U-tilt, and B-revered or Turn around Up-B can be unavoidable for most characters if the Link performs it properly.

Did not know that, thank you!

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Did not know that, thank you!

Read everything in the first three posts of this thread.

 

[Rizen]

No. I'm not sure why it says that. I quickly double checked by comparing a Mario at 0% and at 999%, and the hitstun induced by Bair 1 was exactly the same amount of frames.

That sucks; I was hoping we'd get a bigger window with more damage

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

That sucks; I was hoping we'd get a bigger window with more damage

Well we actually get a slightly larger window with rage. And I believe Bair 1 to turn around U-smash actually becomes legit at some point, but not till like full rage. Unfortunately I have no way of testing this outside of special smash slow-mode and being amazing at using two controllers at once. Maybe one day I'll get some help and give you more definitive answers though.

 

[Nd_KakaKhakis]

Is there an autocancel window on Fair1?
I feel like when I perform a Full Hop Fair Fast fall or a SH Fair delay Fast Fall there are a few frames that allow me to act immediately (or at least way faster then if you hit the ground during any other part of the move.)

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Is there an autocancel window on Fair1?
I feel like when I perform a Full Hop Fair Fast fall or a SH Fair delay Fast Fall there are a few frames that allow me to act immediately (or at least way faster then if you hit the ground during any other part of the move.)

If there is then my life is a lie, or in other words I have no reason whatsoever to believe there is.

 

[Nd_KakaKhakis]

Word i'll send vids when I get home. Its kind of an awkward input to do out of a short hop you have to jump delay the fair and then delay the fast fall.
Out of Full Hop though just full hop input fair at your apex and then fast fall.
The visual cue I'd look for is that link's sword has begun swinging downwards and is active.
Too early would be that his sword is barely visible. Too late would be that the sword looks like its behind Link (prepping for swing2)

 

[JohnKnight416]

Hey guys! What do you think about this new Link Combo?
FF Uair > Bair > Aerial Spin Attack

I've found this unique combo that was shown during a Link combo video that was recently uploaded and saw that it registers as a Combo in Training Mode and that it can also kill an opponent when performed near the ledge at around Mid-percent range. And since that this combo starts off with a falling Uair, it's confirmed that Link's Uair can be used as a combo starter.

 

[kxiong92]

Hey guys! What do you think about this new Link Combo?
FF Uair > Bair > Aerial Spin Attack

I've found this unique combo that was shown during a Link combo video that was recently uploaded and saw that it registers as a Combo in Training Mode and that it can also kill an opponent when performed near the ledge at around Mid-percent range. And since that this combo starts off with a falling Uair, it's confirmed that Link's Uair can be used as a combo starter.

At that percent falcon can simply di away when he gets hit by link's bair, making upb not hit.

 

[JohnKnight416]

At that percent falcon can simply di away when he gets hit by link's bair, making upb not hit.

Idk about that b/c DI goes in separate ways. Sometime it'll help you and sometimes it won't help you out at all.

I personally doubt that DI will help out much for this case mainly b/c I've never seen anyone manage to DI their way out of Bair before getting caught up with the Aerial Spin Attack. After all, Bair > Aerial Spin Attack does seems to combo into each other pretty consistently at around low-mid percents

 

[Derpnaster]

I have managed to SSHC out of a BAir before, but that's just Greninja Things.


Edit: My bad I had a totally different train of thought there I was thinking about Normal Shadow Sneak Clashing. Histun Canceling only works for escape due to the change in position that usually puts Greninja too far for the hit to connect

However SSHC In will still get hit by spin attack if anticipated. Out is a little different but still readable as well.

The other train of thought is that Greninja can trade with Spin Attack from above with a well timed SS. Still not certain of it because hitboxes of both moves are rather unusual and prone to strange interactions (First it of ASA stage spiking anyone? )

 

[Rizen]

I did some testing of Link's Bair hitbubbles vs enemy hurtboxes. Sadly Link can't Bair facing forward and hit most opponents with the body hit of Bair 1 because his collision box extends farther than the hitbubble. The exceptions to this are Charizard's head extends far forward beyond his body's collision box so Link can do things like Bair facing Charizard>hit with Bair 1>land and spinattack/Usmash/Dsmash etc connecting with the forward hit. Link can do this with hurtboxes like Mewtwo's tail if Mewtwo is facing away from Link but that's not going to happen in a match.

For non turn-around followups if Link RAR Bair1s, Utilt usually hits before the back hit of spin attack because the way Utilt's hitbubble come down and hits the opponent's head. This gives Link a slight frame advantage vs tall and/or floaty characters as opposed to short and/or fast fallers. Bowser has a weird animation where he lands really low and doesn't get hit until Utilt's blade comes down at the end.

 

[Deleted member]

Actually there's a simpler way to turn around the opponent. You run up, then a reverse aerial rush with either a full or short jump, and then when almost behind the enemy you do a FF Bair which will end up with you standing behind them while they are in hit stun.
And you can actually turn around most of the cast with a normal reverse Bair as well though you have to be inside them enough for them to get hit but not so much that they are able to go past you... To my eyes it's almost random but still a thing that I find interesting. And I managed to do it with all that I tested it on, including Cpt Falcon

 

[Rizen]

I'm working on a post about "Link's theory" (whatever that means) for the CCI thread and want to post it here to make sure it's all accurate. People are saying he's bottom 10 and sucks at everything; I'm saying he's lower mid tier. Please tell me if I'm off (DF, Cat, Foxy, etc) :

______________________________
I'm not the best Link play so I'll try to include things from tourney going players and be as accurate as possible. Take this with a grain of salt :/


behaves like a heavy weight who has projectiles to start combos. People praise 's bomb combos, well Link has them too, although with tighter windows. Link's Fair since the buffs kills almost as early as TL's and if the opponent airdodges, Fair2 will hit them. Link's projectiles have good frame data, better than most campers. Bow
(uncharged) starts frame 18 FAF 47, Boomerang 27 FAF 46 and bombs (2 on screen at once max) FAF 40, bomb toss 8 FAF 20. has the same frame data for bombs and boomerang. For reference, 's banana FAF frame 40 out of his hand and 's vegetable FAF 43 and can be pulled ground only.'s fireballs start 17 FAF 44, 's blaster 11 FAF 59, 's uncharged shadow ball 23 FAF 49, 's single needle 5 FAF 48. Credits to
http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4k
And Link can throw out a lot of projectiles to be onscreen at once. He also has Zair that plants bombs on the ground like Snake's grenades while attacking forward. can out-camp most characters.
Bombs are terrifying. A frame 8 FAF 20 combo starter that can be Z planted on the ground, throw in 4 directions, 2 out at a time, and has a hurt box that stops attacks like Samus' charged shot. If a better character had bombs they would be OP.
From SH Zair is +2/+3 (2 hits) on shield drop. Fair is +3/+4 and Nair is +5 or +2 for the weak end hit. Link isn't simply beaten by shields like in Brawl. Based on:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GaDXAPQJlz0AiIYSSOWFwy_dg04Rrq4a-YF9-VDOhZI/edit#gid=0
Link's SH camping, better phrased Zoning, is safer than people think.

__________________________

...I'll add more later. My kitten's driving me crazy.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Ok as promised I'm having a look at it now. Some of the things I have to say are going to be less serious than others, because if I couldn't have fun poking holes in things I wouldn't do it at all XD.

I'm not the best Link play

player

so I'll try to include things from tourney going players

Not sure why they get a Link icon when you don't. I'm personally not a fan of the icons but you can do as you like so long as you're consistent.

behaves like a heavy weight

Not quite sure what it means to behave like a heavy weight, but ok.

who has projectiles to start combos

While it's true that you can combo out of boomerang, I wouldn't say it's purpose is to combo out of, so really you just have the one projectile to start combos, and even then this is selling the purpose of projectiles short. Arguably an even stronger purpose for Link's projectiles over comboing is for the purposes of controlling the opponent (but then I wrote a nice long post about projectile theory a while ago which can be found in the second post of the OP under camping/spamming).

People praise 's bomb combos, well Link has them too, although with tighter windows.

It's a bit misleading to say that we have tighter windows (unless of course we're comparing the time it takes to SH/FH Fair, in which case Toon does have 2 less jump-squat frames, yes). Technically, considering that our bombs induce more hitstun, we have a larger window to combo out of. What you're getting at is the fact that often we can't get there in time regardless of how much time we have, which is something different. As to that, you could add that having more range (e.g. on Fair) helps in this regard as we naturally have slightly less distance to travel. The real difference is the mobility Toon has over Link as well as the fact that Toon feels more comfortable at closer range which not only makes it easier to go in and confirm from a long way away but also makes it more likely that the Toon will either already be up close or already be going in anyway, so sometimes it's just a matter of being like, "oh I guess the bomb hit, well while I'm here".

Link's Fair since the buffs kills almost as early as TL's

Actually, that's not so clearly the case anymore. Any difference in knockback between the two is honestly negligible. In fact I'd say that the biggest difference is the angle they launch the opponent, Toon's having a lower angle, which would factor into optimal DI available etc. So having said that, while there may be some people (such as myself) who might point out some slight difference in how early Toon's Fair will kill in a given scenario, I think it's about time we start thinking more along the lines of 'their knockback and kill potential is roughly equal in all practical circumstances assuming the move has actually connected'. You're not wrong, it's just that the way you've worded it sells Link's Fair short.

and if the opponent airdodges, Fair2 will hit them.

I mean, if they airdodge slightly before we use Fair at all, then yeah, but even so; in my experience this won't be the case, even if it's just because I was attempting to combo it and they were able to airdodge just in time or something. The point is I'd clarify that or else not say it at all.

Link's projectiles have good frame data, better than most campers.

Mega Man though. Oh but you said 'most' campers..
Also do you really want to get stuck talking with people about which characters count as campers, spammers, zoners, turtlers, snipers, etc? Because you know that's going to happen in the CCI thread right?

bombs (2 on screen at once max)

They're not interested in this kind of trivia.

bomb toss 8 FAF 20

ooh so close XD. I was just about to give you a pat on the back for saying frame 8 (which is a technicality tied to the nature of bombs) when you messed up on the FAF which is 21.

Also, kinda surprised you're not mentioning his dash throw if you intend to wow the audience with frame data.

Let's see, not bothering to double check frame data for other characters..

Credits to
http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4k

I will however mention that you have a broken link here.

And Link can throw out a lot of projectiles to be onscreen at once.

Details.. e.g. soft-throw bombs etc.

He also has Zair that plants bombs on the ground like Snake's grenades while attacking forward.

The comparison to Snake's nades is inaccurate. Unless talking about soft-throws, which you haven't yet, for, reasons?

can out-camp most characters.

Vague claim which without more is unconvincing, especially considering that most characters don't need/want to camp. - which incidentally is also a 'vague claim which without more is unconvincing'. You see the problem here?

Bombs are terrifying.

Kind of subjective.

Link's SH camping, better phrased Zoning, is safer than people think.

Yeah but then they'd bring up lack of good rising aerials, 7 frame jump-squat, below average air acceleration, 'what is zoning anyway', and then you'd bring up amazing FF and maybe even remember to mention F-tilt and how shield safety is as much about frame advantage as it is about shield-push and range, and then just, this whole thing, it's all so circular and I hate it. This is why I don't post in that thread.

One more thing, earlier you mentioned something about including things from tourney going Link players. I must have missed that part.

Take from this what you will, leave the rest behind.

 

[Derpnaster]

I think what they meant with the whole Link acts like a heavyweight is that Link is one, kinda has been since 64

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I think what they meant with the whole Link acts like a heavyweight is that Link is one, kinda has been since 64

I was just mucking around.
Besides, if that's what he meant, why not just say it?

 

[Rizen]

Thanks Foxy. I'll add a lot more to that post. It's a WIP.

 

[Deleted member]

Wait a minute here... Link has an even larger window for followups of his Bombs when using Down Throw Bombslide... Which I said was not really worth learning do to me finding it hard... but now I do it consistently so. yeah.
Also Links Bair is really good at keeping out characters with bad or no disjoints due to it's first hit coming out at frame 6 and combos into the 2nd hit as well as it auto cancels out of a Short hop. (Also my preferred way to Edge guard as I'm able to attack with 2 bairs and my UpB and still make it back to ledge).
We also have Links bomb pull recovery... that's a thing.
I'm just gonna stop now.

 

[JohnKnight416]

I've been testing out these Unique Link Combos in the lab and was wondering if anyone can test this out and determine if this a True Combo or not.

The first combo is [Dash Bomb Throw > Utilt].
This combo does a total of 14% damage and is possible to pull off when the opponent is at 0-48%.

The second Link Combo in which I find to work in the same manner the first one is [Dash Bomb Throw > Usmash].
I find this combo to do a total of 23-21% damage and can be pulled off when the opponent is at 0-48%, just like the first combo. The difference in the percentage depends on the close that the opponent is from Link right after getting launched by the final hit of Link's Usmash.

So far I've tested these two combos on Mario and Pit and they both seem to work well on them. But I've haven't really tested them out on Fast Fallers, Heavy weight, and Light weight characters. Nor did I tested to see if Rage would have any effect on these combos due to the fact all of this was tested in Training Mode.

 

[Derpnaster]

they work better with JC throws.

 

[Stryker95]

Nor did I tested to see if Rage would have any effect on these combos due to the fact all of this was tested in Training Mode.

Just so you know, bombs, being items, are not affected by rage. So there is no need to test for that.
If it isn't looked at by the time I get back next week, I'll add it to my list. (Unless Foxy finishes finals first.)

 

[JohnKnight416]

Just so you know, bombs, being items, are not affected by rage. So there is no need to test for that.
If it isn't looked at by the time I get back next week, I'll add it to my list. (Unless Foxy finishes finals first.)

I also want to point out that I've haven't quite mastered Technique allows you to gain momentum when throwing an item so I wasn't able to showcase what that will be like with both of these combos. Though I'm assuming that it'll help Link be able to perform both of these combos at a longer distance.
And thanks for letting me know that Rage has no effect on items. I didn't know about that until now.