Meta Link's Metagame Thread (Informative Quotes Can Be Found in the OP)

[Deleted member]

There is only 1 main thing I want to see in 1.1.6 and you probably guessed it, I want a bayo fix. And yes that's a fix, not a nerf. She is a character who I really like in the world of gameing... and then Smash happened to her and she became the next wave of cancer.
But when it comes to Link stuff, it's hard to say. I kinda like what we have.
Link to me is a character who doesn't focus on comboing opponents off stage, hes not one who tries to outpace other characters by speed. He does not space out or projectile wall opponents as well as many other characters.

What Link is, is a character who focuses on a little bit of everything, with bombs and boomerang and once in a while, an arrow you can kinda wall out opponents but not really well enough. But it's good for pressure. He's pretty good at zoning out characters with his sword but can also get into his opponents faces with moves such as nair and Bair that force opponents to do more then just rush in. Link is one true heavy hitter and yet not as strong as others of the cast.
Link is the jack of traits, now this is usually not a good thing in games but in Smash there is one main thing that I always focus on. Options! There are few times when Link doesn't have a single option to beat and pressure his opponents, and mastering all of these (at many times dumb) options and using them all will make you hard to read and a true force of plenty good stuff.
Oh, and also using Bombslides lead to many easy kill setups including near ledge to Dair spike which usually kills at around 40%.
Truly the best way to display the Hero of the Zeldas.

But really, Sakurai... Give me back the landing lag canceled bomb throws and the jab confirms T__T

[Make huge wall of text for no apparent reason] Check

 

[JohnKnight416]

There is only 1 main thing I want to see in 1.1.6 and you probably guessed it, I want a bayo fix. And yes that's a fix, not a nerf. She is a character who I really like in the world of gameing... and then Smash happened to her and she became the next wave of cancer.
But when it comes to Link stuff, it's hard to say. I kinda like what we have.
Link to me is a character who doesn't focus on comboing opponents off stage, hes not one who tries to outpace other characters by speed. He does not space out or projectile wall opponents as well as many other characters.

What Link is, is a character who focuses on a little bit of everything, with bombs and boomerang and once in a while, an arrow you can kinda wall out opponents but not really well enough. But it's good for pressure. He's pretty good at zoning out characters with his sword but can also get into his opponents faces with moves such as nair and Bair that force opponents to do more then just rush in. Link is one true heavy hitter and yet not as strong as others of the cast.
Link is the jack of traits, now this is usually not a good thing in games but in Smash there is one main thing that I always focus on. Options! There are few times when Link doesn't have a single option to beat and pressure his opponents, and mastering all of these (at many times dumb) options and using them all will make you hard to read and a true force of plenty good stuff.
Oh, and also using Bombslides lead to many easy kill setups including near ledge to Dair spike which usually kills at around 40%.
Truly the best way to display the Hero of the Zeldas.

But really, Sakurai... Give me back the landing lag canceled bomb throws and the jab confirms T__T

[Make huge wall of text for no apparent reason] Check

A lot of people are pretty much asking for Bayonetta to be rebalanced. As I do as well since she's currently ridiculous with those death combos at the moment

As for Link, I'm personally hoping to see some significant buffs made to him in this upcoming patch such as the buff that he recieved for his Grab in the v1.0.8 patch. Buffs such as his special moves being reworked from having their flaws, having better frame data for his entire moveset, and seeing him have better mobility both on the ground and in the air so he can be more of a better Sword Wielding character than he currently is and that there will be opportunities for us to discover new combos and techniques for him that'll change his meta-game overall.

 

[ZSaberLink]

So the data mining consensus was that no character had changed but Bayonetta, right? Oh well, I guess nothing to do here. Btw, did anyone look at the shieldstun for Fair after its buff btw? I honestly feel like that's likely our only attack that it's kind of scary to shield both hits.

 

[Stryker95]

So the data mining consensus was that no character had changed but Bayonetta, right? Oh well, I guess nothing to do here. Btw, did anyone look at the shieldstun for Fair after its buff btw? I honestly feel like that's likely our only attack that it's kind of scary to shield both hits.

Yeah it can be fairly scary, but not shield break material unless their shield is already weak. It deals 9 and 10 frames of blockfreeze (1st hit/2nd hit) and 8 and 9 frames of blockstun. It is +3/+4 on shield drop and -4/-3 on directly OOS. Take into consideration the spacing and it is pretty safe overall when done right.
Edit: As far as shield damage, it deals a total of 28.56 (both hits). A shield has 50 hp and attacks deal 1.19x y (y being whatever damage a move does) of shield damage.
Please correct me if I'm wrong Fox Is Openly Deceptive , I am using this as a source.

 

[ZSaberLink]

Yeah it can be fairly scary, but not shield break material unless their shield is already weak. It deals 9 and 10 frames of blockfreeze (1st hit/2nd hit) and 8 and 9 frames of blockstun. It is +3/+4 on shield drop and -4/-3 on directly OOS. Take into consideration the spacing and it is pretty safe overall when done right.
Edit: As far as shield damage, it deals a total of 28.56 (both hits). A shield has 50 hp and attacks deal 1.19x y (y being whatever damage a move does) of shield damage.
Please correct me if I'm wrong Fox Is Openly Deceptive , I am using this as a source.

I feel like Link could also be a scarier character if his smashes (like USmash & FSmash), were actually pretty strong on shield. USmash honestly seems abnormally weak on shield imo.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Yeah it can be fairly scary, but not shield break material unless their shield is already weak. It deals 9 and 10 frames of blockfreeze (1st hit/2nd hit) and 8 and 9 frames of blockstun. It is +3/+4 on shield drop and -4/-3 on directly OOS. Take into consideration the spacing and it is pretty safe overall when done right.
Edit: As far as shield damage, it deals a total of 28.56 (both hits). A shield has 50 hp and attacks deal 1.19x y (y being whatever damage a move does) of shield damage.
Please correct me if I'm wrong Fox Is Openly Deceptive , I am using this as a source.

That sounds right. http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Shields
Also note that tagging doesn't work when edited in later for some reason.
Not sure why we're talking in the patch thread though. I'll just move the posts over to the meta...

 

[JohnKnight416]

I feel like Link could also be a scarier character if his smashes (like USmash & FSmash), were actually pretty strong on shield. USmash honestly seems abnormally weak on shield imo.

Dsmash is another good move that Link can use for shield breaking. As far as I know, the best way to pull off a Shield Break with it would be to perform a double Jab to Dsmash. Note that you'll more likely to get a guarantee Shield Break if you charge the Dsmash a little before releasing it. Btw, this is just my theory, but I think that there's more shield pressure near the base of the first hit of the Dsmash since that's the strongest point of Link's Dsmash.
Fsmash is also a potential Shield Breaking move for Link, especially if on the 2nd hit of the Fsmash.
As for Usmash, its 3rd hit does a decent amount shield pressure as a I have seen it Shield Break before (when the opponent was at high percent). However, I wouldn't recommend using it for Shield Breaking b/c its side range is shorter compared to Fsmash and Dsmash and that you'll most likely get punished for using Usmash since there's too much Lag off of it. Making Usmash the most risky option for Shield Breaking. Overall, all of Link's Smash attacks do a good amount of shield pressure that could possibly lead into a Shield Break. Fsmash and Dsmash having the most potential at breaking the opponent's Shield.

Other moves from Link that do good shield pressure as far as I know are Dair and Ftilt. Ftilt doing only about around at least 10% shield damage, but is mostly safe to land. Dair has more shield breaking potential compared to Ftilt, but can be punished upon Landing Lag and if both hits of the Dair don't connect on the opponent.

 

[Stryker95]

Here is the raw data on what moves are safe for Link on an opponent's shield. First are Link's moves with the DD and DO of the move. Following that are the opponents OOS with their frame count, what they can do to punish Link's moves. This list already takes into account the 7 frames necessary for a shield to drop on moves that cannot be done directly out of shield. It also takes into account for the 2 frame startup of Link's spotdodge before he can avoid a grab. However, this list does not take into account the range of Link's moves or his opponents, you will have to take that into consideration when checking the safety of a move on your opponent's shield. (The example below gives step by step instructions.)

Also keep in mind that when attacking the back of an opponents shield, they will lose most options that do not require them to drop shield first. Bair is their only guaranteed option, but some may have a Up-B or U-Smash that can reach behind them like we do.

Spoiler: Explanation of DD and DO

DD: Disadvantage drop- this means how many frames the opponent has to punish Link after dropping shield first.
For example, Link’s jab 1 has a DD of 10. If a character has a DD punish of 10 or less, that will punish. OOS will not use DD for this list.

DO: Disadvantage out of shield- this means how many frames a character has to punish Link using a direct OOS, like grab or jump cancelled moves.
For example, Jab 1 has a DO of 17, so if the opponent has a move of 17 or less, that move will punish. All OOS listed are for DO.

Spoiler: Example

Take a move of Link’s, let’s say UTilt. The DO is 20. Now go to the opponent’s character and look at their OOS. If it is 20 or less, that move can punish Link’s UTilt.

Some notes: This is raw data only. This does not account for the reach of a move. For example, the DO of FTilt is 13, so Falcos grab should punish as it is 6 frames. However, if spaced right, Falco cannot reach so he will have to drop shield instead of shield grabbing, adding 7 frames. So now the DO of FTilt is 13 and the grab punish is 13, not accounting for Falco having to run at Link to grab him, making it no longer a punish.

Link has a spotdodge of 3, meaning on the 3rd frame he cannot get grabbed. So Falco’s grab is really 8 frames but because it takes Link 2 frames to spotdodge, it is listed as 6.

For data on shields I used this document by LordWilliam1234 and looked at the advantage drop and advantage out of shield (I called the disadvantage drop and disadvantage out of shield so I don’t have to deal with negative numbers).

For frame data I went to Kurogane Hammer’s site here.

Here are Link’s moves:

Spoiler: Jab

Jab (1): DD: 10 DO: 17
Jab (2): DD: 4, DO: 11
Jab (3): DD: 19 DO: 26

Spoiler: F-Tilt

F-Tilt: DD: 6 DO: 13

Spoiler: D-Tilt

D-Tilt: DD: 2 DO: 9

Spoiler: U-Tilt

U-Tilt: DD: 13 DO: 20

Spoiler: Dash Attack

Dash Attack: DD: 20 DO: 27

Spoiler: F-Smash

F-Smash (1): DD: 23/19 DO: 30/26 (Sourspot/ Sweetspot)
F-Smash (2): DD: 39 DO: 46

Spoiler: D-Smash

D-Smash: DD: 23/13 DO: 30/20 (Hit1/Hit2)

Spoiler: Up-Smash

Up-Smash: DD: 21 DO: 28

Aerials

Spoiler: Nair

Nair: DD: -5/-2 DO: 2/5 (Early hit/ Late hit) Landing lag: 10 Auto-cancel: 1-3, 36>

Spoiler: Fair

Fair: DD:-3/-4 DO: 4/3 (First hit/ second hit) Landing Lag: 12 Auto-cancel: 51>

Spoiler: Bair

Bair: DD: 0/-1 DO: 7/6 (First hit/ Second hit) Landing lag: 10 Auto-cancel: 29>

Spoiler: Dair

Dair: No shield data for some reason Landing lag: 32 Auto-cancel: 1-9, 65>

Spoiler: Upair

Upair: DD: 6 DO: 13 Landing Lag: 23 Auto-Cancel: 1-10, 47>

Spoiler: Zair

Zair: DD: -2/-3 DO: 5/4 (First hit/ Second hit) Landing Lag: 8

Specials

Spoiler: Hero’s Bow (Neutral B)

Hero’s Bow: DD: 13/9 DO: 20/16 (Uncharged/ full charge)

Spoiler: Gale Boomerang (Side B)

Gale Boomerang: DD: 0 DO: 7

Spoiler: Bomb (Down B)

Bomb: DD: DO:

Spoiler: ”Spin Attack (Grounded) (Up-B)"

Spin Attack (Grounded): DD: 52 DO: 59

For Opponents OOS I always had USmash, Grab and Up-B when possible. Bair is added to help one understand how safe a move can be on the opponents shield. Otherwise if a punish takes too long it is omitted.

Spoiler: ”OpponentsOOS”

Spoiler: ”Bayonetta”

Grab: 5
U-Smash: 18
Up-B: 4
FAir: 11
Nair/ UAir: 13
BAir: 15
DTilt/UTilt: 14
Jab: 16
Heel Slide: 22

Spoiler: ”Bowser”

Grab: 7
U-Smash: 16
Up-B: 6
NAir: 16
BAir/ UAir: 17
Jab: 14
FTilt/ DTilt/ DSmash: 17
Dash Attack/ UTilt: 18

Spoiler: ”Bowser Jr”

Grab: 10
U-Smash: 7
Jab/DTilt: 11
FTilt/ UTilt: 14
Dash Attack:15
UAir: 12
Nair: 13
Bair: 18

Spoiler: ”Captain Falcon”

Grab: 5
U-Smash: 22
Up-B: 12
Jab: 10
Dash Attack: 14
FTilt: 16
UAir: 11
Nair: 12
Bair: 15

Spoiler: ”Charizard”

Grab: 6
U-Smash: 7
Up-B: 9
Jab: 11
DTilt/ UTilt: 16
Dash Attack: 17
Fair: 15
Nair: 16
Bair: 21

Spoiler: ”Cloud “

Grab: 5
U-Smash: 15
Up-B: 7
Jab: 11
UTilt: 13
DTilt: 14
DSmash: 15
Dash Attack/ FTilt: 16
Nair: 9
UAir: 11
BAir/ DAir: 15

Spoiler: ”Corrin”

Grab: 5
U-Smash: 13
Up-B: 18
Jab/DTilt: 12
UTilt: 14
FTilt: 15
Nair: 12
Fair/ UAir: 13
BAir: 19

Spoiler: ”Dark Pit”

Grab: 4
U-Smash: 6
Jab: 12
Dash Attack: 14
UTilt/ DTilt: 13
Nair: 9
Bair: 15
Fair: 16

Spoiler: ”Diddy Kong”

Grab: 4
U-Smash: 5
Item toss: 7
Jab: 10
DTilt: 11
DSmash: 13
Fair: 10
BAir: 9
UAir: 8
Nair: 12

Spoiler: ”Donkey Kong”

Grab: 6
U-Smash: 14
Up-B: 19
If DK jumps and then does his up-B: 10
Jab/ UTilt: 12
DTilt: 14
Dash Attack: 16
UAir: 12
Nair: 16
BAir: 13

Spoiler: ”Dr. Mario”

Grab: 4
U-Smash: 9
Up-B: 3
Jab: 9
Dash Attack: 13
UTilt/DTilt/FTilt: 12
Nair: 8
UAir: 9
BAir: 11

Spoiler: ”Duck Hunt”

Grab: 6
U-Smash: 12
Jab: 11
DTilt:13
FTilt/UTilt: 15
Nair/UAir: 10
Fair/ Bair: 11

Spoiler: ”Falco”

Grab: 6
U-Smash: 7
Jab: 9
UTilt: 12
FTilt: 13
DTilt: 14
Dash Attack: 15
Nair: 9
Bair: 10
Uair: 13
Fair: 16

Spoiler: ”Fox”

Grab: 4
U-Smash: 8
Jab: 9
UTilt: 10
Dash Attack: 11
DSmash: 13
FTilt: 13
DTilt: 14
Nair: 8
Fair: 11
BAir: 13

Spoiler: ”Ganondorf”

Grab: 5
U-Smash: 21
Up-B: 12
Jab: 14
UAir: 13
Nair: 14
Bair: 17

Spoiler: ”Greninja”

Grab: 9 (Dash grab is 7 but requires shield to drop and dash to begin first)
U-Smash: 12
Jab: 10
Dash Attack: 14
DTilt: 12
Bair: 9
UAir: 11

Spoiler: ”Ike”

Grab: 5
Up-B: 18
Jab: 11
DTilt: 14
Bair: 14
Nair/ Fair: 19

Spoiler: ”Jiggleypuff”

Grab: 4
U-Smash: 16
Jab/ Dash Attack: 12
FTilt: 14
UTilt: 16
DTilt: 17
Nair: 12
Dair: 13
Fair: 14
UAir: 15
Bair: 18

Spoiler: ”King Dedede”

Grab: 5
U-Smash: 17
DTilt: 13
UTilt: 16
Jab: 17
FTilt: 19
Nair: 13
UAir: 16
BAir: 23

Spoiler: ”Kirby”

Grab: 4
U-Smash: 14
Up-B: 23
Jab: 10
DTilt/ UTilt: 11
FTilt: 12
Bair: 10
Nair/ Fair/ Uair: 14

Spoiler: ”Dark Link”

Grab: 10
U-Smash: 10
Up-B: 8
Bomb toss: 8
Jab: 14
UTilt: 15
DSmash: 16
Bair: 13
Nair: 14

Spoiler: ”Little Mac”

Grab: 7
U-Smash: 10
Up-B: 3
Jolt Haymaker/ KO Punch: 16
Jab: 8
DTilt: 10
UTilt: 11
FTilt: 11
Dash Attack 14
Nair: 7
Uair: 10
Dair: 12
Bair: 16

Spoiler: ”Lucario”

Grab: 4
U-Smash: 15
Jab/ UTilt: 13
Dash Attack: 14
DTilt: 16
Force Palm: 14
Dair: 9
Fair: 12
Nair: 13
Bair: 21

Spoiler: ”Lucas”

Grab: 10
Up-B: 20
Jab: 9
DTilt: 10
UTilt: 11
FTilt: 14
Nair/ Uair: 12
Fair: 14
Bair: 20
Zair: 14

Spoiler: ”Lucina”

Grab: 5
U-Smash: 13
Up-B: 5
Jab: 12
UTilt/ DSmash: 13
DTilt: 14
FTilt: 15
FSmash: 17
Uair: 10
Nair/ Fair: 11
Bair: 12
Dair: 14

Spoiler: ”Luigi”

Grab: 4
U-Smash: 9
Up-B: 8
Jab: 9
Dash Attack: 11
FTilt/ UTilt/DTilt: 12
DSmash: 13
Cyclone: 17
Nair: 8
Uair: 10
Bair: 11
Fair: 12
Dair: 15

Spoiler: ”Mario”

Grab: 4
U-Smash: 9
Up-B: 3
Jab: 9
Dash Attack: 13
FTilt/DTilt/UTilt: 12
DSmash:12
Nair: 8
UAir: 9
DAir: 10
Bair: 11

Spoiler: ”Marth”

Grab: 5
U-Smash: 13
Up-B: 6
Jab: 12
UTilt/ DSmash: 13
DTilt: 14
FTilt: 15
FSmash: 17
UAir: 10
Nair/ Fair: 11
Bair: 12
Dair: 14

Spoiler: ”Mega Man”

Grab: 4
U-Smash: 8
Jab: 14
Dash Attack: 15
Item Toss: 11
DTilt: 12
UTilt: 13
FTilt: 14
Bair: 8
Nair: 11
Fair: 13

Spoiler: ”Meta Knight”

Grab: 5
U-Smash: 8
Up-B: 8
Dash Attack: 14
DTilt: 10
FTilt: 13
UTilt: 15
DSmash: 11
Dair: 8
Uair/ Nair: 10
Bair: 11
Fair: 13

Spoiler: ”Mewtwo”

Grab: 5
U-Smash: 9
Jab/ DTilt: 13
UTilt: 15
Dash Attack/ FTilt: 17
Fair: 11
Nair: 12
Uair: 16
Bair: 19

Spoiler: ”Mii Brawler”

Grab: 4
U-Smash: 8
Up-B 1: 16
Up-B 2: 8
Up-B 3: 4
Jab: 9
UTilt: 12
FTilt/ Dash Attack: 13
DTilt: 14
DSmash: 16
Nair: 8
UAir: 11
Bair: 12
Fair: 13

Spoiler: ”Mii Gunner”

Grab: 4
U-Smash: 11
Up-B 2: 11
Jab/ UTilt: 12
DTilt: 15
DSmash: 16
FTilt/ Dash Attack: 17

Spoiler: ”Mii Swordsmen”

Grab: 4
U-Smash: 11
Up-B 1: 13
Up-B 2: 24
Up-B 3: 8
DTilt: 12
Jab: 13
DSmash: 14
UTilt: 15
Dash Attack: 16
Bair: 15
Nair/ Fair/ Uair: 18

Spoiler: ”Mr. Game and Watch”

Grab: 4
U-Smash: 24
Up-B: 9
Jab: 11
Dash Attack/ DTilt: 13
FTilt/ UTilt: 17
Uair: 11
Nair: 12
Fair/ Bair: 15

Spoiler: ”Ness”

Grab: 4
U-Smash: 6
Up-B: 20
Jab/ DTilt: 10
FTilt/UTilt: 14
Dash Attack: 15
DSmash: 17
Nair: 10
UAir/ Fair: 13
Bair: 15

Spoiler: ”Olimar”

Grab: 8
U-Smash: 12
Jab: 11
UTilt/ DTilt: 13
Dash Attack: 15
DSmash: 17
Nair/ Fair: 12
UAir: 13
Dair: 14
Bair: 15

Spoiler: ”Pac-Man”

Grab: 10
U-Smash: 13
Up-B: 4
Item toss: 8
Jab: 11
FTilt: 12
UTilt/ DTilt: 14
Dash Attack: 17
Nair: 8
Fair: 10
Dair: 11
Bair/ Uair: 14

Spoiler: ”Palutena”

Grab: 5
U-Smash: 18
Dash Attack: 13
Jab: 15
UTilt: 17
Nair: 10
Bair/ Uair: 13
Fair: 14
Dair: 15

Spoiler: ”Peach’

Grab: 4
U-Smash: 14
Up-B: 7
Jab: 9
Dash Attack/ DSmash: 13
FTilt: 14
UTilt: 16
Nair: 10
Bair: 11
Uair: 15

Spoiler: ”Pikachu”

Grab: 4
U-Smash: 10
Up-B: 15
Jab: 9
Dash Attack/ FTilt: 13
UTilt/ DTilt: 14
DSmash: 15
Nair: 7
Bair/ Uair: 8
Fair: 14

Spoiler: ”Pit”

Grab: 4
U-Smash: 6
Jab: 12
Dash Attack: 14
UTilt/ DTilt: 13
Nair: 9
Bair: 15
Fair: 16

Spoiler: ”ROB”

Grab: 5
U-Smash: 10
Item Toss (Gyro in hand): 7
Jab/ DTilt: 10
UTilt: 11
Dash Attack/ FTilt: 14
Fair: 11
UAir: 12
Bair: 24
Gyro: 16

Spoiler: ”Robin”

Grab: 5
U-Smash: 12
Up-B: 8
Jab: 11
UTilt: 13
DTilt: 14
Dash Attack: 15
FTilt: 16
Nair/ Bair: 16
UAir: 17

Spoiler: ”Rosalina and Luma”

Spoiler: ”Rosalina”

Grab: 4
U-Smash: 8
Jab: 15
Dash Attack: 13
DTilt: 12
DSmash: 13
FTilt: 14
UTilt: 16
Nair: 14
Fair: 16
Bair: 14
UAir: 13

Spoiler: ”Luma”

U-Smash: 10
Jab: 11
Dash Attack: 13
FTilt: 15
UTilt: 11
DTilt: 12
DSmash: 13
Nair: 8
Bair: 15
Fair: 16
UAir: 8

Spoiler: ”Roy”

Grab: 5
U-Smash: 12
Up-B: 9
Jab: 12
UTilt/ DSmash: 13
DTilt: 14
FTilt: 15
Nair: 11
UAir: 10
Bair: 13
Fair:15

Spoiler: ”Ryu”

L= Light
M= Medium
H= Heavy
Grab: 4
U-Smash: 9
Up-B: 6 LMH, 7 Grounded
Tatsumaki Senpukyaku: 15
Tatsumaki Senpukyaku:17 LMH
Jab: 9 L, 16 M
Dash Attack: 14
FTilt: 15 L, 20 M
UTilt: 10 L, 14 M
DTilt: 9 L, 14 M
DSmash: 12
Nair: 9
UAir: 11
Bair/ Dair: 15

Spoiler: ”Samus”

Grab: 14
U-Smash: 11
Up-B: 5
Jab: 10
DTilt: 13
Dash Attack/ Ftilt: 15
DSmash: 16
FSmash: 17
Uair: 9
Fair: 10
Nair/ Zair: 12
Bair: 13

Spoiler: ”Sheik”

Grab: 4
U-Smash: 11
Needles: 12 for <6, 18 for >5
Jab: 9
Dash Attack/ FTilt/ UTilt/ DTilt: 12
DSmash: 18
FSmash: 19
Nair: 7
BAir/ UAir: 8
Fair: 9

Spoiler: ”Shulk”

Grab: 5
U-Smash: 18
Up-B: 10
Jab: 12
DTilt: 17
UTilt: 18
Nair: 18
Fair/ UAir/Dair: 19
Bair: 23

Spoiler: ”Sonic”

Grab: 4
U-Smash: 19
Jab: 10
Dash Attack: 12
FTilt/ DTilt: 13
UTilt: 14
Fair/ Uair: 10
Nair: 11
Bair: 18

Spoiler: ”Toon Link”

Grab: 10
U-Smash: 11
Up-B: 9
Bomb toss: 8
Jab: 13
UTilt: 15
DTilt/ FTilt/ DSmash: 16
Nair: 11
Bair: 12
UAir: 16
ZAir: 16

Spoiler: ”Villager”

Grab: 13
U-Smash: 12
Jab: 10
UTilt: 14
FTilt/ DSmash: 15
DTilt: 16
Axe: 13
Nair: 8
Fair: 15
Bair: 18
UAir: 13
DAir: 15

Spoiler: ”Wario”

Grab: 6
U-Smash: 11
Up-B: 6
Chomp: 6
Waft: Ranges from 12-23
Jab/ DSmash: 15
Dash Attack: 11
DTilt: 12
UTilt/ FTilt: 19
Nair: 10
Fair: 11
UAir: 14
Bair/ DAir: 15

Spoiler: ”Wii Fit Trainer”

Grab: 4
U-Smash: 14
Up-B: 8
Jab: 11
UTilt: 12
FTilt: 13
DTilt: 14
Bair: 10
UAir: 11
Fair: 14

Spoiler: ”Yoshi”

Grab: 12
U-Smash: 11
Up-B: 15
Jab: 10
FTilt: 12
DSmash: 14
UTilt/ DTilt: 15
Dash Attack: 17
Nair: 9
UAir: 11
Bair: 17

Spoiler: ”Zelda”

Grab: 8
U-Smash: 9
Up-B: 7
Jab: 18
DSmash/ DTilt: 12
Dash Attack: 13
UTilt: 14
FTilt: 17
Nair/ Bair: 12
Fair: 15

Spoiler: ”ZSS”

Grab: 14
U-Smash: 10
Up-B: 4
Jab: 8
UTilt: 10
FTilt: 13
Dash Attack: 14
DTilt: 15
Fair/ UAir: 10
Bair: 12
Nair: 14
Zair: 13

 

[epicnights]

So if landing N-air is nearly 100% safe on anyone's shield bar those with fast up-b OoS like Mario, is there any way to ensure a cross-up with N-air on someone's shield? That would make approaching a shielding opponent a lot easier, especially against someone like Diddy who will have banana OoS.

 

[Stryker95]

So if landing N-air is nearly 100% safe on anyone's shield bar those with fast up-b OoS like Mario, is there any way to ensure a cross-up with N-air on someone's shield? That would make approaching a shielding opponent a lot easier, especially against someone like Diddy who will have banana OoS.

Okay, for the example of Diddy holding a banana and in shield. Upon hitting his shield with NAir he cannot punish with grab as he has a banana (shield grab becomes banana throw). We can shield or spotdodge the banana but other than that we have no followups to NAir that will beat the banana. Timed perfectly (getting the 2 DO) we have a 5 frame advantage but because nothing we have comes out in 5 frames we most likely have to go for a defensive option.
Edit: We could also roll (4 frames).
Edit2: It was brought to my attention that we can also catch the banana so long as Jab, DTilt, or FTilt is inputted. The frames to catch are 1-5, otherwise the item will not be caught.

 

[Catana]

ily stryker and foxy, you're truly the future of link's meta. unlike that fraud @ScizorVX

 

[ZSaberLink]

Okay, for the example of Diddy holding a banana and in shield. Upon hitting his shield with NAir he cannot punish with grab as he has a banana (shield grab becomes banana throw). We can shield or spotdodge the banana but other than that we have no followups to NAir that will beat the banana. Timed perfectly (getting the 2 DO) we have a 5 frame advantage but because nothing we have comes out in 5 frames we most likely have to go for a defensive option.
Edit: We could also roll (4 frames).
Edit2: It was brought to my attention that we can also catch the banana so long as Jab, DTilt, or FTilt is inputted. The frames to catch are 1-5, otherwise the item will not be caught.

Don't you just need to beat out his banana throw or specials in that case? His banana throw is 7 frames just like our bomb pull, so a pivot jab would beat it right? Or are we assuming Link gets the 10 frames of landing lag in this example because he just pulled out the Nair due to the strong hit?

 

[Stryker95]

Don't you just need to beat out his banana throw or specials in that case? His banana throw is 7 frames just like our bomb pull, so a pivot jab would beat it right? Or are we assuming Link gets the 10 frames of landing lag in this example because he just pulled out the Nair due to the strong hit?

I am not quite sure what you are asking. In the example, we are still going through landing lag, we have to go through it before we can act. Meanwhile Diddy can act right after the shield stun is over. Looking at the chart the math totals to us being 2/5 frames behind Diddy. Diddy's throw begins frame 7, so we have 5/2 frames to input something. So long as we input a jab before the banana hits us (unless it can connect on frame 7, then we will get hit no matter what, we can only begin to catch it on frame 8) we can catch the banana. You can try to pivot jab but I am sure it won't be any better, you may as well just catch it rather than pivot catch it and risk it hitting you before you can input the jab off the pivot.

 

[ZSaberLink]

I am not quite sure what you are asking. In the example, we are still going through landing lag, we have to go through it before we can act. Meanwhile Diddy can act right after the shield stun is over. Looking at the chart the math totals to us being 2/5 frames behind Diddy. Diddy's throw begins frame 7, so we have 5/2 frames to input something. So long as we input a jab before the banana hits us (unless it can connect on frame 7, then we will get hit no matter what, we can only begin to catch it on frame 8) we can catch the banana. You can try to pivot jab but I am sure it won't be any better, you may as well just catch it rather than pivot catch it and risk it hitting you before you can input the jab off the pivot.

Ah ok, I misinterpreted what you said. You mentioned we have a 5 frame advantage, but like you said it's kind of useless the second you land because of the 10 frames of landing lag.

In that case, if Link were throw out a Nair and go behind Diddy to hit his shield, but did it early enough to autocancel (so with a full jump), would be safer then right?

 

[Stryker95]

You mentioned we have a 5 frame advantage,

In that case, if Link were throw out a Nair and go behind Diddy to hit his shield, but did it early enough to autocancel (so with a full jump), would be safer then right?

It is actually a 5 frame disadvantage (DO). If it was a negative number it would mean an advantage.
And yes if you were to auto cancel it and land behind him it would be safer.

 

[JohnKnight416]

Does anyone know if there's possibility that Link's Dair can actually Lock his opponent? I heard that it wasn't possible at first, but
I was just recently watching this Youtube video and I've noticed something peculiar happen at around 0:19 of the video. If you watch carefully, you can see that Link just put his opponent into what looks like a Lock state right when his Dair connected with his opponent.

If you're reading this Fox, can you please analyse this video and confirm if Link's Dair actually Locked his opponent in place?

The link to the video is listed right here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOgzv8r1dkI

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Does anyone know if there's possibility that Link's Dair can actually Lock his opponent? I heard that it wasn't possible at first, but
I was just recently watching this Youtube video and I've noticed something peculiar happen at around 0:19 of the video. If you watch carefully, you can see that Link just put his opponent into what looks like a Lock state right when his Dair connected with his opponent.

If you're reading this Fox, can you please analyse this video and confirm if Link's Dair actually Locked his opponent in place?

The link to the video is listed right here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOgzv8r1dkI

It used to be able to lock. Not anymore. Look at the date of the video.

 

[epicnights]

It doesn't lock anymore since the change in 1.1.3.
Edit:

 

[JohnKnight416]

It used to be able to lock. Not anymore. Look at the date of the video.

Whelp, so much for thinking that this was a possible new discovery. Btw, what exactly was the change from the 1.1.3 patch that caused this to happen with Link's Dair?

 

[ZSaberLink]

Whelp, so much for thinking that this was a possible new discovery. Btw, what exactly was the change from the 1.1.3 patch that caused this to happen with Link's Dair?

They added a different hibox for Link's DAir when the opponent is on the ground, getting rid of the techable situation. No idea why though.

 

[JohnKnight416]

They added a different hibox for Link's DAir when the opponent is on the ground, getting rid of the techable situation. No idea why though.

I assume the purpose for that was to perhaps help Link avoid getting punish on Landing Lag w/ the Dair if the opponent Tech rolled it. Even though this change allows Link to no longer spike grounded opponents anymore, it did leave him with more combo options with his Dair.

Here's a video demonstrating what I mean by Link now having more Dair combos since 1.1.3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3lzNuleE2A
Timestamp (0:44)

Also, shout-outs to Wheo for making this video!

 

[Stryker95]

I assume the purpose for that was to perhaps help Link avoid getting punish on Landing Lag w/ the Dair if the opponent Tech rolled it. Even though this change allows Link to no longer spike grounded opponents anymore, it did leave him with more combo options with his Dair.

Here's a video demonstrating what I mean by Link now having more Dair combos since 1.1.3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3lzNuleE2A
Timestamp (0:44)

Also, shout-outs to Wheo for making this video!

While these are nice, I am pretty sure Foxy debunked it somewhere and I did it again later. These may be possible but remember they aren't true. Except maybe at some specific percents, I tested by 5 percent increments.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

it did leave him with more combo options with his Dair.

Link now having more Dair combos since 1.1.3

Actually no.

shout-outs to Wheo

lol Wheo.

 

[JohnKnight416]

While these are nice, I am pretty sure Foxy debunked it somewhere and I did it again later. These may be possible but remember they aren't true. Except maybe at some specific percents, I tested by 5 percent increments.

I've practiced this combo myself and found it to be a true combo at around Low Percents from around 5-30%. I was able to pull it off by landing the Dair on top of the forehead of your opponent's character to be able to follow up with the second hit from the Dair. I've found it to be easier to pull on bigger characters such as DK and Charizard. Even though it's confirmed that this combo also works on lighter characters, it can be somewhat harder to pull off. However, that could be b/c I've haven't practice this combo much on the lighter characters than I did with the bigger characters.
A factor that may affect this combo that is to be considered is when Link is at max Rage, which can cause the Knockback of the first hit Dair to be too high for the second Dair to land.

Actually no.

lol Wheo.

Well tbh, this may not all have been an outcome since the 1.1.3 patch but it was phenomenal to me when I first saw this video.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I've practiced this combo myself and found it to be a true combo at around Low Percents from around 5-30%.

You don't know what a 'true combo' is and neither does Wheo, and frankly I'm tired of explaining it.

Well tbh, this may not all have been an outcome since the 1.1.3 patch but it was phenomenal to me when I first saw this video.

The Dair pogo stuff outlined in the video was possible since the start of the game; the specific part of Dair that was changed in the patch was not even used in the video (contrary to the claim).

 

[Stryker95]

I've practiced this combo myself and found it to be a true combo at around Low Percents from around 5-30%. I was able to pull it off by landing the Dair on top of the forehead of your opponent's character to be able to follow up with the second hit from the Dair. I've found it to be easier to pull on bigger characters such as DK and Charizard. Even though it's confirmed that this combo also works on lighter characters, it can be somewhat harder to pull off. However, that could be b/c I've haven't practice this combo much on the lighter characters than I did with the bigger characters.
A factor that may affect this combo that is to be considered is when Link is at max Rage, which can cause the Knockback of the first hit Dair to be too high for the second Dair to land.

Like Foxy already said, you don't quite understand a true combo. While this CAN connect, it is not GUARANTEED to connect. The opponent can DI away and then airdodge. The combo counter doesn't matter because it doesn't work. Check out the dictionary for more help on the meanings of words and phrases.

 

[JohnKnight416]

Like Foxy already said, you don't quite understand a true combo. While this CAN connect, it is not GUARANTEED to connect. The opponent can DI away and then airdodge. The combo counter doesn't matter because it doesn't work. Check out the dictionary for more help on the meanings of words and phrases.

Yeah, I didn't realize the error that I've made up until now. Tbh, I actually meant to say 'Combo' instead of 'True Combo'. So apologies for that misspelling right there as I still have trouble wrapping my head around with the differences of the definition between 'Combo' and 'True Combo'.

 

[Rizen]

Here's a useful chart with frame data, shield drop advantage etc.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GaDXAPQJlz0AiIYSSOWFwy_dg04Rrq4a-YF9-VDOhZI/edit#gid=0

 

[JohnKnight416]

Here's a useful chart with frame data, shield drop advantage etc.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GaDXAPQJlz0AiIYSSOWFwy_dg04Rrq4a-YF9-VDOhZI/edit#gid=0

Why does the Frame Data for Link's Dthrow varies whenever he performs it on Jigglypuff, WFT, and Bowser?

Edit:
Can anyone confirm if Fair (both hits) > full Jabs is a Combo at around 0-Low Percents on characters that are at least as tall as Link?

Also I've watched this video that has just been uploaded which talks about Autocanceling Link's Dair and have been wondering what sort of stuff can be created from this Technique such as Combo Setups.
Idk if this has already been reviewed by anyone. But if so I would appreciate it if someone mentions it and sends me a link to their thread.

 

[Stryker95]

Why does the Frame Data for Link's Dthrow varies whenever he performs it on Jigglypuff, WFT, and Bowser?

If you go to Kurogane's site and go to Link's DThrow you will see that it is weight dependent. So it's not that it is only different on those 3 characters, it is just that those were the three characters chosen to test on (lightest, middle weight, and heaviest).

Can anyone confirm if Fair (both hits) > full Jabs is a Combo at around 0-Low Percents on characters that are at least as tall as Link?

A combo? Sure, why not? A true combo... sometimes? I haven't been able to land both hits of FAir after full hopping at the opponent (I chose to test on Link) but when I did a ledge release short hop FAir I did get it to be true even if the opponent DIs away (but barely, just clipped his heel). Keep in mind that doing the ledge release FAir, Link can move towards the opponent as he is hitting the FAir and landing, making it more possible to connect
Finally, try not to double post. You can always just edit your last post, we will probably see it unless it is edited some time later.
EDIT: If you buffer a FAir out of a short hop you can get both hits. I held in with Link to keep him as close as possible to Dark Link and DId away with Dark Link. Link wasn't able to reach with jab if Dark Link DIs away.

 

[JohnKnight416]

If you go to Kurogane's site and go to Link's DThrow you will see that it is weight dependent. So it's not that it is only different on those 3 characters, it is just that those were the three characters chosen to test on (lightest, middle weight, and heaviest).

I've heard about Kurogane before and that I've have seen their web page to all the character's weight.

A combo? Sure, why not? A true combo... sometimes? I haven't been able to land both hits of FAir after full hopping at the opponent (I chose to test on Link) but when I did a ledge release short hop FAir I did get it to be true even if the opponent DIs away (but barely, just clipped his heel). Keep in mind that doing the ledge release FAir, Link can move towards the opponent as he is hitting the FAir and landing, making it more possible to connect

I remember seeing this combo on a video that show cased some of Link's combos on Palutana in Training Mode and that this one registered as a Combo at around 1:43. But since this video was made around when the game first released, I wasn't so sure if this was still a possible Combo for Link due to the recent patch updates that were made to this game.

Finally, try not to double post. You can always just edit your last post, we will probably see it unless it is edited some time later.

Yeah. I should probably re-edit my posts instead of creating new ones. I'll try to keep that in mind if I ever happen to come up with something new to post.

 

[JohnKnight416]

Hey guys! Did you know that whenever Link usually perform a Bomb Catch offstage to Edge Guard, he'll usually have to be facing towards the ledge of the stage in order to re-grab the Bomb with an aerial. Well what if I told you that he doesn't necessarily have to be facing the stage to perform an offstage Bomb Catch and that it's possible for him to perform it while facing offstage.

I was just watching over this video and something interesting caught my eye. At 2:00 of this video, notice how Link performed a Zair Bomb Drop near the ledge after an Aerial Bomb pull out. And then after that, he executes a Dair right when he was falling off the ledge and at that same exact moment, He catches the Bomb with the Dair while still being offstage.

Despite the fact that there weren't any follow ups with the Bomb right after the Dair during the rest of the video, but this does confirm that Link has an alternative way to perform a Bomb catch offstage without having to be facing the ledge.

It could also be possible for Link to perform any Aerial besides Dair to catch the Bomb offstage and to perform different kinds Follow Ups right afterwards to Edge Guard his opponent. One good offstage setup that I have in mind is right after a Zair Bomb Drop near the ledge of the stage, Link can use Nair to catch the Bomb and then perform an Aerial Spin Attack. This type of setup can allow Link to be aggressive offstage and that the Bomb Explosion can allow him to either make his way back safely to the stage, or give him another chance at sending his opponent further offstage if they somehow happen to survive.

Also keep in mind that Link still has his 2nd Jump during this offstage Bomb catch setup, which is a factor that can help expand his follow up options for Edge Guarding.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Hey guys! Did you know that whenever Link usually perform a Bomb Catch offstage to Edge Guard, he'll usually have to be facing towards the ledge of the stage in order to re-grab the Bomb with an aerial. Well what if I told you that he doesn't necessarily have to be facing the stage to perform an offstage Bomb Catch and that it's possible for him to perform it while facing offstage.

I was just watching over this video and something interesting caught my eye. At 2:00 of this video, notice how Link performed a Zair Bomb Drop near the ledge after an Aerial Bomb pull out. And then after that, he executes a Dair right when he was falling off the ledge and at that same exact moment, He catches the Bomb with the Dair while still being offstage.

Despite the fact that there weren't any follow ups with the Bomb right after the Dair during the rest of the video, but this does confirm that Link has an alternative way to perform a Bomb catch offstage without having to be facing the ledge.

It could also be possible for Link to perform any Aerial besides Dair to catch the Bomb offstage and to perform different kinds Follow Ups right afterwards to Edge Guard his opponent. One good offstage setup that I have in mind is right after a Zair Bomb Drop near the ledge of the stage, Link can use Nair to catch the Bomb and then perform an Aerial Spin Attack. This type of setup can allow Link to be aggressive offstage and that the Bomb Explosion can allow him to either make his way back safely to the stage, or give him another chance at sending his opponent further offstage if they somehow happen to survive.

Also keep in mind that Link still has his 2nd Jump during this offstage Bomb catch setup, which is a factor that can help expand his follow up options for Edge Guarding.

Something similar was mentioned a while ago http://smashboards.com/threads/link...-found-in-the-op.379659/page-35#post-20398213
I don't think it's been fully explored though.

 

[JohnKnight416]

Something similar was mentioned a while ago http://smashboards.com/threads/link...-found-in-the-op.379659/page-35#post-20398213
I don't think it's been fully explored though.

Okay. I've just looked at the thread and found out from it that is possible to catch the Bomb with Link's Dair, however, it didn't mention whether or not it was possible to catch the bomb in time with any Link's other aerials besides Dair. I'll to test this out whenever I have the time to do so. This is the most important step to this setup.

 

[DarkDeity15]

Landing Bair (both hits) to another Bair can work if you can land Bair 1 inside of Link and then immediately fast fall to where the very back of the second hit will land (preferably from a SH). You can get both hits of Fsmash to work like this out of Bair as well, while Usmash can work regardless of whether or not you hit the opponent with the inner hitboxes of Bair 1 at low %s, same with grab. However if you do, these follow-ups will work until later %s. After the second Bair, you are able to follow up with an aerial spin attack most of the time, but unfortunately that's about it. You will miss the 3rd Bair every time, even against fatties. Doesn't really work as well against smaller characters though when going for the second Bair.

 

[JohnKnight416]

Just finished watching a video on 2-Frame Punish and I've started wondering what' would the best ways for Link to use this technique to his advantage.

I'm guessing that Link's Ftilt & Dsmash would both be capable for catching his opponents during the 2-Frame Punish if Link decides to catch them while standing at the ledge of the stage.
If he goes for the 2-Frame Punish offstage, then Dair would be the most effective move at getting a guaranteed KO if you managed to get the spike off, however, it has the hug drawback of making yourself vulnerable for a punish on whiff. But to compensate for that, I think that throwing a bomb downwards, against the side of the ledge, or Zair dropping the bomb off the ledge while landing right next to the ledge can help catch the opponent during the 2-Frame Punish which will allow yourself to go for the opportunity to get the Dair spike on them.

This is just one of the many possible ideas that I can come up with for Link. What you guys think about this idea and what are some alternative way in which you can come up with that'll help Link make some effective use with this technique.

Note that this technique is strongly based on precise timing, but can be extremely rewarding when successfully pulled off. Also to keep in mind that even though Link's Hitboxes on Spin Attack will protect him from getting 2-Frame punished as stated at 6:07 of the video, there could possibly be a chance for him to still be punish such as when he's suddenly in the position of getting 2-Frame Punish. In order to ensure that Link truly avoids getting 2-Frame Punish, the most optimal option, in which I can think of, would be to use a Beefy UpB which btw is explained at around 6:53 of the video.

 

[ZSaberLink]

Just finished watching a video on 2-Frame Punish and I've started wondering what' would the best ways for Link to use this technique to his advantage.

I'm guessing that Link's Ftilt & Dsmash would both be capable for catching his opponents during the 2-Frame Punish if Link decides to catch them while standing at the ledge of the stage.
If he goes for the 2-Frame Punish offstage, then Dair would be the most effective move at getting a guaranteed KO if you managed to get the spike off, however, it has the hug drawback of making yourself vulnerable for a punish on whiff. But to compensate for that, I think that throwing a bomb downwards, against the side of the ledge, or Zair dropping the bomb off the ledge while landing right next to the ledge can help catch the opponent during the 2-Frame Punish which will allow yourself to go for the opportunity to get the Dair spike on them.

This is just one of the many possible ideas that I can come up with for Link. What you guys think about this idea and what are some alternative way in which you can come up with that'll help Link make some effective use with this technique.

Note that this technique is strongly based on precise timing, but can be extremely rewarding when successfully pulled off. Also to keep in mind that even though Link's Hitboxes on Spin Attack will protect him from getting 2-Frame punished as stated at 6:07 of the video, there could possibly be a chance for him to still be punish such as when he's suddenly in the position of getting 2-Frame Punish. In order to ensure that Link truly avoids getting 2-Frame Punish, the most optimal option, in which I can think of, would be to use a Beefy UpB which btw is explained at around 6:53 of the video.

I was actually thinking that it may be better to use Nair in that case. Does the bomb behave similarly to Diddy's banana if you throw it into the stage? Just curious whether we could throw the bomb into the stage and let it fall, and then Nair/Bair the opponent to edgeguard them.

 

[JohnKnight416]

I was actually thinking that it may be better to use Nair in that case. Does the bomb behave similarly to Diddy's banana if you throw it into the stage? Just curious whether we could throw the bomb into the stage and let it fall, and then Nair/Bair the opponent to edgeguard them.

It can work in similar manners. Though keep in mind that the type of stage that you're on will determine where your Bomb will go once it hits the ledge of the stage.

For example, if you're on stages where the ledge is perpendicular like the the ledges on the Duck Hunt Stage, then the bomb will bounce right back towards you which will allow you to catch it with your Dair and at the same time, if you get the timing right, you'll also be able to get the spike off when your opponent tries to make it back to the stage. An example that demonstrates this Edge Guard setup, which involves you throwing the bomb at the ledge and catch it with an Aerial, is shown right here.

However, if you're on stages where the ledge of the stage is slightly angular like on Battlefield. Then you'll have to be more precise when throwing your Bombs at the ledge. I've found out for myself back when I was practicing this particular Edge Guard setup that when I've threw the Bomb at the lower slope part of the stage underneath Battlefield, the Bomb bounce off and fell downwards an I was unable to catch it. Only when the Bomb hit the tip of the ledge was I then able to make it bounce off at the right angle for me to catch it. So in other words, this setup becomes a bit harder for you to catch your Bombs if the stage walls aren't perpendicular.

 

[link7]

I want to try this with some of you guys. I'll be the Corrin.

 

[JohnKnight416]

I want to try this with some of you guys. I'll be the Corrin.

You know, Link's Uthrow would seal the deal when the opponent's percentage is above at least 160%.
But besides that, this setup overall would greatly depend on percent range and how well the opponent can mash their way out of the grab. You should probably test how many Pummels that Link can get in through different percentages with his opponent before they can mash their way out.
Also, this setup seems possible to pull off with ZSS' NeutralB as well.