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Meta Link's Metagame Thread (Informative Quotes Can Be Found in the OP)

Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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Just so you know, Stryker finished the U-throw kill percents, which can be found here http://smashboards.com/threads/link...-found-in-the-op.379659/page-42#post-21084473 as well as in the third OP of this thread. I still find it very surprising just how reliable U-throw can be to finish the stock, especially on the right stage, and especially when Link has a decent amount of rage. It would otherwise have never occurred to me that getting a grab when the opponent is under like 120% would be enough in the right circumstances. You should familiarise yourself with these percents, even if it's just for a few specific MU's you have trouble with.
 

ZSaberLink

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Just so you know, Stryker finished the U-throw kill percents, which can be found here http://smashboards.com/threads/link...-found-in-the-op.379659/page-42#post-21084473 as well as in the third OP of this thread. I still find it very surprising just how reliable U-throw can be to finish the stock, especially on the right stage, and especially when Link has a decent amount of rage. It would otherwise have never occurred to me that getting a grab when the opponent is under like 120% would be enough in the right circumstances. You should familiarise yourself with these percents, even if it's just for a few specific MU's you have trouble with.

Hm I took another look at it, and that's pretty cool. If Link is at full rage (150% or more), UThrow will kill EVERY character (even Bowser) at 150% or less.... that's kind of crazy. Wait... DK survives longer than Bowser for the UThrow? That doesn't make sense....

Also, I was messing around with TLink's bomb juggling and noticed you can't do it with Link. Does this have to do with Toon Link's bomb just being slower in the air compared to Link's?
 
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Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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Wait... DK survives longer than Bowser for the UThrow? That doesn't make sense....
It makes perfect sense. http://smashboards.com/threads/character-survival-rankings.400617/
There's more to knockback calculation than just weight. Note DDD's survival against U-throw.

Does this have to do with Toon Link's bomb just being slower in the air compared to Link's?
While it is true that Toon's Bomb will travel ever so slightly less far than Link's Bomb when thrown by the same character, this is not the main reason why Toon can perform BFO's while Link can't. Toon can still do BFO's using Link's Bombs even though they both have the same FAF on their item throw. In ascending order of importance, what matters is the specific Bomb used, their top air speed, and most importantly their item toss strength.
 

SalemtheEngineer

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Just so you know, Stryker finished the U-throw kill percents, which can be found here http://smashboards.com/threads/link...-found-in-the-op.379659/page-42#post-21084473 as well as in the third OP of this thread. I still find it very surprising just how reliable U-throw can be to finish the stock, especially on the right stage, and especially when Link has a decent amount of rage. It would otherwise have never occurred to me that getting a grab when the opponent is under like 120% would be enough in the right circumstances. You should familiarise yourself with these percents, even if it's just for a few specific MU's you have trouble with.
Link’s U-throw is really good. I never knew it was an option to end a stock until my friend told me. Thankfully Link is also one of those characters who benefit a lot from rage. So you could damage yourself with bombs to build up rage and end the stock earlier (assuming you know how to without getting KO‘d).
 

ZSaberLink

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Link’s U-throw is really good. I never knew it was an option to end a stock until my friend told me. Thankfully Link is also one of those characters who benefit a lot from rage. So you could damage yourself with bombs to build up rage and end the stock earlier (assuming you know how to without getting KO‘d).
Problem is that grab is still a pretty risky option for Link at those same %s.
 

DarkDeity15

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Link’s U-throw is really good. I never knew it was an option to end a stock until my friend told me. Thankfully Link is also one of those characters who benefit a lot from rage. So you could damage yourself with bombs to build up rage and end the stock earlier (assuming you know how to without getting KO‘d).
There's no point to that. Just eat damage from your opponent instead if you like rage that much.
 

ZSaberLink

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It makes perfect sense. http://smashboards.com/threads/character-survival-rankings.400617/
There's more to knockback calculation than just weight. Note DDD's survival against U-throw.


While it is true that Toon's Bomb will travel ever so slightly less far than Link's Bomb when thrown by the same character, this is not the main reason why Toon can perform BFO's while Link can't. Toon can still do BFO's using Link's Bombs even though they both have the same FAF on their item throw. In ascending order of importance, what matters is the specific Bomb used, their top air speed, and most importantly their item toss strength.
Oh ok. You learn something new every day! Item toss strength makes sense on why Link can't do the juggles. What does BFO stand for exactly?

So I just learned about the gravity stat and noticed that Link's isn't actually all that high in the cast (like 20th or so). I assume the main things that factor into being "combo food" is gravity, air dodge speed and quickest aerial attack speed (aka our frame 7 Nair)? Is there other stuff involved?
 

DarkDeity15

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Oh ok. You learn something new every day! Item toss strength makes sense on why Link can't do the juggles. What does BFO stand for exactly?

So I just learned about the gravity stat and noticed that Link's isn't actually all that high in the cast (like 20th or so). I assume the main things that factor into being "combo food" is gravity, air dodge speed and quickest aerial attack speed (aka our frame 7 Nair)? Is there other stuff involved?
I always thought Nair was frame 8 for some reason lol. Bair is frame 6 but you're not really going to be using it to escape things since you'll be facing the opposite direction when you get hit most of the time. Bombs are usually the way to go, although sometimes it will be hard to hit people because you can only throw them in 4 directions. You can also simply Zdrop a bomb out of hitstun.
 

Natmax

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I always thought Nair was frame 8 for some reason lol. Bair is frame 6 but you're not really going to be using it to escape things since you'll be facing the opposite direction when you get hit most of the time. Bombs are usually the way to go, although sometimes it will be hard to hit people because you can only throw them in 4 directions. You can also simply Zdrop a bomb out of hitstun.
Have you found z-dropping bombs to escape combos effective? I played with the idea for a while and was really excited about it, but I was never really able to get it to work outside training mode. I just got combo'd the **** out of whenever I tried
 

DarkDeity15

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Have you found z-dropping bombs to escape combos effective? I played with the idea for a while and was really excited about it, but I was never really able to get it to work outside training mode. I just got combo'd the **** out of whenever I tried
That's probably because you didn't mash the Z button, which you should imo. Just be sure to mash Z after DIing/SDIing (when you stop being hit or get launched). It's worked for me the few times I've done it but idk how effective it really is since I usually don't think of doing it mid-match. I'd figure Fox Is Openly Deceptive Fox Is Openly Deceptive would know more about this, not sure how accurate I am about this.
 
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Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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That's probably because you didn't mash the Z button, which you should imo. Just be sure to mash Z after DIing/SDIing (when you stop being hit or get launched). It's worked for me the few times I've done it but idk how effective it really is since I usually don't think of doing it mid-match. I'd figure Fox Is Openly Deceptive Fox Is Openly Deceptive would know more about this, not sure how accurate I am about this.
If you're good enough with your mashing that's one way to do it.
 

Nd_KakaKhakis

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The more data that comes out on Link's Up-throw and d-throw (thanks to you all) the more important I realize grabbing with Link is.
To be honest (and i think it'll sound dumb when I say it out loud) no matter what a game looks like percentage-wise or stock-wise if I get a grab with Link I feel like I'm in the position to win now. Probably what ZSS mains feel like but you know... they have true combos into death not just iffy setups. I'm starting to feel like Link's matchup spread is heavily dictated by how much Link can get off of grab.

I also have fallen in love with going for d-throw into FH Nair. In some matchups like spacies or cloud getting them off stage is more crucial and there aren't really any other grab follow ups with horizontal knockback.
Also i feel like its the best option to keep the pressure up out of grab when nothing is guaranteed. A lot of situations come up where your rage plus their percent makes it ambiguous if d-throw upsmash/utilt will work and their percent is too low for d-throw up-air to be a 50/50 so missing any of these follow ups would leave you vulnerable.

FH Nair is a safe way to keep the pressure up and even if they airdodge it you can follow them and cover with another nair or bair1, you can follow jumps too and force them to land on top of you.
 

Catana

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they have true combos into death not just iffy setups.
how can you be a regular poster in this thread and not know that we have many true combos out of our dthrow, including kill combos which arent just ''iffy setups''

Also i feel like its the best option to keep the pressure up out of grab when nothing is guaranteed. A lot of situations come up where your rage plus their percent makes it ambiguous if d-throw upsmash/utilt will work and their percent is too low for d-throw up-air to be a 50/50 so missing any of these follow ups would leave you vulnerable.

FH Nair is a safe way to keep the pressure up and even if they airdodge it you can follow them and cover with another nair or bair1, you can follow jumps too and force them to land on top of you.
welp ur hopeless
 

Nd_KakaKhakis

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Thanks Cat! I'm always impressed by your ability to read things carefully and be helpful/supportive
 
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ZSaberLink

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how can you be a regular poster in this thread and not know that we have many true combos out of our dthrow, including kill combos which arent just ''iffy setups''


welp ur hopeless
Because Link mains (even top ones) seem horribly inconsistent with them? That and I don't think we have a good idea how to adjust the DThrow setups when rage is included. Sure move to the higher one, but when? Are they still guaranteed with rage, etc.
 

Nd_KakaKhakis

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I'd be happy to help with that Fox if you want some assistance. Nothing feels worse than going for d-throw upsmash and whiffing horribly cuz you have 130 rage and didn't notice.

I'm also curious how rage affects the effectiveness of frame traps out of jab cancels, like how it would affect your opponent's ability to jump out of jab1-jab2-dtilt or jab1-jab2-upb
 

Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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I'd be happy to help with that Fox if you want some assistance.
Well I described exactly how I'd test it earlier http://smashboards.com/threads/link...-found-in-the-op.379659/page-43#post-21139594
If you can understand what I'm on about, then anyone can test it. And if you want I'll double check one batch of results so that I know you've got the right idea before doing every character.
Testing with Link at 50, 100 and 150% for all characters at each already stated 10% integer in the d-throw follow up post should suffice and should also take any one person far too long.
 
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Nd_KakaKhakis

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Just that post alone helped a ton.

I like the core concept of just finding a constant value (corresponding to your rage) and adding it to their percentage to get their "true combo percentage" is a good way to frame things. There's no need to test rage combos really then if we can find these rage-corresponded percentages. If you find enough data points, like 10 or 20% intervals from 0 to 150% then you could just make a linear function where you plug in your rage amount and then know how to adjust your combo.
 

Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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Just that post alone helped a ton.

I like the core concept of just finding a constant value (corresponding to your rage) and adding it to their percentage to get their "true combo percentage" is a good way to frame things. There's no need to test rage combos really then if we can find these rage-corresponded percentages. If you find enough data points, like 10 or 20% intervals from 0 to 150% then you could just make a linear function where you plug in your rage amount and then know how to adjust your combo.
That's the plan, yes. The end product should look something like:

Link at 50%
X at 0%, treat X as if they are on Y% (in the above chart)
X at 10%, treat X as if they are on Z%
...

Link at 100%
...
etc.

I haven't decided on how I'll display it yet or anything though.
 
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DarkDeity15

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Link has garanteed follow-ups off of Fthrow on the platform in smashville at low very low %s while facing the way the platform is moving. It's definitely something to take note of against fatties and fast fallers. Dsmash out of fthrow is a thing as well and Fthrow to jab is guaranteed on DK from 0% to 11%. Longer if he DIs away, down or in (he would probably expect a Dthrow and end up DIing badly). I even got the combo counter on my side lol. Holy crap, even Utilt works. Cool. Fthrow to jab works on Fox but only until 4%, and jab is pretty much all you can do.

Funny thing is, because Fthrow isn't weight dependent, this is actually more guaranteed than the usual Dthrow follow-ups on characters like Bowser and Dedede. It's still pretty situational but hey. It varies a lot between characters so it needs testing, but when you get the chance, just go for a jab. It's the safest and fastest option, so ye. I'll probably lab the %s this weekend.
 
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JohnKnight416

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Link has garanteed follow-ups off of Fthrow on the platform in smashville at low very low %s while facing the way the platform is moving. It's definitely something to take note of against fatties and fast fallers. Dsmash out of fthrow is a thing as well and Fthrow to jab is guaranteed on DK from 0% to 11%. Longer if he DIs away, down or in (he would probably expect a Dthrow and end up DIing badly). I even got the combo counter on my side lol. Holy crap, even Utilt works. Cool. Fthrow to jab works on Fox but only until 4%, and jab is pretty much all you can do.

Funny thing is, because Fthrow isn't weight dependent, this is actually more guaranteed than the usual Dthrow follow-ups on characters like Bowser and Dedede. It's still pretty situational but hey. It varies a lot between characters so it needs testing, but when you get the chance, just go for a jab. It's the safest and fastest option, so ye. I'll probably lab the %s this weekend.
Does Link have to standing on the platform in Smashvile while performing this Fthrow setup? Also, is there any way for him to perform a Spin Attack as an alternative follow-up option?
 
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JohnKnight416

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Yes, and I doubt it.
Well then if Spin Attack doesn't work on its own, then how about converting into it after a double Jab Setup? Since you stated that a Jab is the most optimal option with this Fthrow setup on the Smashvile platform, it could be possible to pull off Jab1>Jab2>Spin Attack since it's one of the faster setups that Link can perform out of his double Jabs.
Note that this setup isn't a true combo. However, it can throw opponents off guard and it even has the potential to break shields if the opponent likes to use shield a lot.
 
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JohnKnight416

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I've just finished watching this video on Footstooling which has just been recently uploaded and have been wondering about what Footstool combos that Link can do. Can anyone please tell me as to where I can look up the information about Link's Footstool combos?

In the meantime, I mainly want to discuss about a unique type of Footstool that I've just found out about from watching the video called "Phantom Foostooling". This type of Footstool, as well as regular Footstooling in particular, seems pretty underused at the moment as it seems like not a lot of people put Footstooling to intentional use. However, I think that if people start to purposefully use Footstooling more, it can turn out to be pretty effective aerial technique.
I'm thinking that with Phantom Footstooling, Link can extend his aerial options even further, especially offstage, considering that Footstooling can be performed multiple times. I bet that this could change the way how Link performs while he's fighting on stage as well as while he's Edge-Guarding offstage.

One of the ideas that I came up with so far as to what sort of Phantom Footstooling options that Link can perform offstage is that he can pull out a Bomb and throw it down at his opponent and right hitting an opponent, use Nair or Fair to Stage Spike them depending on what type of stage and how you're both below the stage, Bair them to knock them further away from the stage, or even pull off a Dair to either get the Spike off of them when timed successfully or use the Dair's lingering Hitbox as another way to get the Stage Spike off of them.

Note that certain factors such as where you and your opponent are positioned as well as who the opponent's character is may determine the outcome as to how much Footstooling can benefit Link offstage.

If you want to see the video for yourself to learn about all the details, then check out the video link listed right here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=065673B3osg
 

Dumbfire

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lol been in since brawl why don't people know this stuff

anyway footstool uses for link
1. jump off shield after pressure with bombs
2. bomb footstool nair lock
basic by zane
inb4won'thappeninrealmatch scizor doing it on larry lurr
nair lock is very specific I don't really have the data but someone will
3. bombstool to dair is sort of useless btw you might as well do aerial dthrow bomb to fair / uair then and save the effort, it could kill before but the hit was changed so I dunno, but good for styling
 

JohnKnight416

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lol been in since brawl why don't people know this stuff

anyway footstool uses for link
1. jump off shield after pressure with bombs
2. bomb footstool nair lock
basic by zane
inb4won'thappeninrealmatch scizor doing it on larry lurr
nair lock is very specific I don't really have the data but someone will
3. bombstool to dair is sort of useless btw you might as well do aerial dthrow bomb to fair / uair then and save the effort, it could kill before but the hit was changed so I dunno, but good for styling
After reviewing all of these sources, here are my thoughts for each of them.

1. This looks like one effective use of the Phantom Footstool. Seems good for creating distance with that extra height gained from the Footstool. But I wonder how effective it could be if it was used offstage.

2. Ok. This seems like a legit Footstool Combo for Link. The fact that this will mainly work around 35% on most characters means that this won't likely kill the opponent and that it also still needs more experimenting in terms of the discovering the other requirements needed for Link to pull this combo off on every characters. But nonetheless, this is still an effective way for Link to rack up good solid damage on his opponent and that they can't escape this combo.

3. After viewing the source in which you've presented to me, the Bombstool to Dair combo may be debatable as to whether it can still kill or not due to the previous patch changes that have been made, but it's still good for getting some damage in. Though I would agree that it's more optimal to just perform an Aerial Dthrow Bomb to Fair / Uair since they seems like the more safer options. However, I think that Bombstool to Dair can still be effective offstage if you're precise enough. Like you can possibly get the spike off of your opponent with this set up and look stylish while doing so. Though it may be more harder and riskier if the opponent's character is a Fast Faller.

So far, this information does help explain some ways that Link can benefit from Footstooling. They've all proven to be effective on stage, however, I would like to find out what Footstooling options would benefit Link offstage. Anyways, I still believe that there are more ways for Link to benefit from Footstooling, because after all, this is mainly a topic that has been generally overlooked and that a lot of people don't realize the amount of potential that comes from it.
 
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Nd_KakaKhakis

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Bomb to footstool nair has been labbed out thoroughly percentage wise by myself and then updated presentation-wise and patch-wise by DarkDeity15 DarkDeity15

My spreadsheet is here https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bOdLl8fp4weeUTyuX75r324lk0JOCHAD-XsOr1DuNR8/edit#gid=0
DarkDiety's Post can be found here. http://smashboards.com/threads/link...-quotes-can-be-found-in-the-op.379659/page-43

The character-specific mechanics of the combo can be pretty frustrating and unintuitive, but its definitely a valuable setup to have in your pocket.
 

DarkDeity15

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Well then if Spin Attack doesn't work on its own, then how about converting into it after a double Jab Setup? Since you stated that a Jab is the most optimal option with this Fthrow setup on the Smashvile platform, it could be possible to pull off Jab1>Jab2>Spin Attack since it's one of the faster setups that Link can perform out of his double Jabs.
Note that this setup isn't a true combo. However, it can throw opponents off guard and it even has the potential to break shields if the opponent likes to use shield a lot.
Well, actually you could use spin attack but I don't see the point when you can Dsmash. Yeah SA is one frame faster but I mean, yeah. Might be better than Dsmash at slightly later %s though.
 

Nd_KakaKhakis

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Spin Attack is an option I favor a ton but don't forget that it can be unsafe on hit at low percents, and even at mid %'s if you get a suboptimal hitbox from UpB and be unsafe on hit.
 
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So, I've been wondering for a while now why I've never seen someone go for a jab jab after a jab jab. If they hold shield and you aren't within their grab range it should be safe. Also I think jab jab Dtilt might be safe if you space it just right, though it's gonna be really iffy to get anything of it at higher %.
But more then anything, I just find it funny.

Oh, btw. I gave up on using the stage creator to for finding out the range of Links Zair. The buffer thing can't be used to well as each time it nearly 2 frames of real time, almost confirming my theory that each animation has more amounts of frames during slow mode. This means that pressing advance 2 times will have the game advance about 4 frames meaning that the difference is to great and that the end points when using this end up way to inaccurate.
I vote to just ask the modding community instead as we'd get much more precise results.
 

Stryker95

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So, I've been wondering for a while now why I've never seen someone go for a jab jab after a jab jab. If they hold shield and you aren't within their grab range it should be safe. Also I think jab jab Dtilt might be safe if you space it just right, though it's gonna be really iffy to get anything of it at higher %.
Jab 2 is -4/-11 for us on shield, so if spaced right it should be safe. D-Tilt is -2/-9 on shield and has about the same range as jab, so also can be safe.
Most grabs are frame 6ish so if spaced right they have to drop shield so we get 2 frames to act after jab 2 before their grab can connect, and that does not count for them having to dash in to grab, which means a dash grab is needed, which typically adds a few frames. However, one must keep in mind that our spotdodge begins on frame 3, giving them 2 extra frames.
Also one must keep in mind that a tether may catch us as they can do a shield grab rather than a run-up grab.

TL;DR If we are out of their shield grab range, so long as they can't get close enough in 3ish frames (depending on character's grab) jab 2 is safe on shield.
If we are out of their shield grab range, so long as they can't get close enough in 5ish frames (depending on character's grab) D-Tilt is safe on shield. (According to numbers).

Edit: Thinking more about this, it depends on spacing. Our jabs can push the opponent back enough as to where they an drop shield and we cannot reach them, so the second jab jab would whiff. This does not make doing jab jab twice a bad option (I think) but something to keep in mind.
 
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JohnKnight416

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Well, actually you could use spin attack but I don't see the point when you can Dsmash. Yeah SA is one frame faster but I mean, yeah. Might be better than Dsmash at slightly later %s though.
Well tbh, I think that it's really up to personal preference at this point as to how you want this setup to play out. Like, do you want to either get the hit in quickly with the SA but possibly put yourself at risk while doing so due to the Lag off of its long animation, or do you want to play safe and go for a Dsmash which comes out slightly slower but has less Ending lag than the SA. In the end, the option that you choose will most likely have some positive and negative effects overall.
 

ZSaberLink

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Well tbh, I think that it's really up to personal preference at this point as to how you want this setup to play out. Like, do you want to either get the hit in quickly with the SA but possibly put yourself at risk while doing so due to the Lag off of its long animation, or do you want to play safe and go for a Dsmash which comes out slightly slower but has less Ending lag than the SA. In the end, the option that you choose will most likely have some positive and negative effects overall.
Grounded Spin Attack's hitboxes are so janky I'd pretty much saying you have the equivalent of 65 frames of lag instead of the technical 42 it's supposed to have (which is still crazy). DSmash has 41 frames after the first hit, 28 frames after the second hit (FAF 50).
 

Nd_KakaKhakis

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Correct me if I'm wrong (I haven't looked at this frame-wise) but I think Jab Jab into Perfect pivot away Jab Jab is faster than if you were to Jab Jab wait Jab Jab

I think this has something to do with the input buffer window for jabs in this game. If you wanted jab 1 2 then jab 1 there's a long window where the game would interpret your 3rd A press as Jab 3, rather than the jab1 you desired.
But because you input something in between jab2 and your third press of A and because you can press a button out of a perfect pivot super fast I think its probably faster to do jab1 2 perfect pivot jab 1 2 then it is to do jab 1 2, wait jab 1 2.

Also you can input jab,jab PP jab jab just by holding A till jab 2 comes out, letting go then perfect pivoting and holding A again which i think is a bit easier then doing multiple A presses
 

Stryker95

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Correct me if I'm wrong (I haven't looked at this frame-wise) but I think Jab Jab into Perfect pivot away Jab Jab is faster than if you were to Jab Jab wait Jab Jab

I think this has something to do with the input buffer window for jabs in this game. If you wanted jab 1 2 then jab 1 there's a long window where the game would interpret your 3rd A press as Jab 3, rather than the jab1 you desired.
But because you input something in between jab2 and your third press of A and because you can press a button out of a perfect pivot super fast I think its probably faster to do jab1 2 perfect pivot jab 1 2 then it is to do jab 1 2, wait jab 1 2.

Also you can input jab,jab PP jab jab just by holding A till jab 2 comes out, letting go then perfect pivoting and holding A again which i think is a bit easier then doing multiple A presses
While I am sure that is possible, instead of inputting a dash away for a PP, you can hold down and jab jab again, which is faster than waiting or doing a PP.
 

Nd_KakaKhakis

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 20, 2013
Messages
183
Hmm maybe I'm not good at getting my jab cancels out quickly then. I'll try and work on that if its definitely going to be faster.
 

Dumbfire

Sex? Yes, I'm familiar with the theory
Joined
Oct 31, 2009
Messages
2,397
Location
The Netherlands
NNID
AncientSunlight
hey remember that ledgetrump to reverse up b that's useful but rarely done, here it is again by that guy that placed 9th at battle of bc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxEl9asWP14
if they jump after trump it'll hit too even with a late trump so it's not even that difficult to hit
 
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JohnKnight416

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 24, 2016
Messages
297
NNID
Reddemonknight
Grounded Spin Attack's hitboxes are so janky I'd pretty much saying you have the equivalent of 65 frames of lag instead of the technical 42 it's supposed to have (which is still crazy). DSmash has 41 frames after the first hit, 28 frames after the second hit (FAF 50).
Another downside with using the Grounded Spin Attack is that its Hitboxes suddenly disappear if the opponent shields it. Which is a major flaw that I hope to see fixed in the upcoming patch update.

The thread about the confirmed 1.1.6 update is right here
http://smashboards.com/threads/super-smash-bros-for-3ds-wii-u-patch-1-1-6-incoming.436788/
 
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