Meta Link's Metagame Thread (Informative Quotes Can Be Found in the OP)

[DarkDeity15]

Thanks for pointing me to it and thanks for putting in the lab-time, I've been Dying to know the actual percents where this works.

Pretty much all I did though was record the kill %s and whether or not it would actually connect/how frame tight it is. Most characters can DI away to avoid Uair but Dtilt is usually pretty hard to DI anyways since it's a decently fast, single hit move. Unless of course you're using it to punish something your opponent committed to and they know to DI away. You're very welcome though lol.

 

[Nd_KakaKhakis]

I understand that DI is a factor and how deep or shallow you hit with the d-tilt is a factor as well. But its certainly still a setup worth going for, especially if you can cross them up and then get a d-tilt in to trick the DI. If you hit with the very tip of d-tilt and they DI out I wouldn't go for it, but if its just one of the 2 then I'd always go for the setup

And even if they DI away its not going to get viciously punished because the lingering up-air hitbox is tough to challenge and FH Up-air will have no lag on landing.

And ideally I'd like to know exactly when it connects as a combo, but the raw kill percents give you a lot of information.

Without any testing I can safely assume that

Chars like Meta Knight, Fire Emblem Cast, Sheik, Fox, Falco, ZSS, Greninja are the best chars to do this on.

They will have around 10% windows where the setup will be true combos regardless of DI. If I have 100% rage or more, it won't change the fact that its a true combo, it will still connect just at a lower percent. However, performing the combo with rage (but with my opponent at a lower %) might prevent it from being a kill combo on the heavier of these chars.

Floaty chars you can kill early with the setup but rage will be much more of a problem here. Having it will typically be bad when it comes to combo-ing floaties with this setup. It can still be an incredibly useful setup (Killing Peach at 80 aye) but you have to be more confident that the %'s are correct when trying the setup on floaties.


Basically what I'm trying to say is that I can't really figure out these windows and make these extrapolations if I don't know when it starts killing in the first place. So finding this list has got me pretty excited.

 

[Nd_KakaKhakis]

y'all might remember this video from way back.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgSYA8QrviE

Its about sliding pivots. Basically if you jump backwards and then perform a turnaround (a pivot) and hold forward you get a nice little slide animation. The lengths for each character are different but Links is pretty good.

Sliding pivot into buttons or using it to get extra range on dash grab is mad good.

But I've noticed 2 interesting ways Link can abuse Sliding Pivots that are new.

One of them is that if you space your landing right next to your opponent you can sliding pivot and cross through their hurtbox.
If you jump in on your opponent (backwards jumps only) and they hold shield you can actually sliding pivot through them and catch them with a pivot grab (turning around and grabbing would be slightly faster though but same idea).

Another interesting note is that when Link has bomb in hand he can turn him self around in the air (by throwing bomb obviously).
So you can approach your opponent with a forward facing jump, turn yourself around by tossing the bomb and then slidiing pivot-ing through your opponent to get a pivot grab/f-tilt/etc.

Link doesn't get too much in terms of movement tricks but I think this one is really good for him.

 

[Natmax]

So I was messing around with Foxy's reverse ledge downthrow, and I noticed that from about 0-7%, we can true combo downthrow into footstool on fox as he falls off stage behind us (This was confirmed by Stryker95 at 0%). Unfortunately I don't think there is anything we can get off of the footstool, except an edgeguard if we are lucky. I've also noticed that throwing out an aerial with no fast fall will catch foxes ledge grab on the way down if he jumps. Unfortunately he seems to get his jump back when this happens, so I assume it's a 2-frame. Anyway, can anyone think of anything to follow up the footstool with?

 

[Nd_KakaKhakis]

So I was messing around with Foxy's reverse ledge downthrow, and I noticed that from about 0-7%, we can true combo downthrow into footstool on fox as he falls off stage behind us (This was confirmed by Stryker95 at 0%). Unfortunately I don't think there is anything we can get off of the footstool, except an edgeguard if we are lucky. I've also noticed that throwing out an aerial with no fast fall will catch foxes ledge grab on the way down if he jumps. Unfortunately he seems to get his jump back when this happens, so I assume it's a 2-frame. Anyway, can anyone think of anything to follow up the footstool with?

I'm gonna try and test some of this later but I think throwing a boomerang against the stage would create a great situation. The windbox could screw with fox's recovery and put him in a situation where he has to eat a dair spike/stage spike.
And if the fox airdodged or wall jumped or figured out a way to avoid the boomerang and get to ledge, you're now facing stage so you can tether trump fox into a guaranteed spike (or a less risky bair or reverse up b or whatever).

Also simply shooting a turnaround arrow at the ledge would force fox into a up-b situation and you still have a jump so you could probably fair stage spike him or just dair him during up-b startup

 

[JayE]

I'm sure this isn't new, but I recently did a turnaround forward tilt, and somehow got the reverse hitbox. I didn't know Link had a hitbox behind him on forward tilt. Well Link does start with the animation behind him, but I still didn't think I could hit reverse like that. its kinda like Fox's reverse forward tilt, or Marth's reverse fair. Has anyone else been able to do this? Its really situational and forward tilt doesn't lead into anything else and is more a kill move. It might just be useless, but its cool and flashy, lol.

 

[Stryker95]

I'm sure this isn't new, but I recently did a turnaround forward tilt, and somehow got the reverse hitbox. I didn't know Link had a hitbox behind him on forward tilt. Well Link does start with the animation behind him, but I still didn't think I could hit reverse like that. its kinda like Fox's reverse forward tilt, or Marth's reverse fair. Has anyone else been able to do this? Its really situational and forward tilt doesn't lead into anything else and is more a kill move. It might just be useless, but its cool and flashy, lol.

Well yeah, there is a hitbox on his person, like the hilt area, but not on the blade when it is behind him.

 

[Natmax]

JayE When standing next to someone you can cover roll in with ftilt while covering drop shield/grab or whatever with reverse ftilt. It's a useful setup.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I'm sure this isn't new, but I recently did a turnaround forward tilt, and somehow got the reverse hitbox. I didn't know Link had a hitbox behind him on forward tilt. Well Link does start with the animation behind him, but I still didn't think I could hit reverse like that. its kinda like Fox's reverse forward tilt, or Marth's reverse fair. Has anyone else been able to do this? Its really situational and forward tilt doesn't lead into anything else and is more a kill move. It might just be useless, but its cool and flashy, lol.

This only happened because Roy dashed into you. You didn't even hit with the initial hitbox; it was only when the sword was on the ground that it actually connected, so something like frame 17.

 

[JayE]

Ohh I didn't even consider that Roy started to dash, it did look like he was. This could cover some options but I feel like its too situational and moves like down smash or spin attack or better for covering something like rolling
I don't know, all I know is that it looks cool,

 

[ripa9]

https://youtu.be/CEX0n4BJVL8?t=25m59s

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

https://youtu.be/CEX0n4BJVL8?t=25m59s

It doesn't surprise me in the slightest that someone who thinks Link is low tier doesn't know even the most basic things about Link. Of course it's guaranteed.

 

[Rizen]

This is interesting
http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/ItemData
Link has 14 frames of lag on his forward item toss, 15 on his dash toss but only 12 on his backward item toss which also turns him. In other words, if you face away from the opponent and throw the bomb at them you have 2 or 3 more advantage frames for followups. This could increase the combo windows for things like SH Fair significantly.

 

[JohnKnight416]

I've just watched this video about an SSB4 tech called 'Step Dashing', featuring a list of the Top 10 characters that were considered to have the best Step-Dash.
And surprisingly, I saw out that Link was one of those Top 10 characters on the list. Now frankly, this list was just a rough draft and that not all of the characters have been tested, but it's worth noting that Link is considered to have one best Step-Dashes in the game.

Link to the video is right here

 

[Nd_KakaKhakis]

So I'm not sure how common info this is but I've figured out a situational way to z-drop bombs at full hop height without having Zair come out (just like Brawl I think? idk didn't really play it)

If you catch or pickup a bomb with a rising aerial button (i do not believe that this works with just z-catch) now you can z-drop the bomb from any height with zair coming out. Once you Jump though, pressing the grab button will start making Zair come out again.

The best application of this is catching a bomb with FH bair. Once you catch a bomb with full hop bair you can z-drop the bomb and do cool stuff without having to worry about pesky Zair Lag!

This also happens with Full Hop Nair and Fair but with those buttons you're pretty much gonna already be down by the ground by the time you land and can z-drop so it doesn't really look that different.

Fun.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Earlier I was talking about this idea of getting a dash grab so that you end up right on the edge of the stage allowing you to do a D-throw and then run off stage and immediately DJ and follow-up with a bunch of cool options thanks to the time you save from bypassing the jumpsquat frames. The only trouble with this was that the setup is unrealistic. It's too difficult to get that grab and end up sliding all the way to the edge.

So here's the same kind of idea only with a better setup.
You just want to get a grab so that you're all the way up against the side of the stage, and you can do that by e.g. rolling toward the edge against an opponent's ledge option and then grabbing them, or dashing past them and doing a pivot grab right up against the edge. This will of course leave you with your back right up against the side of the stage.
While it does have the advantage of being an easier setup, there are some distinct disadvantages.

Because you have your back up against the edge it will require one extra frame to turn around and then dash off the side of the stage, but the most critical disadvantage is obviously the fact that the opponent will not be sent off-stage by the d-throw unless they DI the D-throw behind you, and so this obviously limits the effectiveness of a DJ Dair follow-up in that the ability to spike them and get an early stock relies on the opponent DIing the D-throw off-stage, and the DJ Fair is also weakened by the fact that it can be avoided entirely by DIng the D-throw toward the centre of the stage.

With that said, the realistic setup makes this worth trying imo.
I've labbed out the percents against Fox for now to give you an idea.

Note that with the DJ Dair percents, there is an extra frame to work with because you are required to DJ forwards anyway. It's a quirk to do with a certain edge mechanic, but basically so long as you are holding forwards, you can DJ one frame sooner, and so this obviously doesn't apply to the DJ Fair percents as you'll want to be DJing backwards. That's why there's a difference in their starting percents even though they come out on the same frame. I don't believe I bothered to take advantage of this earlier, but it makes sense to do so now because you are committed to following a specific DI anyway.

Labbing Aerial Up-B as a follow-up in these circumstances was tougher for a few reasons.
For starters are we talking about instant aerial Up-B or DJ aerial Up-B (the DJ can help gain height and it can be used to re-position Link before using the Up-B e.g. by jumping back towards stage), do we reverse it or leave it so Link stays facing off-stage, and are we connecting with the front hit or back hit first depending on DI?
Not only that, but it's no longer just a matter of 'does it hit' like the previous two options because you have to consider whether or not the opponent will actually stay in the Up-B until the final hit. So while dash off-stage to instant reverse aerial Up-B will hit Fox from as little as 10%, it will only connect all hits from around 40%. Assume that percents given can connect all hits.

[Keep in mind that this is frame perfect and that you are fallible. Tested at 5% intervals in training mode.]


Against Fox

DJ Dair:
55-80% [Fox needs to DI the d-throw off-stage for this to be worth it.]

DJ Fair:
65-105% [but only so long as Fox doesn't DI the d-throw away to centre stage. If you DJ back it will cover both no DI and DI off-stage. If Fox doesn't DI, the Fair will only start to hit Fox off-stage in the direction of the Fair upwards from 80%.]

Instant Reverse Up-B (Link facing toward centre stage):
If Fox DI's the D-throw away toward centre stage it will work from 40-75%.
With no DI it will work from 40-115%.
If Fox DI's the D-throw behind off-stage it will work from 40-100%.

DJ Reverse Up-B:
DI away, can go up to 125%.
No DI, can go up to 120%.
DI behind, can go up to 110%.

Instant Up-B (Link facing off-stage):
DI away, it'll never work.
No DI, 60-110%.
DI behind, 40-95%.

DJ Up-B:
DI away, can work from 90-110%.
No DI, can go up to 130%.
DI behind, can work up to 115%.

 

[Natmax]

Sorry if this was already posted ages ago (I looked for it and didn't see it), but apparently we can do lagless getup?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6esNMIfCj4&t=0s
Or maybe it's something else, either way it happened in a friendly match I was playing so I recorded it to check. Sorry about the awful quality.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Yeah it's a known phenomenon. Just another one of those frame-perfect as well as input-specific things that will never have any real impact on the meta due to consistency issues.
My understanding of it is that it's a matter of getting a specific frame of a character's DJ that moves their ECB downwards to line up with them being above the stage just right such that (when the stars align) it moves them into the ground and makes them land.

 

[Nd_KakaKhakis]

Stryker posted (from Scizor) percents where Late Nair (the one that does 6%) will cause tumble. This info is useful because you can convert with arrow locks or you can go for a dash attack that potentially seals the stock. The trick to making this a tight (hard to tech situation) is to hit them with nair RIGHT at the percents where it starts causing tumble. It depends on their floatiness but i'd say within a 10% window of the percents given indicates a solid time to go for a dash attack follow-up. The applicability of when you can go for arrow lock has more variables because hitting them with the arrow isn't always easy.

All the data is there on a post on page 48.

I was looking into how rage factored in here though. You can find all the percents provided earlier but now I've given you the first percent nair will start causing tumble with Full (150%+) rage. I just finished the 100% rage as well.

These values were derived using http://rubendal.github.io/Sm4sh-Calculator/tsvgen.html and checked by myself using handicap in VS mode (I can't speak to the full accuracy of the non-rage numbers but I didn't find any errors when I double checked a couple characters.)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oh11gqs0fFU8n3YMxzMZfchOG1MDrpjb_nsb8rL65Lg/edit?usp=sharing

Take a look, hope you guys find this useful!

 

[Superaaron14]

A link footstool setup

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_70C89Q0uU

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

A link footstool setup

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_70C89Q0uU

I briefly doubled checked everything shown and I can confirm that it all works.
On Bowser you'll be able to get a footstool out of this Dair if he starts somewhere between 15 and 30% (5% intervals), and even if you start at 30% the Nair will still lock.
What the video doesn't tell you is that it is actually easier to get the footstool out of a FH DJ Dair on a smaller character because the Dair will hit later letting you footstool out of the pogo sooner, and the video did it to one of the tallest characters. Obviously Bowser was chosen for his weight so that the Dair wouldn't send him too far away, but this can work on Jiggs too (between 0 and 5%) just as an extreme example. The best candidate would be someone small and heavy.
Anyway, if you can get even more time in the air e.g. by doing a ledge hop DJ Dair or by using platforms or by getting hit into the air first, you'll be further optimising your ability to get the footstool out in time.

 

[Superaaron14]

I briefly doubled checked everything shown and I can confirm that it all works.
On Bowser you'll be able to get a footstool out of this Dair if he starts somewhere between 15 and 30% (5% intervals), and even if you start at 30% the Nair will still lock.
What the video doesn't tell you is that it is actually easier to get the footstool out of a FH DJ Dair on a smaller character because the Dair will hit later letting you footstool out of the pogo sooner, and the video did it to one of the tallest characters. Obviously Bowser was chosen for his weight so that the Dair wouldn't send him too far away, but this can work on Jiggs too (between 0 and 5%) just as an extreme example. The best candidate would be someone small and heavy.
Anyway, if you can get even more time in the air e.g. by doing a ledge hop DJ Dair or by using platforms or by getting hit into the air first, you'll be further optimising your ability to get the footstool out in time.

i tested this on other characters before (like puff) and i just thought for demonstrative purposes i would just use bowser cause he's heavy and not as much air speed

 

[Nd_KakaKhakis]

EDIT: There may have been a calculator error that affected the results of this post. I don't have much time to investigate in the short term but i will eventually check my work to make sure that these %'s are correct

Fox asked me this morning "how many more frames of extra hitstun does Bair 1 induce when Link is at full rage?"

And its a great question so I thought i'd share the results here.
Some notes:
Bair1 has 3 hitboxes, they all do the same amount of knockback and thus the same amount of hitstun. The one at the tip of the boot though hits at a different angle, probably a design decision to ensure the move connects at the furthest range.

So no matter who your opponent is and how much damage they have, bair1 does 16 frames of hitstun when you have no rage.

But here's how rage factors in.

At 61% rage the amount of hitstun frames go from 16 -17
At 105% rage the amount of hitstun frames go to 18
And at 149% rage the amount of hitstun frames go to 19

So keep these numbers in mind. These 3 three milestones of your rage are literally the only things that determine how many frames you have to follow up off of a bair1 confirm.

~Khakis

 

[Rizen]

Fox asked me this morning "how many more frames of extra hitstun does Bair 1 induce when Link is at full rage?"

And its a great question so I thought i'd share the results here.
Some notes:
Bair1 has 3 hitboxes, they all do the same amount of knockback and thus the same amount of hitstun. The one at the tip of the boot though hits at a different angle, probably a design decision to ensure the move connects at the furthest range.

So no matter who your opponent is and how much damage they have, bair1 does 16 frames of hitstun when you have no rage.

But here's how rage factors in.

At 61% rage the amount of hitstun frames go from 16 -17
At 105% rage the amount of hitstun frames go to 18
And at 149% rage the amount of hitstun frames go to 19

So keep these numbers in mind. These 3 three milestones of your rage are literally the only things that determine how many frames you have to follow up off of a bair1 confirm.

~Khakis

Great work

Too bad Link's so slow. Bair has 10 frames of landing lag so we have 6-9 frames guaranteed. If we Bair 1 a SHing opponent we could land>Usmash since airdodges are slower and will make them land in lag.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Back hit of U-tilt to FH Uair combo percents:

It's not a true combo because it can be avoided by DIing away, but otherwise they will be unable to avoid the Uair so it's still good to know.

I'm only interested in the strong initial hitbox of Uair connecting. In many instances you will be able to force an airdodge outside the percent range given and then still hit with the lingering Uair hitbox, and in that sense it will still be unavoidable, but I won't be bothering with that for now. I might in the future though.

I'll try to stay realistic here which will mean taking into account a few variables which are as follows:
There are two main hitbox frames that are going to be the 'back hit' of U-tilt depending on how close the opponent is and how tall they are, and these are frames 11 and 12 of U-tilt. Frame 12 is obviously optimal for comboing if you actually hit it because you'll be able to move one frame earlier, but if the character is tall enough that frame 11 is relevant, I'll mention both.
There are also two possible directions that the opponent can be sent by U-tilt depending on which hitboxes of the U-tilt hit and which miss (regardless of what frame you hit on). Basically all you need to know is that taller characters will always get hit the right way on both frame 11 and 12, small characters will not be hit by frame 11 (assuming they're not on top of Link) and will always be hit the right way by frame 12, but the medium height characters will either always get hit the wrong way by frame 11 or will get hit the wrong way by frame 11 if they are too far away. If they get hit the wrong way they will be hit up and away from Link as if they had DI'd the U-tilt away properly. What we want is for them to be hit up and towards Link so that they end up closer to him so that our FH Uair (jumping backwards, all buffered) will be able to connect. If there is any trouble in this regard for a specific character I'll mention it.
If the character gets hit the wrong way or the opponent DI's away, you'll have to dash back to follow them and you won't have anything guaranteed other than forcing an airdodge and then hitting them after that in some instances.

The following was tested at 5% intervals in training mode so no rage etc. What this means is that if I say e.g. 45% to 55%, it worked on these percents and it didn't work on 40% and 60%, i.e. maybe the true range is in fact 41% to 59%, or maybe it really is just 45% to 55%. Rage is always a factor you should take into account, but it will not stop these combos from working; it will merely shift the general percent range given below so that it happens earlier.


Bayonetta:
Bat Within says no.

Bowser:
Frame 11: 50% to 60%
Frame 12: 45% to 60%

Bowser Jr.:
Frame 11: BJ's height is such that frame 11 will always hit the wrong way.
Frame 12: 45% to 60%

Captain Falcon:
Frame 11 and 12: 45% to 65%

Charizard:
Frame 11: Hits the wrong way.
Frame 12: 45% to 60%, but because Charizard sticks his head out it's hard to avoid frame 11, so this is not really relevant.

Cloud:
(non-limit)
Frame 11: 45% to 55%
Frame 12: 40% to 55%
(limit)
Frame 11: 45% to 60%
Frame 12: 40% to 60%

Corrin:
Frame 11: 45% to 60%
Frame 12: 40% to 60%

Dark Pit:
Frame 11: Not enough hitstun.
Frame 12: 45% to 55%

Diddy:
Frame 11: Hits the wrong way.
Frame 12: 45% to 55%

Donkey Kong:
Frame 11: 45% to 65%
Frame 12: 45% to 70%, but not really relevant.

Doctor Mario:
Frame 11: Hits the wrong way.
Frame 12: 40% to 55%

Duck Hunt:
Frame 11: Hits the wrong way.
Frame 12: 40% to 55%

Falco:
Frame 11: Not enough hitstun.
Frame 12: 40% to 50%

Fox:
Frame 11: Hits the wrong way.
Frame 12: 40% to 50%

Ganon:
Frame 11: 45% to 60%
Frame 12: Not relevant.

Greninja:
45% to 55%

Ike:
Frame 11 and 12: 45% to 60%

Jigglypuff:
30% to 40%

King Dedede:
Frame 11 and 12: 45% to 70%

Kirby:
35% to 45%

Link:
Frame 11 and 12: 45% to 60%

Little Mac:
Frame 11: Hits the wrong way.
Frame 12: 40% to 55%

Lucario:
Frame 11: Hits the wrong way.
Frame 12: 45% to 55%

Lucas:
40% to 55%

Lucina:
Frame 11 and 12: 40% to 55%

Luigi:
Frame 11: Hits the wrong way.
Frame 12: 40% to 50%

Mario:
Frame 11: Hits the wrong way.
Frame 12: 40% to 55%

Marth:
Frame 11 and 12: 40% to 55%

Mega Man:
Frame 11: Hits the wrong way.
Frame 12: 40% to 60%

Meta Knight:
40% to 50%

Mewtwo:
Frame 11: Not enough hitstun.
Frame 12: 40% to 50%

Mii Fighter:
Frame 11: Hits the wrong way.
Frame 12: 40% to 60%

Mii Gunner
Frame 11: Hits the wrong way.
Frame 12: 40% to 55%

Mii Sword
Frame 11: Hits the wrong way.
Frame 12: 40% to 55%

Mr Game and Watch:
40% to 45%

Ness:
40% to 55%

Olimar:
35% to 45%

Pac-Man:
Frame 11: Hits the wrong way.
Frame 12: 40% to 50%

Palutena:
Frame 11 and 12: 40% to 50%

Peach:
Frame 11 and 12: 40% to 45%

Pikachu:
40% to 50%

Pit:
Frame 11: Not enough hitstun.
Frame 12: 45% to 55%

R.O.B.:
Frame 11: 45% to 60%
Frame 12: 45% to 65%

Robin:
Frame 11: 45% to 55%
Frame 12: 40% to 55%

Rosalina:
(assuming Luma doesn't interfere)
Frame 11: 40%
Frame 12: 35% to 40%

Roy:
Frame 11: 45% to 60%
Frame 12: 40% to 60%

Ryu:
Frame 11: 50% to 55%
Frame 12: 50% to 60%

Samus:
Frame 11: 45% to 55%
Frame 12: 45% to 60%

Sheik:
Frame 11: Not enough hitstun.
Frame 12: 40% to 50%

Shulk:
(vanilla)
Frame 11: 45% to 60%
Frame 12: 40% to 60%
(jump)
Frame 11 and 12: 40% to 65%
(speed)
Frame 11: 45% to 60%
Frame 12: 40% to 60%
(shield)
Frame 11: Not enough hitstun.
Frame 12: 80% to 95%
(buster)
Frame 11: 45% to 55%
Frame 12: 40% to 60%
(smash)
Frame 11: 40% to 50%
Frame 12: 35% to 50%

Sonic:
Frame 11: Hits the wrong way.
Frame 12: 45% to 50%

Toon Link:
Frame 11: Hits the wrong way.
Frame 12: 45% to 50%

Villager:
Frame 11: Hits the wrong way.
Frame 12: 40% to 50%

Wario:
Frame 11: Hits the wrong way.
Frame 12: 45% to 60%

Wii Fit Trainer:
Frame 11: Not enough hitstun.
Frame 12: 45% to 50%

Yoshi:
Frame 11: Hits the wrong way.
Frame 12: 45% to 55%

Zelda:
Frame 11 and 12: 40% to 50%

Zero Suit Samus:
Frame 11: Not enough hitstun.
Frame 12: 40% to 50%

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

What if I told you that Link can get a kill confirm out of a Jab against Sheik?
Just a little something I've been looking into. Rage Jab 2 into grounded Up-B.

At the given percents below, you can hit Sheik with Jab 1, use a (slightly delayed) Jab 2, and then buffer an Up-B. If you timed the Jab 2 correctly, Sheik will not be able to avoid the Jab 2, she will then experience 18 to 19 frames of hitstun in the air (percent dependent), be unable to DJ before landing, will land with 4 frames of landing lag, and consequently will be unable to shield the Up-B.

Granted, in order to do this, you will typically have a 2 frame window to input the Jab 2 and the timing will vary depending on the percent, but then, what if you miss the timing? Well, if you use Jab 2 a frame or two too early, Sheik will be able to DJ before landing, sure, but because it takes her 4 to 5 frames to DJ out of the way of our Up-B, the Up-B will still connect unless Sheik does a frame perfect DJ airdodge (which of course cannot be buffered).

The rough percents this starts to work on (because Link's Jab 2 starts to induce 18 hitstun frames) are as follows.

Link 150%, Sheik 60%.
Link 125%, Sheik 90%.
Link 100%, Sheik 130%.
Link 80%, Sheik 150%.


Note that this is a bit character specific and we got lucky with it working on Sheik the way that it does. I've already looked into some other characters and I was unimpressed by the results. If the character is too light then we can't get Jab 2 to connect; falls too fast then we can't get enough airborne frames to match the available hitstun frames; too heavy and we can't get enough hitstun frames, etc. I'll probably come back to this later though and I'll let you know if I find any other characters that it works on.

 

[Rizen]

Great work Foxy! Those combos, especially the jab 2>upB could be useful in Link's hard MUs vs sheik and probably Fox too.

Do bombs and boomerang hitstun scale with rage?
Boomerang's early hit does 7 damage, 70 degree angle on frames 27-35 FAF 46 so that's only 11-19 frames of lag. I wonder if Link could true combo from the early hit if we spaced it out from Link a little.
http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Link

This is interesting
http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/ItemData
Link has 14 frames of lag on his forward item toss, 15 on his dash toss but only 12 on his backward item toss which also turns him. In other words, if you face away from the opponent and throw the bomb at them you have 2 or 3 more advantage frames for followups. This could increase the combo windows for things like SH Fair significantly.

I've been thinking about this. OoS bomb toss has the same frame data as normal tosses right? If we're not going to bombslide and use a bomb to punish an attack or landing we can step away>shield>OoS backward bomb toss>SH Fair like we would pivot grab/Ftilt. The walk/run away>shield>OoS backward toss is an easy and safe setup to get the extra 2 frames of advantage.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Great work Foxy! Those combos, especially the jab 2>upB could be useful in Link's hard MUs vs sheik and probably Fox too.

Fox was one of the characters I tried it against and the results didn't impress me. He falls too fast. Even if you do an immediate Jab 2 (by simply holding A) then buffer the Up-B, the execution is simple enough, but it requires both Fox and Link to be at 150% otherwise Fox will be able to shield the Up-B. So not really no.

Do bombs and boomerang hitstun scale with rage?

Bombs are unaffected by rage, but boomerang is.

I wonder if Link could true combo from the early hit if we spaced it out from Link a little.

I thought this was a thing that people have been doing since release. Unless I'm misunderstanding you.

I've been thinking about this. OoS bomb toss has the same frame data as normal tosses right? If we're not going to bombslide and use a bomb to punish an attack or landing we can step away>shield>OoS backward bomb toss>SH Fair like we would pivot grab/Ftilt. The walk/run away>shield>OoS backward toss is an easy and safe setup to get the extra 2 frames of advantage.

Dashing and throwing the bomb OoS is the poor man's JC throw, unless of course you actually intend to shield something. You can't shield during the initial frames of a dash but you can jump, so you're essentially just restricting yourself. Get a trigger button assigned to jump.

 

[Rizen]

Bombs are unaffected by rage, but boomerang is.
I thought this was a thing that people have been doing since release. Unless I'm misunderstanding you.

Dashing and throwing the bomb OoS is the poor man's JC throw, unless of course you actually intend to shield something. You can't shield during the initial frames of a dash but you can jump, so you're essentially just restricting yourself. Get a trigger button assigned to jump.

The boomerang part was more about how the early hit lasts a long time so with the right spacing we can cut off 8 frames of lag with the same effect. I haven't seen that specifically mentioned. It's nice to know rage helps the hitstun.

Okay that's a good idea to JC instead. I do think backwards bomb tosses should become a common strategy that we mention more. Saving 2 frames is important for combo consistency.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Updated the post above. We don't have to be frame perfect with the Jab 2. The available frame window will get smaller as the percents get higher, but typically you're looking at a 2 frame window to input the Jab 2, with as much as a 4 frame window very early on when you don't need to delay the Jab 2 at all in some instances (but in most scenarios you will have to delay it).

 

[Rizen]

I've been looking at frame data/damage and figured out what the safest feasible way to break a shield is. Shields have 40 hp (right?) and lose a little each frame. This isn't guaranteed but if you have the opponent cornered and are feeling ballsy do this:

SH Fair 1 (11%) try to space it at the tip so you can't be shield grabbed, Fair 2 (13%)>land and jab 1 then 2 (for 5% total)>upB (for 14% close or 11.2% at the tip), this can be replaced by Dsmash for more damage but it starts 1 frame later and is harder to buffer. This is relatively safe if the opponent can't shield grab and doesn't have good OoS options because you can stop after jab 2 and react if they escape and the ending upB/Dsmash can catch rolls behind Link.

edit, Stryker95 informed me shields have 50 hp but this will work due to shield depletion.

According to the Smash Wiki and Kurogane shields have 50 hp, not 40. That being said, all attacks have a 1.19 multiplier. Adding this all up, finishing with close Up-B and weakest DSmash hitbox deals 51.17 damage. Finishing with the tip of Up-B (11.2%) deals 47.838. Now for shield depletion. Shield depletes at 0.13 per frame up. So with 9 frames between Fair 1 and FAir 2, the 8 frames of landing lag, 7 frames of Jab 1 start up, 6 frames of Jab 2 start up (3 frames between the end of Jab 1 and Jab 2, but 3 frames of shield stun) 8 IASA frames to end Jab 2 and then 8 frames for Up-B start up means 46 frames. (I already subtracted shield stun frames as shield does not deplete during shield stun.) That is 5.98 hp damage, enough to break shield. Fun stuff and good find.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Bair 1 to Best Possible Follow-ups:

This is something I've been procrastinating on forever. The idea is that different characters have different amounts of hitstun and air-time when hit by Bair 1, so naturally there will be different 'best' options you can do when you hit someone with a Bair 1 and then immediately land. Yes, I'm aware that Bair 1 has set-knockback, but this just means that its knockback is not affected by the opponent's percent; it does not mean it isn't affected by the opponent's character attributes such as weight, fall speed and gravity.

Below I'll be listing a bunch of numbers under each character.
The first will be total hitstun frames that Bair 1 induces assuming that the opponent doesn't land part-way through.
Then I'll state the amount of airborne frames the opponent experiences assuming they don't DI or SDI the Bair, and also assuming they don't DJ before they land if they can.
If they have the same or less airborne frames compared to the total amount of hitstun frames, this means they have no choice but to land.
Then I'll mention their total landing lag frames regardless of whether or not they have a forced landing.
At this point I'll be able to tell you how many frames we have to work with to get a follow up after Bair 1 against all of the opponent's best available options. I will assume that you have hit with Bair 1 with no rage on your final airborne frame and I will take into account the ten frames of landing lag you will have to endure immediately after.

Potential follow-ups include:
B-reversed Grounded Up-B: 8 Frames
Turn around Jab: 8 Frames.
Turn around U-tilt: 9 Frames.
Turn around D-smash: 10 Frames
Turn around U-smash: 11 Frames
Back hit of U-tilt: 11 to 12 Frames
Turn around D-tilt: 12 Frames
Turn around Grab: 13 Frames (but unaffected by shield)

So for example, if you see "Total Frames to Work With: 10 against shield", this means that technically a turn around D-smash will connect if the opponent tries to shield and you perform everything frame perfectly.
Keep in mind however that you're not perfect, so in all likelihood you will not perform the Bair 1 perfectly by connecting it on your last airborne frame, and if the follow-up requires you to turn around first, you may not only turn around for 1 frame. However your opponent is not perfect either, and the DJ Airdodges listed below are assuming frame perfection.

Please Note:
The following does not account for the extra hitstun frames and increased air-time that results from being hit by a Bair 1 if Link has rage. To make this clear, you can think of the following as the worst case scenarios played out frame perfectly. You can realistically expect to gain a few extra frames to work with if you have rage. At some point, if it is possible, I intend to do the same below only I will account for Link having rage which will indicate just how much more time we have to get better follow-ups.



Link with No Rage against:

Bayonetta:
Hitstun Frames: 18
Airborne Frames: 16
Landing Frames: 4
Total Frames to Work With: 10 against shield, 10 against spotdodge Bat Within, 14 against spotdodge intangibility.

Bowser:
Hitstun Frames: 16
Airborne Frames: 15
Landing Frames: 6
Total Frames to Work With: 11 against shield, 14 against spotdodge.

Bowser Jr.:
Hitstun Frames: 17
Airborne Frames: 17
Landing Frames: 4
Total Frames to Work With: 11 against shield, 13 against spotdodge.

Captain Falcon:
Hitstun Frames: 17
Airborne Frames: 14
Landing Frames: 4
Total Frames to Work With: 8 against shield, 10 against spotdodge.

Charizard:
Hitstun Frames: 17
Airborne Frames: 15
Landing Frames: 5
Total Frames to Work With: 10 against shield, 12 against spotdodge

Cloud:
(non-limit)
Hitstun Frames: 17
Airborne Frames: 17
Landing Frames: 4
Total Frames to Work With: 11 against shield, 13 against spotdodge.
(limit)
Hitstun Frames: 17
Airborne Frames: 16
Landing Frames: 4
Total Frames to Work With: 10 against shield, 12 against spotdodge.

Corrin:
Hitstun Frames: 18
Airborne Frames: 18
Landing Frames: 4
Total Frames to Work With: 12 against shield, 14 against spotdodge.

Dark Pit:
Hitstun Frames: 18
Airborne Frames: 20
Landing Frames: 5
Total Frames to Work With: 10 against DJ airdodge, 15 against shield.

Diddy:
Hitstun Frames: 18
Airborne Frames: 17
Landing Frames: 4
Total Frames to Work With: 11 against shield, 12 against spotdodge.

Donkey Kong:
Hitstun Frames: 16
Airborne Frames: 18
Landing Frames: 5
Total Frames to Work With: 10 against DJ airdodge, 13 against shield.

Doctor Mario:
Hitstun Frames: 18
Airborne Frames: 19
Landing Frames: 4
Total Frames to Work With: 11 against DJ airdodge, 13 against shield.

Duck Hunt:
Hitstun Frames: 18
Airborne Frames: 21
Landing Frames: 4
Total Frames to Work With: 10 against DJ airdodge, 15 against shield.

Falco:
Hitstun Frames: 19
Airborne Frames: 15
Landing Frames: 5
Total Frames to Work With: 10 against shield, 11 against spotdodge.

Fox:
Hitstun Frames: 19
Airborne Frames: 11
Landing Frames: 9
Total Frames to Work With: 10 against shield, 11 against spotdodge.

Ganon:
Hitstun Frames: 17
Airborne Frames: 15
Landing Frames: 5
Total Frames to Work With: 10 against shield, 13 against spotdodge.

Greninja:
Hitstun Frames: 18
Airborne Frames: 11
Landing Frames: 8
Total Frames to Work With: 9 against shield, 10 against spotdodge.

Ike:
Hitstun Frames: 17
Airborne Frames: 17
Landing Frames: 4
Total Frames to Work With: 11 against shield, 13 against spotdodge.

Jigglypuff:
Hitstun Frames: 20
Airborne Frames: 32
Landing Frames: 2
Total Frames to Work With: 14 against DJ airdodge.

King Dedede:
Hitstun Frames: 16
Airborne Frames: 17
Landing Frames: 6
Total Frames to Work With: 10 against DJ airdodge, 13 against shield.

Kirby:
Hitstun Frames: 19
Airborne Frames: 25
Landing Frames: 4
Total Frames to Work With: 12 against DJ airdodge.

Link:
Hitstun Frames: 17
Airborne Frames: 17
Landing Frames: 5
Total Frames to Work With: 12 against shield, 14 against spotdodge.

Little Mac:
Hitstun Frames: 19
Airborne Frames: 20
Landing Frames: 4
Total Frames to Work With: 11 against DJ airdodge, 14 against shield.

Lucario:
Hitstun Frames: 18
Airborne Frames: 19
Landing Frames: 4
Total Frames to Work With: 10 against DJ airdodge, 13 against shield.

Lucas:
Hitstun Frames: 18
Airborne Frames: 19
Landing Frames: 5
Total Frames to Work With: 11 against DJ airdodge, 14 against shield.

Lucina:
Hitstun Frames: 18
Airborne Frames: 21
Landing Frames: 4
Total Frames to Work With: 8 against Dolphin Slash, 11 against DJ airdodge.

Luigi:
Hitstun Frames: 18
Airborne Frames: 22
Landing Frames: 4
Total Frames to Work With: 11 against DJ airdodge, 16 against shield.

Mario:
Hitstun Frames: 18
Airborne Frames: 19
Landing Frames: 4
Total Frames to Work With: 10 against Up-B, 11 against DJ airdodge, 13 against shield.

Marth:
Hitstun Frames: 18
Airborne Frames: 21
Landing Frames: 4
Total Frames to Work With: 8 against Dolphin Slash, 11 against DJ airdodge.

Mega Man:
Hitstun Frames: 17
Airborne Frames: 16
Landing Frames: 4
Total Frames to Work With: 10 against shield, 12 against spotdodge.

Meta Knight:
Hitstun Frames: 19
Airborne Frames: 17
Landing Frames: 4
Total Frames to Work With: 11 against shield, 12 against spotdodge.

Mewtwo:
Hitstun Frames: 18
Airborne Frames: 22
Landing Frames: 5
Total Frames to Work With: 10 against DJ airdodge.

Mii Fighter:
Hitstun Frames: 17
Airborne Frames: 16
Landing Frames: 4
Total Frames to Work With: 10 against shield, 11 against spotdodge.

Mii Gunner
Hitstun Frames: 17
Airborne Frames: 18
Landing Frames: 4
Total Frames to Work With: 10 against DJ airdodge, 12 against shield.

Mii Sword
Hitstun Frames: 17
Airborne Frames: 17
Landing Frames: 5
Total Frames to Work With: 12 against shield, 14 against spotdodge.

Mr Game and Watch:
Hitstun Frames: 19
Airborne Frames: 23
Landing Frames: 4
Total Frames to Work With: 11 against DJ airdodge.

Ness:
Hitstun Frames: 18
Airborne Frames: 21
Landing Frames: 4
Total Frames to Work With: 11 against DJ airdodge, 15 against shield.

Olimar:
Hitstun Frames: 19
Airborne Frames: 24
Landing Frames: 4
Total Frames to Work With: 12 against DJ airdodge.

Pac-Man:
Hitstun Frames: 18
Airborne Frames: 22
Landing Frames: 4
Total Frames to Work With: 11 against DJ airdodge.

Palutena:
Hitstun Frames: 18
Airborne Frames: 18
Landing Frames: 4
Total Frames to Work With: 12 against shield, 14 against spotdodge.

Peach:
Hitstun Frames: 18
Airborne Frames: 24
Landing Frames: 4
Total Frames to Work With: 11 against DJ airdodge.

Pikachu:
Hitstun Frames: 19
Airborne Frames: 19
Landing Frames: 4
Total Frames to Work With: 13 against shield, 14 against spotdodge.

Pit:
Hitstun Frames: 18
Airborne Frames: 20
Landing Frames: 5
Total Frames to Work With: 10 against DJ airdodge, 15 against shield.

R.O.B.:
Hitstun Frames: 17
Airborne Frames: 18
Landing Frames: 4
Total Frames to Work With: 10 against DJ airdodge, 12 against shield.

Robin:
Hitstun Frames: 18
Airborne Frames: 19
Landing Frames: 4
Total Frames to Work With: 11 against DJ airdodge, 13 against shield.

Rosalina:
Hitstun Frames: 19
Airborne Frames: 26
Landing Frames: 4
Total Frames to Work With: 12 against DJ airdodge.

Roy:
Hitstun Frames: 18
Airborne Frames: 15
Landing Frames: 5
Total Frames to Work With: 10 against shield, 11 against spotdodge.

Ryu:
Hitstun Frames: 17
Airborne Frames: 15
Landing Frames: 4
Total Frames to Work With: 9 against shield, Focus Attack and True Shoryuken, 11 against spotdodge.

Samus:
Hitstun Frames: 17
Airborne Frames: 20
Landing Frames: 4
Total Frames to Work With: 10 against DJ airdodge, 14 against shield.

Sheik:
Hitstun Frames: 19
Airborne Frames: 13
Landing Frames: 7
Total Frames to Work With: 10 against shield, 11 against spotdodge.

Shulk:
(vanilla)
Hitstun Frames: 17
Airborne Frames: 19
Landing Frames: 4
Total Frames to Work With: 10 against DJ airdodge, 13 against shield.
(jump)
Hitstun Frames: 17
Airborne Frames: 15
Landing Frames: 4
Total Frames to Work With: 9 against shield, 11 against spotdodge.
(speed)
Hitstun Frames: 17
Airborne Frames: 18
Landing Frames: 4
Total Frames to Work With: 10 against DJ airdodge, 12 against shield.
(shield)
Hitstun Frames: 12
Airborne Frames: 13
Landing Frames: 4
Total Frames to Work With: lol
(buster)
Hitstun Frames: 17
Airborne Frames: 19
Landing Frames: 4
Total Frames to Work With: 10 against DJ airdodge, 13 against shield.
(smash)
Hitstun Frames: 19
Airborne Frames: 20
Landing Frames: 4
Total Frames to Work With: 12 against DJ airdodge, 14 against shield.

Sonic:
Hitstun Frames: 18
Airborne Frames: 19
Landing Frames: 4
Total Frames to Work With: 10 against DJ airdodge, 13 against shield.

Toon Link:
Hitstun Frames: 18
Airborne Frames: 21
Landing Frames: 4
Total Frames to Work With: 10 against DJ airdodge, 15 against shield.

Villager:
Hitstun Frames: 18
Airborne Frames: 21
Landing Frames: 4
Total Frames to Work With: 11 against DJ airdodge, 15 against shield.

Wario:
Hitstun Frames: 17
Airborne Frames: 17
Landing Frames: 4
Total Frames to Work With: 11 against shield, 12 against spotdodge.

Wii Fit Trainer:
Hitstun Frames: 18
Airborne Frames: 19
Landing Frames: 4
Total Frames to Work With: 10 against DJ airdodge, 13 against shield.

Yoshi:
Hitstun Frames: 17
Airborne Frames: 20
Landing Frames: 4
Total Frames to Work With: 7 against DJ armor, 10 against DJ airdodge, 14 against shield.

Zelda:
Hitstun Frames: 18
Airborne Frames: 22
Landing Frames: 4
Total Frames to Work With: 11 against DJ airdodge, 12 against Nayru's Love, 16 against shield.

Zero Suit Samus:
Hitstun Frames: 19
Airborne Frames: 16
Landing Frames: 4
Total Frames to Work With: 10 against shield, 11 against spotdodge.

 

[Rizen]

Can Ftilt/Dtilt/Dsmash catch 2 frame ledge snap vulnerability?

 

[Stryker95]

Can Ftilt/Dtilt/Dsmash catch 2 frame ledge snap vulnerability?

Edit: FTilt and DSmash can but DTilt doesn't reach below the ledge.

 

[JohnKnight416]

I've just watched this video about a special Edge-guarding tech called 'Instant Tether Trumping'. The video was made by the Beefy Smash Doods and I found this video to be quite helpful for us Link mains since this is a tech that is exclusive to characters with a tether grab. This video explains everything about what Instant Tether Trumping is so I recommend watching the video if you want to learn about the tech itself.

There were also some setups that Link can perform with Instant Tether Trump that were shown in the video in which I made a list about. Note that some of these setups are specifically meant for punishing certain ledge options that the opponent might do when they're in a trump situation.

When the opponent gets trump:
Setup 1
Setup 2
Setup 3
When the opponent does a getup roll:
Setup 1
When the opponent does a getup jump:
Setup 1

These were pretty much all of the setups for Link that were shown in the video. Although there could be more possible setups than the ones that I listed.

I also want to point out that Link can Instant Tether Trump with an item in his hand. Which was is explain at this point of the video.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I've just watched this video about a special Edge-guarding tech called 'Instant Tether Trumping'. The video was made by the Beefy Smash Doods and I found this video to be quite helpful for us Link mains since this is a tech that is exclusive to characters with a tether grab. This video explains everything about what Instant Tether Trumping is so I recommend watching the video if you want to learn about the tech itself.

There were also some setups that Link can perform with Instant Tether Trump that were shown in the video in which I made a list about. Note that some of these setups are specifically meant for punishing certain ledge options that the opponent might do when they're in a trump situation.

When the opponent gets trump:
Setup 1
Setup 2
Setup 3
When the opponent does a getup roll:
Setup 1
When the opponent does a getup jump:
Setup 1

These were pretty much all of the setups for Link that were shown in the video. Although there could be more possible setups than the ones that I listed.

I also want to point out that Link can Instant Tether Trump with an item in his hand. Which was is explain at this point of the video.

Umm, we knew about the instant tether trump since back in January (and the tether trump itself long before that). The information we've had available amounts to much more than what is shown in the video. The video actually leaves a lot out, like the frame data (it's super vague because they don't know it) and the trick on certain stages (like dream land, which they don't know about because I've only ever told Link mains).

 

[ZodanX]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFTC8W0opAs I dont mean to be posting this but, can someone tell me what happened when my shield broke. I need to know

 

[Stryker95]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFTC8W0opAs I dont mean to be posting this but, can someone tell me what happened when my shield broke. I need to know

Your shield took too much damage and broke... and then he FSmashed you. Not sure what you want here.

EDIT: Foxy brought it to my attention that you may have been wondering why your knockback on getting FSmashed was so low. Well, the silly Mac main did the downwards angled FSmash which deals 50 base knockback, but only has a knockback growth of 21, which is very little, thus sending you not very far and allowing you to live.

 

[JohnKnight416]

Umm, we knew about the instant tether trump since back in January (and the tether trump itself long before that). The information we've had available amounts to much more than what is shown in the video. The video actually leaves a lot out, like the frame data (it's super vague because they don't know it) and the trick on certain stages (like dream land, which they don't know about because I've only ever told Link mains).

I figured that you probably knew about this tech already, and I'll admit that this video doesn't exactly explain the other factors with this technique, such as frame data, etc. Still, it doesn't hurt to revisit an previous topic.
So what is it about this trick that you mentioned on certain stages? Also, do you mind telling me where I can the previous thread covering everything about this tech since I honestly don't know much about this tech and have only just started to look into it.

 

[Nd_KakaKhakis]

Has anyone explored any optimal ways to damage yourself with bombs?
Similar to Ally's snake hurting himself in brawl to get out of chain grab percents if you take your opponents stock (like a DK or any character really centralized around a single kill setup) and see you're in kill-setup percent it could be very advantageous to damage yourself outside of the range where the kill setup connects.

Considering that Link has that awful weight and is susceptible to many kill confirms it could be pretty useful to be able to hurt yourself for 10% or 15% quickly between stocks or if your opponent is sent really far off-stage.