Link

[SmashShadow]

We all saw what happened to his recovery in brawl. Link cannot afford anymore nerfing in his moveset.

 

[xxbroken-gloryxx]

If they gave link a more powerful boomerang (like the one in smash 64) and a better recovery, he would be a decent character.

 

[SmashShadow]

Give him:
fire/ice arrows.
melee recovery
stronger boomerang
rolling bombs(hold Bv to roll or tap Bv to pick up)
light beams(when using smash attacks at 0%)

 

[Venraneld]

I don't think we have to worry about what changes they would make to his boomerang since they are almost certainly going to be using the Skyward Sword Link and he didn't have a boomerang. I've been wondering for a while now what his replacement move would be. At first I was thinking that the Skyward Strike would work well, but that doesn't take into account the charging aspect.

So then I thought maybe they could change his Bow to F+B and make his Skyward Charge (where he holds his blade up and charges it) be his Neutral+B. Then his next smash attack would shoot the Skyward Strike. This would also power up his Spin Attack.

But even cooler (but less likely) would be if they made his Skyward Charge his up taunt. Link has so many items he could use and giving a unique function to a taunt like that would open up another special button slot. My guess would be on the Beetle or Whip. I'm just hoping they don't give him the Gust Bellow. Can anyone say "FLUDD"?

Also, whoever thought of the sailcloth and bomb rolling ideas is brilliant.

 

[Diddy Kong]

If we have Skyward Sword- Link for this game, I could see them opt to merge Toon Link's current play style with Link's. Creating a slightly floatier Link with better jumping, aerial game (copying Toon Link's Fair and Bair maybe), recovery and a slight revamp in moves. As the Skyward Strike for Side B indeed, a vertical Spin Attack for Up Smash, a double hitting F Tilt and more.

 

[Venraneld]

My guess is that Toon/Young Link won't be in this one. As popular as he is, they are saying that they want to limit the number of characters and have diversity. Having two versions of Link that are just slightly different would be a bummer since another character could be represented instead.

If they do, for some reason, have a small Link be in the game, I think it would be a good idea to have Toon Link as one skin and Young Link as an alternate costume for it. And going off of that idea, it would be kind of cool if they used Skyward Sword Link and had Twilight Princess and OoT Links for alternate costumes. There's a fair chance of something like this happening since Namco is developing this one and they have tons of customizable character things in their games.

 

[asia_catdog_blue]

Not important, but I remember that the Nintendo Power Player's Guide had a name for every attack that the characters had and used in Melee. Here is Link's.

Weak Attacks

1-2-3/Multi-Hit: Slash, Counter Slash, Stab/Illusion Stab

Strong Attacks

Upward: Half-Moon Swipe
Forward: Sword Chop
Downward: Grass Cutter

SMASH ATTACKS:

Upward: Triple Sword Swipe
Forward: Sword Slice, Double Sword Slice
Downward: Sword Sweep

Dash Attack: Running Hack

Aerial Attacks:

Center: Hylian Kick
Front: Spinning Sword
Back: Double Kick
Up: Stab-Up
Down: Sword Plant

Special Attacks

Standard B: Bow
Foward B: Boomerang
Upward B: Spin Attack
Downward B: Bomb

Grapples and Throw Downs

Pummel: Hilt Strike
Front: Kick Out
Back: Reverse Kick Out
Up: Sword Launch
Down: Flying Elbow

Eh, more or less.

 

[fogbadge]

they can base him on any of the links from any of the games and do what ever they like to his moves he'll still be my main character

 

[Ember Reaper]

Link in Brawl is awesome. Just needs recovery. That's all there really is to it!

 

[Jeff the Killer]

Link is good and all, but he is a really good character. If you can use him right, you can obviously get the biggest recovery move in Brawl. Either by Bomb or Metroid.

 

[FooltheFlames]

Fix his recovery and bring back the power and semi-spike properties of the SKRA! (Spin Attack) Also more speed, lots more speed. And less lag, lots less lag.

 

[FooltheFlames]

I would main Link in every Smash if he was good.

What r u talkin bout willis? Hes great in every game! Link is full of Win! Hes the hero of Hyrule! Hes... WAAHH!! :'( Your right Sakurai is such a meanie! I personally think hes jealous of the Zelda series, how else do you explain H Tier?

 

[RomanceDawn]

What r u talkin bout willis? Hes great in every game! Link is full of Win! Hes the hero of Hyrule! Hes... WAAHH!! :'( Your right Sakurai is such a meanie! I personally think hes jealous of the Zelda series, how else do you explain H Tier?

It isn't Sakurai who balances Link which I find extremely odd. Someone from outside the team comes in and does it. It explains so much! It's as if this mystery person or persons who does do the job balances him in a way they think will be balanced with all the other characters. Only they gimp him every single time. There is no reason why Toon Link should have more knock back in Smash Attacks and just be better over all.

So if Link does return I please hope there is a huge amount of people balancing every character. The real question is why Sakurai does not balance Link himself. Sonic being late I can understand but Link?

 

[Robert of Normandy]

It isn't Sakurai who balances Link which I find extremely odd. Someone from outside the team comes in and does it. It explains so much! It's as if this mystery person or persons who does do the job balances him in a way they think will be balanced with all the other characters. Only they gimp him every single time. There is no reason why Toon Link should have more knock back in Smash Attacks and just be better over all.

Sakurai has been in charge of balancing the game since the beginning, it's only with SSB4 that he's admitted he's done a s***ty job and has said he will let other people handle balance.

 

[RomanceDawn]

Sakurai did not balance Sonic and Link, it's an absolute fact. Everyone else but those 2 characters.

Edit: Not sure if you are agreeing with me not. My point is even for the new game I wonder if Link is regarded as holier than thou so some outside force has to come in and balance him. Basically because of some strange request with the higher ups at Nintendo. I don't want that happening with Smash4.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

Sakurai did not balance Sonic and Link, it's an absolute fact. Everyone else but those 2 characters.

Edit: Not sure if you are agreeing with me not. My point is even for the new game I wonder if Link is regarded as holier than thou so some outside force has to come in and balance him. Basically because of some strange request with the higher ups at Nintendo. I don't want that happening with Smash4.

Not sure if we are using the same definition of balance. Are you talking about how unbalanced Brawl was? I was referring to how Sakurai was in charge of nerfing/buffing characters and changing movesets as he saw fit.

 

[RomanceDawn]

I think we are talking about the same thing. Yes Sakurai was in charge of nerfing/buffing each character accept for Link and Sonic. If Link is to get better it's got to be through collective input from all the folks on the balancing team. In the context of that interview it sounded as if someone from outside of the brawl team was specifically positioned to give Link all his stats.

I'm saying I don't want this mysterious outsider to be balancing Link or I suppose Sega to be balancing Sonic.

 

[Rizen]

I see several people use Link so come post current Link things on the Link forums http://www.smashboards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=144 and social http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=254551 , we could use the forum traffic.
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Link's appearance:
I doubt Link will look like SS because SSBs always takes the realistic approach; even to cartoony characters. Look at the subspace movies- all the characters look great and work with unlikely partners (Link+Yoshi etc). Many of the characters look more realistic in Brawl that they ever have and stay true to their games but not usually a single game.

Link in SSBs=OoT Link with fighting modifications. Melee=better graphic SSBs Link. Brawl=Wii generation graphic SSBs Link. He always is the quintessential blond, left handed realistic adult Link. His Brawl weapons were TP style but he kept his blond, left handed look.
So I don't think that will change but you never know for sure. Personally, I like realistic graphics and am not a SS style fan.
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Link as a fighter:
Being so low every time sucks. People say Link looks good in theory but sucks in reality and that covers it. With the focus on better balance and not 'reinventing the wheel', Link has a chance to be good.
Toon Link is a high tier because his mobility; TL's ground game is slower in frames than Link's, their air attacks are too different to compare and projectile spam serves different purposes (Link spacing+traps, TL spam walls+damage more-so) but are roughly even and Link's Zair/weight/power is better. TL can actually space successfully, recover/play offstage and avoid CGs.

This is from a Link guide on those forums some shameless person() wrote:
"*During a game Link’s bad traits work together against him.
Hidden Message Hide
Lag, bad OoS, risky grab, bad mobility, bad recovery, fast falling speed, slow sideways air speed, easy to grab, can be CGed by several characters, easy to gimp, easy to shield, and easy to damage/juggle are a horrible combination of cons. Say you’re fighting a bad MU like DDD: mistake in spacing>shield grabbed>CGed across the stage>thrown offstage>DDD Bair walls with his multiple jumps and gimps Link. That’s a very high price to pay for getting sloppy. DDD is one of Link’s worst MUs (with MK and Falco) so other fights will be a little more forgiving. Link still has to work insanely hard to stay ahead and he can lose a stock and the lead so easily there is little or no room for error.


"
Link has good tools but terrible stats and was poorly designed.

I hope they make Link better and keep him true. Not reinvent him as a character but give him the stats he deserves to recognize his great potential.
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Expecting flames here but I hope Link keeps his Gale boomerang http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEu29QF2ejM&list=PLDC7F8FD99C40C4DB&feature=player_detailpage#t=216s . It's one of Link's most awesome items in the Zelda series and unfortunately has largely unrecognized potential in SSBs. The big complaint is Melee's boomerang was better <the story of Link right here. If his Gale rang wasn't nerfed and had Melee's boomerang's speed, less lag, etc and a little stronger wind it could be an incredible spacing and gimping tool. A slight pull on shields would be nice and remove the catching lag too. I don't want to see it be thrown out before it has a chance to shine.

 

[Master Knight DH]

Just give Link's Up B in midair the ability to chargeup for better distance and make defensive power useful. The latter doesn't seem like much until you realize that Link only needs above average defensive power in a game where defensive power works to makes use of his high variety.

 

[SmashShadow]

Not sure making it chargeable would help as his fast fall speed would cause him to lose so much altitude while charging. I'd rather him just have his melee recovery.

 

[Master Knight DH]

You realize that chargeup's vertical boost failing to outpace the altitude loss would make it pointless, right?

 

[SmashShadow]

Well, it's not like he can stall in midair while he's doing it so that's gonna have to be some boost. It would probably have to go probably much higher than he did in the previous games to make up for that and I would just see it looking kinda silly if his recovery went shot up so high. Although I guess it could work if the charge up was really fast.

 

[Rizen]

Boosting Link's sideways air movement speed, raising his jumps slightly, making UpB be more like Melee's with longer distance and the ability to create it's own sideways momentum is how I'd fix Link's recovery. He'd still be at the shorter end of recoveries but it would be enough to work. /IMO

 

[Master Knight DH]

I'd rather have the chargeup, so that the recovery could be used for survival, but simultaneously stop Link from being able to gimp effectively.

 

[Baskerville]

Give him a reverse Zair. Same with TL & Samus.

 

[Bobert]

I think all of Links moves in brawl are all fine except for his god awful recovery.

 

[jigglover]

I think his recovery is fine.

 

[Ember Reaper]

I think his recovery is fine.

Fixed that for you

 

[asia_catdog_blue]

Give him a reverse Zair. Same with TL & Samus.

...all right, I'll bite. What is a "Zair?"

 

[Sanity's_Theif]

Link needs a crap ton of help, he completely sucked in Brawl

 

[Robert of Normandy]

...all right, I'll bite. What is a "Zair?"

Air tethers. What happens when you press "Z" in midair.

 

[jigglover]

Fixed that for you

It was fine how it was!
Honetly, I was telling the truth!

 

[Rizen]

Recovery:
"*Can potentially be gimped by any character at any %. Instantly turning the tide of battle against Link.
Hidden Message Hide
His recovery is short both vertically and horizontally. Link must have great DI and clever recovering projectile cover and strategy to survive. One way to think about it is basically 95% of Link recovering is DI, projectile cover, his weight, strategy, mix-ups and 5% is his actual recovery."
Link needs a buff but his biggest problem is lag then poor mobility, imo.

 

[jigglover]

I think we can all agree Link needs a buff. Thanks for the guide (Links a second or third, sometimes take him to tournies, you'll be happy to know) it was just immense.
The thing with his recovery is that it's like Yoshi's, better in the ground than in the air, specially in Melee... :/
His Up-B is actually a pretty good finisher, and sometimes if an opponent is in the air I sneak up on it and rack up some damage with it. If you get him with the last swing then he goes flying almost every time. That's what I meant by his recovery is fine, It's not that good for recovering, but at least they buffed it from melee...

 

[Ember Reaper]

I think we can all agree Link needs a buff. Thanks for the guide (Links a second or third, sometimes take him to tournies, you'll be happy to know) it was just immense.
The thing with his recovery is that it's like Yoshi's, better in the ground than in the air, specially in Melee... :/
His Up-B is actually a pretty good finisher, and sometimes if an opponent is in the air I sneak up on it and rack up some damage with it. If you get him with the last swing then he goes flying almost every time. That's what I meant by his recovery is fine, It's not that good for recovering, but at least they buffed it from melee...

He lacks both horizontally and vertically. Doesn't get much worse than that. Unless the bomb jump is used effectively, but thats so difficult to time and keep teh bomb for when you need it.

 

[Rizen]

Link lost melee's bomb jump too . He has to let the fuse burn 7 seconds or throw the bomb against a wall or something in brawl. 2 bomb jumps without landing or grabbing an edge would be a stretch even at high damage%

 

[Gene]

Boosting Link's sideways air movement speed, raising his jumps slightly, making UpB be more like Melee's with longer distance and the ability to create it's own sideways momentum is how I'd fix Link's recovery. He'd still be at the shorter end of recoveries but it would be enough to work. /IMO

I can agree with this. Do you think Link's running speed should get a boost as well? It seems like his running speed has gotten slower since smash 64. Not that it's a problem for me but for Link's sake. Maybe he can have some less laggy moves?

 

[Pichu4SSB4]

Maybe he can have some less laggy moves?

For his ground moveset, yes. Aerials should remain the same if L-Cancelling ever does come back because it did him a big favor. As well did they have good knockback.

 

[Rizen]

I can agree with this. Do you think Link's running speed should get a boost as well? It seems like his running speed has gotten slower since smash 64. Not that it's a problem for me but for Link's sake. Maybe he can have some less laggy moves?

I would boost his running speed a tiny bit. Link doesn't rely on running in Brawl because he has a great landing canceling game and slides. Terrible sideways air movement+ the 2nd fastest fall speed in the game (after DDD) are what work against him. Link isn't suppose to be a mobile character but he needs better mobility to compete. I like his fall speed; the thing is DDD has 6 jumps, better weight and a longer upB. Link needs an air speed boost the most. A minor running boost would be to get Link in an acceptable range.

IMO, Link's lag is his biggest problem even more than his recovery.

Spoiler

"*Great disjointed reach on standard attacks.
Hidden Message Hide
Link’s sword reach is about even with Marth’s. He loses spacing battles more from his lag than having the shorter attack. Link’s legs become disjointed during Bair and Nair about as much as Link’s sword is. Hitbubbles for Fair cut 1 and Jab 1:

Compare to MK’s Fair and Ftilt:


Link’s reach is good. But now compare his frame data vs MK’s (note I’m comparing Link’s jab combo with MK’s Ftilt combo):
Fair
Link
Frame 13: Hitbox out: 9 damage, 2 frame duration.
Frame 25: Hitbox out: 12 damage, 2 frame duration.
Frame 50: Autocancel.

MK
1-5 startup
6-7 hitbox out
8-9
10-11 hitbox out
12
13-14 hitbox out
15-39 aerial cooldown

Jab Link
Jab 1
Frame 6: Hitbox out: 4 damage, 2 frame duration.
Frame 7: You can start Jab 2.
Frame 19: IASA. At this point you can do any action, but pressing A will still do Jab 2.
Frame 27: Animation is over. At this point pressing A will restart Jab 1 rather than doing Jab 2.
Jab 2
Frame 5: Hitbox out: 3 damage, 2 frame duration.
Frame 9: You can start Jab 3.
Frame 20: IASA
Jab 3
Frame 5: Hitbox out: 5 damage, 5 frame duration.
Frame 36: IASA
52 frames total for all 3 jabs as fast as possible (if I read the data correctly 7+9+36=52)

Ftilt (all 3 cuts as soon as possible) MK
1-2 startup
3-4 1st hit hitbox out
5
6-7 2nd hit hitbox out
8
9-10 3rd hit hitbox out
11-40 cooldown

Keep this in mind when spacing with Link. MK’s the best but a large amount of Link spacing any opponent is factoring Link’s lag and using tip-of-attack spacing (explained in a later section)."

Spin Attack - Grounded:

6 frames until charging. Upon release:
Hitboxes: there are three in this move. I will call them Tip, Blade, Hilt.
Frame 3: Hitboxes out.
--Damage: Tip = 9, Blade = Hilt = 12
Frame 8: Hitboxes become weaker.
--Damage: Tip = 7, Blade = Hilt = 9
Frame 20: Hitboxes become even weaker.
--Damage: Tip = 5, Blade = Hilt = 7
Frame 36: End laughable hitboxes.
Note: the last 180 degree rotation Link does has no hitboxes at all.
Frame 76: End of animation.
^It hits 1 time (if shielded the other hits don't count), starts frame 9 fastest, no armor frames, crazy ending lag, and the blade has hitbubbles so it's possible for the opponent to drop in between spins, land and PS
Standing Grab:
Frame 11: Catch collisions out: 8 frame duration.
Frame 85: End of animation.

Running Grab:
Frame 13: Catch collisions out: 8 frame duration.
Frame 95: End of animation.

Pivot Grab:
Frame 14: Catch collisions out: 7 frame duration.
Frame 95: End of animation.

Link has huge potential but his stats and vulnerability to juggles/CGs/gimps kill it before Link has much chance. Although his Fair/Bair/Nair/Zair landing cancel, he can quickdraw arrows and bombs/boomerang don't stop from landing (like PK Fires), Link's low jumps and air mobility take away most of that pro. The opponent can PS>grab and Link's s****ed .

As mentioned somewhere earlier, Toon Link's a high tier and he doesn't have better moves/tools than Link except the mobility to space and recovery. Link shouldn't be floaty like TL but he needs less lag and mobility buffs. Link's a spacing character who can't space.

 

[Zane the pure]

I believe it would be wise to make Link's grounded spin attack about as quick and painless as in Twilight Princess (great-spin on full charge) to give him a more reliable/safer/faster finish that wouldn't be easy to stale. It'd be perfect in conjunction with the jab-cancels and mix-in a throw here and there to keep him variable.

A venerable boost to his overall mobility should mandatory, I can't remember the lad ever being slow in his games... quite the opposite really (even more blatantly in Skyward Sword)

I'd say project M is about right on his recovery, but a little height boost as well as being able to move without momentum would't kill him either. Maybe better stun on his recovery attack so opponents hit will take every slash with a tad larger hitbox, cutting down on senseless gimping.

I believe his U-air as iconic as it is, could be replaced by something of more utility, or made faster to use in combos god-willing there is actual hit-stun in SSB4. Besides Link defensively was more prone to letting bombs do all the talking straight above him outside of a combo. Make his Grab a tad harder to dodge on reaction, and not make it utterly in effective if the opponent is off ground right in-front of you. Keep Z-air mostly the same as SSBB

And perhaps the properties on his projectiles being something like:
1: Arrows are less restricting to fire, and perhaps more aim-able (something like being able to move a tad and loosening the bowstring at will would be nice) its not like Link mains are afraid of less ease of use right?
2: boomerang near identical to SSB64 form and have a shorter cooldown on catch (or none if they let Link break reality like every other character in the game)
3: bombs able to be thrown a tad further than normal Items (he should be a projectile specialist for crying out loud) and maybe 3 instead of two limit for better shenanigans, be able to simply drop them on the ground, and allow Link to destroy them on hit.

And all ground CQC having better frame advantage, a tad more shield pressure&stun, and changing his D-tilt to the stab from OoT (the d-tilt spike being situational at best after all) IMO he should be a swiss army knife character well capable from close, mid, and long ranges who has many options that can outweigh other more specialized characters so long as the player is talented enough. He should be well rounded in all areas and highly adaptable to emphasize his character in Zelda.