Link Social Thread

[Heero Yuy]

I love 3.5 Link so much! His projectile nerfs really force you to play a more mid-range game and the harder combo system promotes creativity. In spite of Link's options getting nerfed I feel like I can force myself utilize all of Link's tools - the sword and the items - rather than just space with the rang all day.

Definitely fits my playstyle! Thanks Hylian.

 

[Fortress]

Playing Link does feel a lot smarter now, and I enjoy it. I actually really have to think about using my AGT and tether offstage to recover before performing them each time to come back. I've even been forced into situations where I have to AGT and spin attack to come back, only to get knocked away to have to attempt AGT (weaker since it wasn't fresh) into my last resort, the tether. Definitely feels like 3.5 promotes some much smarter play throughout the whole cast.

 

[Dandizzle]

Yo that Link DACUS is crazy. I'm jumping into this character for the first time for 3.5 can someone give me some tips?

 

[DarkDeity15]

Any word on his DACUS and bombslide? Have they improved any?

 

[cmloe]

Any word on his DACUS and bombslide? Have they improved any?

Dacus is harder to do now since everyones dacus is 2 frames.

 

[EmptySky00]

I really wish his bomb range wasn't neutered as hard as it was. Bombs are a 40 frame commitment to pull out. There's no reason they should move 4 feet when thrown.

And I wish they would have made it so the hitbox actually matches the boomerang better so that it doesn't fly over shorter characters' heads. I find that like really obnoxious.



And Bair still doesn't work properly, but no one is intent on listening to me.

 

[Fortress]

but no one is intent on listening to me.

Because all you're doing is complaining :^)

 

[Hylian]

I'll never understand people who say bair doesn't work properly lol. I just streamed a bunch and got plenty of sick bair combos including bair -> waveland -> bair -> double jump -> bair -> land on BF platform up-b.

Link can no longer brute force his way through neutral and mindlessly combo, he requires more precision and skill. In regards to overall balance he's in a very good place considering the cast-wide nerfs. He's even better at edgeguarding than he was before, and the nair change only really affects the flub hit a small bit, people shouldn't really feel a difference in it.

 

[EmptySky00]

I'll never understand people who say bair doesn't work properly lol. I just streamed a bunch and got plenty of sick bair combos including bair -> waveland -> bair -> double jump -> bair -> land on BF platform up-b.

Link can no longer brute force his way through neutral and mindlessly combo, he requires more precision and skill. In regards to overall balance he's in a very good place considering the cast-wide nerfs. He's even better at edgeguarding than he was before, and the nair change only really affects the flub hit a small bit, people shouldn't really feel a difference in it.

Tell your opponent to learn to DI. Against Umbreon that **** never connects. Even against CPU that **** fails constantly.

I'll never understand people who lie and say that move actually does work properly. I've never seen Marth's Nair or Ivy's Nair throw people away for no reason like Link's Bair does. Ever.

I don't want stuff to be omnipotent, I just want it to be reliable and work like it should at least most of the time.

And it turns out you took away all semi-reliable conversions. Time to play camp neutral for years and years until I can land a clean hit and kill at ****ing 170 again. Risky ass grab game rendered not worth it. Neato. I wasn't even against toning him down because I understand the cast-wide nerf thing, but some of these nerfs don't make him feel toned down, they make him feel artificially neutered and it makes me sick.

Oh, and the change list says that the sweet spot was changed to vary depending on which hitbox you hit with which seems completely arbitrary. And the BKB was lessened. And I definitely notice when I hit them at higher percents expecting to send them offstage and they go nowhere.

 

[Fortress]

I'll never understand people who say bair doesn't work properly lol. I just streamed a bunch and got plenty of sick bair combos including bair -> waveland -> bair -> double jump -> bair -> land on BF platform up-b.

Link can no longer brute force his way through neutral and mindlessly combo, he requires more precision and skill. In regards to overall balance he's in a very good place considering the cast-wide nerfs. He's even better at edgeguarding than he was before, and the nair change only really affects the flub hit a small bit, people shouldn't really feel a difference in it.

I know that I don't feel it, in fact, I feel like I get even more use from my nAir now. As for the bAir, I can still bAir > grab > dThrow > bAir > grab > dThrow on the correct DI, so, things are still great. Plus the dThrow > dAir 'helm splitter' combo still works, and, well, that's all great.

@ Hylian I've been working on a project today in debug, and, I don't know if it's worth the time or if Link players might appreciate it. I wanted to make a detailed frame data list for each of his attacks, including the Hitstun, Blockstun, and the percent ranges at which they tumble and for how many frames they tumble for in those ranges.

Tell your opponent to learn to DI. Against Umbreon that **** never connects. Even against CPU that **** fails constantly.

I'll never understand people who lie and say that move actually does work properly. I've never seen Marth's Nair or Ivy's Nair throw people away for no reason like Link's Bair does. Ever.

And it turns out you took away all semi-reliable conversions. Time to play camp neutral for years and years until I can land a clean hit and kill at ****ing 170 again. Risky *** grab game rendered not worth it. Neato. I wasn't even against toning him down because I understand the cast-wide nerf thing, but some of these nerfs don't make him feel toned down, they make him feel artificially neutered and it makes me sick.

Hylian and I disagree more than we agree, but, come on, this is the most sound build of Link since 2.5-ish times. Are you going to try and argue with one of the devs? Who knows better? Not only does Hylian know what he's doing, Umbreon (as far as I'm still aware) enjoys the build so far. Is it really 'everybody lying' about a move working properly when you are the only one ******** and moaning about how having to adjust and learn to play is soooo hard. It's a lot of work, isn't it? Now that your character isn't a brainless wreck?

Maybe you should quit complaining, give the build more than a day, and just git gud. Go do yourself a favor and get in the lab.

 

[Hylian]

Tell your opponent to learn to DI. Against Umbreon that **** never connects. Even against CPU that **** fails constantly.

I'll never understand people who lie and say that move actually does work properly. I've never seen Marth's Nair or Ivy's Nair throw people away for no reason like Link's Bair does. Ever.

And it turns out you took away all semi-reliable conversions. Time to play camp neutral for years and years until I can land a clean hit and kill at ****ing 170 again. Risky *** grab game rendered not worth it. Neato. I wasn't even against toning him down because I understand the cast-wide nerf thing, but some of these nerfs don't make him feel toned down, they make him feel artificially neutered and it makes me sick.

How am I lying? I've used bair successfully against many top players. Generally when it fails I understand why and it's usually my fault for not spacing it correctly. There are plenty of multi-hit moves that are escapable, that is a by-product of their design. Link has plenty of conversions(jabx2-> dtilt confirm, dash attack confirm, throw confirm(one of the best throw games period actually), bair confirm...a good majority of his moves combo. Link is not a fast character, which inhibits a long combo game that a character like falcon would have, but he still has great short combos that give him positional advantage and set up edgeguards and/or juggles.

Landing a clean hit is part of playing smash. If you cannot land a clean hit it's a fault of your own, not of your characters. The is an intrinsic part of playing the neutral game in smash, and a large design goal of this entire patch was to remove things that brute forced their way through that neutral game. Getting hits SHOULDN'T be easy. Go look at lucas/diddy changelogs and get back at me if you want to see actual tier defying nerfs. Link might possibly even be BETTER in 3.5 than he was in 3.02, while at the same time being far less dumb to play against.

 

[Fortress]

If you cannot land a clean hit it's a fault of your own, not of your characters.

Don't you ****ing lie to me.

 

[JesteRace]

Yo, Link feels great. I didn't even notice a difference at first, cause I play more reactive/adaptive than aggressive. What got toned down needed to be toned down for the sake of thoughtful gameplay. And hello, 5 frame jumpsquat, hell yes.

 

[Heero Yuy]

With a new metagame underway, I was thinking of getting all the Links on this board together into a more reliable method of conversation amongst each other. Link discussion on a more consistent fashion will definitely boost all of our skill levels, but Smashboards does take quite a while.

Therefore, I propose...Can we make a P:M Link Skype Group? I invite everybody on this board to tag along. If you like the idea, feel free to shoot me your Skype tag.

 

[AtlusKnight]

Sounds like a fun idea I wouldn't mind taking part of learning new stuff with the new link with everyone else here. My skype tag is atlusknight.

 

[JesteRace]

Not a bad idea at all

 

[EmptySky00]

How am I lying? I've used bair successfully against many top players. Generally when it fails I understand why and it's usually my fault for not spacing it correctly. There are plenty of multi-hit moves that are escapable, that is a by-product of their design. Link has plenty of conversions(jabx2-> dtilt confirm, dash attack confirm, throw confirm(one of the best throw games period actually), bair confirm...a good majority of his moves combo. Link is not a fast character, which inhibits a long combo game that a character like falcon would have, but he still has great short combos that give him positional advantage and set up edgeguards and/or juggles.

Landing a clean hit is part of playing smash. If you cannot land a clean hit it's a fault of your own, not of your characters. The is an intrinsic part of playing the neutral game in smash, and a large design goal of this entire patch was to remove things that brute forced their way through that neutral game. Getting hits SHOULDN'T be easy. Go look at lucas/diddy changelogs and get back at me if you want to see actual tier defying nerfs. Link might possibly even be BETTER in 3.5 than he was in 3.02, while at the same time being far less dumb to play against.

I never said you were lying nor did I say the move doesn't have the capacity to work ever, I said it fails far more than it should for no reason and that I simply wish it worked like it should. I've hit with the inner hitbox, tried every spacing, and each and every one has failed more times than not. I know people who share my observations as well so yet again it isn't just my imagination. The move in general feels flimsy and overly fallible. But you just seem intent on telling me I'm just stupid every time I bring this up.
The sheer risk factor involved with his throw and the speed of it makes me disagree that it's the best throw game. Effective when it works, perhaps, but the accessibility isn't there. But I don't care about that.

Ugh, I was going to just argue that you're misinterpreting my view of the game or whatever, but let me just restate my point.

I don't care about Link being toned down to fit the cast of 3.5

But some of these nerfs are completely unnecessary. For example...
You made a mistake on the change log.

"Bomb throw distance changed to match Soul Calibur 2."
Bombs are a 40 frame commitment to pull. There's no reason they had to be hit like that.

I really hate arguing with you in general because you obviously have the masses on your side and what I'm trying to say gets lost in the echo and I'm just made out to look like a ******, so whatever. Bombs and Bair.


Edit: I thought there already was a Link skype group?

 

[DarkDeity15]

All this Link news has me like:

The 5 frame jump squat really helps since in 3.2, it hindered Links mobility and made him feel clunky (SH aerials were a pain and you would often end up with a jump cancel instead, which is super obnoxious). It's why Sm4sh Link was my favorite (and he probably still is). To be quite honest, I'd love it if they took a bit of inspiration from Sm4sh Link. Heck, give Link some unique attributes rather than making him a beefed up Melee Link. I love re-learning my main and it's one of the best parts of playing a new Smash game imo.

 

[Hylian]

I never said you were lying nor did I say the move doesn't have the capacity to work ever, I said it fails far more than it should for no reason and that I simply wish it worked like it should. I've hit with the inner hitbox, tried every spacing, and each and every one has failed more times than not. I know people who share my observations as well so yet again it isn't just my imagination. The move in general feels flimsy and overly fallible. But you just seem intent on telling me I'm just stupid every time I bring this up.
The sheer risk factor involved with his throw and the speed of it makes me disagree that it's the best throw game. Effective when it works, perhaps, but the accessibility isn't there. But I don't care about that.

Ugh, I was going to just argue that you're misinterpreting my view of the game or whatever, but let me just restate my point.

I don't care about Link being toned down to fit the cast of 3.5

But some of these nerfs are completely unnecessary. For example...
You made a mistake on the change log.

"Bomb throw distance changed to match Soul Calibur 2."
Bombs are a 40 frame commitment to pull. There's no reason they had to be hit like that.

I really hate arguing with you in general because you obviously have the masses on your side and what I'm trying to say gets lost in the echo and I'm just made out to look like a ******, so whatever. Bombs and Bair.


Edit: I thought there already was a Link skype group?

First off, I never told you that you were stupid.

When I'm referring to his throw game I'm doing just that, I didn't mention his grab. He has a very high risk/high reward grab game.

I didn't and still don't agree with the bomb change. While I have a lot of influence for Link changes, I'm not the main designer of the character so not everything is exactly how I personally want it. I don't think it's that big of a deal however. My problem with your comments on bair is you don't provide evidence. Please give me videos or make one detailing how bair doesn't work, it will be a lot more productive than just complaining every patch about it.

 

[Heero Yuy]

The Link Skype Social is slowly growing. PM me your Skype names if you wanna be a part of it.

 

[Player -0]

Link's Nair feels pretty off to me. It feels super weak compared to 3.02. I'll mess around with the foot some more but around the rest of his body and stuff it feels like it doesn't send nearly as far.

 

[AtlusKnight]

They reduced the knockback and damage on the different parts of the Nair the foot being the one that sends people off the farthest but that has been greatly reduced. I think it leads to more set ups honestly if L canceled and landed properly.

 

[Player -0]

The late part of the old Nair did the same thing but didn't come with the derpy before part of the move. The new sweetspot did the old sourspot and I'm pretty sure less damage too.

 

[AtlusKnight]

Yup pretty much. Nair got nerfed pretty hard.

 

[Player -0]

I'd like to hear some of the other Link's opinions on the Nair nerf. I talked to E2xD a bit and he said he liked it, more like Melee.

 

[Fortress]

I never said you were lying nor did I say the move doesn't have the capacity to work ever

I'll never understand people who lie and say that move actually does work properly.

I'm sorry, but I have to ask you if your foot is tasting good right about now.

I'd like to hear some of the other Link's opinions on the Nair nerf. I talked to E2xD a bit and he said he liked it, more like Melee.

I enjoy it a lot. It's kind of comparable to having the flub box on zAir, and having the option between dragging your opponent in, or shoving them away and poking them off of the stage. With the new hitbox mechanics on nAir, I have more options with my spacing and more endings to my strings involving it. I can utilize it to get a very light poke and set my opponent up on a platform for a tech chase, or I can get the hard hit and put them off of the stage if I feel I need to. I can use the weak box to keep my opponent in place to combo, or I can blow them up with the hard box spacing. Link has more options off of nAir now, and frankly, that's a good thing.

 

[_Chrome]

I feel like Link's nerfs were justified. He was too powerful in 3.02, and the nair feels decent to me. Not horrible, but not amazing like before. Having link as my main, I'm glad his rang was nerfed; it was way too powerful.

 

[_Chrome]

All this Link news has me like:

The 5 frame jump squat really helps since in 3.2, it hindered Links mobility and made him feel clunky (SH aerials were a pain and you would often end up with a jump cancel instead, which is super obnoxious). It's why Sm4sh Link was my favorite (and he probably still is). To be quite honest, I'd love it if they took a bit of inspiration from Sm4sh Link. Heck, give Link some unique attributes rather than making him a beefed up Melee Link. I love re-learning my main and it's one of the best parts of playing a new Smash game imo.

^Dat Link doe.

 

[Fortress]

Try not to double-post, and edit where you can, @ _Chrome

Link's in a great position in 3.5. He still does what he does best, and actually struggles in the matchups that he should struggle in. Sheik, Fox, Falco, to a lesser extent Falcon and Mario. He feels like Link again, and that's a very good thing.

I should point out that as a bomb maniac, the only thing I'm a little let down about are the bombs, but, I'll live.

 

[l3thargy]

Speaking of Sm4sh Link, anyone else wish P:M Link had the forward and back rolls from that game or is it just me?

 

[Player -0]

I literally just talked about the double posting in the tier speculation thread ~5-10 minutes ago :l There's an edit button for a reason. Please use it unless you're trying to bump a thread or have an important announcement on something.

I'm still pretty disappointed about the Nair but I'll play with it more, not sure if I'll be going Link in tournament. Hopefully I'll get used to it. RIP 3.02 Nair though.

@ Hylian Do you know the stats on Melee Nair? I checked the Melee hitbox/frame data but that was literally just hitbox/frame data (No BKB/KBG).

 

[_Chrome]

Try not to double-post, and edit where you can, @ _Chrome

Link's in a great position in 3.5. He still does what he does best, and actually struggles in the matchups that he should struggle in. Sheik, Fox, Falco, to a lesser extent Falcon and Mario. He feels like Link again, and that's a very good thing.

You nailed it man! It makes me happy to play as him again, because I can feel rewarded once more for outsmarting my opponents to win, rather than using braindead rangs and dash attack combos.

 

[Jolteon]

I literally just talked about the double posting in the tier speculation thread ~5-10 minutes ago :l There's an edit button for a reason. Please use it unless you're trying to bump a thread or have an important announcement on something.

I'm still pretty disappointed about the Nair but I'll play with it more, not sure if I'll be going Link in tournament. Hopefully I'll get used to it. RIP 3.02 Nair though.

@ Hylian Do you know the stats on Melee Nair? I checked the Melee hitbox/frame data but that was literally just hitbox/frame data (No BKB/KBG).

It has 3 separate hitboxes (9/11/8 DMG), all of them have 15 BKB/100 KBG. Lingering hits do 7 DMG/10 BKB/100 KBG.

 

[Shadic]

3.5 NAir is the exact same as Melee Nair, except the hitboxes don't last until the move is over.

It allows for more creative uses with spacing for combos, and requires a modicum of effort for the sweetspot.

It's also on a far better character than Melee Link. With faster jump startup.

 

[Fortress]

I think the only thing I dislike about the new Link is the fact that I can't full-stage throw bombs anymore, but, that wasn't exactly a great thing...

 

[Heero Yuy]

I heavily incorporated DACUS into my 3.0 Link play... Now they made it even harder than multishining. ):

 

[cmloe]

I heavily incorporated DACUS into my 3.0 Link play... Now they made it even harder than multishining. ):

They made it harder to do but in my opinion it doesn't take long to get used to. A little trick i am using when i dacus is as soon as i hit dash and c-stick down i angle my control stick to the top right so its a little faster than going straight up. Hopefully that makes sense.

 

[Fortress]

I'll have to try that, because I can only seem to nail the timing half the time.

 

[cmloe]

I'll have to try that, because I can only seem to nail the timing half the time.

Yeah the timing is weird at first but its good to learn because once you know how to dacus with link, you can dacus with everyone else since they are all the same now.

 

[Shadic]

Link's DACUS timing would have changed anyways because of his jump start change, FWIW.