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Link in teams: Fight or Flight(Teaming with Pit)
- Thread starter Ryos4
- Start date
Anymore thoughts on ZSS?
I was wondering about the armor piece usage. Would it be best if Link tried to keep a hold of as many as possible to both help defend himself by D or U throwing them. Or possibly only keep 1 of them so there's less of a chance that Link could lose possession of them and then used against him. Or would it be best to just spam them all at the opponent and hope for an early kill/fast damage and risk losing them all really quickly.
I think Link should probably hold on to 2 at most. One to Uthrow or Dthrow and the other one to just do w/e you want with it. Link does have really good item juggling capability and many of the Link players to train bomb juggling to perform ZAC, Bomb Zair, and bomb smashing.
However, at the same time if Link does juggle around armor pieces, he loses the ability to make use of his bombs for the most part. Does the benefit of armor pieces out weigh the drawbacks?
I was wondering about the armor piece usage. Would it be best if Link tried to keep a hold of as many as possible to both help defend himself by D or U throwing them. Or possibly only keep 1 of them so there's less of a chance that Link could lose possession of them and then used against him. Or would it be best to just spam them all at the opponent and hope for an early kill/fast damage and risk losing them all really quickly.
I think Link should probably hold on to 2 at most. One to Uthrow or Dthrow and the other one to just do w/e you want with it. Link does have really good item juggling capability and many of the Link players to train bomb juggling to perform ZAC, Bomb Zair, and bomb smashing.
However, at the same time if Link does juggle around armor pieces, he loses the ability to make use of his bombs for the most part. Does the benefit of armor pieces out weigh the drawbacks?
quirkynature
Smash Ace
The armor pieces do 12% damage and knockback. Honestly, I think the APs are better than bombs (for a while). It's a good mix-up and combined with the tricks and gimmicks Link can do when holding bombs (invinciarmorpiece lol) might be a change.
And no pieces will go to waste. ZSS can hold onto one and Link can juggle the other two. Or throw away one and keep two (which I like).
And no pieces will go to waste. ZSS can hold onto one and Link can juggle the other two. Or throw away one and keep two (which I like).
Scabe
Successful Businessman
I think Link with ZSS's pieces are better than his bombs. Zair > Item Throw.
You can control them just like your controlling bombs. I really want to team with a ZSS now.
You can control them just like your controlling bombs. I really want to team with a ZSS now.
quirkynature
Smash Ace
So we moving onto Lucas, now?
quirkynature
Smash Ace
Edit: sorry for the double post. >_<
I was thinking around 7, i think she would do better then Fox if you count the pieces in the beginning and are able to hold on to them. I was playing a ffa yesterday with a zss and i managed to hold on to an armor piece for like half the match. And thats with 3 people trying to kill you.
Well i guess thats it.
Moving on.
Well i guess thats it.
Moving on.
From the Lucas thread on Lucas himself.
Lucas: Punish Tank Gimmick
Carry- 2
Stock Tank- 6/9
Punisher- 9
DPS- 7
Great Offensive Support
Good Defensive Support
Moderate Interference Issues
Absorber
Energy Projectile (Punish/DPS)
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=260661
This is what is shown about Lucas in Dekar’s great Team thread that is a really good read to learning how to play teams effectively.
Lucas overall is a 7 out of 10. He is a great team player with great punishing options. However when Lucas has the right partner that can help him be the great stock tank he can be then he gets a solid 9 out of 10. He is one of the best teammates in brawl. Healing is a great aspect that only him and Ness share and his punishing options with his many recovery options make him a good teammate overall.
Now to summarize Lucas in teams here is a list of key items for any character as to how they do in teams:
What is lucas's role in a team?
What should lucas be doing at any given time?
Does lucas have a easy time with any of the following roles:
1. surviving forever
2. killing
3. splitting opponents up
4. 2v1 combat
5. his role in 1v2
6. attacking opponents who are engaging your teammate to open them up
7. racking damage without leaving himself open to the other player
Breaking down Lucas with each question is how it goes from here:
What is Lucas’ role in teams?
As said in Dekar’s thread Lucas is a great Punisher and Stock tank. He can kill really well also with his healing aspect he can shine as a stock tank. This stock tank quality, however, only applies to certain characters that have the ability to heal him. With his powerful smashes Lucas can kill his opponents a lot easier since his teammate can help rack damage, however, unlike another character that has this power (GW) Lucas has severe cool down issues with his smash attacks. His ground game is great as we know but his air game is what he lacks. Lucas needs someone who can help him eliminate some of his weaknesses and also help raise his strengths greatly.
What should Lucas be doing at any given time?
Lucas, if having the right partner allows him to do so, must be abusing his PSI Magnet. With this he can keep stocks, which in teams is very important. Lucas should also be trying to look for set-ups in which he can really shine and contribute to helping his partner out. Lucas can also rack up damage quite well so this is another plus he should be doing. However his main priority should always be trying to keep stocks and looking for ways to punish.
Does Lucas have an easy time with any of the following?
1.) Surviving forever – With the right partner, Yes. Otherwise he is above average. *most strongest asset with the right partner*
+
/\This vid is a great example of how well Lucas can stock tank especially with the right partner on the right stage/\
2.) Killing – Yes, early smashes, great ground game, setups. Lucas’ second strongest point in teams. *first strongest if you don't have the right partner :V*
3.) Splitting opponents up – Not an easy time but can do pretty decently.
4.) 2v1 combat – Yes, Because Lucas can help set up and with his teammate helping to set up moves to his early killing smashes he does have an easy time with this however he needs a partner that can help keep the opponent away from him. Also in 2v1 Lucas and his partner can heal alot easier now so keeping stocks is easier.
5.) His role in 1v2 – No, this is an important necessity for teams and sadly Lucas lacks in the department.
6.) Attacking opponents who are engaging your opponents to open them up – Yes, With Lucas’ projectiles he can accomplish this however not as easy as Ness.
7.) Racking damage without leaving himself open to the other player – No, his smashes have a lot of cool down and his air game does not have priority over most air based moves.
This is rPSI's take on Lucas in teams and who would be good partners to aid him in this.
Lucas' greatest strengths are his ability to kill pretty early compared to others (sort of like Gdubs), but unlike Gdubs, he has A LOT of cool down on his smashes. If he's going to be the punisher in doubles, he's going to need a good set-up. The people that first come to mind are:
MK D-throw
Snake D-throw
Falco D-throw
DDD D-throw
Gdubs D-throw
ZSS D-smash
Marth's throws
Pika F/D Throw
Another great strength of Lucas is his vertical spacing. However, Lucas generally lacks safe horizontal spacing. People that come in mind that are good at it are
MK
Snake
ZSS
ROB
Marth
DK
Next we need someone who can really capitalize Lucas' n-air. People who really can help include.
MK
ZSS
Gdubs
Pika
etc.
Now we all know that Lucas has a great ground game, but a lot of his aerials are just flat out beat by other things such as DDD b-air. Lucas would prefer someone great in the air.
MK
ZSS
Gdubs
Pika
Wario
Marth
Lucario
Ness
Lucas also has the ability to stock tank extremely well given his partner. The best ones include:
Lucario
ZSS
Pikachu
Ness
This is a basic Break-down of how Lucas is himself in teams thanks to the Lucas mains of the Lucas boards. Overall Lucas is great in teamsbut he has to be abusing that PSI Magnet like it is no tomorrow. Great partner.
A problem is Link can't rescue Lucas (L) besides bombs and L is super vulnerable when rescuing Link off stage; both characters are easy to gimp. Both characters are also at high risk from friendly fire; teammates will need strategy and practice. Link can't heal L either.
On the plus side, this team has power. L's smashes, particularly Usmash are big and broken. Link has several hard hitting big moves too. I see this as a 'kill or be killed' team.
Brinstar or Halberd helps stop gimps and cater to this team's huge star KO potential.
On the plus side, this team has power. L's smashes, particularly Usmash are big and broken. Link has several hard hitting big moves too. I see this as a 'kill or be killed' team.
Brinstar or Halberd helps stop gimps and cater to this team's huge star KO potential.
It seems like a team that wouldn't work well together as said. No real bonus for either of them to team with each other. No heal for Lucas and no real good approacher/good dps for Link.
However, both characters are really great at setting and utilizing jab locks. Lucas can Dair>Dtilt lock> any smash.
In this team it seems like Link would be in the fray more so then Lucas. While Lucas can handle being in the battle about as well as Link maybe slightly better. It seems like it would be better if Lucas took some time to set up powerful attacks like PK freeze or a PK thunder 2 on the opponents while Link occupies them. If not Lucas could probably run in with Nair, jabs, and possibly F/Dsmash while Link supports like he usually does.
However, both characters are really great at setting and utilizing jab locks. Lucas can Dair>Dtilt lock> any smash.
In this team it seems like Link would be in the fray more so then Lucas. While Lucas can handle being in the battle about as well as Link maybe slightly better. It seems like it would be better if Lucas took some time to set up powerful attacks like PK freeze or a PK thunder 2 on the opponents while Link occupies them. If not Lucas could probably run in with Nair, jabs, and possibly F/Dsmash while Link supports like he usually does.
Scabe
Successful Businessman
Wow their team thread is pretty good. We should re-discuss Link with those points.
So sorry im late ^^" been tied up, anyways ill try and summarize this team the best i can after i go off of these quotes. ;D
Alright let me go off this for a sec.
Lucas/Link is probably mediocre at best. (4-5) Due to the fact this team will not be winning any tournaments any time soon. It's not a complete loss though. Lucas can rack up damage quite nicely and both can kill. Also another thing is Lucas/Link can both stock tank with this team but it is better for Lucas to be. The reason being he has better camping tools to help Link than vice-versa. In a 2v1 situatation is the best situation for this team because it is where they can really shine. Lucas can annoy with his DPS and camp game while Link keeps going for the kill or if need be they switch roles and Lucas goes for the kill. It is for whatever you feel the most comfortable with.
Now saving each other. Lucas can save Link alooooooooooooot easier than he can save him. DO NOT TRY AND SAVE LUCAS WITH THE BOOMERANG! It just messes with PKT2 recovery or can mess with trying to Zapjump. Try and throw a bomb most likely. Lucas can save Link with PKT but it is true that he isn't put in the best position while doing so. It is kindof nightmare situation when either Lucas or Link is offstage and the other is by themself in a 1v2 situation.
Both get flat out beaten in the air ;-;
and are characters you are gonna have to watch out for.
The bad is basically evened out by the good which makes this team at best a 5.
Think of this team as Link on his adventure with his little sidekick Lucas :3
Hope I helped you guys! ;D Also ill be stealing that ZSS summary and after the Lucas one that one to <3333. Thank you in advanced Ryos for letting me do so
The only thing I found wrong with this is Lucas being easy to gimp. Lucas has an above average recovery with 4 options. (i.e. Wavebounce, PKT2, Tether, and Zapjump). Brinstar makes this team really **** since it is both their best stages. <3
I agree with this mostly however, Lucas is a pretty good DPS himself but gets beaten out by others. (i.e. ZSS, Pit, Snake, ROB come to mind). Your right though. Lucas should be staying behind and helping Link by camping. Lucas is a good stock tank to go off with even without his healing attribute buuuuut healing makes it utterly broken which sadly Link does not do.
Thank you <3 I can get you guys the questions and stuff we used if you would like.
Alright let me go off this for a sec.
Lucas/Link is probably mediocre at best. (4-5) Due to the fact this team will not be winning any tournaments any time soon. It's not a complete loss though. Lucas can rack up damage quite nicely and both can kill. Also another thing is Lucas/Link can both stock tank with this team but it is better for Lucas to be. The reason being he has better camping tools to help Link than vice-versa. In a 2v1 situatation is the best situation for this team because it is where they can really shine. Lucas can annoy with his DPS and camp game while Link keeps going for the kill or if need be they switch roles and Lucas goes for the kill. It is for whatever you feel the most comfortable with.
Now saving each other. Lucas can save Link alooooooooooooot easier than he can save him. DO NOT TRY AND SAVE LUCAS WITH THE BOOMERANG! It just messes with PKT2 recovery or can mess with trying to Zapjump. Try and throw a bomb most likely. Lucas can save Link with PKT but it is true that he isn't put in the best position while doing so. It is kindof nightmare situation when either Lucas or Link is offstage and the other is by themself in a 1v2 situation.
Both get flat out beaten in the air ;-;
and are characters you are gonna have to watch out for.The bad is basically evened out by the good which makes this team at best a 5.
Think of this team as Link on his adventure with his little sidekick Lucas :3
Hope I helped you guys! ;D Also ill be stealing that ZSS summary and after the Lucas one that one to <3333. Thank you in advanced Ryos for letting me do so
Oh a post was left saying we could use the ZSS/Link summary for her thread. I'll try and dig up the post.
Edit:
Edit:
quirkynature
Smash Ace
deviation
As I said, I didn't know if there'd be "may I" issues, but it seemed quite pointless to do the whole work twice when they'd already given us input on the team.
/deviation
As I said, I didn't know if there'd be "may I" issues, but it seemed quite pointless to do the whole work twice when they'd already given us input on the team.
/deviation
im so sorry but i think this is about as much as you will get out of the Lucas/Link in teams discussion ;-;
However i might stick around and help chat about Link in doubles more haha
idk why but the last two discussions havr gotten me interested in looking at Link more.
However i might stick around and help chat about Link in doubles more haha
idk why but the last two discussions havr gotten me interested in looking at Link more.
Scabe
Successful Businessman
Wario is one of the best partners not for Link but in general. But he'd probably do really well with Link anyways.
You could probably do Wario Bite > Link Dair
You could probably do Wario Bite > Link Dair
Scabe
Successful Businessman
Yeah he's down throw has little knockback and it goes behind him. His Fthrow is pretty good too, since he spins around and takes a while to do it, so you can react to it.
SnackAttack
Smash Champion
Wario in 2 v 2.
We kill early.
We can tank quite well.
We're good support.
That's about all I know on our side, sorry.
We kill early.
We can tank quite well.
We're good support.
That's about all I know on our side, sorry.
Wario works very well in teams but I don't know about Wario teaming up with Link. Link can be gimped easily and that would be the main issue. Wario is an amazing tank and he can hold stocks incredibly well because his running away ability is ridiculously good. Like Snack said, he can kill very early with fresh smashes.
I don't necessarily know the combo set-ups with Link. But for teams Wario's dthrow can lead up to anything.The Wario will always want to dthrow if his partner is behind him. I think a good set up would be Wario dthrowing with Link landing a good dair but it seems risky because the dair could potentially hit Wario. Problem is Wario doesn't have good throws except for his fthrow which racks up damage and kills with "POOR" DI.
I don't necessarily know the combo set-ups with Link. But for teams Wario's dthrow can lead up to anything.The Wario will always want to dthrow if his partner is behind him. I think a good set up would be Wario dthrowing with Link landing a good dair but it seems risky because the dair could potentially hit Wario. Problem is Wario doesn't have good throws except for his fthrow which racks up damage and kills with "POOR" DI.
Link can't do any set-ups so that'll be difficult so it means Wario will be doing most of the work from grabs. Link could at low-percent do an fthrow which could lead up to an fsmash or a waft. Other than that, I wouldn't know much about what Link could offer to the table in teams. But that would be the best situation to land a waft without Link getting hit.
Well I think this team would be okay for Link. As he will be able to do his natural role of support with projectiles. While wario goes in with aerials, link can stay grounded and support. As far as i can tell wario does best when his opponents are knocked into the air. He can fully make use of his aerials. However, he loses the potential for ground cancel to Fsmash, which seems to be soo popular for wario players.
I think a neat combo they could do with the "waft" would need a platform. BF or YI are examples. Link grabs and goes into an Up throw and Wario is on the platform above waiting with a Waft. Kind of like a Link Uthrow combined with his bomb uthrow. He might even be able to get them while Link is still technically throwing them. But the grab super armor might cause the enemy to suffer no knock back from it though. Its also important for wario to avoid being too high when he does it or may even kill himself on accident.
I think a neat combo they could do with the "waft" would need a platform. BF or YI are examples. Link grabs and goes into an Up throw and Wario is on the platform above waiting with a Waft. Kind of like a Link Uthrow combined with his bomb uthrow. He might even be able to get them while Link is still technically throwing them. But the grab super armor might cause the enemy to suffer no knock back from it though. Its also important for wario to avoid being too high when he does it or may even kill himself on accident.
quirkynature
Smash Ace
That would be my guess...
quirkynature
Smash Ace
Actually, I'd like it if you'd go with Pit.
Well im not really sure where to rate wario. Obviously he should be fairly high being that hes basically one of the higher rated characters. With a carry of 7 (pretty high) and everything else is either as high or higher. I'm thinking of rating him about 6 or 7. With not too much talk about this team, I'll try to fill in the blanks that i run into.
Anyway lets move on to my character of choice. The one and only angelic archer. Pit.
Yes the picture is a little gay. But then again most of Pit's pics are a little gay looking. lol. Sadly enough. Especially the ones with Ike...
Anyway
DISCUSS
Anyway lets move on to my character of choice. The one and only angelic archer. Pit.
Yes the picture is a little gay. But then again most of Pit's pics are a little gay looking. lol. Sadly enough. Especially the ones with Ike...
Anyway
I dont agree with all of this but meh. lol I'll get into this later.
DISCUSS
Scabe
Successful Businessman
I'm amazed that you found a picture of Link and Pit
quirkynature
Smash Ace
Er....OK...
Pit: Punish/DPS?
Carry- 7
Stock Tank- 7
Punisher- 5
DPS- 8
Great offensive support
Decent defensive support
Pit is light, has an almost ungimpable recovery, good aerial speed, good juggling and comboing ability due to low knockback moves but a low variety of kill moves.
For DPS, Pit's low knockback and fast startup moves can easily handle an opponent, and combo the hell out of them, allowing Link to jump in for a kill move (not that Pit can't kill himself).
As for stock tanking, his recovery is great, so no problems there. He is on the lighter side, so star KOing becomes a bit of an issue here.
Offensive Support:
(Ryos' data goes here)
Defensive Support:
Can an offstage Pit (with all jumps and WoI available) help Link recover back up using purely arrows? Can you effectively Wall of Pain Link back up to the stage? o_0
It's a crappy reply, but I felt like contributing something useful.
Well Pit in my opinion is actually fairly good but not nearly anywhere near the top. His main issues are killing. Where Link actually does quite well.
Offensive support:
Well one thing for sure about Pit is that he is one of the best characters with knocking up abilities. Many of his attacks will send opponents straight up. Dtilt, Utilt, Dash Attack, Dair, Uthrow, and Dthrow. If Link can manage to be ready and above pit. It could lead to alot of Dairs. Or even just foot stool combos.
For foot stool/jab locking. Pit has really no way of locking other then weak Bair/Fair. And only once. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFUfHguxFdg This video has a few set ups Pit can do on his own to lock. Really doesn't seem to help him alone much. But with someone with such stomping power as Link and his ability to jab lock as well. Pit and Link could just go hunting for locks the entire match. Note the infinite jab lock with Links jabs and Pit using WoI to push people back.
With Pits ability to control his arrows so accurately (if the player can). Pit can support Link from anywhere on or off stage, close or far away. One arrow could completely change the tide of a battle for Link. It can stop chain grabs, stun someone long enough for Link to combo, and of course save him from death.
Defensive Support:
When Link is knocked off stage Pit has a few options. Most useful and probably successful would be his Dair. It isn't a very strong move so you wont be killing Link. And it pops Link straight up. Second way is to use an arrow after Link uses his spin attack, though honestly, you may end up killing him if you shoot him at the wrong time. 3rd and probably the craziest would be to Wing Refresh to right under Link and let him foot stool you. Leaving Link in a better position and Pit still has 3 jumps, a glide, and his WoI to recover.
Also Pit may be fairly light. But for some reason i find that i can live forever as Pit. Up to and beyond 180% as long as he can avoid major vertical killing moves. Which isn't as hard as it sounds. With his ability to be a threat no matter where he is, also helps him in stock tanking. He can make it nearly impossible for someone to chase him off stage. And even if they do he can easily recover high, recover low, and fly under the stage to the other side.
Thats all for now.
Offensive support:
Well one thing for sure about Pit is that he is one of the best characters with knocking up abilities. Many of his attacks will send opponents straight up. Dtilt, Utilt, Dash Attack, Dair, Uthrow, and Dthrow. If Link can manage to be ready and above pit. It could lead to alot of Dairs. Or even just foot stool combos.
For foot stool/jab locking. Pit has really no way of locking other then weak Bair/Fair. And only once. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFUfHguxFdg This video has a few set ups Pit can do on his own to lock. Really doesn't seem to help him alone much. But with someone with such stomping power as Link and his ability to jab lock as well. Pit and Link could just go hunting for locks the entire match. Note the infinite jab lock with Links jabs and Pit using WoI to push people back.
With Pits ability to control his arrows so accurately (if the player can). Pit can support Link from anywhere on or off stage, close or far away. One arrow could completely change the tide of a battle for Link. It can stop chain grabs, stun someone long enough for Link to combo, and of course save him from death.
Defensive Support:
When Link is knocked off stage Pit has a few options. Most useful and probably successful would be his Dair. It isn't a very strong move so you wont be killing Link. And it pops Link straight up. Second way is to use an arrow after Link uses his spin attack, though honestly, you may end up killing him if you shoot him at the wrong time. 3rd and probably the craziest would be to Wing Refresh to right under Link and let him foot stool you. Leaving Link in a better position and Pit still has 3 jumps, a glide, and his WoI to recover.
Also Pit may be fairly light. But for some reason i find that i can live forever as Pit. Up to and beyond 180% as long as he can avoid major vertical killing moves. Which isn't as hard as it sounds. With his ability to be a threat no matter where he is, also helps him in stock tanking. He can make it nearly impossible for someone to chase him off stage. And even if they do he can easily recover high, recover low, and fly under the stage to the other side.
Thats all for now.