Link in teams: Fight or Flight(Teaming with Pit)

[Ryos4]

Intro

Hello there Link Boards! ^_^

Thanks to J from the Lucas boards for starting this team thread. But now its my turn to take it over. Anyway I will attempt to both reorganize this first thread as add some collapsing threads for each team.

Linking Link with a good team member is crucial. It is important to find a character that can minimize your weakness and strengthen your strengths, and vise verse. There are many variables to think about when choosing a partner. What role will each character play? How will your partner affect your match ups and you theirs? What kind of combinations can you two perform? Ect.

Discussion Points

Dekar’s Doubles and You, a Comprehensive Guide to 2v2s A thread that goes in depth about double roles. Helpful for discussion roles.

Roles (Carry, Stock Tank, DPS, Punish, and Support)
Stage Picks
Team Work Strategies
General Tips
Ranking
Special Notes


Rating Template

10 = Probably one of the best partners
9-8 = Really good but not perfect
7-6 = Not too shabby! :o
5-4 = Moderate at best
3-2 = Consider a new partner
1-0 = Double fail ftw?
~:~ = Not yet discussed


Characters Discussed

Link

~Link In Doubles~ Pg. 1

Spoiler

Range attacks are more about recovery aid (for you and your partner, bombs always launch up), stopping offstage recovering opponents, and confusion/distractions. Not damage like 1 vs 1s projectiles are too slow. Bombs and boomerang can seriously destroy spacing. Arrows fly far when charged or SH/jumped.
Direct uncharged arrow and bomb spacing:

(Distance of) 1 quickdraw, 2 SH arrow, 3 jumped arrow, 4 weak bomb toss, 5 Forwards thrown bomb, 6 SH/jumped Forwards thrown bomb.

Really good contributions so far. Keep it up!

Doubles is probably my favorite thing to do. It's a shame that Link isn't the greatest team partner, not only that I'm not much of a team player.

I use to place pretty well with my doubles team: "The Hyrule Kings Of Swing" = Scabe (Link) + Silfa (DK).

But ever since a tournament where we got dominated by MK's and didn't win a single match, we've been thinking over what to do with our team.

Anyways I'll start of with just talking about Link.

Pros:

• Good at living to high percents provided that he doesn't get gimped.
• He's got some reliable kill moves that kill around 120
• Projectiles are good for damage racking.

Cons:

• Slow and somewhat a big character
• Projectiles get in the way and hit your ally
• Bad recovery
• Low tier character with many bad matchup

Overall Link doesn't look too bad as a team partner. He's got some decent stats, his biggest weakness are that he can't carry a team to victory and that he has large interference issues.

I think that Link would work best with a characters who any characer who can carry and punish:
Marth, Lucario

But in general look for Punishers, Assist and characters with good defensive support (to help his recovery) and try to avoid characters that have any interference issues since Link is already a big interference issue:
MK (Carry/Assist)
Wario (Tank/Punish)
Kirby (Punish)
Game and Watch (Punish)
Ike (Punish)
Luigi (Punish)
Bowser (Tank requires baby sitting though/Punish)
Jigglypuff! <3 (Punish/assist)

Carry:
Link isn't a character you can to rely on as it's main source of achieving victory. He has many bad matchups.

Stock Tank:
Link regularly lives above 150+ with his amazing momentum cancel. If only his recovery wasn't so bad, its easily gimped which takes away alot of this living potential.

Punisher:
His best kill move is Dair, it has great vertical knockback and kills early at around 100%, find ways to use this move in teams.

Apart from Dair, he's got many other decent kill moves such as Fsmashes, Dsmash, Up B, second hit of fair and others like Ftilt, Uptilt, Up air,

DPS:
His projectiles are good for dealing slow chip damage. Bombs are good for combos such as Full Hop > Bomb Throw Down > Fair/Nair.

Decent Offensive Support:
I don't really know what this means but I'll take a guess. Zair would be a great support when your partner is fighting the opponent while your on the other side of the opponent.

Dealing with Link's Large interference:
It's a big learning curve teaming with Link since he's got projectiles flying everywhere. Your partner will have to learn how to get around your projectile spam, and you will have to spam in a way that is easy for your partner to deal with.

Give yourself some limitations such as:

• Don't spam in the direction of your partner.
• Full hop and throw bombs down

General Tips:

• Keep an eye on the whole screen and watch every character is.
• A team that works together will do much better than a team that does 1v1.
• If the oppurtinity arrives where you can 2v1 an opponent always take it.
• Play to your character strengths

Link Tips:

• Up B out of shield could be a good way to clear some space for Link.

Combos:

• Find ways to land Link's Dair, the higher and less DI'd the throw is the easier it is to land his Dair.
• Find team combos with Link's full hop bomb throw down. Think of the possibilities!
• Link's down throw may have a good set up to an aerial hit from your team mate. This is only a guess coz usually it's easily DI'd. Most of his throws are easily DI'd. Just experiment what you can do with them.

Videos:

Scabe
Link + DK: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5E1xgWLFkLE
Link + ROB: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rWMdRqQFBo

Kirin + WIll: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ba02LQZBRcM

1.
The Dark Lord, King of Evil, and Overall Bad Guy Pg.2-3
Rating: 1

Spoiler

Okay so there's been alot of talk about this team being horrible and stuff but let's try to give some input that will help out anyone who is willing to try this team in doubles. Think of friends who enter low tier doubles etc.

I like the pairing up, two of the worst characters in the game which is from the same game, Hero + Villian, Team combination doesn't get as epic as this.

Let me start of with referring back to Dekar's guide:

Ganondorf: Punish
Carry- 1
Stock Tank- 1/7 (babysitting)
Punisher- 8
DPS- 4
Great Offensive Support
Decent Defensive Support
Large Interference Issues

Ganondorf is a punisher equipped with a strong moveset. Almost all his moves are kill moves. Punisher's go good with characters who can DPS and tank, both qualities Link possesses.

Carry:
Link and Ganon both have a poor carry options. They're both going to struggle.

Stock Tank:
Ganon is heavy and can live up to high percents but he is in the same boat as Link where they are easily gimped and edgegaurded. Ganon's survivability is much worse in a team situation than Link is though. Opponents will quickly target him due to his big stature , he will quickly build up damage and lose his stock unless he is watched over by Link.

The fact is that Link doesn't have the defensive qualities to look after Ganon. Link is slow in terms of running speed, air speed, moves, pretty much everything. He can't rush in there and help Ganon if he's being brutally *****.

Punisher:
As said before Ganon has some really strong moves. Up air, Fsmash, Fair, Dair, are what I think are his reliable kill moves. Apart from Fsmash it seems as though Ganon's moves are good for killing opponents when they are off stage.

DPS:
Ganon's moves, are hard to hit with since their so slow, but when they do hit they deal quite alot of damage. Two stomps deal like 30 percent.

Offensive support:
Great Offensive support comes from his side B. As shown in the video I posted before: in a 2v1 situation Link can jab lock giving a Free hit to Ganon's powerful moves.

Decent Defensive Support:
If Link's being sandwhich'd by characters Ganon can come in with Wizkick to break it up. Don't really know how useful that is though and other defensive support moves he has.

Large Interference:
Both Ganon and Link have large interference issues, combined these two together and you have major interference issues. You'll probably find that you hurt each other as much as the opponent does, slight exaggeration. But if you guys want to work,

General tips:
The one idea I have is to have bombs out all the time, this may be hard since they take some time to pull out. Bombs can help Ganon's recovery when he's offstage. They can also help break apart enemies that are beating up Ganon.

Link should be the damager with his projectiles and focus on hitting opponent's offstage, where Ganon can go off and hit them.

In fact maybe the best option is to constantly try and put your opponent offstage. It's much harder than it sounds but when you do this you give Ganon + Link more room on stage which is something they want. If Ganon isn't fighting an enemy, hit an opponent offstage in his direction if he is fighting an enemy then hit the opponent offstage in the other direction.

Good Attributes
Heavy characters, many kill moves

Bad Attributes
Both easily gimped, Both are big slow targets

Characters to watch out for:
Double Metaknight I think would destory this team. Metaknights in teams would be extremely difficult for Link and Ganon to deal with.

Stage Picking
Big stages with lots of room. FD, Pictochat.

Platforms could help avoid the interference issue, Link can platform camp while Ganon's on the ground.

Advance Team Techniques
I think this team works well in a 2v1 situation. There's alot of opportunity for Ganon do use his strong moves when Link's gets a grab. Some of Link's throw's could lead to Ganon's Dair, such as Link's Fthrow.

Is the team viable?
I'd give this team a 0-3/10

Stage Picking:
Hmm maybe Norfair too? Awesome for characters easily gimped. Plus Ganon can spam his uair and dair off stage without having to worry about edge hogs. Chain grabs are limited there, and both Link and Ganon have nasty Dairs they can just spam everywhere. Lots of room for running around. If Ganon is close to death it would be so easy to go for a ganoncide.

Overall they are probably a terrible team with both having similar characteristic leaving them both with the same bad match ups, with no way of making up for them, except just being completely awesome.

2.
Train Riding Cartoon Kid Version of Link Pg. 4-5
Rating: 5

Spoiler

Taken straight from Dekar guide.

Toon Link: Tank DPS (projectiles)
Carry- 6
Stock Tank- 8
Punisher- 6
DPS- 7
Decent Defensive Support
Moderate Interference Issues


Toon Link, with his bad match-ups across the high-tier board (especially those *******s Snake and MK) puts him straight away at a disadvantage in a Carrying scenario. He can't really force an approach when he's behind, which is your main concern when trying to clutch a 2v1, and he doesn't necessarily "destroy" anyone in 2v2s, as he needs much more room to work his magic to its fullest. Carrying isn't his forte.

Stock Tanking on the other hand ... TL is certainly a beast. His keep away game is rivaled only by the likes of Falco or Pit, except his projectiles are more flexible in that they come out faster (than Pit) and are extremely versatile (in comparison to Falco). His zair is an excellent tool to keep threats to a minimum, and all of these things only help him to rack up damage, something every team needs in order to succeed.

Punish Moves:
•Usmash
•Uair
•Fsmash
•Dsmash (very strange mechanics to this move)
•Fair (everything kills at 180!)
For DPS TL relies primarily on his projectiles, of course, but also on his great close range capabilities, a sort of hit and run tactic, except as he's running, he's still pressuring you with annoying projectiles (and since one of them is technically an item, his mix-ups are amazing).

TL's primary interference issue is, of course, his projectiles. Luckily they are so great and varied that through the TL alone being an intelligent player, interference can be kept to a minimum.

Video:

MJG (TL) & Domo (MK) @ some tourney.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsP4HC6CjvU

This is an excellent video depicting what TL's playstyle should resemble, slow, and defensive, while constantly harassing the opponents through means of projectiles, while your teammate plays up close.

However that wouldn’t work well with Link.

In my opinion TL is a good partner for Link, as long as both of you can control your projectile spam. He's much faster then Link and can cover the faster opponents that Link may have trouble with. He can also handle the aerial based opponents alot better then Link can as well. His recovery is pretty decent, so if TL and Link are off stage, both should be able to make it back as long as the TL isn't selfish.

As far as team work, i find Link to be a really good vertical launcher. And with TL patrolling the skies with Bair, Uair, and Fair, it might make a pretty good combination. UTilt from Link followed by an UAir from Tl could spell death fairly early for some enemies. Also since Tl is so much more floatier then Link, he can easily cover any off stage fights, but in reality, i think it would be so much more fun to watch your opponents squirm with tons of projectiles preventing them from recovering. Link in front and TL behind full hopping bombs and arrows could be quite crazy. This could also work as a camping scenario, with TL easily able to peel off and run into battle with quick aerials, assuming your Link knows when to stop his barrage long enough for you to hop in front.

With TLs speed and projectiles, he can easily help babysit Link in his more difficult match ups. As well as help him recover (Bair, Bombs). Also TL can provide as a secondary finisher since its quite possible to play TL with very few smashes, since they don't do too much to change his damage output, he can also freely use his Fsmash without fear of killing Link, since he is able just skip the second hit if Link does manage to get in the way. At the same time Links smashes are much more important to his overall game play. Possibly leaving many of his kill moves stale.

As long as both characters avoid any major knock back they can both survive to fairly high %s. TL and his huge recovery, and Link with his great DI. So the stock tank could be either one of them depending on he opponents and the situation. Example if chain grabbers or really good gimpers around, TL will probably stock tank. If your against stronger opponents like a Bowser or Ike, it would probably be Link.

This team is rather inter-changeable in terms of roles since both characters are capable of doing both. So in my opinion this team would probably be around a 4-6/10. Team is rather average.

Stage picks:
Anything good for Link should be fine. TL will want Link working at his best, and TL shouldn’t have any problems with any stage that Link is good at. Though for best options would be big stages, Norfair once again probably being the best choice.

3.
Linking Link with Link Pg. 5
Rating: 1

Spoiler

There wasn’t much discussion on Link teams, even though this is a Link board…
Might have to revisit this later.

Some possibilities for this team…

I think this match would be really interesting if both Link players master the art of catching bombs. There could be some serious mind games with 4 bombs flying around with both Links controlling any of them at one point. Double bomb from one Link without him needing to set it up. Link's bombs could act like a grenade/c4 launch to chase people higher then 1 Link could alone. Partners bombs could help Link recover. Imagine having knocked up an opponent with Utilt/Uthrow at high%s and then 4 bombs tossed up for him to dodge with the possible addition of Uair from both Links, all of which could kill them.

Boomerang could be used to pull partner back to the stage or increase the height of his spin attack recovery. Boomerang could be used to pull your partner into an opponent while charging a smash or spin attack.

Edge guards would be almost as crazy as with Toon Link. Would work great with platforms.

Combo possibilities with Uthrow/Dthrow/Bomb>dair, especially with platforms. Infinite jab locks. I wonder what would happen if you caught an opponent between both Link's using Zair. Could they do some sort of Zair loop? Or maybe doing Jab cancels loops.

The whole double your pleasure doesn’t really work when Link is concerned.

My friend and I tried a double Link matchup, and all I will say is this: colossal fail, if not epic fail.

Apart from the gimping, we tried to mix it up by spamming as many projectiles as we could, but most of our bombs were merely caught and thrown back at us after a spotdodge or a shield. Link is just too slow to successfully come to his teammate's aid without leaving himself wide open (against almost any character).

The funnest part came, however, when we started spamming Boomerangs one after the other (spotdodges included, of course). It was, literally, a constant barrage of GBs which actually garnered a loud and explosive "WTF?!"

Stage picks would probably be pretty obvious in terms of a Link team. Anything good for Link would be good for 2 Links.
Large Stages: FD, SV, ect.
Other: Norfair, Brinstar
Avoid: Lylat, Frigate Orpheon, Castle Siege

4.
Well Excuse Me Princess! Pg.6-7
Rating: 6

Spoiler

From Dekar's guide.
Zelda: Punish Gimmick
Carry- 2
Stock Tank- 4
Punisher- 8
DPS- 5
Good Offensive Support
Decent Defensive Support
Minor Interference Issues
Energy Projectile (Punish/DPS)


Perspective from a Zelda Main

Zelda in teams with Link.
Pros:
- The spam can go uninterrupted. Zelda can shoot Din's through Link while he does his camping thing and that should work pretty well.
- Link can break Din's with his nair, So if someone needs to go into the fray in order to mix it up or whatever the Link can simply nair to stop from getting hit by dins and possibly hit enemies in order to make sure they get hit by Din's or vice versa.
- If Link DIs wrong or gets hit low Zelda can hit him with Din's to recover at the expense of damage.
- They don't lack kill power so they both should be able to kill well.

Cons:
- If they are both in recovery positions they are kinda screwed.
- They are both ridiculously slow. If Link is being overwhelmed Zelda's best bet is to just Din's everything and hope to reset the positions. If Zelda is in trouble I am not sure what Link should do though...
- Be careful not to gale boomerang Zelda while she is using Din's... because she could die.

I've done this team before too. It's actually a pretty decent team. Both are all about the big hits and both, when they hit, send an enemy flying and temporarily suspend the battle. Plus, Zelda has the awesome usmash and fsmash effect. This leaves plenty of time to act as a support and to actually move in and set some stuff up on smaller stages.
Further, Link and Zelda can actually be pretty destructive on stages like Battlefield. If both start swinging the big moves they can create some chaos between the opponents as they try to orient themselves in a way to not get hit by Zelda usmashes and Link dairs and fsmashes that can seem so rampant. This is one place where both can go aggro and actually achieve something. However, if one person messes up, then the momentum is displaced.
Both can support each other with kill moves, that's for sure. Even better, both's kill moves tend to lead into each other. Momentum is key in this team; I'd say it's a 6-7 rating.

Zelda in my opinion is extremely defensive and is rather underrated. Her smashes are pretty amazing with range, priority, speed, and even duration. So they would cause some craziness in the fray and Link could concentrate on support. While at the same time being rather safe from Link's Projectiles with Naru's love, which can also be a very good GTFO move.

I know one of Zelda's throws has a constant knock back, Dthrow i think. Send them directly behind Zelda not very far, making it easy for Link to know where they are going and set up a Dair.

Link's projectiles could act as stuns for Zelda to go in and go in for the kill with attacks like Utilt, Uair, and either of her Kicks.

While Zelda's Din's Fire does help Link recover. It does leave her wide open for quite a long time and may not be too helpful to the Team and could end up having both Link and Zelda taken out at the same time. However, the fire can be used to break up Link from opponents if hes in trouble, but at the same time Uspecial could do it as well, and help Zelda jump in between them. Thus allowing Link to go back to camping.

Zelda stage choice from Zelda Boards:

Good: BF, SV

Bad: everything else.

But seriously, she only does well on basic neutrals imo. Anything gimpy tends to not work out too well for her, especially tilts (Lylat), bad ledges (PS1, Frigate), and just plain stupid **** (RC). I'm also not a huge fan of stages with permeable bottoms (Halberd, Delfino), because FW can occasionally decide to miss the ledge and make you fall to your doom.

I suspect that Brinstar might secretly be good for her in some MUs, and I personally love Castle Siege, but those may be personal things.

brinstar is my fav CP with Zelda I love going there ^_^. RC is also a fav of mine so is halberd.

Brinstar apparently is a good choice for both characters. Might be a good stage for the doubles match. Battle Field is also possible since the team can have some good stage control.

Also i think its more of a problem that she gets a huge attack in the face after she comes out of her transformation.

Anyway there is a possibility of doing it safely. After Zelda (and possibly Link) knock away their opponents fairly far. Zelda can go into a switch and Link can defend her, or at least help prevent a kill move from landing on Zelda/Sheik as she gets out of her transformation. I think it could easily be done with just some projectile harass while Zelda/Sheik is in her invincibility.

I think the likelihood of a transformation is purely based on the player and the opponents. If the opponents counter Zelda or Sheik really well, the Zelda/Sheik player might look for an opportunity to transform.

5.
Ninja Train Toot Toot! Pg. 7
Rating: 4

Spoiler

Dekar's Guide
Sheik: DPS
Carry- 3
Stock Tank- 5 Really light and not the greatest recovery, but the chain can help sometimes.
Punisher- 6
DPS- 8 What sheik is all about.
Decent Offensive Support

Needles are Sheik's big helper trump card. The weakness Sheik nullifies is Link's difficulty landing hits. This should be focused on.
1-10, if Ganon+Link's .5, Sheik+Link's 2 or 3. As everyone in the discussion stated, both players would have to work together extremely well for this team to have a chance.

Sheik's job is to move around creating chaos, to save Link from being chained (1 ground needle can work well for this), quickly patrol the air, avoid Link's attacks, and maybe Ftilt an opponent in place for a team combo.
Link should go for KOs in the confusion left by sheik, be the powerhouse, avoid edges as always.

Spamming- one player should jump/SH while the other ground spams. Sheik's needles, even uncharged, pierce, have good range and stun, this could be comboed from.

With any match remember Link has 2 fast KOing moves with less lag than most: Dsmash
Frame 6: Hitbox out: 3 frame duration.
Frame 15: Hitbox out: 3 frame duration.
Frame 50: End of animation.
and Utilt
Frame 7: Hitbox out: 9 damage.
Frame 12: end of hitbox.
Frame 35: IASA

Sheik is one of those characters heavily relies on stringing attacks together. Which in a doubles match, isn't that great of an idea. With another opponent running around, its not going to be safe to combo people as support is not so far away. So basically its going to be up to Link to try an manage to keep other opponents busy as Sheik goes to work.

As for team work, i doubt there's any real way Link or Sheik can really save each other. Link has his bombs, but Sheik doesn't really have anything that wouldn't put her in danger of dying herself. As usual Link can provide projectile stuns for Sheik to pull off some crazy stuff, but then again Sheik doesn't have many strong moves for finishers, aside from her Up B vanish and Usmash (DAC). Dac might actually end up killing Link as well if Sheik isn't careful. Also the same for Link, but with any of his stronger moves, seeing as how light Sheik is. Sheik has the ability to crawl which could allow Link to spam a little more. Sheiks needles are really good stun, even with only 1. Also many of Sheiks attacks are very good at juggling, which might also make openings. Leaving it up to look to go in for a big attack for kills. However, communication is important so Sheik doesn't die in the process. Being as fast as Sheik is, she can probably baby sit Link from a great distance, that doesn't even count Needles.

Stage Picks: Because Sheik needs to move for this to be effective and both characters have different styles of range attacks, I suggest medium-large stages with platforms, Picto, Halberd, etc but it depends on the opponent. That is unless Sheik can manage to weave in and out of Links attacks.

Overall if Sheik and Link want to succeed at all, they will need a lot of work and practice.

6.
Follow Your Father's Example (No barrel roll jokes here) Pg.7-8
Rating:6

Spoiler

Fox: DPS Punish
Carry- 5
Stock Tank- 4
Punisher- 8
DPS- 8
Decent Offensive Support
Minor Interference Issues
Energy Projectile (DPS)

Hmmm Fox+Link? I know we can cover for you lack of speed in certain situtations, but wouldn't the projectiles get in the way sometimes? Fox's Nair not only combos into his Usmash but in teams Fox's Nair sets up a lot of 2v1 action. Fox Nair>Link Ftilt, Fox Nair>Link Utilt. Fox's punishing game increases in 2v2s and weaknesses disappear because he has a partner to stop any gayness know as shiek or pika.

Roles
I think Link and Fox would do pretty well with each other. Fox has the kill moves and Link has the stock tanking, they both have damage racking options.

General Tips
I think Fox would make a good team mate because of his incredible speed. He can come from far away and hit the opponent with an Upsmash while they're fighting Link.

He's got a reflector to reflect back Link's projectiles just in case they ever get in his way. Which they shouldn't

I think the Minor Interference Issue from how Fox is everywhere on the field with his speed. Combine this with Link's Large interference issues from his projectile game makes things hard to deal with.

Stage Picks
Both Link and Fox both have some good vertical killers so stages like Halberd might do well.

Ranking
I've only tried this team a few times, so all this is just me theory crafting. I think I give this team a 6.

Team Work Strategies
I think this team works best when they're 1v1 the opponent. I reckon Fox's down throw could Link to Link's Dair.

Possible team edge guard effort

I had a thought about a team effort with Fox and Link from the Fox match up. Someone said to never throw a rang at fox while you recover because it can screw you. Which technically could be a really good gimp move to combine without any real effort. Link tosses a rang at Fox>Fox reflects>Link Shields or dodges the return> Link hops on the ledge and prepares the Zair Edge guard. The rang keeps going possibly gimping those with lesser or crappy horizontal recoveries and if they can still make it, the ultimate edge hog is still waiting for them. Someone should test the possibility of that.

Stage Picks: Halberd as Scabe suggested. Other stages with low ceilings. Stay away from Lylat.

Also be weary of their weaknesses to chain grabs and other stuff.

I have a feeling both of these characters would have some huge trouble against a team of chain grabbers or just MK. If both of them get caught by chain grabbers at the same time, neither of them can help each other. Like a Falco and Pika team might actually spell the end of this possible combination. Falco could possibly chain grab to spike Link, overall just keep him busy while Pike just ***** Fox.

7.
The Chozen Partner Pg.8-10
Rating: 3

Spoiler

Samus: Tank DPS (projectile)
Carry- 2
Stock Tank- 7
Punisher- 4
DPS- 6
Decent Offensive Support
Good Defensive Support
Minor Interference Issues
Energy Projectile (Punish/DPS)

Samus Main Views

Hmhm, I'd say Samus and Link in teams is an average team. I've played some teams with Samus and Link at my latest smashfest this weekend, so I'll tell you how I play it.

First of all, Samus needs some space. If we can use our z-air correctly to keep the opponent away then the Link can get beasting on the other opponent. Samus' camping game is limited in teams because of the risk of hitting your teampartner. But that doesn't mean we can't play correctly, if the Samus and Link know each other well they can outplay allot of teams simply by seperating them and helping each other out when needed.

Roles (Carry, Stock Tank, DPS, Punish, and Support)
Link should play the Stock Tank, his DI is way better then Samus'. Samus should be the DPS role, her damage racking is amazingly fast.

Stage Picks
A large stage would work great for this, Final Destination or Delfino Plaza or the best.

Team Work Strategies
Seperating the opponents and killing them one by one and helping each other when it's needed. Link's bomb are great for stopping the opponents in their tracks, it's the same with Samus' z-air. Link does need to do all the killing, since Samus kill power is horrible.

General Tips
Play safe! Don't do any risky stuff, good players will ALWAYS punish you for risky stuff that didn't work.

What stages does samus do well on?
Im not too sure what link likes in his stages other than Halberd/delfino/brinstar(all of these u can kill early) but i am here to tell you that samus is good on those stages as well so fear not when u ask the samus player if those stages are ok. The only stage i recommend you dont make samus play on is YI(i dont know a single samus that LOVES that stage). Other than that im 100% positive that samus does well on every stage link does.

PERSONAL OPINION: When i team with someone, i allow THEM to pick the stage in nearly every case. I feel that if i give my partner(link in this case) the stage advantage then i wont have to worry about him as much. I of course, can adapt to any stage but YI so i dont really care what stage is chosen as long as HE is feeling good about it.

What role does Samus play in teams?
Samus is famous for not being able to kill.....accept it. However, she is a BEAST at racking up damage. Link cant really rack up damage but he can kill much better than samus can. THAT is what you need to realize before you go into your first match. Let samus build damage and then switch off so that link can come in and kill. When i teamed with legan that exactly what happened and i didnt even know it till later on. He would land kill moves left and right cause i built up so much damage. I also believe that samus should also play the role of "savior" and when i say this i MEAN IT. If link is not going to make it back to the stage samus can fire off a lock-on missle to hit link so he gets his UP+B back or samus can just run off and up+B link back to the stage. It does damage but has next to ZERO horizontal knockback so link will be going straight up. One last thing, SAMUS should be the "tank" of the team. Believe it or not, samus is like 7th heaviest in the game so combine that with good DI and she will live forever. i say she needs to be the tank because LINK is the killing machine of the team and if he can take one of your stocks that means u gave up a stock so that he can kill MORE...GOOD MOVE!

PERSONAL OPINION: Samus should stay near the ledge while link should take up the middle. I say this because link is SAFE-EST when he doesnt have to worry about being gimped and Samus is at her best when she plays off the ledge and she is BY FAR one of the best gimpers in the game.

Team Combos
These combos guarantee death after 100% or give obscene damage to the foe if they are below 100%. The key to team combos. Get as much damage in as u can without taking alot of time.

Samus SPIKE to Link jab-lock to Link SMASH(Dsmash of Fsmash) or Dair.
Grab(pummel) or grab release with samus and have link Dair it.
Grab(pummel) or grab release with link and have samus FULLY CS(charge shot does 26%).

Overall Samus and Link don't make a very good team. Both characters do their best when they space correctly. Its much harder to do in a doubles match then a singles match with 4 people running around. In addition to that, there will probably be a lot of projectile interference. For this team to succeed, much practice would be required.

Stage Picks:
Aside from large stages, Halberd and Brinstar would be good choices. Lots of space or low ceilings for early kills.

8.
The Original Player Two Pg.10-11
Rating: 5

Spoiler

Luigi: Punish
Carry- 4
Stock Tank- 6
Punisher- 9
DPS- 8
Energy Projectile (Punish/DPS)

Seems like another average team up for Link. Not really good but also not really bad. Its hard to say if this team up would be better or worse then with Toon Link without some real testing. I ended up rating it at 5 while someone went as high as 7 or as low as 3.

The main issue with this team is that they can't help each other's recoveries. Both of them do pretty porly vs MK as well (but not terrible). Luigi can help with the Falco/Diddy's of teams and Link can help Luigi approach as said with projectiles. In general they play off of each others' weaknesses.

Link can force an approach, Luigi kills like a madman.
+ Both characters are terrific at DI
+ Link can help Luigi approach/ "combo"
+ Luigi helps with the Falco/Diddy/D3 matchups, a LOT.
+ Both characters do well vs MK when they can force MK to approach, teams force MK to approach in general.
+- It isn't a common team, people won't have experience vs it
- Recovery.
- Is it the best Link teammate, probably not
- It is one low tier, one mid-high tier, no tierwhoring for money,

Out of 10, I give it a 7.5 Lean more towards a 7 if the opponents have actually faced a good link team, more towards and 8 if they have not.

Ok, imo, I think this team is not good cuz you ain't guys have trouble when u guys fight up-close? Link and Luigi's recoveries are very predictable, easy to edgeguard Link's recovery, eh I hate to say that. Link can get juggled easily by a lot of characters. Luigi and Link is very gud @ DI, Link should be the tank stock of the team. Link helps out Luigi in approaching while Luigi helps Link in close range combat. The best stages for this team is mostly neutrals cuz Link totally needs his space to zair and use his projectiles. Link has a lot of trouble w/ his match-ups in doubles cuz they can take advantage of pressuring him, juggling him, and edgeguarding him which gives him no option to do anything @ all. Luigi and Link can't support each other. I give this team a 3.5/10

Some things in common with most thoughts is that Luigi will be doing most of the fighting while Link will be supporting. Luigi can just tear people apart when he gets close, however he may have some trouble getting up close. This is where Link comes in with his projectiles to either help Luigi approach, or force the other team to approach. Either way helping Luigi greatly in his effort to get in close.

Though it is true that Luigi will have no means of helping Link recover as none of his aerials will actually send Link straight up, aside from Nair. Though it would probably put Luigi in a bad spot with its long duration. Link can help Luigi recover, though usually it wont be all that helpful, especially if he interferes at the wrong time and actually makes Luigi's recovery worse. All in all bombs is the only really help.

Though as a team, i do think they have some potential in general. If Link can work in jab locks or arrow locks as much as possible and then Luigi can just run around and fire punch everyone to death at a relatively early percent. Though the same could be done with a grab by pretty much anyone. But this way there is a little more mobility as well as the ability to just have Link do something as well.

With all that being said. I think Luigi could be decent. Definitely better then Link, Ganon, and Sheik. He may be around the same range as Toon Link without as much projectile interference and Luigi has better off stage gimping potential then TL. I would rate this as an average team, roughly 4-5.[/QOUTE]
A possible combo being Luigi's Nair>Link's Dair. But overall, it seems like Link has to try his best to throw people off balance enough that Luigi can sneak in some Fire punches for some early kills.

Stage Pick wise:
Luigi Mains opinion: Though it is weird that he based it all on Link which is really not what we needed... Anyway.

Mostly the neutral stages, Pictochat and Delfino.

FD - This is where Link can try to dominate his opponents w/ his zair and spacing, it's the best pick for Link. It's good to bring opponents who does not have projectile.

BF - Link players can abuse up-smash or DAC and up-air below platforms. I need more input on BF for Link.

YI - This stage can be a problem b/c of the platform and shy guys. Link seems good on this stage due to his DI and surviving ability. Link survives more on YI than FD b/c of large blastzones.

I'll talk about Pictochat, Delfino, and SV a lil later on.

Seems like Large stages, anything to push Link's survival ability as a stock tank and to make use of his camping capabilities. Also giving Luigi some space do work when needed. Though idk if i agree with BF as many Links seem to have trouble there. But if it was me i would go with BF just since Luigi could probably take advantage of it and Link could stay below the platforms to protect him from aerial assaults. BF also has the low platforms that can allow the Utilt into shielded opponents into Jab lock if they aren't careful.

Once again overall average team for Link. Luigi fight all around but also handles off stage, Link support with projectiles, forces approaches, and helps Luigi land some killing blows. Link should look for any sort of jab/arrow lock opportunities to allow Luigi the early kills he likes. With some work this team should be pretty good.

9.
Hammer Number 9 Pg.11-12
Rating: 9

Spoiler

Mr. Game & Watch: Punish Gimmick
Carry- 7
Stock Tank- 8
Punisher- 10*** (just pretend this is a 9 Zac )
DPS- 8
Good Offensive Support
Great Defensive Support
Absorber (Offensive)


As a Carry ... GnW isn't necessarily "the best" but looking at the scenario from an alternative viewpoint would tell you that doesn't matter- he kills his opponents BEFORE a clutch or lose situation is forced upon him, he's that good!

Stock Tanking as GnW can be retardedly easy (he's one of the best plankers in the game... ugh) and he's got a very difficult to punish moveset (not to mention 1 whiff of a kill move can mean a lost stock anywhere near 80% for GnW's foes!) AND he has the best bucket brake in the game! ... or it can be pretty **** difficult if your opponent has very good vertical kill moves and their partner gets a grab off on you.

Punish Moves:
•C-stick
•Touch your controller

For DPS, GnW has a plethora of moves that when connected just once, do about 15% on average (**** you Gaymanwatch,) some pretty reliable damage strings, as well as a tech-chase CG that allows for some doubles tomfoolery to ensue!

G&W's Gimmick is, of course, the bucket. 3 charges of moderately strong projectiles and you've got yourself the scariest, least punishable kill move in the game.

*** Judgment, usmash, fsmash, dsmash, freaking everything GnW has, kills. He is without a doubt the best punishing character in doubles, and it's no wonder he's regarded as one of the top doubles characters.

It is said that G&W is the best doubles character period. He has a lot of nice little gimmicks. His recovery, Uair, and bucket along with all of his strong smashes. So its safe to assume that he might be Links best doubles partner.

Thoughts on the team from both sides:

I team with a Link sometimes on Wifi. Team ain't bad, for GW there's better partners but for Link I seem to help out a lot. Uairing Link is an obvious one, not only for recovery but giving him an extra boost for chasing opponents with his uair, or keeping him in the air to avoid Dair lag. GW can actually duck under Link's Grab which makes for some cool stuff. GW has good aerial mobility to avoid projectiles and Dtilt is really good for keeping the edge clear for link to recover. As far as offense, it's a lot easier for me to kill than him and since link is campy I never worry much about accidentally smashing him, he's never in the way. And GW can use bombs for Glidetossing>Smashes, granted it's hard to pull off in doubles but just saying. I only play with him occasionally I usually play against him though so that's all I got.

I think this team would work very well. Game and Watch imo could be one of Link's best partners. I haven't tried this team though.

I imagine getting through Link's interference issues would be easy for Game and Watch.

Roles
Link's should be agro and try and deal as much damage as you can with his long range projectiles and moves. Once the opponents closes in GaW can cover and help reset the situation. This team shouldn't have trouble killing.

Stage Picks
I'm not too sure what are some good GaW stages. Link like's big stages.

Team Work Strategies
You could do some gimmicky things like hovering with Link's Dair with Game and Watch's Up air underneath you.

General Tips

Ranking
7/10

PS1 seems Like the perfect stage for this team, good size, platforms, border size, and it doesn't limit either character or present team attack risks. G&W has wicked air priority and good movement options, Link has good range attack stage control and can avoid edges and work with the changing terrain.
Halberd might be good if G&W doesn't die too soon?

Both characters can setup great team combos.
G&W Dthrow- Link can Dsmash if G&W misjudges a teck chase. Link Zair/Bair or G&W Bair turtle> partner smashes or Link Dairs. G&W Dtilt> whatever. One partner jabs the other punishes the opponent's DI (note, Link can Fsmash through G&W's short jab reach so Dsmash/Utilt is safer). There's a lot of things.

I suggest G&W move around a lot and Link more or less hold his ground. G&W's fast enough to react and punish and Link's slow but with good range on every attack. Link can't adapt to G&W's situations fast enough, G&W can with Link.

To momentum cancel, this is good for most teams, don't Dair use Bair. Dair can easily kill G&W with a team attack. Dsmash and Utilt are always great Link moves in teams.

I rank this team 10/10 as far as Link teams go. G&W is his best partner. Keep in mind I'm saying that without experience with every character.

Teamwork in general for this team is quite great. G&W can save Link with both Up special and Uair. Though unfortunately they cant take advantage of the bucket in this team, as Link has no energy attacks. But with G&W's Dthrow there could be a lot shenanigans with both of their powerful smashes and kill moves. Also both characters have either great DI or in G&W bucket breaking, so they both can be really good stock tanks. G&W should be doing most of the approaching while Link supports with projectiles.

For stages, it would probably be best to use whatever stage Link can work best on. Which can be found through this post. But most likely either large stages for camping or something like Brinstar that helps Link recover.

Overall G&W might be the best partner and is currently ranked a 9 just incase there is possibly a better partner. Unlikely but possible. But for all other purposes hes a 10.

10.
Simply Stunning Pg.13-14
Rating: 7

Spoiler

Zero Suit Samus: DPS Gimmick
Carry- 6
Stock Tank- 6
Punisher- 6
DPS- 9
Amazing Offensive Support
Decent Defensive Support
Energy Projectile (Punish/DPS)

ZSS, who arguably has the best energy projectile (her dsmash for those of you who are unaware) is of course, an amazing teammate for characters who can abuse said attack. GnW, Lucas, and Ness can all abuse the dsmash to swing entire matches in their favor, so she's always a favorite to team with for those characters.

Overall a decent team for Link, but it was found that Link may have a hard time finding a ZSS who would be willing to team with Link as she is good and he is not.

This team in a nutshell.

ZSS will be able to do almost everything for Link except KO. But that just means Link can use ftilt, fsmash1, dsmash, etc. to take care of that. So while ZSS covers the DPS, and probably stock tanking, too, Link can jump in with the KO power. All things considered however, ZSS can find KO power in any number of teammates that she won't likely find herself having to babysit.

In other words, ZSS is a 10, and Link is a 5.

Thoughts on the team itself.

Uhm right from the get go i would give this team a 6 overall. Yes, ZSS is possible on of Link's best teammate but if you take into the fact of tournament viablility this team would fit perfectly into the "Not too shabby" part. It is a little above average since Link's power combined with something that can help him use them more is great. The Gale boomerang can be used greatly to help ZSS' air game. Also a thing about Link is he can camp and help keep ZSS' pieces alive while she goes out on a ramage with some camping support. With the right babysitting Link can actually be a pretty dag on good stock tank for ZSS. Combined their ground game is pretty sweet with the setups they can do. ZSS is a great DPS and gets them in killing % for Link easily but since his smashes are laggy he'll need help being able to use them at oppurtune moments. Dsmash helps wonders for this. Now Link mostly should be camping/stock tanking the entire match and ZSS should be doing most of the action while keeping an eye on Link. Sad to say but ZSS will be the heroine of this team while Link is the sidekick. I'd say this team needs to look out for Meta knight and Falco. Stages BRINSTAR IS AMAZING FOR THIS TEAM!!!! haha sorry I <3 Brinstar waaay too much. But I know it's one of Link's best stages and it is the same with ZSS. Link can camp here and it is air heaven for her. Uhm SV, FD, and I wanna say Norfair as well are also good stages. Stay away from stages that are like RC, GrGs, YI, and I also wanna say Delfino (;s)

This team is perfectly put as a 6 for tournament terms but if you are talking how good ZSS is for Link it's probably like a 9-10. However you might not be placing last with this team and might be an upset team overall ;O. It's not too bad.

Zss should be following the characters in the air for early uair kills or juggling while link stays on the ground making a wall for others

I friendlied with a link before in doubles and we set up a forward b (links) and I jumped over then I had a moving dsmash =D (Dsmash can combo into 28%+ guaranteed since it kills)

When both characters are recovering I recommence to go straight for it as zss has enough tools to get back on stage but leave the edge open as soon as you can (even if you eat a punishment)

Great offensive and defensive support. Very minor interference with her plasma shot. Link plays the stock tank here and the KO-king while ZSS goes around dealing great damage to anybody even remotely around her. Keep in mind that while she may not have as many KO moves as Link, the ones she does have are very effective, with great priority and a good-sized hitbox.

If ZSS gets into trouble, Link can help by walling off the opponents with his projectiles. Although ZSS won't get into trouble and, even if she does, she won't really need rescuing. As with most of Link's teammates, she'll be doing the babysitting when (or if) needed. Getting back to the stage will be easier for ZSS than Link (who knew?) and if the Hero of Time gets into trouble recovering, a good U-air to his butt might help him 'recover high' (hyuk hyuk).

As stated many times Link and ZSS could potentially be very good. With ZSS charging in doing tons of damage while Link supports her with projectiles and holding on to 1 or 2 pieces of armor using all of his advance bomb juggling techniques. When its time to go for a kill a simple stun from Dsmash or Neutral special could easily connect into Links Dair or ZSS Bair, but be sure to know whos going in for the kill or you may end up causing a lot of trouble for each other and possible deaths of ZSS.

I'm terms of recovering, ZSS should be fine, but you may want to prevent edge hogs as much as possible (her only real weakness). While ZSS can easily support Links recovery with a simple Uair, but she has to be careful to not put herself in danger while doing so. If both are knocked off ZSS should try recovering first as she would be faster. However if Link is really close it would be best to let him try and then use your jump and down B to stall while he gets up.

Stage Picks: Basically anything good for Link once again. Though stay away from stages with no ledges. Like FO. YI might be good as ZSS can abuse her wall jumps and be rather safe using Down B toward the stage.
Overall: 7-8, much better then those in the 6 rating, but leaving it at 7 for now until more characters are done.

11.
PK Lover Pg.14-15
Rating: 5

Spoiler

From the Lucas thread on Lucas himself.

Lucas: Punish Tank Gimmick
Carry- 2
Stock Tank- 6/9
Punisher- 9
DPS- 7
Great Offensive Support
Good Defensive Support
Moderate Interference Issues
Absorber
Energy Projectile (Punish/DPS)

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=260661

This is what is shown about Lucas in Dekar’s great Team thread that is a really good read to learning how to play teams effectively.
Lucas overall is a 7 out of 10. He is a great team player with great punishing options. However when Lucas has the right partner that can help him be the great stock tank he can be then he gets a solid 9 out of 10. He is one of the best teammates in brawl. Healing is a great aspect that only him and Ness share and his punishing options with his many recovery options make him a good teammate overall.

Now to summarize Lucas in teams here is a list of key items for any character as to how they do in teams:

What is lucas's role in a team?

What should lucas be doing at any given time?

Does lucas have a easy time with any of the following roles:
1. surviving forever
2. killing
3. splitting opponents up
4. 2v1 combat
5. his role in 1v2
6. attacking opponents who are engaging your teammate to open them up
7. racking damage without leaving himself open to the other player

Breaking down Lucas with each question is how it goes from here:

What is Lucas’ role in teams?

As said in Dekar’s thread Lucas is a great Punisher and Stock tank. He can kill really well also with his healing aspect he can shine as a stock tank. This stock tank quality, however, only applies to certain characters that have the ability to heal him. With his powerful smashes Lucas can kill his opponents a lot easier since his teammate can help rack damage, however, unlike another character that has this power (GW) Lucas has severe cool down issues with his smash attacks. His ground game is great as we know but his air game is what he lacks. Lucas needs someone who can help him eliminate some of his weaknesses and also help raise his strengths greatly.

What should Lucas be doing at any given time?

Lucas, if having the right partner allows him to do so, must be abusing his PSI Magnet. With this he can keep stocks, which in teams is very important. Lucas should also be trying to look for set-ups in which he can really shine and contribute to helping his partner out. Lucas can also rack up damage quite well so this is another plus he should be doing. However his main priority should always be trying to keep stocks and looking for ways to punish.

Does Lucas have an easy time with any of the following?

1.) Surviving forever – With the right partner, Yes. Otherwise he is above average. *most strongest asset with the right partner*

+ = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLzOjGRCuA8&playnext_from=TL&videos=AKBUSRJ_8lc

/\This vid is a great example of how well Lucas can stock tank especially with the right partner on the right stage/\

2.) Killing – Yes, early smashes, great ground game, setups. Lucas’ second strongest point in teams. *first strongest if you don't have the right partner :V*

3.) Splitting opponents up – Not an easy time but can do pretty decently.

4.) 2v1 combat – Yes, Because Lucas can help set up and with his teammate helping to set up moves to his early killing smashes he does have an easy time with this however he needs a partner that can help keep the opponent away from him. Also in 2v1 Lucas and his partner can heal alot easier now so keeping stocks is easier.

5.) His role in 1v2 – No, this is an important necessity for teams and sadly Lucas lacks in the department.

6.) Attacking opponents who are engaging your opponents to open them up – Yes, With Lucas’ projectiles he can accomplish this however not as easy as Ness.

7.) Racking damage without leaving himself open to the other player – No, his smashes have a lot of cool down and his air game does not have priority over most air based moves.


This is rPSI's take on Lucas in teams and who would be good partners to aid him in this.

Lucas' greatest strengths are his ability to kill pretty early compared to others (sort of like Gdubs), but unlike Gdubs, he has A LOT of cool down on his smashes. If he's going to be the punisher in doubles, he's going to need a good set-up. The people that first come to mind are:
MK D-throw
Snake D-throw
Falco D-throw
DDD D-throw
Gdubs D-throw
ZSS D-smash
Marth's throws
Pika F/D Throw

Another great strength of Lucas is his vertical spacing. However, Lucas generally lacks safe horizontal spacing. People that come in mind that are good at it are
MK
Snake
ZSS
ROB
Marth
DK

Next we need someone who can really capitalize Lucas' n-air. People who really can help include.
MK
ZSS
Gdubs
Pika
etc.

Now we all know that Lucas has a great ground game, but a lot of his aerials are just flat out beat by other things such as DDD b-air. Lucas would prefer someone great in the air.
MK
ZSS
Gdubs
Pika
Wario
Marth
Lucario
Ness

Lucas also has the ability to stock tank extremely well given his partner. The best ones include:
Lucario
ZSS
Pikachu
Ness

This is a basic Break-down of how Lucas is himself in teams thanks to the Lucas mains of the Lucas boards. Overall Lucas is great in teams but he has to be abusing that PSI Magnet like it is no tomorrow. Great partner.

It seems like Lucas has the potential to be an utterly broken teammate for some character. Unfortunately Link + Lucas isn't one of those teams. Lucas cant absorb anything Link does, thus all of Lucas' tanking options are pretty much gone.

A problem is Link can't rescue Lucas (L) besides bombs and L is super vulnerable when rescuing Link off stage; both characters are easy to gimp. Both characters are also at high risk from friendly fire; teammates will need strategy and practice. Link can't heal L either.
On the plus side, this team has power. L's smashes, particularly Usmash are big and broken. Link has several hard hitting big moves too. I see this as a 'kill or be killed' team.
Brinstar or Halberd helps stop gimps and cater to this team's huge star KO potential.

Also suggests that there really isn't much Link and Lucas can do to support each other when knocked off stage. Aside from Link's bombs. But Jbandit's thoughts are:

Now saving each other. Lucas can save Link alooooooooooooot easier than he can save him. DO NOT TRY AND SAVE LUCAS WITH THE BOOMERANG! It just messes with PKT2 recovery or can mess with trying to Zapjump. Try and throw a bomb most likely. Lucas can save Link with PKT but it is true that he isn't put in the best position while doing so. It is kindof nightmare situation when either Lucas or Link is offstage and the other is by themself in a 1v2 situation.

However, this team isn't all that bad. Both have really strong killing moves, as well as they can both utilize jab locks as well. It maybe something the team may want to focus on getting to rack up damage.

There are seemingly 2 ways this team could function. With Lucas in the fray with Link supporting with projectiles. Which seems like a decent idea. Or Link in the fray and Lucas supporting with his projectiles, which seems much better. Lucas has 3 decent projectiles to throw in. He can throw in some wave bounced PK fire. If Link can keep them really busy, a nice fully charged PK freeze. But what is possibly most deadly is the PKT2. If the team can really communicate when Lucas is going to try something. It could be quite deadly. Not to mention Lucas can also run in with a Usmash at a moments notice.

Stage Picks:
As stated earlier. Brinstar would help prevent gimping and failed recoveries over all. And halberd would allow for earlier star KO's. However, if legal, Norfair would be the best stage of all. Both characters have the whiplash recovery option and lava would help save them both.

12.
Shake It! Pg.15-16
~:~

13.
Fight or Flight Pg.16
~:~

Link’s Teammate Tier List
S:
A:
B:
C:
D:
E:
F:
G:

Continued on next post...

 

[Ryos4]

Current Discussion:

Videos:
AfroTwist_BlueBerryPie (Link) Gardex (GnW) vs Cenel (MK) gUvano (ROB) 1/29/10
AfroTwist_BlueBerryPie (Link) Gardex (GnW) vs Chiiiiiiiii (MK) KiyoRsu (Marth) 3/29/10 1/2
AfroTwist_BlueBerryPie (Link) Gardex (GnW) vs Chiiiiiiiii (MK) KiyoRsu (Marth) 3/29/10 2/2

ALSM (Link) + Denti (Olimar) vs. UTDZac (G&W) + Fogo (Snake) 1 & 2 (5/27)
ALSM (Link) + Denti (Olimar) vs. UTDZac (G&W) + Fogo (Snake) 3 (5/27)
ALSM (Link) + Batou (C. Falcon) vs. Xyro (Samus) + Ultimate Razer (Jigglypuff) 1 (5/12)
ALSM (Link) + Batou (C. Falcon) vs. Xyro (Samus) + Ultimate Razer (Jigglypuff) 2 (5/12)

Deva (Link) Chip(TL) vs Sagemoon (Pit) Jem(MK) 1/20/09 1/4
Deva (Link) Chip(TL) vs Sagemoon (Pit) Jem(MK) 1/20/09 2/4
Deva (Link) Chip(TL) vs Sagemoon (Pit) Jem(MK) 1/20/09 3/4
Deva (Link) Chip(TL) vs Sagemoon (Pit) Jem(MK) 1/20/09 4/4
Deva (Link) Chip(TL) VS. t!mmy (Kirby) & t0mmy(ROB) 1/28/09

Kief (Link) Ugg (Ike) vs Ray Kalm (Link) Yoh (Samus) - 11/05/09
Kief (Link) Ugg (Ike) vs FAE (Ness) Mellow (Lucas) - 11/05/09

Scabe (Link) Silfa (DK) vs Summoner (Kirby) Melancholy (GW) 1/31/10
Scabe (Link) Silfa (ROB) vs Tedeth (Wario) Atyeo (Snake) 5/9/10 2/3*
Scabe (Link) Silfa (DK) vs Tedeth (Wolf) Atyeo (Snake) 5/9/10 3/3*
Scabe (Link) Meteor Master (Ness) vs Ledge (MK) Condog (Kirby) 6/9/10*
Scabe (Link) Meteor Master (DDD) vs Attila (Snake) Tibs (Diddy) 6/9/10 1/2*
Scabe (Link) Meteor Master (DDD) vs Attila (Snake) Tibs (Diddy) 6/9/10 2/2*
Scabe (Link) + Throwback (Samus) vs Liam (MK) + Toby (Marth) 7/05/10
(Link) + Throwback (Samus) vs Zxv (Peach) Meteor Master (Ness) 7/05/10


Xyro (Samus) Ultimate Razer (Jigglypuff) vs. ALSM (Link) Batou (C. Falcon) 5/8/10*
Xyro (Samus) Ultimate Razer (Jigglypuff) vs. ALSM (Link) Batou (C. Falcon) 5/8/10*
Zane (Link) ALSM (Link) vs Srsc@ (R.O.B.) Infinity (Diddy) 4/14/10



|Update Bank|
5/13 - Thread created =P
5/15 - Rule 7 for discussion template added because ~Pink Fresh~ reminded me about it
6/14 – Negi’s Take Over (Muahahahahaha)
6/15 - Link, Toon Link, and Ganon summary added
6/16 - Double Link updated along with some minor changes on TL
6/19 - Zelda done and moving on to Sheik
6/22 - Sheiks up, Tons of matches added, as well as minor changes overall
6/23 - Fox next discussion
6/28 - Fox summary added, moving on to Samus
7/05 - Samus finished, Luigi's next. Moved stuff around to make space in the OP because it takes forever to edit
8/01 - Forgot to post a bunch of updates, but on to Lucas now, ZSS summary coming soon
8/16 - Lucas summary finally up

 

[Scabe]

Wow this is amazing! And that picture of Link is soo good.

Apart from all the love, I'll contribute something later!

 

[Rizen]

I teamed with a TLink at a tourney where we met. Link's ground/Short hop game paired with TLink's air spam was killer and we had no practice what-so-ever. Spacing is the key: Don't be too close to your partner or too far and try to cover each other's weak areas. Link likes to be low with big laggy attacks. Zair a great distraction for combos and range spam is much less important than in 1 vs 1s. SH arrows travel pretty far and can help your partner from the other side of a stage.
Attack with big moves ofter (Dsmash/Fair/Dair/Fsmash/Ftilt etc) in ways that force the opponents to be in a bad situation. Don't hit your partner; maintaining spacing is very important.

 

[Ryos4]

To be honest idk how anyone plays as Link in a doubles match successfully. His lack of speed makes it hard for me to keep up with 2 enemies running around. Let alone some of the partners out there who don't control their spacing and hit you almost as much as enemies. Anyway...

Can someone describe his most likely role in a team?
Like, Would Link be considered the damage racker? or the Finisher? Obviously link isnt a stock tank.

Though from my experience, i think link matches fairly well with Pit. Both can cover each other with projectiles. Pit does well in the air and is fairly quick. He can take care of off stage gimping, which i just dont feel safe doing as link. I also think pit help Link recover. With either his dair to send Link up, an arrow to refresh his up special, or just letting Link footstool him to get height. Since Pits recovery is so awesome, he wouldn't be put in too much danger. I also find Pit to be a decent stock tank, being able to survive into 180%+ with good DI.

I also support the Link and TL team. Good team.

 

[PK-ow!]

Link: Finisher, support. He supports by changing the game with his projectiles, being intrusive with them and his normals.


Your teammate, certainly, has to be someone who can handle having more than one share of attention, as one of Link's main abilities is to discourage harassment. Link doesn't want to have people on him at all, so the ally has to deal with being supported from afar by Link.

Yes, it's high reward with gimps - why Link can't tank - but anything he defends himself with is high damaging and very disruptive.


Aside:
You could ask for him the teammate to be really deadly and decisive in a 1v1, to throw a combatant off him and come over to double-team whoever goes for you, but that's not a card you can play. Short of just teaming with MK, we can't talk about that kind of thing in this discussion, which is more like a matchup discussion than a tier discussion because it has to do with interactions, am I right?
You might, though, get more specific and say "Marth, has high-knockback moves where, if he spaces and gets one hit / predicts, he gives himself a breather to work with, AND, by his nature, forces a certain hesitancy mixup IF he were to continue to engage that opponent." This means Marth, perhaps uniquely (when you add his general agility), can be called on to handle himself singly, or switch targets somewhat easily.

End of aside



You both want to play somewhat self-reliantly; your goal is to create large imbalances in damage ASAP (for your every-move-KOs arsenal to dispatch things easily), your strategy being to totally control the game (fighting without being fought), while your limiting factor is you can't venture too far from center stage, and you can be frame trapped.


It is always an obvious proposition, in 2v2, that a teammate could shore up Link's vulnerability, but I submit that this effort is not the optimal course. If you as Link can't stop being gimped, you are not repping a strong Link, I think we know that. I think that, for a combination of other reasons specific to Link, it will just be fighting uphill more, to have a teammate cover for you, than to play more independently.
You've got to, at least on this point, take care of yourself and let the teammate work his own business.
That is, have the teammate not expect anything from you, but capitalize on it when it comes; while you rely on the fact, that he will be playing his game based on what's reasonable ignoring your presence, to do your projectile business to the greatest effect.


So meanwhile, Link *does* have dazzling support options himself. Gale Boomerang is Gale Boomerang, it's pretty much impossible to list what you can do with intentional miscatches. Link's Arrow is the fastest projectile after laser beams; you can situationally interrupt K.O. moves with it. And Link's Bombs are Link's Bombs, still his most valuable special. ZAir can serve to harass in a pinch.


So, if we assume that the ally will be playing their game and not helping you, but you want to use them to the best of Link's ability, what sort of game is that?
A damage racker, I think is the only one. An aerially mobile damage racker. Game & Watch, Fox, Pikachu, it appears Toon Link. I think being small is also important, so Link can avoid friendly fire. It's for this reason, I fear, that an otherwise worthy Marth mate droops in appeal.

I'm less familiar with these characters, but I suppose Squirtle, Diddy Kong, and Jigglypuff fit too, though JP is limited just in tier level. I would love to see a practiced Link + Diddy team that uses Bananas. Sweet Jesus, can you imagine the ****.


Plus, because Link's attacks are so strong, he can very frequently put opponents offstage. It's just he doesn't guard exceptionally; so if your teammate has some offstage, or can gimp, that's a big plus. This is, aha, Game & Watch, Pikachu... and Fox can "gimp" launchers with his Uair, or BAir.


*~*~*~

I think it comes more difficult for projectile characters to control a match beside each other, so I wouldn't put TL myself any easier than I would Samus. Only because I know TL has a strong melee game, I can see it. I suppose Link can take the place of TL's projectiles entirely, and the two's similarity fills in for team practice.


Link wants the opponent to be getting dirty all up in the opponent's face, because he certainly doesn't have the reliability to be doing that, but also, he suddenly jumps in utility when the enemy is thus distracted. That's why I wouldn't say he's nice with Pit. A Pit getting up in enemy business should be punished at some point, and this stalls Link, too, because of the friendly fire problem. Pit is only average in speed in the air or ground, so friendly fire is a big cost from Link. I'd expect better from, say, Mario.



ALL THAT SAID, I think you could go an entirely different route, with Donkey Kong specifically. A huge, huge, powerhouse tank, that Link can spot for - basically, serve up targets for.
It's theorycraft, I just have a hunch. Jab combo to Fsmash? Giant Punch super armor combo with a Link smash?
Link devotes himself *solely* to deploying DK. Helping him land, forcing approaches and movement, luring, whatever it takes to chain DK's moves without downtime, and stop people from juggling him. Only DK has the raw threat level to count for this. Like, Bowser is there, but Bowser sucks.
{flame shield}


And now, retrospectively, I think a factor I was considering was the character's ability to reactively fight on disadvantage. I mean, you know how when Marth, or Sheik, or characters like that are off-point, they sort of have to go full defensive, and must regain their momentum with movement options only? Link doesn't like those people.

Let Link take the role of steamrolling opponents on the backstep. In exchange for losing that reward, have your teammate be one of the chars that has less blindspots and risks.

 

[#HBC | J]

Wow this is such great input o_o

Here is something a list of questions that should be answered to determine some things.

What is your main's role in a team?

What should your main be doing at any given time?

Does your main have a easy time with any of the following roles:
1. surviving forever
2. killing
3. splitting opponents up
4. 2v1 combat
5. his role in 1v2
6. attacking opponents who are engaging your teammate to open them up
7. racking damage without leaving himself open to the other player

Levitas is too good =P

 

[Rizen]

Link can be good in all 7 categories with the limitations of being slow, low jumps, poor mobility, and having to stay on stage. It's all about spacing with your partner. Some characters are better than others to partner with.
1 If he's not gimped Link will live forever; the partner needs to assist Link when he's sideways off stage.
2 Dair is awesome in a confused battle and when recovering down, it's 51 frames of high priority attack are easy to hit opponents who were launch by your partner. Fsmash has huge range and the optional second cut, good when your partner's in the air. Dsmash attacks fast and on both sides; also good when the partner's in the air. Ftilt bad lag but big swing one direction. Utilt can KO with good vertical reach. Uair long attack period good for juggling. Fair/Nair can KO and landing cancel into other KO moves.
3 Bombs. Boomerang. Zair>landing combo. On occasion dash attack and Bair>landing combo.
4 (2 opponents vs Link?) Zair and retreating SH spam. Holding a bomb helps to land KO moves. Don't get grabbed, it's like every opponent can chain grab like Ice climbers.
5 Link should attack in advance to force the opponent off balance even if the attacks don't hit. Jabs and Zair are good stun/distraction moves. When the opponent's on one side of the stage: SH arrows if your partner is going for a ground assault. Charged arrows to punish landings from far away if your partner's good in the air.
Link can't partner chain grab back and forth so be ready with a Dair when your partner throws. Link shouldn't grab.
6 SH arrows, charged arrows from a distance, and Zair. Bombs if you've got one.
7 Spam and Zair. Don't neglect Link's jab cancels either.

 

[luke_atyeo]

your right, link isnt really a stock tank unless your name is scabe, in which case you CANNOT kill him below 160% with anything.

 

[Scabe]

Really good contributions so far. Keep it up!

Doubles is probably my favorite thing to do. It's a shame that Link isn't the greatest team partner, not only that I'm not much of a team player.

I use to place pretty well with my doubles team: "The Hyrule Kings Of Swing" = Scabe (Link) + Silfa (DK).

But ever since a tournament where we got dominated by MK's and didn't win a single match, we've been thinking over what to do with our team.

Anyways I'll start of with just talking about Link.

Pros:

• Good at living to high percents provided that he doesn't get gimped.
• He's got some reliable kill moves that kill around 120
• Projectiles are good for damage racking.

Cons:

• Slow and somewhat a big character
• Projectiles get in the way and hit your ally
• Bad recovery
• Low tier character with many bad matchup

Link: Tank DPS (projectile)
Carry- 1
Stock Tank- 7
Punisher- 6
DPS- 6
Decent Offensive Support
Large Interference Issues

Overall Link doesn't look too bad as a team partner. He's got some decent stats, his biggest weakness are that he can't carry a team to victory and that he has large interference issues.

I think that Link would work best with a characters who any characer who can carry and punish:
Marth, Lucario

But in general look for Punishers, Assist and characters with good defensive support (to help his recovery) and try to avoid characters that have any interference issues since Link is already a big interference issue:
MK (Carry/Assist)
Wario (Tank/Punish)
Kirby (Punish)
Game and Watch (Punish)
Ike (Punish)
Luigi (Punish)
Bowser (Tank requires baby sitting though/Punish)
Jigglypuff! <3 (Punish/assist)

Carry:
Link isn't a character you can to rely on as it's main source of achieving victory. He has many bad matchups.

Stock Tank:
Link regularly lives above 150+ with his amazing momentum cancel. If only his recovery wasn't so bad, its easily gimped which takes away alot of this living potential.

Punisher:
His best kill move is Dair, it has great vertical knockback and kills early at around 100%, find ways to use this move in teams.

Apart from Dair, he's got many other decent kill moves such as Fsmashes, Dsmash, Up B, second hit of fair and others like Ftilt, Uptilt, Up air,

DPS:
His projectiles are good for dealing slow chip damage. Bombs are good for combos such as Full Hop > Bomb Throw Down > Fair/Nair.

Decent Offensive Support:
I don't really know what this means but I'll take a guess. Zair would be a great support when your partner is fighting the opponent while your on the other side of the opponent.

Dealing with Link's Large interference:
It's a big learning curve teaming with Link since he's got projectiles flying everywhere. Your partner will have to learn how to get around your projectile spam, and you will have to spam in a way that is easy for your partner to deal with.

Give yourself some limitations such as:

• Don't spam in the direction of your partner.
• Full hop and throw bombs down

General Tips:

• Keep an eye on the whole screen and watch every character is.
• A team that works together will do much better than a team that does 1v1.
• If the oppurtinity arrives where you can 2v1 an opponent always take it.
• Play to your character strengths

Link Tips:

• Up B out of shield could be a good way to clear some space for Link.

Combos:

• Find ways to land Link's Dair, the higher and less DI'd the throw is the easier it is to land his Dair.
• Find team combos with Link's full hop bomb throw down. Think of the possibilities!
• Link's down throw may have a good set up to an aerial hit from your team mate. This is only a guess coz usually it's easily DI'd. Most of his throws are easily DI'd. Just experiment what you can do with them.

Videos:

Scabe
Link + DK: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5E1xgWLFkLE
Link + ROB: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rWMdRqQFBo

Kirin + WIll: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ba02LQZBRcM

 

[Rizen]

Link has been described as the gravity master. He falls fast, is heavy, has low jumps, great SH and full jump spam, good landing canceling attacks and combos (Zair/Fair/Bair/Nair), and is extremely hard to star KO. All these support Link being near the ground in teams; someone who dominates the air would be the ideal partner- Luigi/TLink and so on.

In teams Links weaknesses of being chaingrabed and gimped are softened by your partner. This lets Link fight with his sword and Zair more freely.
Zair is fast and piercing-it won't be stopped when it hits something/someone like range attacks. It also can be combo-ed from and stopped partway by fast falling>landing canceling.

Link's sword has power and disjointed attack, it's easy to shield but the battle confusion and your partner help Link land hits and not be punished. Link's melee attacks can be seen as 3 types: Large area attack, low attack, quick attack.

Large area attacks cover large areas (duh) with KO power. They are: Fair, Uair, Dair, Ftilt, Utilt, Usmash, Spin Attack. If your partner's not in danger (of being hit) and there's battle chaos these have strong potential to control the stage, particularly by comboing from landing cancel moves.

Low attacks are for when your partner's close. Link has a blind spot in front of him at about 45 degrees; if your partner's in the air at most SH distances or on a platform these will miss them. Fsmash, Fsmash2, Dsmash.

And there's fast attacks for combo breaking etc like Bair, Nair, Dash attack, Zair, jabs.

Good-in-the-air partners should space them selves around Link being low. Link's too slow to space around his partner. I'd guess Ike, Ganon, bowser and other big slow power houses would not team well with Link (Although Zair could let them land smashes from a safe distance).

Range attacks are more about recovery aid (for you and your partner, bombs always launch up), stopping offstage recovering opponents, and confusion/distractions. Not damage like 1 vs 1s projectiles are too slow. Bombs and boomerang can seriously destroy spacing. Arrows fly far when charged or SH/jumped.
Direct uncharged arrow and bomb spacing:

(Distance of) 1 quickdraw, 2 SH arrow, 3 jumped arrow, 4 weak bomb toss, 5 Forwards thrown bomb, 6 SH/jumped Forwards thrown bomb.

Edit:
Dtilt's still useless.

 

[quirkynature]

All these support Link being near the ground in teams; someone who dominates the air would be the ideal partner- Luigi/TLink and so on.

Good-in-the-air partners should space them selves around Link being low. Link's too slow to space around his partner. I'd guess Ike, Ganon, bowser and other big slow power houses would not team well with Link (Although Zair could let them land smashes from a safe distance).

Keeping this thread in mind, I had a friend play ZSS with me against a King Dedede+Peach.

Link's biggest problem is being chaingrabbed here, which meant that ZSS had to babysit me enough times to create openings in her game, but Peach was too slow (on the ground and in the air) to actually exploit those openings. Since ZSS and Peach spent as much time in the air as possible (ZSS' flip jump grants about a second or two of extra airtime), I was (when not being chaingrabbed) free to abuse Zair and projectiles against D3. Close in, a spotdodge earns Link a utilt->utilt->usmash combo. If D3 spotdodges the utilt, it's ZSS to the rescue (again).

When ZSS was knocked offstage, however, they switched opponents. D3's four mid-air jumps and b-air make gimping a breeze, which is where a tilted boomerang would force him to airdodge, which is where ZSS would tether and recover. Using the boomerang with Peach even moderately close was a mistake; I was punished with her F-air or that massively unlucky "stitchface" veggie, which is a big pain.

The one time we both were offstage, ZSS below me. I was out of tethering range, but not ZSS, which meant only one of us could recover. A u-air to my butt placed me above the stage , allowing ZSS to tether.

The one absolute nightmare-ish few seconds I had were when ZSS was Star-KOd, and D3 and Peach ganged up for a kill. I usually try not to walk into a ****, but the **** walked into me. U-tilt and F-tilt are good protectors against aerial attacks, but keeping Link busy with her F-air while D3 up-b's into you is an amazing way to die. I'm pretty sure I just succumbed to the pressure.

Either way, my long and rather winded point is that my findings support exactly what MES! says. Link is a grounded player and while he can spam his way into damage racker Hall of Fame, he will have to be babysat by a speedier character so as not to be gimped into a kill or, well, just outright killed.

I'll try to get in a video next time (the game was 10 minutes, not 3). Sorry if I didn't really add anything to the thread.

 

[Ryos4]

The question on my mind was that, do you think Link did anything for the team in the positive? Or was it all basically negatives in the point that he needs to be baby sat for the entirety of the match?

 

[Rizen]

DDD's always a pain because his freaky grab range. I'd fight him like 1 vs 1s: Zair and spam while holding a bomb. Dair's bounce might be useful.

@ Ryos4
I played with a pokemon trainer vs Falco and MK on pictochat. Big stages are better for Link but Link can hold his own on any stage if he stays away from the edges. Dair is like a magnet in a close combat situation same goes for other hard to land moves. Link can take advantage of 2 opponents not wanting to hurt each other with Zair combos. Throwing a bomb up as you Dair or Fsmash into the fray; the bomb is great insurance. The PKmon trainer died first and I had to fight MK and Falco alone which was almost as easy fighting them separately- Link can control spacing if he's on one side. Forward attacks are really good and likely to hit one opponent. I KOed the MK and lost to the Falco on the last stock, both of us at 160%+. Link can hold his own, stay on stage and throwing bombs up helps aggressive fighting. Keep opponents at the tip of Link's attack reach when sword/Zair fighting. Link needs his 'happy space bubble'.

 

[quirkynature]

The question on my mind was that, do you think Link did anything for the team in the positive? Or was it all basically negatives in the point that he needs to be baby sat for the entirety of the match?

From what I saw in the past three team matches I've played:

Positive: projectile harassment, decent damage racking capability via Zair->QDA followup combos, power in moves is usually enough to offstage opponents at mid-high percents, decent interference, quite difficult to star KO.

Negative: incorrect use of projectiles can rack damage quickly on teammate, spacing issues, ending lag can be punished by quicker characters; Ike/Marth/Lucario/Peach's counters can be a big pain, recovery may need to be augmented by a hit from teammate (ZSS' u-air is quite useful on FD to propel Link upwards), needs to be rescued from chaingrabs, doesn't have a reflector to deal with projectiles (Hylian shield needs to be angled down to deal with TLink's boomerang).

Link does not need to be babysat the entire time. He does, however, have to be rescued once in a while which creates openings in the teammate's gameplay. In teams, I use him mostly to annoy my opponents from afar and if all four players are close enough, Dsmash or grounded upB creates space (though additional damage on teammate is a problem).

Link plays the role of damage racker and finisher well. He also plays punisher (but that's in melee range), but he's just not made to be the DPS of the team. A team member should be low built (Jigglypuff, etc...), focus more on aerial combat and be quick.

The best experience I had was with ZSS, though projectile management becomes an issue because of her height. Kirby is another good candidate who can stay in the air, punish quickly (hammer, f-smash, etc...) and mindgame the opponent (stone...?).

 

[Ryos4]

When you come to a situation where you and your partner come into a battle with someone that is good against Link and also another character that is terrible against your partner and you could also hold your ground against. Would it be better to have your partner focus on Links bad match up or take advantage of the good match up they have?

Like for instance Link + Pit Vs Falco + Ike. Link will have trouble against Falco in general, and Pit will most likely do better against him. However, Pit has the ability to completely destroy Ike. So would it be better for Pit to focus on Falco to make the match a little more even all around? Or should Link just suck it up and let Pit go to work on Ike?

BTW i have no idea what the actual match ups are but i play both Link and Pit and i know how i would fair against the other two characters.

 

[Scabe]

Good question, I'll answer that question with an answer that doesn't really answer your question because I don't really know

Most people in teams will do a 1v1 type thing where: "I'll go after Link you take Pit".

I guess it would be better if Link and Pit helped each other out for a 2v1 and avoid the 1v1.

 

[Ryos4]

This is true. But it does require that you know how your partner plays. Generally its good to have a constant partner. Being in the location i am i never really had a constant partner. And it is usually better to just give each other space and support them when they really need it, if you don't know their play style. Especially since a lot of the random people i play with don't know anything about control and i end up having to play defensive against 3 people if the fight ever gets too close together. Its a lot easier to play when you don't have to worry about a random smashes from your partner.

 

[Rizen]

When you come to a situation where you and your partner come into a battle with someone that is good against Link and also another character that is terrible against your partner and you could also hold your ground against. Would it be better to have your partner focus on Links bad match up or take advantage of the good match up they have?

Like for instance Link + Pit Vs Falco + Ike. Link will have trouble against Falco in general, and Pit will most likely do better against him. However, Pit has the ability to completely destroy Ike. So would it be better for Pit to focus on Falco to make the match a little more even all around? Or should Link just suck it up and let Pit go to work on Ike?

BTW i have no idea what the actual match ups are but i play both Link and Pit and i know how i would fair against the other two characters.

It depends on the situation. Falco's more even with Link in teams but it depends on the stage and so on. I can't really answer your question except don't think of team matches like 1 vs 1s. The first thing that comes to my mind is SH moving camp and try to knock one of the opponents offstage and bait the partner. Falco will SH laser spam and maybe do that dash attack>Usmash combo to help Ike recover. Ike will probably go for a quick offensive while Falco forwardB recovers.
Link has so many bad MUs that you want to keep the fight from turning into 2 seprate 1 vs 1s.

 

[Ryos4]

Pit+ Link was really just an example.

I really was just wondering about the scenario itself. Is it better to take advantage of the... advantage while leaving your partner a possibly just as vulnerable. Or attempt to keep the battle even, this includes the whole team work thing in both just to get it out of the way. Purely in terms of match ups.

I guess this is really a futile question since the only real answer can be determined based on your belief in your partner on being able to survive.

 

[Anonano]

La-di-da, I saw this on Wednesday (my BDay when I decided to check back) and was intrigued by the discussion. So, after thinking about contributing for a few days...

Ryo, Pit should definitely focus on Ike. Knock Ike around while Link tries to suck it up, but whenever you have a chance turn around and snipe Falco. Link is fairly easy for Falco to beat, but a lot of the strategies that really hurt him like SHDL and CG combos take intense focus to pull off. This means that they can't expend a lot of energy on you, so you'll disrupt them, strip them of momentum, and also give Link time to snag a few hits.
This is key. Falco can do his CG up to, say, 60%, but after that it's all bait-and-switch, and fortunately Link has some talent at forcing the match to lengthen out from there. Falco can't afford to really rush Link, as that will give away a lot of his advantage, but neither can he turn his attention to Pit, as Link will finally be able to do some damage to Falco with projectiles. In the meanwhile, Pit is utterly wrecking Ike. The advantage goes strongly in your team's favor.

Essentially, have Pit stick to his strong points while Link (who, for all intents and purposes, we can assume has none) should do his best to prevent Pit's weak points from becoming an issue (ie distracting the worse MU char for Pit and wrecking him). Pit and Link can support each other quite well, but Pit has a better chance of being a better support than Link if he can beat down opponents and nick away at the other opponent for Link in his off-time.

If the Link player can't survive a difficult MU, then he really needs to improve.

Generally, spammy partners work well with Link. Snake, Pit, Lucario, ROB, Falco, Lucas, Ness, Samus, and Gay all amplify his strengths. You ever notice that opponents usually dodge Link's projectiles? This means they tend to hit the other opponent instead (at least in my dubz matches ). If you can keep your opponents between the two of you, your spam games will really mess up your opponents. Me and another scrub used this strategy against the two best players in our area, and although they initially sandbagged us they were forced to play all-out towards the end and force us back to back because we were messing them up too badly with each other's projectiles.
Frankly, having Samus as a teammate is LOL, but if one person is crazy enough to use Link, then it's only fair to assume that Samus could be a teammate as well. Both character's are just too lulzy to do well together, and Samus' spam isn't quite up to scratch in mess-up potential.
Fox has nice projectiles, and can really harass one opponent, but sadly his projectile is pointless for screwing up Link's current opponent. One or two percent isn't really gonna help Link out, sad to say.
ROB would be fantastic, but Link has got to learn the timing for when ROB is gonna laser. Shielding is fairly common for Link players, however, so it shouldn't be too much trouble to learn the timing.
TL is the best for this spammy type of teamwork. His projectiles are moderately fast and have the same harassing properties that Link's have.

Bear in mind, this is just one type of strategy that happens to work best with these characters--I'm sure there's other strategies that make other characters viable. This happens to be the only strategy I've used that has worked in dubz.

EDIT: Scabe, I saw where you put me in your version of the tier list and I love you forever. The end.

 

[quirkynature]

Generally, spammy partners work well with Link. Snake, Pit, Lucario, ROB, Falco, Lucas, Ness, Samus, and Gay all amplify his strengths.

I'm assuming Gay=MK.

Based on that assumption: how?!

He has no projectiles, and only massive priority. Sure, Gaynado means no issue being hit by a teammate Link, and MK has a good matchup against almost every character, but his movement speed isn't fast enough to do hit-and-run interruptions. Drill Rush will put an opponent on the run, sure, but, still, how?

 

[Rizen]

^ Some people call Toon Link Gay.

Edit response:

There's no connection. Link has been in a low/lowest tier since the first SSBs game. Then Brawl was released, Link had gotten even worse and TLink- a completely new character who's like a cartoony version of Link was much better. Some Link mains started calling him gay, other character mains too.
I hate the Wind Waker toon shading style and dislike TLink and Link's low placings but I don't call TLink Gay.

 

[quirkynature]

^ Some people call Toon Link Gay.

TLink gay? I don't see the connection...

 

[Ryos4]

It appears that there are many interpretations to how Link's and his partner should act. It would probably be best to go through each character individually rather then opinion on who's best as a partner.

Might i suggest going from bottom up to make things interesting? Starting with the Hyrule Tier itself.

 

[Scabe]

Ganondorf it is then. I hope I spelt it correctly, I'll go invite some of them over.

Here's something to think about when teaming with Ganon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e291cu7khzE#t=9m28s

 

[Ryos4]

The entirety of the actual youtube vid is pretty entertaining. Makes me wanna try the zair to dtilt jab lock or atleast the jablock to spike.

Anyway...

These two might make an interesting team. Using Link's projectiles to pester and flinch opponents while Ganon pulls off his powerful moves might actually work. As seen in that clip, Ganon's side B works wonders to start a quick jab lock to power move of Ganon's when the teammate gets sent offstage. I also feel really sorry for anyone who gets stuck in a 2v1 against these guys. Ganon side B is probably one of his most used moves.

Ganon's has a much better off stage game then Link with his Uair, up special, and spikes. Link can help control the stage and minimize the exits from Ganon's tech chases and even join in on his. Maybe something like when in the middle of the 2.
(Ganon) Side B>Jab>(Link) Jabs>(Ganon) Fsmash

But overall i assume it would be a pretty bad team. Similar in speed, power, and gimp-ability would probably leave them with the same weakness in terms of match ups. But then again i don't really keep track of those.

 

[PK-ow!]

This team is terrible.

There's nothing they do together and they're both **** characters.


Garbage tier.

Like, they are more garbage than either one is in singles.


Come on. Ganon gets in the way of everything Link wants to do, and he himself can't offer *any* support to a Link taking on some opponent except when they sandwich him. But the other opponent, no matter where he is, is going to screw up that arrangement, and - because Link and Ganon are **** - really easily.


Linked vid means nothing.


Random Boomerang wtfpwning Ganon, tons of friendly fire, completely unsynergistic playstyles, gimps < 50% for everybody, friendly Choke being a loss of stock if opponents are on point, this pair isn't even worth discussing.



Ganon's Side-B doesn't land against people who have reaction OR don't twitch dodge predictably near the worst character in the game and who doesn't have a move that makes dodging correct. Even against these crappy players you've seen playing vs. Ganon, Ryos, even if Link and Ganon are the mains of the two teamed players, there's no way this team combination could be advisable.

 

[Ryos4]

Why did you mention me? I already said they weren't going to be a good team.

And btw this Ganon team discussion is up first to make things more interesting. Instead of the basic boring discussion that everyone does with Top Tiers first and people like Ganon and Link are never discussed. Just because they are assumed to be garbage doesn't mean they arn't worth discussing. If you arn't going to discuss a character/team just because bad, why bother doing anything below the best?

Obviously being "bad" doesn't stop Link mains from discussing and playing Link competitively. Why should a "bad" team be any different?

 

[quirkynature]

The one thing that would make a Ganon/Link team interesting to play is the fact that there can be no room for error. Given, it's almost impossible to not mess up or read the opponent incorrectly, but the two can rack up damage quickly (despite their high lag moves) and Ganondorf can easily dispatch enemies with his relatively fast f-smash (which is a beast by itself).

As far as Link's projectile game goes, he'll have to micromanage it. Ganondorf is a large character with poor mobility. Sure, technically, spot-dodges can avoid friendly fire but that's not realism. Recovery for both is well known, so I'll skip it.

The one viable combo could come from the fact that Ganon's U-smash has quite a few IASA frames, allowing it to be coupled into F-tilt, D-tilt or (if Link can boomerang the opponent well enough) U-tilt directly into one of Link's attacks. Ganon's D-smash can be DI'd out of, so Link will have to provide cover to avoid punishment.

I'm thinking the best way for a Link/Ganon team to function would be back-to-back. Literally. Get to the other teammate and take the fight from there. Ganon's KO ability coupled with Link's mid-range harassment could be a fun play.

 

[Terodactyl Yelnats]

PK-ow pretty much summed it up, neither character can approach that well. Link only has his zair or a surprise DACUS if he wants to try to approach.

The only thing they'd be good at is that they both make an pretty decent defensive team combo. If both opponents are slow and/or don't have a projectile then Link can force an approach on the team and create multiple openings for Ganon which could be devastating. Other than that they pretty much fail at everything else.

 

[Huggles828]

Obviously being "bad" doesn't stop Link mains from discussing and playing Link competitively. Why should a "bad" team be any different?

Agreed. We could just say "lol double MK's or MK/Snake = best team end of thread." But we don't because we play a character we love.

I don't think much is scarier than Ganon once he gets in your face, his problem is him getting in your face. Thus, Ganon is even more terrifying on a team, and Ganon plus anyone who can support him is about as one-sided as it gets 2 vs. 1 (like the video). The problem is while it's still 2 vs. 2 Ganon is going to be a giant pinball, unless he has a very good partner who can hold off the other two singlehandedly if necessary to help him and give Ganon openings to use his Ultramurderrape powers. Link is not really built to control a teams match by himself. As said above, Ganon is fat (bad for projectiles) and his sluggishness and equally wretched recovery expose huge flaws on your team since we share these weaknesses with him. I don't think it couldn't work, but it's certainly not a very good team, especially since you'll lack speed and be super vulnerable to gimps (guess who can singlehandedly cover both of those for the opponents' team? Guess who's also one of the most common teams characters?). The only advantage out of this is that Ganon can be scary if the opponent doesn't know what to do against him, which honestly isn't much of an advantage. Plus, he's evil, and we'd have to worry about him stabbing us in the back the whole match.

 

[Scabe]

Okay so there's been alot of talk about this team being horrible and stuff but let's try to give some input that will help out anyone who is willing to try this team in doubles. Think of friends who enter low tier doubles etc.

I like the pairing up, two of the worst characters in the game which is from the same game, Hero + Villian, Team combination doesn't get as epic as this.

Let me start of with referring back to Dekar's guide:

Ganondorf: Punish
Carry- 1
Stock Tank- 1/7 (babysitting)
Punisher- 8
DPS- 4
Great Offensive Support
Decent Defensive Support
Large Interference Issues

Ganondorf is a punisher equipped with a strong moveset. Almost all his moves are kill moves. Punisher's go good with characters who can DPS and tank, both qualities Link possesses.

Carry:
Link and Ganon both have a poor carry options. They're both going to struggle.

Stock Tank:
Ganon is heavy and can live up to high percents but he is in the same boat as Link where they are easily gimped and edgegaurded. Ganon's survivability is much worse in a team situation than Link is though. Opponents will quickly target him due to his big stature , he will quickly build up damage and lose his stock unless he is watched over by Link.

The fact is that Link doesn't have the defensive qualities to look after Ganon. Link is slow in terms of running speed, air speed, moves, pretty much everything. He can't rush in there and help Ganon if he's being brutally *****.

Punisher:
As said before Ganon has some really strong moves. Up air, Fsmash, Fair, Dair, are what I think are his reliable kill moves. Apart from Fsmash it seems as though Ganon's moves are good for killing opponents when they are off stage.

DPS:
Ganon's moves, are hard to hit with since their so slow, but when they do hit they deal quite alot of damage. Two stomps deal like 30 percent.

Offensive support:
Great Offensive support comes from his side B. As shown in the video I posted before: in a 2v1 situation Link can jab lock giving a Free hit to Ganon's powerful moves.

Decent Defensive Support:
If Link's being sandwhich'd by characters Ganon can come in with Wizkick to break it up. Don't really know how useful that is though and other defensive support moves he has.

Large Interference:
Both Ganon and Link have large interference issues, combined these two together and you have major interference issues. You'll probably find that you hurt each other as much as the opponent does, slight exaggeration. But if you guys want to work,

General tips:
The one idea I have is to have bombs out all the time, this may be hard since they take some time to pull out. Bombs can help Ganon's recovery when he's offstage. They can also help break apart enemies that are beating up Ganon.

Link should be the damager with his projectiles and focus on hitting opponent's offstage, where Ganon can go off and hit them.

In fact maybe the best option is to constantly try and put your opponent offstage. It's much harder than it sounds but when you do this you give Ganon + Link more room on stage which is something they want. If Ganon isn't fighting an enemy, hit an opponent offstage in his direction if he is fighting an enemy then hit the opponent offstage in the other direction.

Good Attributes
Heavy characters, many kill moves

Bad Attributes
Both easily gimped, Both are big slow targets

Characters to watch out for:
Double Metaknight I think would destory this team. Metaknights in teams would be extremely difficult for Link and Ganon to deal with.

Stage Picking
Big stages with lots of room. FD, Pictochat.

Platforms could help avoid the interference issue, Link can platform camp while Ganon's on the ground.

Advance Team Techniques
I think this team works well in a 2v1 situation. There's alot of oppurtunity for Ganon do use his strong moves when Link's gets a grab. Some of Link's throw's could lead to Ganon's Dair, such as Link's Fthrow.

Is the team viable?
I'd give this team a 0-3/10

Anyways I'm just theory talking here, I've never had the luxury of teaming with a Ganon and I've never seen a doubles match with Ganon in it so excuse me princess if I'm completely wrong

 

[Ryos4]

That sounds good. Hmm maybe Norfair too? Awesome for characters easily gimped. Plus Ganon can spam his uair and dair off stage without having to worry about edge hogs. Chain grabs are limited there, and both Link and Ganon have nasty Dairs they can just spam everywhere. Lots of room for running around. If Ganon is close to death it would be so easy to go for a ganoncide.

Idk thats just my thoughts, ive never really attempted to play as ganon cause hes EVIL.

 

[Scabe]

Norfair sounds like an excellent stage for these two.

I didn't put didn't too much thought into this (don't mind the numbers I just copied and pasted this stage list):

Starter

Yoshi's Island [Brawl] - Bad for Ganon I think, but pretty big stage, not too bad in general
Battlefield (47-0-1) - Somewhat small, unsure
Smashville (24-0-1) - Too small, bad
Final Destination (26-2-1) - Good, lots of space and even terrain


Starter/Counter

Lylat Cruise - avoid, bad stage for ganon and pretty bad for link
Halberd - Small in the beginning, gimping in the beginning could happen, unsure
Pokémon Stadium 1 (16-14-2) - Good big stage,
Castle Siege (5-9-0) - big space, some parts limit links projectiles. Good stage I think


Counter

Delfino Plaza - unsure
Brinstar - unsure
Frigate Orpheon (1-29-0) - Bad for both especially the right part at the beginning
Rainbow Cruise (0-30-1) - Bad when it gets up to the bit where you have to jump alot
Jungle Japes (0-14-1) - Bad, both characters have a high chance of dieing when they fall into the water.
Pirate Ship (0-15-3) - Good, big stage allows room for camping, water allows Ganon and Link to not be gimped also it let's ganon spike much more
PictoChat (0-25-9) - Big space, even terrain, good
Pokémon Stadium 2 (0-24-11) - Big space, just the hazards are pretty annoying for everyone but nothing too troublesome.


Counter/Banned

Norfair (0-16-10) - Big space, small ceiling, good
Luigi's Mansion (0-11-8) - good
Distant Planet (0-15-11) - unsure
Green Greens (0-6-9) - bad
Yoshi's Island [Melee] (0-10-19) - good
Port Town Aero Dive (0-12-23) - eh?


Banned

Hanenbow (0-5-16)
Mario Circuit (0-5-19)
Onett (0-3-14)
Corneria (0-3-15)
Big Blue (0-3-17)
75m (2-2-24)
Green Hill Zone (0-3-19)
New Pork City (2-1-20)
Rumble Falls (0-3-21)
Shadow Moses Island (1-1-20)
Summit (0-2-20)
Mario Bros. (2-0-22)
Flat Zone 2 (1-1-22)
Bridge of Eldin (0-2-25)
WarioWare Inc. (0-2-33)
Spear Pillar (1-0-31)
Skyworld (0-0-16)
Temple (0-0-16)
Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1 (0-0-19)
Mushroomy Kingdom 1-2 (0-0-21)

 

[quirkynature]

Quoting Scabe's very well defined character-related post...a few comments, that's all.

A Ganon/Link team is unheard of. Period. So selecting the two characters gives a bit of a psychological edge during the beginning of the match, which is where the opponent might play defensively, allowing for Ganon to score a few critical hits which Link can either follow up on or support Ganon as he goes in for the kill.

Of the two, Ganon is definitely the stock tank but the amount of punishment he will have to take will be massive because of what Scabe said and because Ganon doesn't have any move that can come out in frame 1 (another problem Link suffers from).

As for punishing, Ganondorf makes an amazing punisher when his spot-dodge is used well (frames 2 to 20 out of 25 are invincibility frames) followed up by his F-tilt or his F-smash or QDA.

They both have great offensive support (especially 2 on 1), but defensive support is a major issue primarily because: Ganon's moves do good damage when they connect and breaking up a sandwiched Link can sometimes KO him at high enough damage even with a wizfoot. That said, let it be known there will be tons of friendly fire between the two.

For Link mains: do keep one bomb out, as Scabe said. The bombs will help Ganon's offstage recovery, but be prepared to show off your DI-ing skills if you do help Ganon, unless you're on Norfair, in which case DI straight down and Z-air twice (credit goes to Huggles828 in the Link's Match-ups Export: MK thread for an awesome suggestion).

As for who the main damager is, I can't say. Link keeps racking up damage steadily enough, but one or two hits from Ganon and the rhythm of the match changes completely. As Scabe said, constantly try to offstage one opponent for Ganon. True, it is harder than it sounds but get the match this way for as often as possible: one opponent offstage, Ganondorf's aerials (d-air *****) pushing them further offstage, Link holding the other opponent away. Zair is a godsend in this case (for spacing and mindgames with bomb).

They're both heavy characters with an amazing array of kill moves, but being an effective team will require both to master ATs and be rather well coordinated. As for the characters to watch out for, Ganondorf will be harassed by almost any character the opponent has, but even the slightest interference from Link will allow Ganon an opportunity to retaliate. Landing a Warlock Punch is one of the ultimate ways to own your opponent, but either feint into it or have Link throw your opponent into one (Link's B-throw works very well...landing that grab, however...).

I know I've said it before, but I'll say it again: use and abuse Ganon's IASA frames in his U-smash (enough people will charge in right after you pull one out that a U-smash followed immediately by a F-tilt will garner a few "wtf"s). Given that Ganon's F-tilt is a semi-spike, go crazy with the possible combos.

As far as team viability goes, I agree with Scabe completely. 0-3/10 sums it up nicely. The team's got an edge the first few minutes (possibly seconds) into the match but after that, it will all boil down to how well both of you can abuse spot-dodges.

 

[Rizen]

This team is terrible.

There's nothing they do together and they're both **** characters.


Garbage tier.

Like, they are more garbage than either one is in singles.


Come on. Ganon gets in the way of everything Link wants to do, and he himself can't offer *any* support to a Link taking on some opponent except when they sandwich him. But the other opponent, no matter where he is, is going to screw up that arrangement,

if Link and Ganon are the mains of the two teamed players, there's no way this team combination could be advisable.

Agree.
If for some reason Link is paired with Ganon, Link should try to hit opponent's into Ganon's Uair and attacks. Both characters should distance from the other and use big attacks hoping to catch an opponent off balance and hit them into your partner's attacks. Link could quick edge hog/tether edge snap>jump Dair if he's pushed against an edge. Ganon needs to avoid edges at all costs.

 

[Huggles828]

be prepared to show off your DI-ing skills if you do help Ganon, unless you're on Norfair, in which case DI straight down and Z-air twice (credit goes to Huggles828 in the Link's Match-ups Export: MK thread for an awesome suggestion).

Credit goes to Legan in the number 4 play of this Youtube video for an awesome Link. :D

I don't think Ganon/Link is absolutely dreadful, but it is bad. I would give it a 2 (on a scale of 0-10 inclusive). These two could get some ultrarape in if they can get some stuff going, but both of them struggle to get things going as it is, and barring a major meltdown or miscommunication by your foes this isn’t going to happen.

 

[Scabe]

I'm kinda dissapointed that we haven't had any input from the Ganon's. I suppose we'll move on to Zelda soon.

 

[#HBC | J]

daaaaag you guys work fast O_O

After my finals are done I will be sure to get you guys a summary of and of your team up.

I got alot of reading to do ^.^ I know what i got to do when im bored