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link and ike lover

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A lot of characters have trouble with sheik. I say 85% of the rooster have trouble with sheik. With exceptions like Kirby and Rosalina and some others.
But yea my hardest and most hated MU is Link vs Sheik. Sheik has barely any landing lag in any her moves. And her grabs.... Link cant do anything even in Nair is not fast enough to stop Sheiks Fair. Also her needles to bouncing fish and grabs to fair.
Its just horrible

I played Zorai. And I got bodied because all he did was grab and fair ;-;
 

DUKEL

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But... the needles. She pretty much has a guaranteed aerial needle into grab out of shield stun.
All the math I'm doing says the largest frame advantage sheik would have after landing a needle is +1. Unless there's some mystery perimeter regarding needles I don't know about, we can still avoid the grab.
May I remind you though, the shield stun in this game now exedes that of Melee.
Yes I know. But with low percent attacks, the differences between 4 and Melee will be negligible for the majority of the cast.
 
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DUKEL

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I would explain how in more detail, but I'm afraid it would fall on deaf ears. There's a pretty severe "Link is bad" circlejerk here that I don't even want to try to fight against.
 

TurboLink

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I would explain how in more detail, but I'm afraid it would fall on deaf ears. There's a pretty severe "Link is bad" circlejerk here that I don't even want to try to fight against.
Go right on ahead. The stage is yours.
 

Rizen

Smash Legend
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Messages
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I would explain how in more detail, but I'm afraid it would fall on deaf ears. There's a pretty severe "Link is bad" circlejerk here that I don't even want to try to fight against.
It's not just us. The general competitive impression is that Link rates the high end of 'underwhelming'.
http://smashboards.com/threads/viability-ratings-v2-competitive-impressions.410551/

In other news I found a comic that demonstrates @Catana 's persona, particularly in panels 6 and 7:
 
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DJTHED

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This also happened when I was fighting Link7


Ey
 

Dumbfire

Sex? Yes, I'm familiar with the theory
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We've apparently had entirely different experiences fighting sheik. Pre-patch, Link was probably in the top 10 of characters with the best matchups against Shiek in my experience.
Do you realize how insane this comment is? Do you realize I can never take your "experience" serious again? Do you want testimony? Evidence?
my honest opinion after playing Mr. R, K9, Zero and other top sheiks don't use link in that MU but if you must camp like you would a D3 in brawl bomb always in hand execution on spacing and aerials, smashes, jabs, etc must be incredibly precise its just incredibly difficult easily links worst MU and if you disagree play a "real" sheik not some local/fg/wifi sheik

edit: its still possible its just incredibly difficult :D
A lot of characters have trouble with sheik. I say 85% of the rooster have trouble with sheik. With exceptions like Kirby and Rosalina and some others.
But yea my hardest and most hated MU is Link vs Sheik. Sheik has barely any landing lag in any her moves. And her grabs.... Link cant do anything even in Nair is not fast enough to stop Sheiks Fair. Also her needles to bouncing fish and grabs to fair.
Its just horrible

I played Zorai. And I got bodied because all he did was grab and fair ;-;
Wanted to revive this discussion because in my personal opinion, this matchup is going to be one of, if not THE hardest matchup you guys will normally face. Keep in mind this is a discussion of two EQUALLY SKILLED players, so the Link in this scenario has just as much skill/knowledge of the game as the Sheik would.

Sheik vs. Link: Easily a disadvantage for Link, at the very least 6/4 in Sheik's favor, probably worse.
If your "experience" is that Link has one of the best match-ups against Sheik in the game, you are not playing very good Sheiks.

I beat this Sheik here. Does that mean we already had a "pretty good" match-up against Sheik? No. The moment I faced a truly competent Sheik (who, surprise surprise, is a revered, travelled player with experience beyond his local scene, i.e. not some nobody) I got wrecked.

HH beat a Sheik here. Does that mean we already had a "pretty good" match-up against Sheik? Is he just playing the match-up wrong here?

And here?

Was Requiem just fluking here? Not "using pivot ftilt" enough?

I would explain how in more detail, but I'm afraid it would fall on deaf ears. There's a pretty severe "Link is bad" circlejerk here that I don't even want to try to fight against.
Fine, then don't: leave. You think you can accuse us of "circlerjerking" without us lifting a finger?
 

Tri Knight

Smash Ace
Joined
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Messages
783
I would explain how in more detail, but I'm afraid it would fall on deaf ears. There's a pretty severe "Link is bad" circlejerk here that I don't even want to try to fight against.
I never said he's bad but he does lack when compared to the top tiers. Hes just held back. It'd be too ignorant to say he can stack up to the likes of fully competent Sheik's, Fox's, etc. This shield stun gift probably won't change that either. But this will probably fall on deaf ears as well, I'm afraid. So I just wasted my time here.
 

Be_Mild

Livin' life on the mild side
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All that these poor, deaf ears want is to have a normal life and you people keep falling on them. It's sad, really.
 

Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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Last time I checked powershield did have a 4 frame window, so, yeah.
Just a correction, power-shielding is definitely a 3 frame window now. I can't say for sure when that happened, but I'm going to blame either misinformation http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-47#post-20198023 or the recent patch for my error.
In any case, I've checked and double checked myself, and it's definitely a 3 frame window only.
 

skydogc

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So me and DJTHED DJTHED were playing, and we went to Pirate Ship, just for fun. Needless to say, this happened.

Jesus Christ, I log off to leave you and DJTHED DJTHED alone for 15 minutes and next thing we know, wood is semi-solid and people are getting catapulted and run over by boats.
 

Dumbfire

Sex? Yes, I'm familiar with the theory
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Pirate Ship, like Norfair, was legal at some points in some places back in Brawl -- God that was great, I loved the fun in those huge stagelists. Rainbow Cruise was great too.
 

Rizen

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I really liked Brinstar in Brawl. Except fighting MK there was pure hell.

My stupid mouse is getting worse, clicking 2 or 3 times in a row from 1 click by me and often failing to register clicks. Time to get a new one.
 

Rinku リンク

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I feel like there was more stage variety during the brawl era. Now it's either Smashville or Town and City (which is basically Smashville with platform shenanigans).
 

Dumbfire

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A guy from our scene said he would accept Norfair gentleman's agreements, I'm so doing it (I didn't have to chance so far since I 2-0d him twice so no CP for me ;( ).
 

Rizen

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On the way home I saw 2 deer crossing the street at a crosswalk, with 'yield to pedestrians' signs and everything. It was funny :awesome:

Edit, people make weird assumptions about Link like 'TL's bombs hit close but Link's don't.' and 'TL's Zair can hit close but Link's needs to be spaced far away'. :facepalm:
 
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skydogc

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On the way home I saw 2 deer crossing the street at a crosswalk, with 'yield to pedestrians' signs and everything. It was funny :awesome:
I think you mean, "yield to pedeerstrians" :D

eh :D

eh? :D

Alright, thank you Termina! I'll be here all 3 days! G'night!
 

Lawz.

The Original Deadpool Fan
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A guy from our scene said he would accept Norfair gentleman's agreements, I'm so doing it (I didn't have to chance so far since I 2-0d him twice so no CP for me ;( ).
"Man this sucks, I'm too good so I never get the chance to lose and take people where I want them".

You live a harsh life.

EDIT: I miss Norfair. I miss taking Meta Knights there and beating them. Badly. The good ol days.
 
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TurboLink

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On the way home I saw 2 deer crossing the street at a crosswalk, with 'yield to pedestrians' signs and everything. It was funny :awesome:

Edit, people make weird assumptions about Link like 'TL's bombs hit close but Link's don't.' and 'TL's Zair can hit close but Link's needs to be spaced far away'. :facepalm:
Rushdown bias.
 

Nimious

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We've apparently had entirely different experiences fighting sheik. Pre-patch, Link was probably in the top 10 of characters with the best matchups against Shiek in my experience. Our neutral's far better than hers, we also have a way to build damage and can reliably kill her with a grab, while she has lots of issues killing. We're heavy, so we live longer and gain rage to the point where she can die to a tilt right outside the percentages our dthrow u-air.

You're also blowing the new shieldstun way out of proportion. At best - if Shiek lands a f-air tipper, she only has a 3 frame advantage. At worst, the frame advantage is 0. We just have to be smart about when she f-airs our shield and we'll be fine.
No, just you. I don't know how you somehow never faced a good Sheik but it's a terrible MU. Link is not anywhere close to being a top 10 MU against Sheik either and your idea that Link has a far better neutral than Sheik...?

Sheik's neutral is one of the best if not the best.

Link also has to approach in this MU due to Sheik's needle camping and that's never a good thing considering how slow and laggy his moves are.

Sheik also has the most reliable way to build damage vs Link. Grab -> BF (19%) works 4 - 5 times (fifth depending on DI) from zero percent against Link which is ridiculous but happens due to his weight and fall speed. This is made worse by the fact that she can freely Fair Link on his shield followed by Jab -> Jab to stop whatever option we pick right after. If she spaces her Fairs right she can keep doing so and all you can do is roll. If a Fair does land that's an automatic true combo BF till high percentages where the Sheik can always switch to soft Nair -> BF to kill.

Your belief that Sheik can't kill is outdated by over half a year. Her extensive 50/50 options and Void combos should remove any doubt about her killing abilities.

It's only the bad Sheiks that can't kill.

Being smart about how she Fairs our shield? All you can do is roll or spot dodge. Jumping just gets you hit.

I don't know if you still play competitively but it's astounding how you haven't faced a good Sheik in a local. You should probably find some good Sheiks and get some real experience before you get your opinion shattered in matches that matter.


I once thought Link had a chance and two months ago I'd play it nearly daily against a decent Sheik called Method. As time went on it became more and more impossible to the point I won't ever bother with this MU again.
 

Dumbfire

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Elessar isn't participating, just organizing and commentating. He's largely done with the game, he hadn't played in months until last week.
 

Dumbfire

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Do you know if they have a challonge bracket by any chance?
They don't, they had no Internet right before the tournament -- the big drawback of challonge is that you need an internet connection for it to work.
 
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