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Nimious

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Yes it is likely for them to disrespect you to go link against chars like that, and of course they're going to shield as you can easily react to it; but the point is its safer than a bomb pull and gives you a moment to breathe and think which is very important in these match-ups.


You want to escape to the ledge? HF getting edgeguarded/gimped. They can also easily reach your jump with their uair; dont underestimate their speed.


Thats possible, but you will also allow him to charge up his gyro which is arguably one of the best projectiles in the game.
If we're talking about this competitively I would play a mind game before the match to show your opponent that you deserve their respect so they don't just mindlessly run at you. Ask for a hand warmer and go over a few Bombslides and whatever else you may want to do. The point is you show your opponent you're not some For Glory Link and that you know what you're doing. Considering that most players have never even seen a Bombslide it has an impact.

If at this point your opponent still runs straight at you I'd be plain baffled at how reckless they are. The closest thing to that happening to me in tournament was a ZSS running straight at me before holding shield. That's proper, they showed respect as they should except I got a bomb out of their respect.

Even if you got your moment to breathe and think, it's right at the start of the match. What good does this do for you? If we're still talking about the same situation where your opponent has ran straight at you, what is there to think about that you haven't thought of in advance? We're talking about this hypothetical scenario right now, thinking about it, I doubt whatever answers we arrive at now would be different if this happened in reality. Yes there's variables given the stage and character but I still don't think you'll come up with a different answer.

The reason why I would still want to pull a bomb against a ZSS or Falcon is precisely because it's so difficult to find the room to pull one out. Later on in the match it is even more opportunistic and dangerous to try and pull a bomb. I'm not underestimating Falcon, ZSS or any other character's ability follow-up on Link's jump with Up-air.

I play against the city's best ZSS quite often. I would not worry about being gimped by a ZSS, especially at 0% and still having the off stage jump. Even if it were a Falcon I wouldn't worry at the start of the game. While true that giving up the stage for the ledge would often be a bad idea we're still talking about a hypothetical opponent who not only has ran across the stage but has not stopped and ran off the ledge as well to try and gimp you.

This is some nut job hypothetical opponent :laugh:.

Most likely they stop at the edge of the stage preparing to guard against you but given Link's options from the ledge with bomb in hand it's not actually bad at all. I would also doubt they would try and trump a tether.

Regardless, before the start of the match you decide whether to pull bomb or not. Your opponent is likely running at you anyways so the best you can do is guess based on what you know.

Against Rob you can full jump towards him and bomb pull before tossing a projectile at him to stop the gyro. There's not much you can do at the start of the match anyways.
 
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smokebomb12

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Loss my first Anthers match. I never knew they took points away from you. Now I feel even more hyped, knowing that I have something to gain and loose.
If we're talking about this competitively I would play a mind game before the match to show your opponent that you deserve their respect so they don't just mindlessly run at you. Ask for a hand warmer and go over a few Bombslides and whatever else you may want to do. The point is you show your opponent you're not some For Glory Link and that you know what you're doing. Considering that most players have never even seen a Bombslide it has an impact.

If at this point your opponent still runs straight at you I'd be plain baffled at how reckless they are. The closest thing to that happening to me in tournament was a ZSS running straight at me before holding shield. That's proper, they showed respect as they should except I got a bomb out of their respect.

Even if you got your moment to breathe and think, it's right at the start of the match. What good does this do for you? If we're still talking about the same situation where your opponent has ran straight at you, what is there to think about that you haven't thought of in advance? We're talking about this hypothetical scenario right now, thinking about it, I doubt whatever answers we arrive at now would be different if this happened in reality. Yes there's variables given the stage and character but I still don't think you'll come up with a different answer.

The reason why I would still want to pull a bomb against a ZSS or Falcon is precisely because it's so difficult to find the room to pull one out. Later on in the match it is even more opportunistic and dangerous to try and pull a bomb. I'm not underestimating Falcon, ZSS or any other character's ability follow-up on Link's jump with Up-air.

I play against the city's best ZSS quite often. I would not worry about being gimped by a ZSS, especially at 0% and still having the off stage jump. Even if it were a Falcon I wouldn't worry at the start of the game. While true that giving up the stage for the ledge would often be a bad idea we're still talking about a hypothetical opponent who not only has ran across the stage but has not stopped and ran off the ledge as well to try and gimp you.

This is some nut job hypothetical opponent :laugh:.

Most likely they stop at the edge of the stage preparing to guard you but given Link's options from the ledge with bomb in hand it's not actually bad at all. I would also doubt they would try and trump a tether.

Regardless, before the start of the match you decide whether to pull bomb or not. Your opponent is likely running at you anyways so the best you can do is guess based on what you know.

Against Rob you can full jump towards him and bomb pull before tossing a projectile at him to stop the gyro. There's not much you can do at the start of the match anyways.
Hey, do you have any ZSS tip? I am asking you cause you seem to have a huge IQ when it comes to options.

What ZSS best option for a ness that pressures you with forward air?
 
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Nimious

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Saying that bomb pulling is the optimal way to start off every match shows how little you've played against characters with charge shots or good dash grabs, which brings into question the advice you're giving as a whole, and whether or not you even play competitive smash offline.

Against characters with any sort of chargeable projectiles, we should never start with a bomb pull in your first set. SH arrows are great for forcing your opponent to shield on any stage other than battlefield (or if they're not paying close enough attention you might even reset the charge), which gives you stage control, and it might either force your opponent to approach (which Link loves), or give you an opening to approach all depending on how your opponent reacts. Maybe after the first game you can then bomb pull at the start due to mild conditioning, but if you guess wrong, your opponent is now charging a powerful projectile and you have to SH again to get an arrow over to stop it if it isn't mostly charged already.

Characters with good dash grabs (see: captain falcon) if they see you SH bomb pull, or just pull a bomb in general, will utilize their dash grab to start off the match. If they see you pull a bomb, that's free lag for them, and a free 20%-30% combo before you even have a chance to do anything. You're really underestimating how quick some characters are.
Tournament I just competed at: http://i.imgur.com/9BG1q2z.png
Friendly I played: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gdfn4O0OJZM

Now that we can get past whether I play competitively offline and that I do know my Link let's move onto your poor advice.

If your opponent is charging a shot there is nothing better you can do than to pull a bomb. What else are you going to do then? Fire an arrow that they'll block before resuming their charge? You seem to think they'll stop charging just because you shot an arrow at them...

That's hilarious. So supposedly I've not played against enough characters with chargeable moves when the best advice you can give is to give them a moments pause that amounts to nothing. How is that better than jumping towards them while pulling a bomb and pressuring with a projectile after so you've broken up the space and arrived with a bomb....

If anything your advice is what I saw on For Glory since day one so thanks for the help.

Bomb only has lag when you stay in one spot and for a bit after the end of a SH. However you don't have to do either of those. Full jump is an option that carries no lag upon landing.

Characters with good dash grabs (see: captain falcon) if they see you SH bomb pull, or just pull a bomb in general, will utilize their dash grab to start off the match.
If they see Link pull a bomb it's already too late. If at this point they decide to run in they won't make it in time to capitalize on any lag. They have to decide to run in BEFORE the match even starts.

Now I'm questioning whether you play Link at all.....

Maybe Link's awe inspiring pre-match mind games will cause your opponent's head to explode, winning you the match without lifting a finger.
Haha. You know what I meant. I'm not sure why you people believe that your opponent is so likely to run straight at you with zero respect. Why would any competitive player do that when it's so risky?
 
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DUKEL

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If your opponent is charging a shot there is nothing better you can do than to pull a bomb. What else are you going to do then? Fire an arrow that they'll block before resuming their charge? You seem to think they'll stop charging just because you shot an arrow at them...
If you had bothered to read what I wrote, I said that it puts you in a position where your opponent will no longer be able to charge their projectile due to threat of punishment. You shoot the arrow, they shield, and you approach. Then, if they try to charge it any more, you either do another SH arrow if they're still too far away, or you punish them. It's pretty simple, actually.
Bomb only has lag when you stay in one spot and for a bit after the end of a SH. However you don't have to do either of those. Full jump is an option that carries no lag upon landing.

If they see Link pull a bomb it's already too late. If at this point they decide to run in they won't make it in time to capitalize on any lag. They have to decide to run in BEFORE the match even starts.
I decided to run some tests in training mode, because we both apparently have a different concept of how fast Captain Falcon is. If you SH bomb pull from the start of the match, Captain Falcon will be able to start running ON REACTION when you're at the height of your short hop, and still get there in time to dash grab you WITHOUT DANGER OF PUNISHMENT on FD, Smashville, Halberd, and Delfino. With Town & City, he has to start running at the start of the match in order to get there in time, but he can still easily retreat (roll back) if you don't do your short hop bomb pull without getting punished for trying. Duck Hunt was the only flat start stage (in other words, a stage where the characters don't start on any platforms) that Captain Falcon could never get there in time.

Full hopping then pulling your bomb does net different results, but you have to be pretty accurate on your timing if you don't want to get grabbed. Also, Captain falcon has even more time to react than if you SH bomb pull. If you full hop, the only option for you to not get grabbed on the aforementioned stages is a forward thrown bomb while you're still in the air. If you mistime the bomb throw however, the bomb goes over Falcon's head (due to his dash grab animation making him duck a little), and he grabs you. Z dropping and throwing the bomb down didn't work due to the nature of Captain Falcon's dash grab's slide which passes the bomb without an issue.

Turns out you were underestimating Falcon's speed, like I assumed.
Now I'm questioning whether you play Link at all.....
That's funny coming from someone who apparently doesn't know the matchup against the most overplayed character in Smash 4. Are you sure you play Link against good competitive players? Players that are significantly better than the terrible DDD you faced in the video you linked? Because all the advice you've given thus far would never work in my local scene.
 
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Huggles828

Aimin' to Misbehave
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TL;DR
1. In general, bomb pull is a good way to start a match
2. If it's a fast character, bomb pull may not be a good way to start a match
3. Falcon is really fast, guys!
 

Zane the pure

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Smashboards: Home of the theorycrafters
Because most people are uncomfortable with the fact that discussing things on an internet forum only helps beginners improve. For the average intermediate to high level player the only thing forums do for you is present a few new ideas every once in a while, none of which make you a better player. Time spent playing/practicing/researching has the potential to make you a better player, but the most helpful path to improvement is to find an exceptionally skilled player in your region, and grind out a very lengthy set while trading information.You'll learn a lot more doing than talking.

That of course has nothing to with Cat because her tournament history in multiple games is well documented.
 
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Linkmario00

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It's sad because while there isn't a scene in my region there are quite a bit of tournaments in other Italian regions, but I'm only 14 so I can't go to them and even if there were here in Veneto I doubt my parents would let me partecipate. And the saddest thing ever,I don't know anyone who plays smash. Like, not even casually. I played one. Single. Time. Offline. With someone that was playing smash for his first time. I feel bad. You have all
the right to call me a wife scrub
 

Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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Yupp I'm using it now, but I haven't seen a single other Link dude use it including you :@
...
Yes, well, it hasn't been for a lack of trying on my part I can assure you. I dug around and found a few of the times I've mentioned it, not including PM's.

Here I am, still so full of hope. I had only recently started using the soft throw tech. http://smashboards.com/threads/link...-techniques-here.379659/page-11#post-18513811

Then here you see that a little bit of doubt is setting in, leading into disbelief in the conversation that follows. In any case, this time it was going to work, I was sure of it. People had seen it; I had confirmation this time. http://smashboards.com/threads/the-hero-of-time-advanced-techniques.396058/#post-18818883

Shortly after I actually linked people to the first post and specifically state what it is again. http://smashboards.com/threads/link...-it-has-courage.370194/page-139#post-18850142

At this point I seem to be assuming that people don't need the full explanation, but it's definitely all there in plain sight. http://smashboards.com/threads/link...-it-has-courage.370194/page-139#post-18850405

If you look closely, you can actually pin-point the moment where I lost my sanity. http://smashboards.com/threads/link...shing-f-tilting-removed.398184/#post-18936618

Not to worry. The AT thread will inform everyone once and for all. Or so I thought. http://smashboards.com/threads/the-comprehensive-guide-to-links-ats.400585/#post-19072027

I just sort of slipped it in there this time. Because screw it, I may as well post about it in all of the threads. http://smashboards.com/threads/you-found-the-hint-glasses-q-a-and-faq.382114/page-5#post-19108242


Just recently I went to some lengths to make sure it gets shown in the next 'art of link' so maybe people will actually take notice this time. It's a shame that it would require something like that though. It makes one question exactly what is being accomplished here, this just another post among all too many.
 

FSK

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Messages
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...
Yes, well, it hasn't been for a lack of trying on my part I can assure you. I dug around and found a few of the times I've mentioned it, not including PM's.

Here I am, still so full of hope. I had only recently started using the soft throw tech. http://smashboards.com/threads/link...-techniques-here.379659/page-11#post-18513811

Then here you see that a little bit of doubt is setting in, leading into disbelief in the conversation that follows. In any case, this time it was going to work, I was sure of it. People had seen it; I had confirmation this time. http://smashboards.com/threads/the-hero-of-time-advanced-techniques.396058/#post-18818883

Shortly after I actually linked people to the first post and specifically state what it is again. http://smashboards.com/threads/link...-it-has-courage.370194/page-139#post-18850142

At this point I seem to be assuming that people don't need the full explanation, but it's definitely all there in plain sight. http://smashboards.com/threads/link...-it-has-courage.370194/page-139#post-18850405

If you look closely, you can actually pin-point the moment where I lost my sanity. http://smashboards.com/threads/link...shing-f-tilting-removed.398184/#post-18936618

Not to worry. The AT thread will inform everyone once and for all. Or so I thought. http://smashboards.com/threads/the-comprehensive-guide-to-links-ats.400585/#post-19072027

I just sort of slipped it in there this time. Because screw it, I may as well post about it in all of the threads. http://smashboards.com/threads/you-found-the-hint-glasses-q-a-and-faq.382114/page-5#post-19108242


Just recently I went to some lengths to make sure it gets shown in the next 'art of link' so maybe people will actually take notice this time. It's a shame that it would require something like that though. It makes one question exactly what is being accomplished here, this just another post among all too many.
I'm gonna use it at least 10 times in all my matches from now on, to make up for all the pain I've caused :'(

And just to repeat it again, this AT is awesome. Being able to soft-throw a bomb the same way you are running. I want to make a vid of it and some uses, but if Izaw is already doing it then meh.
 

Lawz.

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Zane the pure

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It's sad because while there isn't a scene in my region there are quite a bit of tournaments in other Italian regions, but I'm only 14 so I can't go to them and even if there were here in Veneto I doubt my parents would let me partecipate. And the saddest thing ever,I don't know anyone who plays smash. Like, not even casually. I played one. Single. Time. Offline. With someone that was playing smash for his first time. I feel bad. You have all
the right to call me a wifi scrub
Not to worry man, though it is flawed and cumbersome wifi isn't entirely useless. A neat way to catch some extra experience with the Link boards is too hangout here: http://xat.com/LinkSmashers and ask if anyone is down to play a few sets and help out.
I would suggest avoiding any pretense of training against the cpus since their reaction time for power shielding and OoS punishes are unrealistic, and outside of those programmed advantages they are pretty terrible. You've got plenty of youth to enjoy before you get too serious about leisure activities, so don't take it too hard.
 

Nimious

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If you had bothered to read what I wrote, I said that it puts you in a position where your opponent will no longer be able to charge their projectile due to threat of punishment. You shoot the arrow, they shield, and you approach. Then, if they try to charge it any more, you either do another SH arrow if they're still too far away, or you punish them. It's pretty simple, actually.
Yes, I read your terrible FG strategy. You seem to fear chargeable shots a lot, is that because you only play online?

Really, I find this funny to the point where I can't tell if I'm suppose to take you seriously but I will for at least this last post.

Characters with chargeable moves that they can store for later I believe are Samus, Wii Fit Trainer, Sheik, Robin, Pac Man, Rob Lucario, and Mewtwo. If I missed one feel free to point it out.

Of all of those characters only ONE cannot hop and charge at the same time, Samus. So your brilliant strategy is defeated if your opponent just full hops and charges because your SH arrow won't be hitting.... I use to do what you suggested over seven months ago at the start of the game but after one game my FG opponents would realize they could just jump over the slow arrow so that not only did I waste time shooting it but achieved nothing.

Oh of course, this is so simple. You must play against a lot of Samus then... despite them being an absolute rarity in the competitive scene.

I decided to run some tests in training mode, because we both apparently have a different concept of how fast Captain Falcon is. If you SH bomb pull from the start of the match, Captain Falcon will be able to start running ON REACTION when you're at the height of your short hop, and still get there in time to dash grab you WITHOUT DANGER OF PUNISHMENT on FD, Smashville, Halberd, and Delfino. With Town & City, he has to start running at the start of the match in order to get there in time, but he can still easily retreat (roll back) if you don't do your short hop bomb pull without getting punished for trying. Duck Hunt was the only flat start stage (in other words, a stage where the characters don't start on any platforms) that Captain Falcon could never get there in time.

Full hopping then pulling your bomb does net different results, but you have to be pretty accurate on your timing if you don't want to get grabbed. Also, Captain falcon has even more time to react than if you SH bomb pull. If you full hop, the only option for you to not get grabbed on the aforementioned stages is a forward thrown bomb while you're still in the air. If you mistime the bomb throw however, the bomb goes over Falcon's head (due to his dash grab animation making him duck a little), and he grabs you. Z dropping and throwing the bomb down didn't work due to the nature of Captain Falcon's dash grab's slide which passes the bomb without an issue.
I don't even.... Look even if you SH bomb pull the earliest indication the CF has of you pulling the bomb is when Link reaches his hand back. He would possibly make it in this scenario if your SH was without direction. However if you think he can make it you SH back in which case he won't be able to make it to grab you if this is still on reaction.

Even then are we still talking about competitive players? Why would a competitive CF do this then? If Link SH back and bomb pulls properly the CF is gambling heavily. By the time he commits to his dash grab he's put himself in a very vulnerable position. If Link SH back and grabs ledge he can just jump over, bomb toss down into FF Nair into an Up-tilt chain. I don't think Link even has to grab the ledge in this scenario as well and can opt for a spot dodge or roll.

However as I already mentioned full hop is an option that you somehow believe to be so dangerous....

Turns out you were underestimating Falcon's speed, like I assumed.
I've played against more CFs, online and offline than any other character so I'm certainly not underestimating them. On the other hand I admittedly have not played many competitive Samus players so perhaps you know better concerning their charged shots and whatever.

That's funny coming from someone who apparently doesn't know the matchup against the most overplayed character in Smash 4. Are you sure you play Link against good competitive players? Players that are significantly better than the terrible DDD you faced in the video you linked? Because all the advice you've given thus far would never work in my local scene.
I posted that friendly up to show that I'm a competent Link but apparently some relaxed friendlies against one player is now indicative of my local scene? Huh. How messed up are you?

Yes yes, I'm sure all the advice I've given thus far would not work in your local scene because pulling a bomb at the start of the match must be banned in your scene or something. My advice on not approaching also apparently doesn't work so most people must be playing Samus or something right? Or maybe I have everything wrong as everyone runs at you from the start of the match because you've apparently garnered zero respect from them with your Link play.

Thanks for the laughs at least :).

Edit: I decided to watch some of your videos to gauge your experience and try and understand you but stopped after a minute of it. I understand they're over two months old but still. One match you started with a Dair...? The other against a CF you do the worst possible thing which is a standing bomb pull. However the CF shielded right away giving you respect as most players would... You also roll and spam rolls for no reason.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjcd0dyGhV8

Well, I really hope you've improved.
 
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KenMeister

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It's sad because while there isn't a scene in my region there are quite a bit of tournaments in other Italian regions, but I'm only 14 so I can't go to them and even if there were here in Veneto I doubt my parents would let me partecipate. And the saddest thing ever,I don't know anyone who plays smash. Like, not even casually. I played one. Single. Time. Offline. With someone that was playing smash for his first time. I feel bad. You have all
the right to call me a wife scrub
On the bright side at least you're not 21 not only trying to play Smash whenever he can but goes to college full time and works a 30 hour job that hinders me from going to tournaments since I can't call weekends off unless it's 2 months notice (which hardly ever happens). Being your age is usually the best time to get into something like that, as your life only gets busier from then on. I didn't get into the competitive play till 2 years ago, as competitive smash didn't exist where I used to live. I'm pretty sure lots of people have it far worse than me when wanting to get into smash competitively this late, but it's a good thing you got into it while you're still young.
 
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Linkmario00

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Not to worry man, though it is flawed and cumbersome wifi isn't entirely useless. A neat way to catch some extra experience with the Link boards is too hangout here: http://xat.com/LinkSmashers and ask if anyone is down to play a few sets and help out.
I would suggest avoiding any pretense of training against the cpus since their reaction time for power shielding and OoS punishes are unrealistic, and outside of those programmed advantages they are pretty terrible. You've got plenty of youth to enjoy before you get too serious about leisure activities, so don't take it too hard.
I know wifi isn't useless. You're still against a human player and if the connection is decent you can actually learn something and try to mindgame and bait the opponent, but it's still wifi. I'm sure I would get wrecked offline. Ah,I'm already on xat.
While training with CPU is bad because they airdodge and Shield on reaction and their reaction time is ****ing frame 1 or 2 so it's impossible to read them and obv mindgame them it's still the only method I know to play some offline. Let's say I want to test a tech, I have to go against a CPU for having a moving opponent to deal with. That sucks.
And about the whole social life thing, why do you think I have always a lot of time to spend on the board? I have like 5 friends because I'm generally considered a nerd, and maybe they're right. Who the **** would spend time at memorising frame data, playstyle and random numbers from a stupid kiddish game at 14 years old after all?! I don't know, sometimes I have much more empathy for you guys than for some of my classmates. Maybe I'm asocial or something similar
 
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Be_Mild

Livin' life on the mild side
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I know I'm new here so I understand if you take my advice with a grain of salt, but that being said the biggest thing that stood out to me is that you seem to play very guess heavy rather than reactive and anticipating. Lots of whiffed smashes, tilts, and aerials where even if dumbfire tried to get hit by them he wouldn't get there in time. I'm at work so I didn't get to really dissect but I don't recall seeing very many handy stage-control ATs(like soft bomb throws, zair/fair ledge getups) either.
 

Elessar

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Yeah the stream is in Spanish.

I went Link a couple of matches and they changed the name to Nerf Link...so going Ryu again.
 

SoSoGreed

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The social has become quite poisonous the past few days. Or is it always like this, I can never remember.

But @ Linkmario00 Linkmario00 Man chill. All of the things you mentioned ain't the best things in life. They can really **** opportunities you can get later in life. Just relax and enjoy being young. I may not be that older but I can say for certain that not all of those things areas fun as they seem.
 

ama99

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I made @ ama99 ama99 get salty. GGs dude. You need practice. 6-1

I have the replays if you want them.
Wifi friendlies bro. Play me without lag next time.

Also, wasn't salty at all. Find it interesting how you keep track of W/L in a friendly set.
 
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Huggles828

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I made @ ama99 ama99 get salty. GGs dude. You need practice. 6-1

I have the replays if you want them.
@ FSK FSK . GG man I don't know the set number but I think it was 4-2 or something. Very technical player. I like that.
Is this supposed to impress us? Are you trying to show everyone how great you are? Look, here's the deal. We don't care about wifi. We don't care about it at all. I look at those numbers and see 0-0. I also see an arrogant prick who's just trying to brag, and about petty stuff too. Shut up. No one here likes you. You're a pain in the ass. You wanna earn some respect? Go to an offline tourney. Play good opponents. Place well. Don't give us "I have a bad/small tourney scene" johns. Good players get respect, even if it's begrudging respect. Wifi warriors don't, esepcially when they try to publicly shame members of the Link community by bragging about their wifi record for crying out loud. Until then, shut the **** up. You need to do work.
 
Joined
Mar 28, 2008
Messages
780
All of these people replying to obvious bait... Uncle Shin is disappointed. Thoroughly disappointed. Why you'd waste the time, I have no ****ing idea.
 
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