Let's **** that **** - learning how to play vs MK

[~ Gheb ~]

So we all know that MK is a terrible match-up for Wolf, right? But is he really that bad or are we just not trying hard enough? I think we just have to focus more on the match-up and certain aspects rather than come up with this "oh noes I can't beat him, let's ban him" crap. Personally I think this match-up will become a lot more managable if we'd really put some thought in it rather than just leave it as a hopeless case. Unlike the other two **** match-up's - Falco and D3 - there is no ******** game mechanic behind the Wolf vs MK match-up's that gives the opponent an unfair advantage. MK is just a much better character but that shouldn't keep us from learning that match-up's and just "use somebody else", who needed just as much effort and time to deal with MK (like Diddy did). Nobody expects a game breaking AT that magically turns this match-up into Wolfs favour to be found.

The purpose of this thread is to gather our knowledge and share it in order to discuss certain tactics that might be helpful. If you know how to beat certain moves and act in specific situations this match-up isn't unwinable in the sightest. Just don't lose your nerves while fighting!.

ANY INPUT IS APPRECIATED. IF YOU KNOW SOMETHING THAT might BE USEFUL, TELL US!!!

I NEED THE HELP OF THE WHOLE WOLF COMMUNITY FOR THIS!

... the OP will constantly be updated as long as you bring up helpful ideas. The more we can come with the better we can deal with MK and the easier it will be to advance Wolfs metagame!!! We have frame data for both charaters and we know which moves usually outrange each others so we have something to start with. Also certain patterns can be interrupted and counteracted if you know how to do it - learning how to do it: that's what this thread is all about.

Please, if you have any ideas about this match-up's and you know about certain things that work tell us about it, goddamit.

 

[castorpollux]

Nice thread. I was gonna make something like this but you beat me to it. Anyways, hit THIS part of the tornado with Wolf's back air.

(you have to come in from above)

Another tip. Save your double jump. If you get hit off the stage, do not jump back right away. DI towards the stage and then use your Up/Side B. Even if you get hit, you can still use ur double jump. It will make recovering much easier.


**Edit**

This thread should be stickied

 

[JOE!]

the laser stops every one of his B moves

not just the tornado

 

[Sesshomuronay]

I got something. If your stuck in the air and hes about to shuttle loop you if you time it right you can reflector the Up-B. It requires pretty precise timing tho.

And another thing avoid double jump metaknight will just **** you in the air cuz he can just tornado you. Stay grounded most of the time as metaknight just owns the air.

 

[Peachkid]

Awesome Discussion Topic Gheb, ill throw in a bit of imput about mk alittle later. plus some additional info from the stage thread

lets try to fix this broken monstrosity =D


Edit: Woooooo 600th post =D

 

[~ Gheb ~]

lets try to fix this broken monstrosity =D

I hate to say it but MK is not broken

 

[teekay]

Actually I think it's more than MK is broken, but there are enough other broken characters that it balances out. Brawl is just a broken game in general. A broken beautiful mess that I love.

I got something. If your stuck in the air and hes about to shuttle loop you if you time it right you can reflector the Up-B. It requires pretty precise timing tho.

And another thing avoid double jump metaknight will just **** you in the air cuz he can just tornado you. Stay grounded most of the time as metaknight just owns the air.

You can also just air dodge it, which is much easier to time.

This is definitely a worthwhile thread. In my experience against MK the thing that is toughest to deal with is the fact that you have very, very few safe options against him. It's a lot harder to spam bair due to the fact that even though it does outrange him, he can still hit through it if he times it properly so your timing has to be PERFECT.

A lot of people say to stay out of the air vs. MK, but I always wonder: what do you do on the ground, exactly? You have no options against him on the ground that he can't punish. None. Aside from blaster, I guess, but it's very very easy for MK to get around blaster spam. At least with your aerials, you have a way of putting some amount of pressure on him that's difficult to punish, if you can somehow maneuver yourself into a desirable position.

My view is that this match has to be played very slowly, very carefully, and very defensively. You DO want to use aerials, but you have to pick and choose them much more carefully than you would against most opponents. Above all the most important thing is patience. It's never worth the risk of getting punished by MK, especially because it's so easy for him to gimp you once you're off the ledge. Every hit he scores pulls him much farther ahead than any hit you score. MK can gimp you at low %s, whereas you cannot gimp him ever. He knows your only dangerous KO option is your downsmash, which makes attempts to use it predictable.

Slow and steady is the only way to do it. I have actually scored more KOs against MKs using fair and fsmash than dsmash. In fact, I honestly think this may be the one matchup where you want to pull the opposite of the usual: actually use dsmash as a damage builder and fsmash as a finisher. It means that you have to get him higher for a KO, but slow and steady is already the only way to do this, and fsmash is a lot easier to land.

 

[-Jumpman-]

I'll read the thread in a second, but here's one: If MK (me) is on the edge and camping with jumps, just stand close to the edge and use a d-smash, it reaches under the edge.

Edit:
Playing style
If MK is pressuring you, just wait for the d-smash and punish, any MK that's not Mew2King or DSF will start playing recklessly or defensively, so you can punish more or space with bairs.

Slow and steady is the only way to do it. I have actually scored more KOs against MKs using fair and fsmash than dsmash. In fact, I honestly think this may be the one matchup where you want to pull the opposite of the usual: actually use dsmash as a damage builder and fsmash as a finisher. It means that you have to get him higher for a KO, but slow and steady is already the only way to do this, and fsmash is a lot easier to land.

I'm sorry to say this, but don't do this, your D-smash is so important in this matchup.

 

[Turbo Ether]

I never thought Wolf lost to MK worse than 35/65, i'm pretty sure Candy thinks Wolf doesn't get ***** either.

I learned from M2k that MK can punish MK's SH Fair on block with downsmash; Wolf might be able to do this too since his dsmash is similar, so test it out maybe.

Wolf is NOT massively outranged in this matchup. Smart use of blaster can disrupt his spacing and approaching. Refer to Arcpoint's 'Wolf's Safe Moves' thread, to figure out how to minimize how often you are punished.

If you know MK is going to attack you and you can't beat it, just shine him. Wolf can escape situational juggles more easily than most characters thanks to the shine.

Test if Wolf's Upair beats MK's Dair. Upair seems kinda disjointed.

Test Fair vs his aerials. Seems like Fair is consistent.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I agree with Jumpman. The dmsash is crucial as a KO move and it has more knockback than MKs dsmash. That means if you DI rigth and manage to survive MKs first attempt to KO you, you have a clear advantage over him, asa long as you have your dsmash fresh.

I think gimping is very overrated and is easy to get around. All you have to do is DI upwards. It brings you in a position above MK. This is usually a bad position but if you know when to use shine it's very managable. Most importantly MK has no move to put Wolf in a really gimpable position, although the bthrow might be bad...idk but you shouldn't get gimped that much if you know what to do.

@turbo ether

Yeah I know about the free dsmash, after a blocked fair. But idk if Wolfs dsmash is fast enough - there's one frame difference (dsmash has 5 iirc and wolf dsmash has 6) but i assume it'll work either way.


I also don't think it's worse than 65/35 but idc that much about numbers (anymore)

 

[-Jumpman-]

I also don't think it's worse than 65/35 but idc that much about numbers (anymore)

It won't be if people will co-operate. I hope this works out. I could tell you guys some stuff from the MK side.

 

[Ishiey]

Well, I've always wondered if an angled up ftilt could reach through a SH fair from MK. I can't test this out anytime soon, but it sounds feasable.

The thing is, a lot of MKs attacks are multi-hit attacks. If you SDI out of any of them you can punish him without much difficulty (especially the morons that use drill rush on stage), and good DI helps against the gimp a lot too. Also, I recall hearing that shuttle loop has crap priority, so try nairing or bairing when they try to shuttle loop you maybe? Finding out what aerials interrupt shuttle loop will be very helpful.

M2K wrote a thread somewhere, but I remember it said that the beginning of tornado pops people up, among other stuff. When you get popped up, shine or nair from the top where MK is vulnerable, or you can try to SDI onto the floor and shield the rest of it. MK really isn't broken, people just need to play smarter.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Shuttle Loop is invincible on 5 frames, Ishy. Whether it's priority sucks doesn't matter...it'll always win

 

[Turbo Ether]

You either need to hit it before or after frame 5, so it's tough. Would be great if Nair could beat it somehow.

 

[Ishiey]

Ummm..... yeah, it's only invincible on frame five, not up to frame five. I don't know exactly where in the loop frame 5 is, but it's only one frame, nairing would probably be worth the risk. I'll see if I can get a friend to test that stuff out with me, but its probably unlikely that I'll get any testing done.

 

[Grimga]

I really like to chain the down-b because reflector has priority on alot of moves and its great to stop your opponent in their actions.

 

[Villi]

MK's shuttle loop only has invincibility if he does it on the ground. Aerial shuttle loops have no invincibility frames.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Wow, that's good to know.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

That's old news Mofos. It has 3 invincibility frames (5-8) btw not just one. And please no random comments like "Shine is awesome". I ask for tips how to beat certain moves and how to counteract not "Shine beats all of his moves". Yeash, we know that already.

 

[castorpollux]

Let's say you are already caught in the tornado. What exactly is the best way to smash DI to get out of it?

 

[Sesshomuronay]

I usually go upwards and then try to air dodge. Theres probably a better way to do it tho.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Upwards + away is the way to DI the Nado correctly. Depending on where you pop out you can either bair or Shine...

 

[:034:]

I beat Jumpman's MK with Wolf and didn't think it was that hard... But I honestly don't remember how I did it. XD

 

[castorpollux]

lol jumpman seems to have a weakness against wolfs then XD

@gheb

So i should hold up on the control stick and spam side C to get out? Or am I doing something wrong

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I beat Jumpman's MK with Wolf and didn't think it was that hard... But I honestly don't remember how I did it. XD

You do strange stuff sometimes *refers to your sig*.

Lots of people in the Netherlands seem to have probs with Wolf lol, especially Jumpman...I should've known it. I would've taken Wolf over Bowser against his Meta

lol jumpman seems to have a weakness against wolfs then XD

No idea why. He beats everything else with his Meta ...

@gheb

So i should hold up on the control stick and spam side C to get out? Or am I doing something wrong

Is that the way you're doing it? I can't do it consistently (yet) but I always press the C stick and the control stick in the same direction: Up + away...diagonally away. I'm not sure though...mosst of the time I do it purely on reaction and I don't always get out at the same spot.

Arn't there any vids of it? That might be helpful. Or read through M2Ks "Tips vs MK" thread.

 

[-Jumpman-]

I do have some kind of weakness >.< I have no idea why. But I do decent against everyone else.

@FD: you did?!

 

[Ishiey]

Interesting, I thought it was only one frame... Still, good stuff to know.

For tornado, if I'm near the bottom I try to SDI to the floor and shield the rest of it, in the middle I try to get out the side and then shield, and from the top I try to SDI up or sideways (depending on whats closer) and jump. It works well enough for me, but I actually don't have that much MK practice, so yeah.

 

[-Jumpman-]

Interesting, I thought it was only one frame... Still, good stuff to know.

For tornado, if I'm near the bottom I try to SDI to the floor and shield the rest of it, in the middle I try to get out the side and then shield, and from the top I try to SDI up or sideways (depending on whats closer) and jump. It works well enough for me, but I actually don't have that much MK practice, so yeah.

Whenever I use the tornado I move to the left and right so the opponent can SDI out to the sides.

 

[JCav]

omni showed me with the nado that if you rise at the right time, you cant sdi out of it

 

[AssaultX]

Don't you pop out over the tornado if you don't SDI out at all? Or at least, if you're right in the center of it?

 

[CO18]

Wolf doesn't get ***** by MK :/ I know alot of people who use him specifcally for MK. He has the tools to beat him.
I also don't think his matchp vs Falco is bad. Besides the CG to spike Wolf can outspace him and **** him.
ANTI's strat vs Falco's showin in his vid vs D1 one of the best falco's on the EC is real legit and I think makes the matchup even, probably slightly in wolf's favor.

Dedede on the other hand... ***** him

 

[§witch]

The way Anti played it doesn't change the match-up really. He played it really intelligently; but one match vs one falco does not in any way change the match-up.

 

[CO18]

The way Anti played it doesn't change the match-up really. He played it really intelligently; but one match vs one falco does not in any way change the match-up.

The fact is that without cg-->spike falco doesn't have the advantage over wolf and that can be avoided.

You can also see this in Lucien vs sk92 besides the cg-->spike lucien was really taking it hard to sk.

D1 is basically top2/3 falco on the EC and ANTI was basically doing him in and still won after getting cg to spiked 2nd stock which was due to him not sticking to his strat.

ITs just ur probably quite wrong about the matchup like most char matchups etc are.
Most of these char matchup rakings are based off theory and what people struggle with against their friends regardless if they dont have alot of skill or not.

Not saying you're not good or anything im just speaking in general and 2 top players with their respective characters probably show the matchup alot better such as in this case.

 

[Ishiey]

CO18 is pretty good with matchup knowledge. Chainspike is a pain though, either way.

Anyways, back to MK. Since wolf might be able to outrange (or at least trade hits with) MK and has better aerial control, would someone with really good spacing be somewhat sane in going offstage to edgeguard MK? I mean, if you trade hits, wolf wins either way...

 

[CO18]

CO18 is pretty good with matchup knowledge. Chainspike is a pain though, either way.

Anyways, back to MK. Since wolf might be able to outrange (or at least trade hits with) MK and has better aerial control, would someone with really good spacing be somewhat sane in going offstage to edgeguard MK? I mean, if you trade hits, wolf wins either way...

I wouldn't consider that sane lol. It would be too risky imo unless you know the back air will kill MK because hes at a really high percent.

 

[ElPadrino]

Here's my 2 cents:

I like using retreating AC Fair A LOT against MKs, for some reason it's the safest move you can use.

Shine, shine and shine again. Seriously MK can't do **** against your shine, and it give you a lot of breathing space and throws MK off his game.

I find that if you get caught on the tornado DIing diagonal up (like Gheb said) is the best choice, and insted of using shine right after getting out I'd rather fastfall and punish from the ground, (situational though) or Bair.

Every time I've tried F-tilting MK's Fair I get hit instead, so I wouldn't recomend it.

This is one of the very few matches I blaster spam, again MK can't do **** against your blaster except jump it or roll it and you can punish him when he aproaches with a Dmash on block, so yeah spam blaster intelligently and you'll have overal control in this match.

Hope that is of some use.

 

[castorpollux]

ITs just ur probably quite wrong about the matchup like most char matchups etc are.
Most of these char matchup rakings are based off theory and what people struggle with against their friends regardless if they dont have alot of skill or not.

Not saying you're not good or anything im just speaking in general and 2 top players with their respective characters probably show the matchup alot better such as in this case.

QFT

10characters

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Good **** CO18
Yea D3 is Wolfs hardest match-up's by far but the more Falcos and MKs I play the more optimistic I become about them being not that bad.


@jimbo

Could please explain that closer? I've always been able to sdi out. How is it possible for MK to prevent that???

 

[NinjaLink]

Hate to tell y'all but u also have to consider the fact Anti vs D1 was played on a laggy LCD TV but of course no one would say that.

Anyway does anyone want me to post vids to help out vs MK?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Please post them NL. Maybe we can find useful stuff from analysing it.

Since a lot of people seem to be interested in helping, I'll add a "thank you" list in the OP later.