Let's talk about the HAD again

[Kix]

What didn't it fix that everyone was complaining about? The very existence of WDing? WDing looks funny and it didn't in Melee? With all of the mergers, what code length do you need to have? What happens if there is a enough room for it?

So people say we don't need another form of approach even though it just makes the game less linear. There really isn't any reason it would be broken now. It can't be stacked, which everyone was complaining about. Your air defense is slightly different but practically the same concept.

we gain

-wavelanding
-ability to approach with moves differently
-ability to get around hitboxes differently
-unblockables from footstool to dodging into the ground into a move

Why would the very existence of WDing alienate players? If there were some really bad matchups, they might still be bad but more winnable, is that alienating?

 

[Blank Mauser]

Actually we're planning to nerf BAD, so I don't think we need it anymore. It's cool, but not really necessary with a lot of new codes coming out. Some people have been discussing possible ways to replace everything wavedashing was useful for and all of it is pretty promising.

Besides that, a lot of characters really don't need that much stage control. Its like turning everyone into Melee Luigi (Who I main which is why I proly clung to the code in the first place). I'm pretty hyped and looking forward to other codes now.

 

[Kix]

Actually we're planning to nerf BAD, so I don't think we need it anymore. It's cool, but not really necessary with a lot of new codes coming out. Some people have been discussing possible ways to replace everything wavedashing was useful for and all of it is pretty promising.

Besides that, a lot of characters really don't need that much stage control. Its like turning everyone into Melee Luigi (Who I main which is why I proly clung to the code in the first place). I'm pretty hyped and looking forward to other codes now.

It's not necessary, but based upon what people were complaining about it solved the problem. Not everyone has the same distance WD and have fun trying to get the max immediate one on one frame buffer. I don't see why you would use it in every circumstance or how you could even use it that much to be Melee Luigi.

Basically I heard of jump momentum and FF canceling, which would replace some but not all of its uses and I'm sure even then it wouldn't really work the same. Unless the FF canceling is put in, which seems drastic, why would we do something else to yield the similar result when it is sitting there? I actually think the nerfed BAD would be superior but it sounds like less people would like that.

It goes like this: no WDing, it hurts the airgame. Yet I didn't see Kupo accepting the HAD but I might have missed something.

 

[kupo15]

It buffs everyones recovery.....why? And with the momentum code I wouldn't be surprised if you can wavedash as bowser and get more air speed than what you should be getting. Not sure if this is true or not

It goes like this: no WDing, it hurts the airgame. Yet I didn't see Kupo accepting the HAD but I might have missed something.

Yes I don't like HAD because it doesn't fit the game and it makes the game very sloppy and more defensive. It also limits zoning tactics from characters which is not good.

 

[GPDP]

HAD is extremely unlikely to make it into any official codeset.

That said, I would still like a patched-up version for fun. But the sliding is just too excessive. Hopefully we'll be getting a friction mod sometime in the near future to fix that.

What HAD needs is landing lag, so that you cannot perform another action upon wavedashing for a number of frames (10 or so). That way, the shield won't come up all the bloody time.

 

[Archangel]

At this point I'm all for a Separate but Equal Brawl+. Fix the timer in HAD as well as make them less stackable in MAD. If we reach the point of a Tourney we'll have 2 separate but equal tourney's at different times in case some enter both. The winners of each have the chance to claim the ultimate prize in a Unified smash match in that match alone HAD would be used.....I think that would be cool. It's not like we'll have much to do want's we've finished everything else...might as well fix MAD and HAD.

 

[Kix]

It buffs everyones recovery.....why? And with the momentum code I wouldn't be surprised if you can wavedash as bowser and get more air speed than what you should be getting. Not sure if this is true or not

That's the one thing I was waiting to see pointed out. It buffs recovery but with potential lag if you don't do it the edge and I think it might before you suction. We also have NASP.

I'm not just arguing for it because of the WD by itself.

Yes I don't like HAD because it doesn't fit the game and it makes the game very sloppy and more defensive. It also limits zoning tactics from characters which is not good.

Not fitting doesn't really matter if it increases game depth. Things 'don't fit' all of the time. Bowser's infinite jump seemingly didn't fit. What does it really limit? You mean that if you have the lag at the end it isn't punishable and that it messes up some techniques? Like what?

HAD is extremely unlikely to make it into any official codeset.

That said, I would still like a patched-up version for fun. But the sliding is just too excessive. Hopefully we'll be getting a friction mod sometime in the near future to fix that.

What HAD needs is landing lag, so that you cannot perform another action upon wavedashing for a number of frames (10 or so). That way, the shield won't come up all the bloody time.

It seems to be the case because people end up not wanting it even if what they don't like is solved. You cannot preform another WD as far as I know right after or you do a BAD. How is the sliding 'excessive' and what do you mean?

 

[leafgreen386]

Let's talk about the HAD again

Let's not.

We have so many other codes that this is completely and utterly unnecessary anymore... and it was never necessary to begin with. Really, the only way you could think that it "solves all problems" with MAD is if you're very narrow-sighted and closed-minded. This game can work without HAD, and it will work better that way. You do not need wavedashing for brawl+ to be good.

Honestly, I'm sick of this conversation. HAD has been shot down. It's done. Over with. To be no more. The community has accepted BAD overall, and continuing to talk about HAD is just a waste of our time.

 

[kupo15]

as in, you can escape more zoning techniques than you should be able to escape. That is LESS depth

 

[Blank Mauser]

It's not necessary, but based upon what people were complaining about it solved the problem. Not everyone has the same distance WD and have fun trying to get the max immediate one on one frame buffer. I don't see why you would use it in every circumstance or how you could even use it that much to be Melee Luigi.

Basically I heard of jump momentum and FF canceling, which would replace some but not all of its uses and I'm sure even then it wouldn't really work the same. Unless the FF canceling is put in, which seems drastic, why would we do something else to yield the similar result when it is sitting there? I actually think the nerfed BAD would be superior but it sounds like less people would like that.

It goes like this: no WDing, it hurts the airgame. Yet I didn't see Kupo accepting the HAD but I might have missed something.

There are other ways to replace wavedash using mechanics that make sense though. After messing with some frame manipulation codes we've found out we can skip the ledgejump animation to land on the ledge laglessly like a waveland, and I'm trying to start some interest in DAC moves for any attack. It can only be used for spacing an attack, but using it for movement would most likely get you punished.

As for wavelanding it was mainly for mindgames and BAD allows a whole lot more mindgames because its now safe to double jump without getting ***** off stage and a lot of other things. Really I'm trying to push for better platform canceling, work with its timing more, make it work on more stages.

And my characters, they don't need the buffs from wavedashing anymore. Removing the third jump lag helps Pika a lot, and I enjoy abusing his QAC. Sonic is looking better with the new UpGrav changes and aerial momentum should make him really fun to play once its perfected.

After BAD is nerfed a little I'd be happy. And while everyone may not have the exact same friction with their wavedashes, the lengths of them hardly vary unless you cancel them with crawl by accident. Its just not worth it nor is it too interesting to support MAD/HAD anymore with shinier codes here to take their place.

 

[storm92]

Can we please stop it with the HAD discussion again?
Orca, the main proponent of HAD, agreed with everyone that we would get the MUCH more important codes worked on and perfected first before we tried to add anything that might be beneficial. What's funny is most people don't even think its necessary, and a good amount still don't see it being better overall.
He closed the thread with cooperation, come on now.

 

[plasmatorture]

Nah, let's talk about something else.

 

[Kix]

Let's not.

We have so many other codes that this is completely and utterly unnecessary anymore... and it was never necessary to begin with. Really, the only way you could think that it "solves all problems" with MAD is if you're very narrow-sighted and closed-minded. This game can work without HAD, and it will work better that way. You do not need wavedashing for brawl+ to be good.

Honestly, I'm sick of this conversation. HAD has been shot down. It's done. Over with. To be no more. The community has accepted BAD overall, and continuing to talk about HAD is just a waste of our time.

I have always said it isn't necessary but it can make the game less linear in many ways. Did I not just mention what people were complaining about MAD? The stacking? The air game?

I never said the game couldn't be good, I just said the game could be much better. You and a lot of people like to say things are 'shot down' without any real argument.

as in, you can escape more zoning techniques than you should be able to escape. That is LESS depth

Such as? It can be countered, doesn't that put the depth back up? Isn't there some strategy in using it/countering it?

How was everything else I mentioned not a big increase in depth?

 

[Shell]

As others have said, we've pretty much closed the book on HAD.

However, after a final non-beta is released with character balances and such, I will re-open brainstorming on possible spacing tools, not to be confused with movement tools. Several people have expressed interest, or at least neutrality at the concept. I admit that it looks like it may not be necessary now, but we will talk about it later.

 

[Archangel]

as in, you can escape more zoning techniques than you should be able to escape. That is LESS depth

nothing personal but I really get the feeling more and more that Brawl+ is Kupo's game. I have felt it since I first showed here and it's a feeling I just can't shake. I could be wrong but to let you know your response to everything you disagree with makes you sound selfish and egocentric. Basically you don't care what anyone else thinks. What you say is divine law passed down to you from god himself If you don't want this image sticking to you then maybe you should try to sound less like a policeman.

 

[Kix]

There are other ways to replace wavedash using mechanics that make sense though. After messing with some frame manipulation codes we've found out we can skip the ledgejump animation to land on the ledge laglessly like a waveland, and I'm trying to start some interest in DAC moves for any attack. It can only be used for spacing an attack, but using it for movement would most likely get you punished.

I do not see how it doesn't make sense regardless of how it is done. You land into momentum and slide.

As for wavelanding it was mainly for mindgames and BAD allows a whole lot more mindgames because its now safe to double jump without getting ***** off stage and a lot of other things. Really I'm trying to push for better platform canceling, work with its timing more, make it work on more stages.

So the mindgames and getting around hitboxes disappears? Getting in on a character strategically that has some really annoying hitbox by 'triangle jumping' as leaf puts it doesn't exist otherwise.

The unblockables don't exist unless we have the FF cancel which could also hurt the games in ways I have not seen with what we are currently talking about. Any replacement still lacks some of the other uses.

As others have said, we've pretty much closed the book on HAD.

However, after a final non-beta is released with character balances and such, I will re-open brainstorming on possible spacing tools, not to be confused with movement tools. Several people have expressed interest, or at least neutrality at the concept. I admit that it looks like it may not be necessary now, but we will talk about it later.

I'm re-opening the book and still don't see good reason for ditching this yet. What other codes are more important that don't change the game very much? Remember that we don't want to alienate people even if we have the chance to make the game superior.

 

[storm92]

nothing personal but I really get the feeling more and more that Brawl+ is Kupo's game. I have felt it since I first showed here and it's a feeling I just can't shake. I could be wrong but to let you know your response to everything you disagree with makes you sound selfish and egocentric. Basically you don't care what anyone else thinks. What you say is divine law passed down to you from god himself If you don't want this image sticking to you then maybe you should try to sound less like a policeman.

...sorry, but no.
It's a community effort, kupo was just cool enough to step up and organize the Brawl+ Code Agenda thread, and he's very active in the debates.

Also, we don't really care anymore what anyone thinks on HAD.
It's over with, so can we please shut up about it, it's annoying.

 

[kupo15]

please, lets not waste the communities time with HAD anymore or the hacker's time anymore right now at least. There are plenty other more important codes that take precedent.

nothing personal but I really get the feeling more and more that Brawl+ is Kupo's game. I have felt it since I first showed here and it's a feeling I just can't shake. I could be wrong but to let you know your response to everything you disagree with makes you sound selfish and egocentric. Basically you don't care what anyone else thinks. What you say is divine law passed down to you from god himself If you don't want this image sticking to you then maybe you should try to sound less like a policeman.

Haha you got that assumption from me pulling out a good counter argument presented in the past? And people usually agree with me and me with them so its not "Kupo's game"

 

[Archangel]

...sorry, but no.
It's a community effort, kupo was just cool enough to step up and organize the Brawl+ Code Agenda thread, and he's very active in the debates.

Also, we don't really care anymore what anyone thinks on HAD.
It's over with, so can we please shut up about it, it's annoying.

no disrespect to kupo...or yourself. I'm just saying how can the community grow if you put everything in a small box and swat everyone else down? As far as HAD goes I agree for now it should be shutdown until "All those other codes" are taking care of but believe me we will be back here again. Might as well prepare for an all out Brawl war. Or simply create 2 versions. Be bold. Let you balls hang out. When Brawl+ is finished then work on MAD and HAD. Then release a Melee 2.0 Codeset. Use HAD in a championship even only between Brawl+ and Melee 2.0. That way we keep EVERYONE as well as bring in some fearful Brawl players and some long gone Melee players.

 

[Kix]

Also, we don't really care anymore what anyone thinks on HAD.

Well that was pretty clear with MAD too regardless of anything anybody said about it.

please, lets not waste the communities time with HAD anymore or the hacker's time anymore right now at least. There are plenty other more important codes that take precedent.

How is it a waste of time? Where is anyone that can comprehend the technical implications of MAD or HAD? What is really imperative to making the game good at this point that doesn't exist. Can it be competitive as is? Then why are you adding anything? If you are saying that you are adding to make it better, that's what I'm presenting now. No one really presents any counter arguments and after the transition from MAD to HAD in discussion it is clear that many of you didn't care if what you were complaining about was solved.

 

[kupo15]

How is it a waste of time? Where is anyone that can comprehend the technical implications of MAD or HAD? What is really imperative to making the game good at this point that doesn't exist. Can it be competitive as is? Then why are you adding anything? If you are saying that you are adding to make it better, that's what I'm presenting now. No one really presents any counter arguments and after the transition from MAD to HAD in discussion it is clear that many of you didn't care if what you were complaining about was solved.

Because no one feels that its needed to be competitive? Have you been reading your responses to this thread and to the other HAD threads? It should be clear no one really cares about HAD right now and no one feels it really does anything. You can't deny there are more important aspects to fix than HAD

 

[storm92]

Because we've argued this to death.
Seriously, this is past beating a dead horse.
Just please, for the sake of everyone's sanity, stop.
Please.

 

[Kix]

Because no one feels that its needed to be competitive? Have you been reading your responses to this thread? It should be clear no one really cares about HAD right now and no one feels it really does anything. You can't deny there are more important aspects to fix than HAD

Who feels that a lot of things that have been added, or are going to be added are needed for it to be competitive? Why are you messing with character gravity? Is that necessary? Is it necessary to have a better working tech roll for the game to be competitive? Is this about just making the game competitively viable or a BETTER game? What are the important aspects that need to be fixed? How about for making the game competitive? Or were those just to make the game better?

I have provided you with FACTS as to what it does. It isn't a matter of opinion.

Because we've argued this to death.
Seriously, this is past beating a dead horse.
Just please, for the sake of everyone's sanity, stop.
Please.

You sure have. Did it go like this; one person presents facts as to why something will substantially add to the game and then everyone else just says they don't like it? Leave the thread.

 

[Archangel]

Haha you got that assumption from me pulling out a good counter argument presented in the past? And people usually agree with me and me with them so its not "Kupo's game"

I guess you got me but still....It seemed Muba had to fistfight you in order to get his codeset up. I understand Brawl+ will never take off if we list 50 different codesets. However why not let everyone test it out without you or anyone using there position's to convince people 1 way or the other and when all is said and done we vote on an "official" codeset....deal? Or are you afraid you'll be voted out?

 

[leafgreen386]

I never said the game couldn't be good, I just said the game could be much better. You and a lot of people like to say things are 'shot down' without any real argument.

Why should I waste my time writing an essay saying something you've already heard and ignored time and time again? We've had enough of this debate... and we've won. After probably the longest debate this community has had, the large majority are with us and not you. I and apparently many others don't care enough to debate with you about this properly anymore. I have better things to do than teach you why HAD sucks while you don't listen.

 

[goodoldganon]

I came in here expecting an intellectual debate about the Historical Astronomy Division and I was sorely let down. Thanks for getting my hopes up TC.

 

[Kix]

Why should I waste my time writing an essay saying something you've already heard and ignored time and time again? We've had enough of this debate... and we've won. After probably the longest debate this community has had, the large majority are with us and not you. I and apparently many others don't care enough to debate with you about this properly anymore. I have better things to do than teach you why HAD sucks while you don't listen.

What have I ignored? Restate it, once, if you can. If the points were really existent someone would repost them.

Just because I haven't posted in a thread doesn't mean I am not reading them. Or like the MAD discussion we could just say I wasn't involved even though I was and I am saying now that people's main issues should be solved if what their beef was with the MAD was stated.

-The code length isn't as much of an argument anymore now if we get mergers and get new mergers. Additionally, these codes could be improved upon and even potentially made less lines. Also we could potentially get a higher line limit.

-The air game now that BAD is back doesn't really seem to hold any weight, even though it was just opinion in the first place. This should have made some happy.

-Stacking fixed.

Now why have none of my points been addressed? No one even tested the unblockable thing very much if at all and it seems like the entire uses weren't even tested much.

 

[Archangel]

Why should I waste my time writing an essay saying something you've already heard and ignored time and time again? We've had enough of this debate... and we've won. After probably the longest debate this community has had, the large majority are with us and not you. I and apparently many others don't care enough to debate with you about this properly anymore. I have better things to do than teach you why HAD sucks while you don't listen.

A large portion of the argument hasn't started yet. Not until Brawl is no longer an underground project. The fact that it has it's own section is a start. Most of the Original Brawl+r's are Butthurt Brawl players who have been mentally hurt by MK's and Snake's in Brawl or Butt rapped by really good tech skill players in Melee. As it stands now they are the Majority. Want to make their own game with out ****** meta knights or life changing techskill.... Understandable. However The Melee community (Most of which haven't been to brawl in Months let alone Brawl+ or others that quit because they put all their hope in Brawl and it failed them) They have yet to show up yet. Some of them will leap at the chance to do this again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YC1XAEsKr_s

 

[NinjaFoxX]

if fox cant do THIS, then we dont need HAD nor MAD

code not perfected, moving on...

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

A large portion of the argument hasn't started yet. Not until Brawl is no longer an underground project. The fact that it has it's own section is a start. Most of the Original Brawl+r's are Butthurt Brawl players who have been mentally hurt by MK's and Snake's in Brawl or Butt rapped by really good tech skill players in Melee. As it stands now they are the Majority. Want to make their own game with out ****** meta knights or life changing techskill.... Understandable. However The Melee community (Most of which haven't been to brawl in Months let alone Brawl+ or others that quit because they put all their hope in Brawl and it failed them) They have yet to show up yet. Some of them will leap at the chance to do this again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YC1XAEsKr_s

wow, man. seriously? is this a serious statement or are you just a joke character?

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

I'm all for Nerfing MK to the Max. It's wrong but as punishment I say we nerf him till he's effectively the worse character in the game. Give him a taste of C'Falcon's life.

Most of the Original Brawl+r's are Butthurt Brawl players who have been mentally hurt by MK's and Snake's in Brawl or Butt rapped by really good tech skill players in Melee.

 

[Archangel]

if fox cant do THIS, then we dont need HAD nor MAD

code not perfected, moving on...

I don't no if you noticed or not but they are HACKING THE GAME. they can take out whatever is broken. I think Ice Climber's infinite grab combo was more annoying. I've fought and won/loss against cheesy Falco/Fox players before. I hate them but I'm not going to complain. Even if I lost all 100 I'd gladly match tech levels with that Fox player even if I lost 100/100 matches. However If hacked right we could remove stackable shields and infinite 0-death combo's/grab combo's It requires time(for hackers) and an Imagination(for haters)

wow, man. seriously? is this a serious statement or are you just a joke character?

I'm not a Joke character. I simply posted a random Melee fight. I have lots saved. I'm not a how too person that can read things out of a book. I did much of my learning simply from watching pro's....In fact I've even watched and saved a number of Brawl+ vids. This is my favorite Brawl+ vid so far.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_62mYEfoPP8&feature=channel_page

look familiar?

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

I'm referring to the statement where you said that the people working on the Brawl+ project "are scared of MK" (which is why he's not going to be nerfed as hard as people think he should be), "didn't have tech skill in melee" (which is why we added combos and no-ASL and made the game faster paced), and that "the melee scene hasn't shown up" (and which is why half the members in the brawl+ backroom are melee pros).

besides the fact that every single one of those statements are completely wrong, you basically insulted everyone who has worked on the project and insinuated that none of us are suited to be working on it in the first place.

thanks! we're glad you enjoy the game. have fun!

 

[Archangel]

I'm referring to the statement where you said that the people working on the Brawl+ project "are scared of MK" (which is why he's not going to be nerfed as hard as people think he should be), "didn't have tech skill in melee" (which is why we added combos and no-ASL and made the game faster paced), and that "the melee scene hasn't shown up" (and which is why half the members in the brawl+ backroom are melee pros).

besides the fact that every single one of those statements are completely wrong, you basically insulted everyone who has worked on the project and insinuated that none of us are suited to be working on it in the first place.

thanks! we're glad you enjoy the game. have fun!

I don't want to sound like a **** but I was just stating what I feel is the truth and at 12:50 AM, I'm slightly tired and really don't have time to find the kind words to explain things so I just said everything as fast as possible while trying to get my point a crossed. I didn't intentionally insinuate that none of you shouldn't or are unfit to work on the project. I'm honestly not sure why we are arguing. You said it yourself, "We are nerfing MK" Wouldn't happen if he wasn't broken. Adding combo's and no-ASL makes things faster and far better but I still feels to me like a substitute for things like Wavelanding. The Meteor cancel is Broken right now and so is the teching code from what I hear. You got me in 1 area though. I should rephrase what I said about Melee players showing up. I like to consider myself a melee player although I couldn't afford to play pro(at the time No money and to much school to go to tourney's ) However I have plenty of friends both personal and Online friends that quit the series entirely and are reluctant to join Brawl+ because the lack of Advanced tech skill. Even though some of it such as L-cancel is now automatic. All due respect to the pro's but they don't define "The melee scene IMO" The Melee Scene is made up of all those that played Melee, in Tourney's or at home with friends or roommates in dorms. The more Melee players showed up the more likely an argument will break out again and again. With different players saying the same thing. I will say it 1 more time. When Brawl+ is basically done Maybe by September or October then why not just finish MAD and HAD and Make a Melee 2.0? It doesn't sound like much to ask. Sense you've basically sent MAD or HAD approve'rs to the back of the bus....

 

[storm92]

Thing is, its the same few people who have been around who keep bringing up this topic.
You won't get the involvement of most of the B+ community in this, I'm just giving you a heads up there.

 

[kupo15]

I don't no if you noticed or not but they are HACKING THE GAME.

Wait, so you are not with us just trolling? Clarification please.

 

[NinjaFoxX]

Wait, so you are not with us just trolling? Clarification please.

he thinks the vid i posted is fake>.>

 

[kupo15]

he thinks the vid i posted is fake>.>

hmmmmmmmmm.....-___________-

That does say something

 

[NinjaFoxX]

hmmmmmmmmm.....-___________-

That does say something

it says hes trolling>.>

 

[Kei_Takaro]

didn't like HAD, not one bit