Let's talk about Pokemon Stadium 2.

[san.]

What makes this one of the best stages into the game?

Platform placement. As far as I know, the sides/underside don't have any problematic issues either.

No top platform like battlefield. No possibility of platforms going way off to the side like Smashville and T&C. 2 small side platforms imo are better than 1 small platform in the middle. I *think* the height of the platforms are slightly too high, but that's it.

 

[Nintendrone]

Regardless of how awesome the 8-player form is, I don't think it's worth it because the normal form is just fine. I feel that making a rule just for one stage is unnecessary when we could just play on the normal form with no hassle.

 

[Ulevo]

This thread is not for discussing 8-player Pokemon Stadium 2.

 

[S0 B00sted]

Personally I think that if there was only one transformation that caused major issues it'd be okay to leave the stage legal. But since two transformations have glaring issues that significantly alter gameplay, that's 50% of the transformations which are problematic. Therefore I'm going to have to vote to ban it.

 

[clydeaker]

This stage is probably one of the most controversial stages in Brawl and Smash 4. In Brawl it was usually banned. But in my opinion it's not as bad as it was in Brawl. I think it's a decent counter pick. It's not like people who hate it so much will likely ever play it.

 

[Neutricity]

Brawl jank is not in Smash 4 so I think this stage should be given a solid try.

 

[Stromp]

I feel like almost everyone who played brawl competitively has a bias opinion on the subject because pokemon stadium 2 was almost always banned in brawl.

I never really played brawl competitively but I still think it's a jank stage in general

 

[Neutricity]

I never really played brawl competitively but I still think it's a jank stage in general

I understand exactly where you're coming from, but I see legalized stages that exist now that are jank.
I think Delfino, Halberd, and Duck Hunt are strong in the jank department and I feel as though PS2 should be given a shot at the very least.

 

[Stromp]

I understand exactly where you're coming from, but I see legalized stages that exist now that are jank.
I think Delfino, Halberd, and Duck Hunt are strong in the jank department and I feel as though PS2 should be given a shot at the very least.

Fair enough. I'd like to see it tried at a smaller tournament first. I'm actually fine with duck hunt

 

[Neutricity]

Fair enough. I'd like to see it tried at a smaller tournament first. I'm actually fine with duck hunt

It has been tried in Georgia a bit and players here don't hate it. Its mostly indifference, but if people got more accustomed to that stage then I'm sure opinions would change. I think PS2 is the Mid-Tier/Low-Tier character counterpick because that stage's jank is in their favor.

Example: Villager's Tree and Pac-Man's fire hydrant does not move on the conveyor belt during the Electric transformation. I'm sure there could be some sort of set up for them and other characters.

 

[Stromp]

It has been tried in Georgia a bit and players here don't hate it. Its mostly indifference, but if people got more accustomed to that stage then I'm sure opinions would change. I think PS2 is the Mid-Tier/Low-Tier character counterpick because that stage's jank is in their favor.

Example: Villager's Tree and Pac-Man's fire hydrant does not move on the conveyor belt during the Electric transformation. I'm sure there could be some sort of set up for them and other characters.

I guess I would have to watch some high level players first hand to really decide if it should be considered. I still think some of the transformations are too jank

 

[Neutricity]

I guess I would have to watch some high level players first hand to really decide if it should be considered. I still think some of the transformations are too jank

I'm not sure if they are too jank or if they are not. What I would love to see is some testing so we can know once and for all.

 

[Stromp]

I'm not sure if they are too jank or if they are not. What I would love to see is some testing so we can know once and for all.

Eh honestly it would probably take more than one tournament to even decide weather it should stick around. Might skew results of tournaments early on. Got a link to any competitive PS2 gameplay?

 

[teluoborg]

Ulevo there was a topic about PS2 long ago and here's my answer :

The point : people consider PS2 transformations to promote degenerate gameplay, you don't. Not me, the community as a whole.
And since it's not a case as extreme as circle camping on Palutemple there's a lot more room for interpretation and personal preference, and unless people prove that degenerate strategies do or do not exist on this stage then the status quo will not change.
And saying "no it's not" "yes it is" and "you're bad" won't help you make people change their mind.

The problem is still the same : the proofs that PS2 doesn't promote degenerate gameplay are nowhere to be found, so the debate about its legality keeps revolving around opinions and personal preference and thus remains sterile.

PS2 will stay banned unless either 1-someone gets in the lab and finds the facts to prove it's not intrusive or 2-the clear majority of the community changes its opinion about it and decides it's not intrusive enough to get banned.

Have fun accomplishing either of those.

 

[Neutricity]

Ulevo there was a topic about PS2 long ago and here's my answer :

The problem is still the same : the proofs that PS2 doesn't promote degenerate gameplay are nowhere to be found, so the debate about its legality keeps revolving around opinions and personal preference and thus remains sterile.

PS2 will stay banned unless either 1-someone gets in the lab and finds the facts to prove it's not intrusive or 2-the clear majority of the community changes its opinion about it and decides it's not intrusive enough to get banned.

Have fun accomplishing either of those.

Yep, that sounds about right. At my next local, I'll go PS2 and get ScAtt, Neos, or someone likely to win to go there and record all the matches.

 

[clydeaker]

I understand exactly where you're coming from, but I see legalized stages that exist now that are jank.
I think Delfino, Halberd, and Duck Hunt are strong in the jank department and I feel as though PS2 should be given a shot at the very least.

Please explain to me why you think Duck Hunt is "jank" because I don't seem to quite understand your reasoning.

 

[Raijinken]

Please explain to me why you think Duck Hunt is "jank" because I don't seem to quite understand your reasoning.

30 year old movement patterns in randomly moving (but not spawning) projectile-eating entities that, if you DON'T go out of your way to hit at least one (influencing the Dog platform appearance timing and location) will cause the most psychologically ingrained troll laugh in the history of gaming. Also grass that obscures vision temporarily, thereby removing visual tells of what your opponent is doing.

In other words, it's not. The only thing I find bad about it personally is that you can just sit on that top tree and Mac can't do a thing about it. And apparently "Just ban it" is insufficient in case of some stages but not others.

Stadium 2 is automatically better than Halberd in that it does not take sides. Even as a stage liberal, I'm still (and will always be) confused as to why Halberd is legal while people are banning Castle Siege and Delfino.

Really, though. Stadium 2 is really fun. Obviously you should strike/ban it against certain characters, including the famous and incontestable Sheik, but it's entirely manageable for players who've fought there more than once. Ground form isn't even half as degenerate as Ground and Fire were in Stadium 1, yet that's STILL legal in Melee.

 

[clydeaker]

30 year old movement patterns in randomly moving (but not spawning) projectile-eating entities that, if you DON'T go out of your way to hit at least one (influencing the Dog platform appearance timing and location) will cause the most psychologically ingrained troll laugh in the history of gaming. Also grass that obscures vision temporarily, thereby removing visual tells of what your opponent is doing.

In other words, it's not. The only thing I find bad about it personally is that you can just sit on that top tree and Mac can't do a thing about it. And apparently "Just ban it" is insufficient in case of some stages but not others.

Stadium 2 is automatically better than Halberd in that it does not take sides. Even as a stage liberal, I'm still (and will always be) confused as to why Halberd is legal while people are banning Castle Siege and Delfino.

Really, though. Stadium 2 is really fun. Obviously you should strike/ban it against certain characters, including the famous and incontestable Sheik, but it's entirely manageable for players who've fought there more than once. Ground form isn't even half as degenerate as Ground and Fire were in Stadium 1, yet that's STILL legal in Melee.

Good points. I agree with you about Pokemon Stadium 2. Personally Duck Hunt doesn't bother me that much, but I do see your reasoning behind it. It's the ultimate Troll stage. Ha ha! Maybe if you don't like so much you could create a thread much like this one discussing it's legality. I fully support it.

 

[Charey]

I've played a bunch on this stage as it was legal at the weekly I went to for a while. It did get banned after it was proven to be a terrible stage for competitive play. I did vote for this stage to be legal when this poll was put up but now want to change my vote after playing on the stage for a couple on months.

The base form is great, but none of the transformations are good only varying degrees of bad.

Of the transformations, the Ice form is the one that is the least problematic for making PS2 legal. It makes combos/OoS options harder but overall plays mostly the same with looser physics.

The Flying stage makes short hopping useless because you just start floating making any aerial approach more risky then it should be limiting useful options of the cast by a good amount.

The Ground stage is a camper haven with the hill in the center making it so you have no good way to approach over a projectile spam, you can't go above because of the size of it and you can't go under because it's solid so wading in with shield is the only option for a lot of characters, more so with someone like Diddy who's peanut arc gives him a boost to his camping game here beyond what every camper already gets here.

Then there is the Electric stage which give very little area to fight normally, the rest of the stage is treadmills which always end up taking over the fight making any normal gameplay go out the window.

I see no reason for this stage to become legal when every transformation interferes with gameplay. Even the rest of the non-legal transforming stages like Port Town have stops that would be legal on their own but PS2 doesn't.

 

[Raijinken]

Good points. I agree with you about Pokemon Stadium 2. Personally Duck Hunt doesn't bother me that much, but I do see your reasoning behind it. It's the ultimate Troll stage. Ha ha! Maybe if you don't like so much you could create a thread much like this one discussing it's legality. I fully support it.

I don't mind it at all, I was playing Devil's Advocate. I think it's fine, but it's a bit surprising to me that stage-conservatives run it legal.

Stadium 2 is less surprising, but I still consider all of the above-mentioned points to be less-than-critical strikes against it. Grounded play is still an option in Flying form and in many cases forcing your opponent into the air will give you the advantage. Ground form is, again, basically Ground or Fire form from Stadium 1, mystically legal. Ice Form encourages walking or aerial play just as Flying discourages it. And Electric encourages offstage play or center-stage control, often going from one to the other.

I find these dynamics to be interesting. Others don't. Hence, I run the stage legal in my personal rulesets.

 

[Neutricity]

I don't mind it at all, I was playing Devil's Advocate. I think it's fine, but it's a bit surprising to me that stage-conservatives run it legal.

Stadium 2 is less surprising, but I still consider all of the above-mentioned points to be less-than-critical strikes against it. Grounded play is still an option in Flying form and in many cases forcing your opponent into the air will give you the advantage. Ground form is, again, basically Ground or Fire form from Stadium 1, mystically legal. Ice Form encourages walking or aerial play just as Flying discourages it. And Electric encourages offstage play or center-stage control, often going from one to the other.

I find these dynamics to be interesting. Others don't. Hence, I run the stage legal in my personal rulesets.

Do you have any footage of the stage being played on?
I think projectile users like Pac-Man, Mega Man, etc. could love this stage.
Pac-Man can use the Ground Transformation to catch his fruits and Mega Man can place Crash Bomb on walls and slopes.
I'm going to test if DuckHunt's can or his shooters move when they are on the conveyor belt.

 

[Raijinken]

Do you have any footage of the stage being played on?
I think projectile users like Pac-Man, Mega Man, etc. could love this stage.
Pac-Man can use the Ground Transformation to catch his fruits and Mega Man can place Crash Bomb on walls and slopes.
I'm going to test if DuckHunt's can or his shooters move when they are on the conveyor belt.

I do not have footage, alas, my internet can't handle streaming very well.

The main argument I consider when determining legality is the "do you have to fight the stage more than the player" argument, followed by "does it obviously encourage camping as the sole strategy."

Stadium 2 does neither.

 

[Ghostbone]

Oh man are we talking about the stage that half the cast has death combos on during wind again.

Can people just give up on PS2 and argue for the like 20 other stages in the game including **** like Gamer that are FAR more competitive than it.

 

[Raijinken]

Oh man are we talking about the stage that half the cast has death combos on during wind again.

Can people just give up on PS2 and argue for the like 20 other stages in the game including **** like Gamer that are FAR more competitive than it.

It's far easier to argue for a stage without a damaging hazard than for one that not only has those, but is almost guaranteed to have a permanent cave of life.

Gamer's decent enough though.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Given that I played on PS2 back in Brawl and used it as a counter pick at times, no actually its a fairly competitive stage and should be included.

It won't be because people are trying to cut Delfino and Halberd for crying out loud, but it should be.

 

[Masonomace]

Coming from a Shulk player, yes I approve of PS2 being legal.

 

[MysteriousSilver]

Ulevo there was a topic about PS2 long ago and here's my answer :

The problem is still the same : the proofs that PS2 doesn't promote degenerate gameplay are nowhere to be found, so the debate about its legality keeps revolving around opinions and personal preference and thus remains sterile.

PS2 will stay banned unless either 1-someone gets in the lab and finds the facts to prove it's not intrusive or 2-the clear majority of the community changes its opinion about it and decides it's not intrusive enough to get banned.

Have fun accomplishing either of those.

How does one prove a stage is not jank? By playing matches on it with no jank happening? I can do that on freaking 75M if I'm so inclined. How many matches does one have to play on a stage to prove it has no jank? Infinity?

It should be the job of those who oppose the stage to prove that it -is- jank. Take some people there or do some MMs and show how the stage will influence the fight to an unfair degree in a competitive setting.

For the record, it doesn't count if the other person dies because they don't know how the stage works.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Perfect Pivoting on the Ice Form is so great. Jigglypuff has the worst PP distance yet she goes literally half the stage during it, lol. Falcon travels the entire stage which is hilarious. I like the way landing aerials covert into grounded moves on the ice as you follow your opponent during the landing lag. It makes for a lot of interesting set-ups.

I'd like an explanation on how the Flying transformation is good, though. From what I can tell, it just restricts jumping.

 

[teluoborg]

How does one prove a stage is not jank? By playing matches on it with no jank happening? I can do that on freaking 75M if I'm so inclined. How many matches does one have to play on a stage to prove it has no jank? Infinity?

You
1-identify the problematic strategies the stage allows.
2-find out whether they can be dealt with in a realistic manner or if the strategy indeed promotes degenerate gameplay
3-publish your results with evidence

It should be the job of those who oppose the stage to prove that it -is- jank. Take some people there or do some MMs and show how the stage will influence the fight to an unfair degree in a competitive setting.

It SHOULD, if the consensus wasn't that PS2 is not tournament material. Since the people who want PS2 legal are the one fighting the consensus the burden of proof is on their side. That's why I said that if you don't want to prove anything you can also change the consensus, but good luck on that.

For the record, it doesn't count if the other person dies because they don't know how the stage works.

Ah, the good old "people don't like it because they're bad on it" argument. This straw man had already expired even before smash 4 came out so please stop using it.

 

[Ghostbone]

Given that I played on PS2 back in Brawl and used it as a counter pick at times, no actually its a fairly competitive stage and should be included.

It won't be because people are trying to cut Delfino and Halberd for crying out loud, but it should be.

PS2 was competitive in Brawl, it isn't in this game.
Why is this a hard concept for people to grasp.

@people saying PS2 isn't jank, wind roof combos from as low as 10% say high.
And literally none of the PS2 transformations would be legal as their own stage, there really isn't much going for it.

And why isn't this discussion in the stage legality thread.

 

[Neutricity]

PS2 was competitive in Brawl, it isn't in this game.
Why is this a hard concept for people to grasp.

@people saying PS2 isn't jank, wind roof combos from as low as 10% say high.
And literally none of the PS2 transformations would be legal as their own stage, there really isn't much going for it.

And why isn't this discussion in the stage legality thread.

Staying on the ground is not that hard. If you counterpick that stage when you're fighting against an air combo charcter then that's you're fault for choosing that stage to play on.

I'm fighting for the testing of this stage. If it is thoroughly tested and is approved on a large scale then great and if it is not then oh well.

And as a personal opinion, I think fighting on PS2 is entertaining to play/watch. Its also hard to start playing on auto-pilot when you have to adapt to the next transformation.

 

[Masonomace]

And as a personal opinion, I think fighting on PS2 is entertaining to play/watch. Its also hard to start playing on auto-pilot when you have to adapt to the next transformation.

This is basically why I approve of PS2. The character I play relies on adapting to every situation I find fit for the moment at hand. Monado arts are super cool to use in combination with the stage transitions.

In the end, my support can be looked at & be thought to be said as, "oh. That guy plays Shulk. It makes sense he would like PS2 with how he can change his stats with Monado arts & everything.". Still, I find PS2 to be manageable from all of my experiences playing on it & I would be interested if some locals around me would give the stage a chance to try.

 

[Rooting_Wires]

You need to take into conaideration that if you don't have enough time left after the thirty seconds of set up on 5 Player PS2 , it could potentially mess up the game itself and have to restart until you get a perfect setup.
IMO, I don't mind the transformations, but some people hate them. Just let TOs decide.

 

[FrostBlitzkrieg]

I run locals and we include PS2 and the people here don't hate the stage, or have any problems with it really. As a Dedede player, the treadmill transformation is troublesome, but I would still play on it. It's at least an interesting stage.

We also play with a lot more stage variety than what is usually considered 'legal' anyway, so maybe we are just more tolerant of different stages because we play most of the stages, I don't know.

 

[Ghostbone]

Staying on the ground is not that hard. If you counterpick that stage when you're fighting against an air combo charcter then that's you're fault for choosing that stage to play on.

Yea, and just pick a fast character on temple, your fault for that stage getting picked if your opponent is faster than you!

And as a personal opinion, I think fighting on PS2 is entertaining to play/watch. Its also hard to start playing on auto-pilot when you have to adapt to the next transformation.

Your personal opinions don't make a stage competitive.
PS2 has already been tested and it's COMPLETELY BROKEN because many members of the cast can consistently kill you from like 10% during wind.

Like dam we don't have walk-offs legal for this reason guys, why aren't you all out arguing for onett or another stage that's like 50x as competitive as PS2.

 

[MysteriousSilver]

It SHOULD, if the consensus wasn't that PS2 is not tournament material. Since the people who want PS2 legal are the one fighting the consensus the burden of proof is on their side. That's why I said that if you don't want to prove anything you can also change the consensus, but good luck on that.

It's true that this is the reality, but this isn't how it should work. You can make a case or an argument for a stage getting unbanned but you can't prove it should be in the same way. Many stages in this game were banned without any real testing This community is way, way to ready to ban anything that it thinks might be a problem before testing it out.

Ah, the good old "people don't like it because they're bad on it" argument. This straw man had already expired even before smash 4 came out so please stop using it.

lolno

I didn't say why people don't like it, but if it's because of a lack of knowledge, that's a terrible reason. Nearly every stage has unique properties and some degree of jank and it's up to us as competitive players to understand what properties a stage has and what options it provides/takes away. If you don't know that Shiek can fair the crap out of you on Smashville or that Pika can QAC there, it your fault, not a problem with the stage. If you don't know about T&C's platforms and you get carried off the edge, that's your fault. If you don't know how to recover on Lylat, that's your fault. If you get pineappled on Dreamland 64, that's your fault. If you don't know how to interact with water on Delfino, that's your fault.

We shouldn't ban something unless it provides an unfair advantage to certain characters (Sonic on Great Cave), invalidates how well or poorly a stock has been played (Gamer, Walkoffs), or is otherwise largely disruptive to the game (Brawl Mario Bros.)

Maybe PS2 is this jank. I dunno, those wind combos sound pretty bad. But I'm not arguing for this specific stage, I'm arguing our overall approach to banning stuff.

 

[Raijinken]

You need to take into conaideration that if you don't have enough time left after the thirty seconds of set up on 5 Player PS2 , it could potentially mess up the game itself and have to restart until you get a perfect setup.
IMO, I don't mind the transformations, but some people hate them. Just let TOs decide.

Last time I let TOs decide something, my entire metagame was declare jank and dead in my state, with our top TOs and group moderators declaring the subject to be deliberately stirring up trouble if you brought it up. So, no thanks.

Yea, and just pick a fast character on temple, your fault for that stage getting picked if your opponent is faster than you!

Your personal opinions don't make a stage competitive.
PS2 has already been tested and it's COMPLETELY BROKEN because many members of the cast can consistently kill you from like 10% during wind.

Like dam we don't have walk-offs legal for this reason guys, why aren't you all out arguing for onett or another stage that's like 50x as competitive as PS2.

I shouldn't even feel a need to point out that permanent circle camping is vastly different from a temporary enhancement of air combos, or a temporary hill comparable to that in Delfino (frequently legal).

Additionally, walkoffs are not banned unless they are permanent (I would absolutely ban Stadium 2 if it picked a random form at the start of each match and kept it). Unless you're in the group that also bans Delfino. In which case our views are too divergent for me to bother keeping up this debate.

 

[Rooting_Wires]

Last time I let TOs decide something, my entire metagame was declare jank and dead in my state, with our top TOs and group moderators declaring the subject to be deliberately stirring up trouble if you brought it up. So, no thanks.

If you have a problem with your TO's then start your own tourneys. Your problem isn't mine. Remember, I said IMO.

 

[Raijinken]

If you have a problem with your TO's then start your own tourneys. Your problem isn't mine. Remember, I said IMO.

There is no tournament if there are no players willing to join in, regardless of my willingness to TO.

Stadium will be in the same boat. If most of the good players are opposed to it, most TOs won't run it unless they're willing to alienate their skilled players to try to make a point.

 

[Ghostbone]

I shouldn't even feel a need to point out that permanent circle camping is vastly different from a temporary enhancement of air combos, or a temporary hill comparable to that in Delfino (frequently legal).

Why
Circle camping results in extremely lopsided matchups, so does PS2. ("enhancement" of air combos is a gross understatement, it's actually just incredibly abusive/degenerate gameplay)

Additionally, walkoffs are not banned unless they are permanent (I would absolutely ban Stadium 2 if it picked a random form at the start of each match and kept it). Unless you're in the group that also bans Delfino. In which case our views are too divergent for me to bother keeping up this debate.

Permanent walk-offs are banned because if your opponent camps them there's no way for you to avoid the ridiculous risk/reward that comes with them.
PS2 wind has the exact same problem, you can't avoid the ridiculous risk/reward of roof combos because they work anywhere on the stage, you can't just stay in the middle of the stage and wait for the walk-off to go away like you can on Delfino/castle Siege.