Let's talk about Pokemon Stadium 2.

[Neutricity]

Why
Circle camping results in extremely lopsided matchups, so does PS2. ("enhancement" of air combos is a gross understatement, it's actually just incredibly abusive/degenerate gameplay)


Permanent walk-offs are banned because if your opponent camps them there's no way for you to avoid the ridiculous risk/reward that comes with them.
PS2 wind has the exact same problem, you can't avoid the ridiculous risk/reward of roof combos because they work anywhere on the stage, you can't just stay in the middle of the stage and wait for the walk-off to go away like you can on Delfino/castle Siege.

Well if we tested that out instead of instantly ruling it out then we can see what happens when people try to adapt to the wind by staying on the ground. Or better yet, don't take a character with stupid combos like that to PS2. The Flying Transformation is only one aspect of the stage.
We just want to test it out and observe what would happen. We don't want to have an internet fight with you, Mr. Ghostbone.

 

[FrostBlitzkrieg]

Does anyone have the video of 10% to death combo on PS2? I feel like I have to see it.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Honestly, PS2 shouldn't be legal. We can try it out, see how it goes, but right now I don't think so.

There are 4 transitions, each one has different problems. My first point on why PS2 shouldn't be legal is that match-ups can drastically change on each transition.

If an MU changes drastically in ONE stage or ONE transition, sure. But every transition can change the MUs so much, I shouldn't have to adapt to each transition, study the transitions, learn new matchups for the transitions, etc.

Two, I don't think there is a "normal" way to play smash physics wise. Some people play floaty small special smash and that could be their normal. In competitive play (which is what we are discussing), we don't play with extra slippery-ness or extra floaty-bess. We play with the regular physics. Now that we have TWO (could be said as 3 because the belts make you slower and really hurt ground characters) out of 4 transitions are already really problematic. They change the competitive "normal" too much.

We basically have a stage that changes the way smash is being played. It changes MUs, strategies, a character's viability, and other things. If you want to be competitive, you shouldn't have to learn all the transitions and strategies each character has on each transition.

In conclusion, PS2 changes the way each character is played on EACH transition. A character can be really good on some transitions and crap on others. You would have to learn how to play optimally on each transition and how each character does. It changes gameplay too much, considering this is a SINGLE stage that can be banned (and prob would be banned a lot). It changes the game too much.

 

[Teshie U]

Matchups change drastically on town and city as it changes. Having high, low and no platforms can be a huge deal.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Matchups change drastically on town and city as it changes. Having high, low and no platforms can be a huge deal.

but it doesn't change too much. Characters with good vertical kill moves get a bit better, but MUs change a lot per transition on PS2, and there is 4 completely different ones.

 

[Teshie U]

Matchups actually DO change a lot, just not permanently. Platform camping with high platforms can be outright broken, but its temporary.

None of the transformations on delfino or ps2 or wuhu or skyloft would ever be legal if they weren't temporary either.

 

[Loota]

We've had PS2 legal from the very beginning and I've never had problems avoiding all those early% kill setups on the wind transformtion. In fact, I can't really remember a situation where I had died without my opponent genuinely outplaying me (though I've definitely got some of those early upper blastzone kills because of my opponents playing unsafe or didn't know how to handle the situation).

I'd compare the wind transformation to temporary walk offs which also represent highly risky but fair, two-sided gambles that are easily avoided if wanted. Air camping offstage is one pretty universally effective and easy way to avoid any grounded kill setups and requires commitment from your opponent to combat you since they have to get in the air too. If you're already stopped ascending after your jump, the opponent has to jump which usually makes him be above you eventually due to boosted jumps. If you dodge his possible attempts of attacking you (something to note: airdodging is much more safer here than normally), the situation is essentially reversed and you're the one to decide how to proceed. The one aircamping can usually go for the ledge quite safely too to refresh his jumps if needed. Also, airborne players have only their mid air jump left which makes comboing to the top blastzone a lot harder or even impossible.

The transformation isn't still very optimal for 1v1's, I'd definitely ban it if it was the only one in the stage but like temporary walkoffs, the core problem gets significantly smaller as both parties know that the transformation will end eventually and anything possibly problematic won't be effective for much longer (and requires the camping player to return to the center, just like walkoffs). As long as temporary walkoffs are agreed to be okay, I don't see PS2 as ban worthy (in a 13 stage FLSS at least), I'd go for Halberd's or Kongo's head first. It might not be the most viewer friendly thing to watch either but as a player, I don't mind it at all (heck, I love the stage).

I see the problems that people have with it but I don't find them as definitive as they've made out to be. I'd like to see the stage explored a bit more at top level play with actual knowledge of the stage (I don't think I've ever seen any?) but we'll at least continue to test it's merits and see if it holds up in the long run. Never hurts to get more data, eh?

 

[Electrix]

I think the wind is the worst transformation considering it makes vertical kills amazingly easy. Can someone see how early Mewtwo's kill throw, well, kills?

 

[Raijinken]

I think the wind is the worst transformation considering it makes vertical kills amazingly easy. Can someone see how early Mewtwo's kill throw, well, kills?

In training mode (with all attached implications) it will kill a Mario set to stand still at 110.
For comparison, standard mode does not result in a kill until about 135 (no sparks but kills).

A change of 25 damage on an almost purely-vertical move. Still won't kill at a "non-kill percent" without rage.

Worse threats come from characters with aerial vertical killers.

 

[Ghostbone]

Well if we tested that out instead of instantly ruling it out then we can see what happens when people try to adapt to the wind by staying on the ground. Or better yet, don't take a character with stupid combos like that to PS2. The Flying Transformation is only one aspect of the stage.
We just want to test it out and observe what would happen. We don't want to have an internet fight with you, Mr. Ghostbone.

"We just want to test it"
It's already been tested, it's already deemed broken. You just have some weird fascination with the stage and won't accept that it's bad for competitive play.

You guys can keep living in your fantasy land where PS2 is ok but it's never going to be legal in a lot of places because most people don't want noncompetitive stages legal rofl.

 

[ARGHETH]

"We just want to test it"
It's already been tested, it's already deemed broken. You just have some weird fascination with the stage and won't accept that it's bad for competitive play.

Really? I was under the impression that people looked at how it worked and never deemed it legal at all. Where has it been tested?

 

[Raijinken]

Really? I was under the impression that people looked at how it worked and never deemed it legal at all. Where has it been tested?

Different testing areas have reached different conclusions, as several posts in this thread suggest.

Ghostbone's source/testing says broken. Loota's says not. Mine says not. Others say broken.

As a result, it will purely depend on your region and TOs.

 

[Ghostbone]

Areas that haven't deemed it broken don't have players who are properly abusing it.

You could legalise any stage if people didn't abuse the broken aspects.

 

[Raijinken]

Areas that haven't deemed it broken don't have players who are properly abusing it.

You could legalise any stage if people didn't abuse the broken aspects.

This is a true statement, and is why standardized rulesets have no place outside of massive-scale tournaments that the vast majority of players will not attend anyway.

No reason to detract from our fun because someone you know has a sufficient skill gap to abuse a stage.

 

[epicnights]

If we're looking for high level play on Pokemon Stadium 2, SFL is having Jank City (themed monthly) on October 10th with PS2 as a starter. The ruleset is here if any are interested.

 

[Raijinken]

If we're looking for high level play on Pokemon Stadium 2, SFL is having Jank City (themed monthly) on October 10th with PS2 as a starter. The ruleset is here if any are interested.

Pretty interesting. Though (and I know this is half the point) only three starters, one of which is Suzaku, while Kalos and MK8 are CP?

I'll definitely watch if I get the chance.

 

[Loota]

I'd love to see a match where someone abuses the wind transformation properly while someone counterplays it properly too. And that's not because I'm certain that the one abusing it will fail or anything, but to actually see both sides in action and playing to their best capability since that probably hasn't ever happened to draw definitive conclusions. That's why I'm kind of tired of the "stop advocating for it" campaign since some of us hasn't actually felt the much discussed problems being too bad and feel like it should be explored more throroughly. The people advocating for the stage kinda have to do the work to possibly get it re-legalized somewhere, which is often said to us in these situations, so pleeeeease stop being so definitive about it at the same time. "It's up to you to ge- NO."

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I'd love to see a match where someone abuses the wind transformation properly while someone counterplays it properly too. And that's not because I'm certain that the one abusing it will fail or anything, but to actually see both sides in action and playing to their best capability since that probably hasn't ever happened to draw definitive conclusions. That's why I'm kind of tired of the "stop advocating for it" campaign since some of us hasn't actually felt the much discussed problems being too bad and feel like it should be explored more throroughly. The people advocating for the stage kinda have to do the work to possibly get it re-legalized somewhere, which is often said to us in these situations, so pleeeeease stop being so definitive about it at the same time. "It's up to you to ge- NO."

FWIW I got the 10% Sheik fthrow > uair > dj uair in nothing flat on an AI and they're pretty on point with dodging so I'm inclined to believe that it's a true combo.

That said I would still be very interested in seeing two skilled players go at it on the stage for some more substantial analysis.

 

[Raijinken]

FWIW I got the 10% Sheik fthrow > uair > dj uair in nothing flat on an AI and they're pretty on point with dodging so I'm inclined to believe that it's a true combo.

That said I would still be very interested in seeing two skilled players go at it on the stage for some more substantial analysis.

Odds are good that unless they actually like the stage, they'll deliberately ignore proper skilled play in an attempt to prove it broken.

 

[wizrad]

The ground transformation isn't really a problem, it's the electric one. This stage's legality depends on how intrusive the community finds that transformation to be. That said, I'd like to see it in tournaments.

 

[Neutricity]

The best thing is testing! Play and record everybody! I'll do my best and hope you will to!

 

[Kaladin]

Right now, there is a tournament being streamed with this as a neutral. Lets see how it plays out. (Vsgc)

 

[Neutricity]

Right now, there is a tournament being streamed with this as a neutral. Lets see how it plays out. (Vsgc)

Do you mind tossing me a link to the stream?


Edit: I found it

 

[Darklink401]

I'm eventually planning to host a small tournament here for barely illegal stages, such as this.

I actually like PS2, aside from the electric transformation. The rock one is actually my favorite since it doesn't mess with physics at all.

 

[iVoltage]

The wind and electric transformations are actually so noncompetitive it hurts. Dying at 10% off the top because a yoshi just uses upair x5 under you and there is nothing you can do about it. As well as falling off the stage losing all control if you have any sort of lag risking dying are both very good reasons to not have this legal, and i didn't even mention the ice transformation. Its just too much jank, there are plenty of other stages worth testing that have much more competitive value.

 

[Neutricity]

People keep saying you would die at 10% during the wind transformation but they never have actual footage of that ever happening. I'm sure that scenario doesn't happen nearly as much as people say it does in higher levels of competitive play.

 

[iVoltage]

People keep saying you would die at 10% during the wind transformation but they never have actual footage of that ever happening. I'm sure that scenario doesn't happen nearly as much as people say it does in higher levels of competitive play.

People saying this dont have video proof that its NOT a problem either because nobody plays the stage regularly. I can go and setup the combo on purpose and record it but what will that prove?

 

[Neutricity]

People saying this dont have video proof that its NOT a problem either because nobody plays the stage regularly. I can go and setup the combo on purpose and record it but what will that prove?

I'm working on gathering videos, but please do.

 

[teluoborg]

iVoltage It will prove nothing. But now if you go and try different ways to escape the combo and prove that none of them works you will have produced a fact about that stage and it will be a good thing because right now the debate only revolves around opinions. Of course you need to be unbiased and if you find out a way to escape the combos then you must not hide it.

 

[iVoltage]

I'm working on gathering videos, but please do.

If I find some time I will

 

[WritersBlah]

People saying this dont have video proof that its NOT a problem either because nobody plays the stage regularly. I can go and setup the combo on purpose and record it but what will that prove?

I think what Neutricity is trying to get at is that it doesn't really matter whether it can be done so much as it matters whether, given having the stage legal in tournament, how often it would realistically happen. For example, Temple is banned in competitive play because of circle camping. It's an inevitable fact about the stage that circle camping is a powerful tactic, and anyone who doesn't know that will find out if they try to gentlemen to it. But then you have corner cases like the one provided by you; the wind transformation on PS2 can lead to some really early kills by some characters. However, this tactic only really holds weight if the situation is that both players know about this fact and yet it happens anyway, on a regular basis. If one of the players does not know about it, then that's on the player, not the stage.

For example, I just played a match against a really good Pikachu as Diddy Kong. The Pikachu player was able to knock me offstage, and then snipe my recovery with a thunder jolt, causing me to lose my recovery and lose a set. Is Pikachu versus Diddy unfavorable for Diddy then? Quite possibly, but had if I had the knowledge going into the match that such a tactic existed, maybe I wouldn't have been so keen as to choose Diddy. And that isn't to say that a more skilled Diddy player could circumvent the situation entirely by recovering in a different manner. So the same could be said about PS2. If the wind transformation causes early kills in tournament matches against players who are both aware of the tactic on a regular basis, then that is what constitutes a more scrutinizing opinion of a stage.

 

[Neutricity]

I think what Neutricity is trying to get at is that it doesn't really matter whether it can be done so much as it matters whether, given having the stage legal in tournament, how often it would realistically happen. For example, Temple is banned in competitive play because of circle camping. It's an inevitable fact about the stage that circle camping is a powerful tactic, and anyone who doesn't know that will find out if they try to gentlemen to it. But then you have corner cases like the one provided by you; the wind transformation on PS2 can lead to some really early kills by some characters. However, this tactic only really holds weight if the situation is that both players know about this fact and yet it happens anyway, on a regular basis. If one of the players does not know about it, then that's on the player, not the stage.

For example, I just played a match against a really good Pikachu as Diddy Kong. The Pikachu player was able to knock me offstage, and then snipe my recovery with a thunder jolt, causing me to lose my recovery and lose a set. Is Pikachu versus Diddy unfavorable for Diddy then? Quite possibly, but had if I had the knowledge going into the match that such a tactic existed, maybe I wouldn't have been so keen as to choose Diddy. And that isn't to say that a more skilled Diddy player could circumvent the situation entirely by recovering in a different manner. So the same could be said about PS2. If the wind transformation causes early kills in tournament matches against players who are both aware of the tactic on a regular basis, then that is what constitutes a more scrutinizing opinion of a stage.

Hahaha, thanks. I also don't think you can consistently kill someone at 10% on that stage in this game. I've been here for a bit so I've seen Volty's argument so many times from so many people and I've gotten to the point where I don't want to debate. I rather see any kind of footage from good players for reference. If players learned the stage then early deaths wouldn't happen in higher levels of competitive play.

There's no circle camping, like you said, walk offs, or Yellow Devil/Ridley to fight so this stage shouldn't be overlooked, right ?

 

[Toxicational]

This is one of my favorite stages in Smash bros but in competitive play it isnt really that good. There way too much **** in the way.

 

[Neutricity]

I'm not so sure. People memorized exactly when the laser beam will fire and who the claw will attack on Halberd. If people learned this stage then I'm sure characters will shine.

I got footage of some friendlies on Pokemon Stadium 2.
13:05 and 20:13

http://www.twitch.tv/coolhandscafe/v/21211636

No one died at 10%

 

[TheJolteon]

The flying transformation is a problem as well considering that you can kill at the top around 30 and the conveyor belts mess up slow characters. Other than that I feel the stage has a chance of being legal.