Let's talk about L-Canceling.

[sGale]

Actually, it's easier to powershield in melee. 3 frames in brawl and 6 in melee iirc.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

BizR0, the hitstun in melee and brawl are identical. The shield stun is lower. The combo differences between melee and brawl has nothing to do with hitstun, and more to do with the fact that you can escape hitstun after a certain amount of animation frames. Again, the hitstun value is identical, but the shield stun values are lower.

With that said, there is plenty of shield pressure in Brawl. You have to be a little more selective about which moves you use on shields, and some low tier characters have ludicrously bad shield pressure (Sheik is a pretty good example). How it works is that most characters have a few moves they can use on shield, and using any other moves on a shield is generally considered to be a mistake.

The offset is that shields deplete at a faster rate and are a little easier to break, how big a deterrent that is, is subjective and could be argued.

Shields break more slowly in melee but are safer to poke. There's more to it than that, but if you wanted to sum it up in one sentence that would be it.

I think the idea behind Brawl's implementation was that it would be easier for a defending player to get away. I guess Sakurai thought it was too easy to back players into a corner in melee and wanted to even out shield mechanics a bit, but how well it worked, again, is subject to debate.

Personally I don't have a problem with any of the games' shield mechanics and think they're all pretty valid ways to approach defense. It just depends on how powerful you like your defensive options to be, and in what ways you want them to be powerful.

Actually, it's easier to powershield in melee. 3 frames in brawl and 6 in melee iirc.

The frame window is indeed larger in melee, but I believe melee also had some kind of distance requirement, I'm not sure what that was exactly. But there's more to it than just frame data.

 

[sGale]

BizR0, I think you're looking at shields in a little black and white view. Just because the shield depletes faster doesn't mean it's an worse option.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Does bizarro actually think brawl shields are weaker or he is trying to make some external point along the lines of some of that existential "nothing can really be known" garbage?
Because if it's the former, his posts no longer mean anything to me
and if it's the latter, his posts no longer mean anything period

Weaker than Melee's, depending on your definition of "weak".

Also I found this funny, because they're only weaker if your definition of weaker is "stronger".

 

[Biz_R_0]

@Drinking are you ever going to contribute to the thread? All you've been doing is coming in here to tell me I'm dumb, which doesn't say much for your intelligence. Also, neither of those things are what I meant, I was just trying to dispel the "Brawl's shields are broken" bull****. So, please, continue to misunderstand and then call me stupid for a mistake you made.

@GlacierRyu How am I the one looking at it in black and white? I'm saying that Brawl's shields aren't universally more powerful than Melee's. If anything it's you guys that were being black and white.

@SFP all of that.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Biz_R_0, can you please try to avoid being abrasive and rude to other posters? If you disagree with them that is fine, but being mean is not the way to go about handling your hang ups. Of course Food contributed to the thread. He corrected your incorrect statement that Melee's shield is a weaker tool than Brawl's.

In the same vein, I'm going to correct your incorrect statement that Smash 64 shields are strong. They aren't, and it is not because of grabs or throws.

 

[sGale]

Oh my god Brawl's shield is not strong. In fact, it depletes twice as fast as Melee's and only has relatively 5 more HP.

This was your main argument for this. I just pointed out that melee has stronger shield pressure than brawl. Has anyone said that brawl shields are broken? I havn't seen that. I myself, as a brawl player, knows that the shield is an HUGE tool in brawl compared to melee. Melees shield is still good, but brawls is better.
Apologises to melee people if I'm completely wrong. I don't play melee, but I've watched alot of it, so this is just my observation

 

[Biz_R_0]

Biz_R_0, can you please try to avoid being abrasive and rude to other posters? If you disagree with them that is fine, but being mean is not the way to go about handling your hang ups. Of course Food contributed to the thread. He corrected your incorrect statement that Melee's shield is a weaker tool than Brawl's.

...What? Did you read his post? He wasn't correcting me (he never stated why he thought I was wrong), he just came in, made an incorrect assumption about my opinion, dismissed it, and then told me I was wrong with no explanation as to why and in a very snide manner. That's not contributing, and I'm not being hostile, he's being a jerk.

In the same vein, I'm going to correct your incorrect statement that Smash 64 shields are strong. They aren't, and it is not because of grabs or throws.

And why is that? See, you actually have to explain things, just telling someone they're wrong doesn't magically make them understand why.

 

[Kink-Link5]

This was your main argument for this. I just pointed out that melee has stronger shield pressure than brawl. Has anyone said that brawl shields are broken? I havn't seen that. I myself, as a brawl player, knows that the shield is an HUGE tool in brawl compared to melee. Melees shield is still good, but brawls is better.
Apologises to melee people if I'm completely wrong. I don't play melee, but I've watched alot of it, so this is just my observation

Your observation is accurate. Melee's shielding dynamic is a strong balance between useful without granting strong rewards when used against a large portion of moves in the game. Shield hit advantage varies roughly between +4 and -8 if I had to guess, and shield drops are much slower than in Brawl, meaning there is less to punish with. In addition, grabs are slower, making shield grabs less possible in conjunction with the usually neutral shield stun advantage.

In comparison, Brawl's shield has drastically less shield stun, to the point where moves are as bad as -13 or worse on block, a faster grab by about 2 frames on average, and a faster shield drop, making OoS options much further expanded and making it much easier to punish a much, much wider variety of approaches.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

While that's true, it is important to remember that several moves are very safe on shield, it's just a few moves rather than most moves.

 

[Biz_R_0]

This was your main argument for this. I just pointed out that melee has stronger shield pressure than brawl. Has anyone said that brawl shields are broken? I havn't seen that. I myself, as a brawl player, knows that the shield is an HUGE tool in brawl compared to melee. Melees shield is still good, but brawls is better.

No one used that word, but they were exaggerating how strong the shields were in comparison to Melee. Maybe I was exaggerating as well, but that doesn't call for the finger pointing. Also, once again, I was not saying that Brawl's were worse, I was saying that they're not universally better.

 

[sGale]

Well, why isn't brawls shield better. With less shield-stun, and many great OoS options, I can't see how melees shields are equal. There is shield pressure, but to an lesse extent. Also, options like rolling and spotd-dodging are much stronger in brawl. Maybe I'm not getting your point, but I this is how I see it.

 

[Biz_R_0]

They are better, I never said they weren't. In fact, I've told you specifically the exact opposite twice. And you say I'm being Gen 5.

 

[sGale]

Well, then we agree. I might have mis-read it, so sorry for that. English isn't my main language.

 

[Biz_R_0]

It's fine.

 

[DrinkingFood]

I'm not trying to contribute to this thread because it's been garbage since post one. Since this thread will inevitably be closed for trolling or flaming or what have you, I see no harm in taking advantage of it being on its death bed by taking up space, being obnoxious and speeding up the process so we can stop talking about it.

 

[Biz_R_0]

You can just report the thread.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

The melee trolls are half the reason it's a bad thread. Insult after insult after strawman after strawman.

 

[Ove]

I guess my view of shields in Brawl was a bit off the chart. However, I always said it was my personal opinion. I am just talking from my own experience.

The problem with the shield pressure in Brawl is that the player using the shield almost always have the option to drop the shield or get away in some way. To me, that's not real shield pressure, that's just ordinary offensive.

 

[Vkrm]

One of the reasons I never liked brawl was the shield actually. After all the things that you have to do to force somebody to shield you ought to have some kind of advantage. To me it seems sakurai didn't have the competitive part of the game thought out.

 

[DrinkingFood]

trolls

I don't think you know what that word means
because it doesn't mean "people who disagree with you"

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

No, in this case, it's more or less trolling. You lot have nothing to say that isn't "everything about brawl sucked and if it as in brawl it needs to go." L-cancelling isn't inherently good or important because it was in melee. Pls.

Your "side" has yet to make a good argument that doesn't really just smell like a dislike for Brawl, which I dismiss as trolling, nonsense, poor debate, whatever you want to call it.

Removing L-cancelling from melee would have a negligible (near zero-impact) effect on top-level play and would make the game much more accessible. If you're fighting that, you're not worth talking to.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Remove L-cancelling from Melee and moves become drastically more punishable.

 

[Vkrm]

Except people at the top level still miss l cancels.

And brawl does suck so your argument is wrong.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Except people at the top level still miss l cancels.

And brawl does suck so your argument is wrong.

LOLOLOLOL You are so ****ing adorable

Remove L-cancelling from Melee and moves become drastically more punishable.

Auto l-cancelling then, lower landing lag, whatever. You know what I meant, stop splitting hairs to look cute on the internet.

 

[Vkrm]

Yes, I'm quite the looker.

Auto canceling would **** up the balance between offense and defense.

 

[Kink-Link5]

We've already made and had that argument ignored and dismissed at least 5 times in this thread.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Yes, I'm quite the looker.

Auto canceling would **** up the balance between offense and defense.

Meaningless jargon, you have no idea what you're saying.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Yeah like that

 

[Vkrm]

Kink with the reads...

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

We've already made and had that argument ignored and dismissed at least 5 times in this thread.

That's ok, you can continue to be stubborn and wrong so that you can wave your l-penis around. Whatever floats your boat. L-cancelling won't be back.

 

[Biz_R_0]

I don't think you know what that word means
because it doesn't mean "people who disagree with you"

He's right about you, but you're right. Trolling doesn't mean stupid or wrong, trolling means that you're posting something with the primary intent of pissing people off.

 

[Kink-Link5]

You mean like, calling someone stupid?

 

[Vkrm]

That's ok, you can continue to be stubborn and wrong so that you can wave your l-penis around. Whatever floats your boat. L-cancelling won't be back.

I know there's no way l cancel is coming back. I'm just saying a lot of brawl players hate this mechanic without knowing too much about it.

 

[Delta-cod]

It's actually an unnecessary tech skill barrier.

If your argument is "it messes up the balance between offense and defense" (which you've previously argued is only true because people mess up L canceling), why don't we do something smart, like, I dunno, just balancing landing lag in general? Just general balancing completely destroys the only "valid" need for L canceling.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Please read arguments before assuming anything about them.

 

[Vkrm]

It's only seems meanless if you're already convinced that tech skill is a bad thing. Even then it's take it or leave it with the pros not out weighing the cons of auto canceling. There maybe a better alternative for endlag but its certainly not auto canceling or screwing with the frame data.

 

[Biz_R_0]

You mean like, calling someone stupid?

Yes. Like, right after I posted that I realized "wait, you're exactly what he was talking about, Drinking".

Just general balancing completely destroys the only "valid" need for L canceling.

No, if you do that then, like, 10 aerials will be more vulnerable to one OoS option. Also, if you don't agree then you just suck and you're johnning.

 

[standardtoaster]

Powershielding is a 4 frame window in brawl and 2 in melee, bizarro.

 

[Biz_R_0]

Yes. You're, like, the fourth person to say it.