Let's talk about Fox at Apex (and in tournament settings)

[The Star King]

[1/23/2014 11:01:42 PM] Star King: Han Solo is looking at it from a mid-level point of view imo
[1/23/2014 11:01:50 PM] TR3G-hip: ya
[1/23/2014 11:01:51 PM] Star King: where Fox suffers
[1/23/2014 11:01:53 PM] Star King: a bit
[1/23/2014 11:02:01 PM] TR3G-hip: not on-point fox
[1/23/2014 11:02:07 PM] Star King: compared to easier rest of top 4

[1:27:33 AM] Mark "Han Solo" Kurkowski: sk
[1:27:51 AM] Mark "Han Solo" Kurkowski: how come jaime, boom, and sheer lost then?
[1:28:04 AM] Mark "Han Solo" Kurkowski: how high level do you have to go before fox gets good?

[12:46:58 PM] Star King: because they got outplayed?
[12:52:17 PM] Star King: Jaime did better with Falcon against Wizzrobe, yeah. Everybody already knows Falcon is better than Fox against Yoshi.
[12:52:27 PM] Star King: Boom lost with Pikachu and Kirby too. That doesn't really prove much.
[12:52:55 PM] Star King: Sheer literally did better with Fox than Yoshi against Ruoka so not sure why that would show anything.

IDK. The fact that he chose "jaime, boom, and sheer" as if those are good examples kind of shows to me that he's biased towards, er, creating opportunities for whining about Fox.

 

[Shears]

IDK. The fact that he chose "jaime, boom, and sheer" as if those are good examples kind of shows to me that he's biased towards, er, creating opportunities for whining about Fox.

It took you this long to realize that? Come on @ The Star King I thought you were faster than that.

 

[mixa]

so,

no one posts on the boards but people post on that chat

then star king comes here and reposts the chat

and my dialogue hits the trees

does it make a sound?

who knows

what is that chat anyway

 

[SheerMadness]

My lasers were awful. I accidentally did standing laser on multiple occasions and it cost me several stocks.

I couldn't double laser either for whatever reason. Not sure if I just wasn't warmed up enough to console timing or if it was my new controller I wasn't used to. Maybe both. I did not play a lot of Fox before the tourney, I didn't think anyone was going to pwn my Yoshi the way Ruoka did.

But yah lasers will cost you lives if you don't do it right.

 

[Battlecow]

What's the chat

like galaxy chat

that skype chat thing from way back

 

[Han Solo]

I chose Jaime, Boom, and Sheer because they were the highest placing "Foxes". They didn't use Fox a majority of the time, and there's a reason for that. I had to literally shout at Boom, Sheer, and Sensei to use Fox. It worked out for Boom and Sheer one game. Then their opponents said "well, he's Fox lol" and then they're opponents won. These examples would be better if they used Fox a majority of the time, but they still used him and lost.

mixa, my laser spacing was definitely something I consciously worked on before apex, but you can't be perfect 100% of the time. When you play Fox, and you're not perfect, that's a stock. You rarely get second chances with Fox. Fox is more fragile than he is strong. That's all this is about.

 

[mixa]

Fox is more fragile than he is strong. That's all this is about.

So all you're really worried about is that when people see you winning, they'll even more impressed, and when people see you losing, they can better commiserate with you because now your character officially sucks in the collective mindset?

Fox is a difficult character to play; we all somewhat accept that. Not complicated, but difficult.

Were you suffering in silence all these years? Playing with a weak character while everyone thought you were quasi tier whoring? Fox himself may suffer from this too, you know. He's no legs, but few people know this. All that phantom limb pain crushing his spirit everyday, and no one thinks about that. Fox may need people to know he's in pain.

Why is the general consensus about Fox so important? I get that this is the point of this thread. I just find it silly. Mainly because it doesn't come with the will to improve in the game, so I can't help it but dismiss it as a mid-life crisis in your smash career, or the low-tier-hero syndrome. You've lost all hope. Maybe I did too, I'll no longer put pressure on you, so I'll share some wise words: "Life is not fair, and neither are fighting games. Pick a top tier."

Whatever path you decide to take, I hope you get better soon.

With love, mixa.​

 

[Cobrevolution]

low-tier-hero syndrome.

this is not a thing, there is only low tier depression and cymbalta

and occasionally vodka

 

[Han Solo]

I'm just frustrated as a midlevel player seeing my main either not be played by high level players or when he is played, he doesn't do well.

 

[The Star King]

I had to literally shout at Boom, Sheer, and Sensei to use Fox. It worked out for Boom and Sheer one game. Then their opponents said "well, he's Fox lol" and then they're opponents won. These examples would be better if they used Fox a majority of the time, but they still used him and lost.

Like I already said and you're ignoring, Sheer and Boom were already losing with their non-Fox characters, so that's not a good point for your case.

You using those examples is like me saying "Moyashi switched to Pikachu against Isai and lost. Pikachu isn't as good as people think he is." It's ignoring the fact that Moyashi was already losing with his other character. Just like Sheer and Boom. Hell, Sheer did BETTER with Fox so yeah... How do you think your examples are good at all

 

[Sangoku]

We need S or someone to come to Apex 2015 and show us that Ness Fox is good if you know how to use him.

 

[Han Solo]

Boom and Sheer are known for their Foxes while that was probably the first time anyone in the US has seen Moyashi's Pikachu. In Sheer's case, he was 1-stock away from getting 4-stocked, and he pulled a miraculous comeback only to get 4-stocked the next game. He did better than his Yoshi in a matchup that's a lot better for Fox than Yoshi, and he still didn't win.

Let's just throw out Jaime, Boom, and Sheer's Fox if you want. The next highest placing for Fox is either Mr. Bushido (Zenyore) at 25th, who I'm not sure went Fox a lot, or me at 33rd. Look at all the Falcons, Pikas, Kirbys, and even Yoshis in top 32. Look at the number of Foxes. How come no one is using Fox in top 32? Is Fox too hard for Hyrule-banned tournaments?

We need S or someone to come to Apex 2015 and show us that Ness Fox is good if you know how to use him.

I asked Ruoka about the best Fox in Japan, and he called him "Snake." I'm guessing they're one and the same? I would love for S to come over and prove me wrong.

 

[rjgbadger]

I watched the matches you lost to Revan and YBOMBB solo. Please tell me you watched them before making all these complaints? Please tell me that after watching those two sets, you can admit you either played bad, or are not a good enough player to win those sets? When I watched the sets you lost I did not see any character limitation, only you making mistakes and getting punished.

You DON'T shield drop. Ever. You realize how much that limits fox's movement on platforms? You will always blaster off one of the two sides of the side platforms, or aerial. You don't utilize Fox's ability to ascend to the top and side platforms either, via the double jump perfect landing, or shine cancels on platforms.

While you told me you always double jump to the side platforms to shine cancel on them, you should be doing a full hop instead. Why? If you get hit trying to reach the platform, you don't want to be in a position where you lose your 2nd jump. A full hop will remedy this. Sure in theory if fox gets hit he's dead, but in practice, he can wiggle his way out of a lot of situations if his opponent slips up or is unprepared for any of the tricks fox can perform.

Even though you told me about the 'panic blaster' when I brought it up in skype chat, there are a myriad of instances where you just resort to gun-slinging when you feel pressured/uncomfortable. Some of the positions you get killed/receive some good damage.

I saw you try to do a pivot dtilt once or twice vs Revan. You did them a bit too early(I can show you match-specific examples if you want). You still don't lose to Kirby players Solo, you lose to the character itself. Learn to NOT run into a position where the utilt with smack you. Sometimes that pivot utilt or landing bair into utilt may seem like it covers a lot of distance, but I assure you it does not cover all of Dreamland.

 

[Han Solo]

Fox on the side platform above a uptilting kirby (or uptilting pika or yoshi) is way too dangerous to try and shield drop aerial. You CAN hit them and start something, but more often than not, you get hit and then you die.

I double jump shine land on the platforms because it's faster and easier. And I don't know where this "not utilizing shine lands" comes from. I probably do it the most out of any Fox except maybe you.

I really want to know why people aren't using Fox and those who do don't do well.

 

[Sedda]

Just play falcon, solo. All the cool kids are doing it!

Nah, but seriously, I get your frustration. However, nothing is going to happen. Hyrule isn't coming back (although I'd support any effort) and there's not much that can be done.

I guess what I'm trying to say is this: what is the point of complaining about Fox? If you're absolutely convinced that he's not great anymore due to the ruleset or w/e, then either don't play him or learn how to live with it.

 

[Annex]

If you're absolutely convinced that he's not great anymore due to the ruleset or w/e, then either don't play him or learn how to live with it.

This. Not seeing the point of this thread/why you need everyone to have the same opinion of a character as you

 

[Han Solo]

Alright, someone tell me how to Fox better.

 

[rawrimamonster]

Alright, someone tell me how to Fox better.

Run away. Smash 64 isn't for cool combos anymore, didnt you get the memo? It's camping for the first hit that leads to a gimp.

 

[rjgbadger]

that's only once instance about shield drops. Why in the world would you aerial into a utilt in the first place? fox's ground options are much much better to combat utilt.

Running>shield is another technique I don't see you doing much. And for shine lands, you don't shine land on side plat>shield drop laser into your game. you are good at fast fall bair from the side plats but fox also has edge cancels, pivots, and shield drops, things that you could be doing more of and profiting.

I'll make a full noted analysis of everything in the matches you lost that were recorded, if you want.

 

[Han Solo]

If you want to do that for me, hip, I'll read it.

 

[rjgbadger]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7iMsaYcSio
revan vs han solo play by play match 1. Match 2 to come later.



Match starts, Solo starts to camp the platforms and avoid kirby. Fox full jumps, and fast falls to the ground, only to take a utilt from Kirby. The utilt leads to a tech chase on a platform and edgeguard opportunity, but Fox does not get killed. Fox get up attacks Kirby putting him in a tech situation. Fox runs right passed kirby as he techrolls inwards and Fox shoots a few lasers, expecting kirby to jump. Fires two lasers then misses 2 lasers. Fox goes to the platform on the side, and gets hit by a light bair from kirby, does not get punished severely for it. Fox goes for a risky falling uair, which leads leads to a combo to 71% and edgeguard attempt. Fox misses a dsmash to kill kirby off, and after another missed edgeguard by kirby, Fox manages a fsmash kill, while kirby was about to utilt.

Kirby respawns. Fox resorts to shooting lasers once the repspawn invincible time is out. After a laser, fox gets a bair into dtilt, leading to 2 first hit uairs, fair, dair, jab usmash kill on the top platform.

Kirby respawns. Fox resorts to using the platforms and lasers. Running off platforms and lasers all missed, Fox gets hit by a bair by kirby. Kirby gets a kill.

Fox respawns. Tries to cover kirby's jump attempts with lasers, remembering to stay onto the platforms. Kirby lands from a missed bair and starts an utilt combo. Fox dashes right into it, with no hitbox out. Kirby eventually lets loose of Fox and missed a techchase, fox throws out a fair before rolling and shooting more lasers. Gets naired after shooting to top platform. Tricks kirby by angling upB low, manages another attempt at survival. Shoots more lasers after recovering. Fox uses platforms to avoid kirby again, abusing dashing and falling off platforms. manages to get a fast fall back air, a dash attack, ftilt shield pressure, and Kirby rolls twice to the right. Kirby gets jabbed then rolls again after a missed shine attempt. Roll leads to a Fox fair>usmash combo, killing at 85%

Kirby respawns. Fox once again resorts to lasers and platform movement. Fast fall bair at 0%, then fox rolls and takes a fsmash kill from kirby.

Fox respawns. Lasers and platform run off again. Eventually gains ground and laser-grabs kirby. Misses 4 lasers during the edgeguard process, and lets Kirby back on stage. Fox fairs high from a full hop and gets utilted while landing. Leads to a reverse bair>dair kill.

Fox respawns. Lasers and dashing on the ground this time. Kirby follows fox's attempt to reach top platform. Fair, dair, pushes fox of the platform with utilt(fox shield slides off) then fair>utilt leads to reverse bair>nair. Fox makes it back after Kirby misses a fsmash. Fox jab-throws kriby offstage and shoots lasers. Kirby upB's too low and dies after getting shot twice.

Kirby respawns onto his last stock. Fox full jumps right into a kirby fsmash from the platform.

Fox respawns on to his last stock. Applies some pressure while invincible, then resorts to the platforms again. Laser-throws kirbby offstage. Shoots lasers during edgeguard, misses every one and kirby gets back on stage. FOx retreats with lasers, tries a pivot dtilt to beat kirby's utilt, a bit too far away to connect. Jumps out of the way in time and receives no punish, fox goes to top platform. Fox runs off top platform takes from kirby a fair, light nair into utilt, utilt, reverse bair then nair techchase on the right platform. Kirby fast fall dairs and spikes fox.

Kirby wins game 1.

 

[mixa]

I asked Ruoka about the best Fox in Japan, and he called him "Snake."

I kinda just found out that Fox has a perfect landing on DL, and really, no one uses it.
[...]
The jp Fox who won the jp online tournament used it a lot. J-SNAKE

Watch your match against Ybombb and count how many times you got hit because you jumped to that top platform to either to do nothing (shines or whatever) or to attack with a move that was gonna end way before you could z-cancel it.

Nevermind, I did that for you: http://imgur.com/a/MqWtF#0 (numbers below correspond to the number of the gif in the album)

1: Risky rising aerial 1

2: Risky rising aerial 2 - you didn't get hit, but the opponent was at 0%. That rising f-air wasn't gonna link into anything. If you hit an opponent with that, you'll most likely get hit after the short hitstun ends.

3: Risky rising aerial 3

4: Risky rising aerial 4 - you didn't get hit, but it's a risky move. You can get pivot f-smashed so easily with that stuff. If I remember correctly, that's what happened with you vs M2K in that pause incident: you put that weak bair there and he f-smashed you.

5: Dash forward to advancing fair - it's risky, mainly when the fair ends way before you can z-cancel it. When you do that, there's a significant time between the hitbox disappearing and your z-cancel / landing.

6: Risky rising aerial 5 - rising uair at 0% is too risky, there's very low hitstun. Rising uair is good if you have a platform above you to land, but if where you're gonna land is on the same level from where you jumped, it's risky.

7: Dropzone nair OoS - this happened twice. What were you trying to do?

8: Random d-smash - this happened twice as well. What were you trying to do?

9: Got hit for free - which sums up the fox problem: they're getting hit for free, not because they are being outspaced or anything. They're throwing themselves out there like mad men. I'm focusing on the wrong stuff because that's what I believe to be the major problem for Fox. No one's losing because of they dropped combos or because they don't know how to edgeguard.

10: Double-jumping to the top platform (perfect landing vs the second most fast way).
You don't even need to do a perfect landing, just make those double-jumps lower.​

I hope I was clear on the top platform issue.
So there's decision making - or knowing what it's good for you - and execution. While you may argue that the lasering problem for you is more about execution than decision making, i.e. you know perfectly well how bad those lasers are, you just can't do it right all the time, I believe you cannot argue the same for the your platform approaches / aerials that end way before you can z-cancel them. The reason the standing laser doesn't matter to me, it's because it's more than agreed that whenever that happens, it's techskill problem, not a decision making problem. We know Fox don't ever mean to do that.


And lol this japanese player thing. Before Apex no one cared about anyone besides those players that played Isai in ****ing 2006. Then we started caring about Jousuke, then we started caring about Kikoushi, Ruoka, and Nangoku. One year later we now care about Moyashi. This is a stupid pattern. Are they only good after they play U version tournaments?

 

[rjgbadger]

I've lurked J videos on youtube and nicovideo for a long time now D= I don't know the player names all the time, I just watch and try to learn from them.

And Solo that was just a recap of what happened in match 1. We can go into more specifics after you read and watch it.

 

[¨°PÞ-§°¨ Bane]

fox is good. boom killed himself way too many times against moyashi, he definitely could have won if he didn't.

like honestly he's probably the best offensive character on the stage, he just has trouble once he's off-stage. comparable to falco.

 

[Shears]

comparable to falco.

This comparison makes no sense to us here on the 64 boards. Use English please.

 

[rpotts]

Lasers and excellent, quick aerials give him a great approach with excellent combo potential, meaning he has a great neutral game. Once he's offstage his recovery sucks meaning he gets edgeguarded very easily by basically the whole cast. Comparable to Falco in melee.

 

[Han Solo]

@ mixa , 7 was either supposed to be a grab or jab. 8 was supposed to be a dtilt.

 

[Shears]

Comparable to Falco in melee.

You lost me here.

 

[rawrimamonster]

You lost me here.

Falco offstage= dead falco.

 

[Sangoku]

What's Falco?

 

[Cobrevolution]

appears to be a typo

 

[Shears]

Falcon offstage= dead falcon.

Fixed. Now I understand you. But not really because Falcon and Fox are different in many ways.

 

[LLDL]

Fox is such a garbage character = /

 

[rawrimamonster]

Keyboard fox =\= Controller fox. Keys=godfox, ****ty64controller= slow ass grab/tiltbait fox. I mean think about it, Fox's recovery means jack squat anyways doesn't it? Why not have top tier mobility with instant movement and better di to escape gayness? It's not like keyboard fox's combos suffer, any good fox including myself in the past have proven keyboard doesnt cause combos to suffer.

 

[NovaSmash]

Fox isn't bad, the people who played fox at apex are bad. Not kidding, much offense intended

 

[Mr Bushido]

 

[prisonchild]

solo you've already donated $50 to boom, lost pretty badly at the last two apex's... I think it's about time you main Kirby or Pikachu.


all jokes aside, I don't know what your goal is. are you trying to tell people to put fox lower on the tier list? are you frustrated that you've spent so much time mastering a character with a certain style and then have something as simple as a ruleset change be a huge setback? are you trying to tell people to put the ruleset back so fox is good again? etc...


there's give and take here. either:
- learn how to play with different characters
- if you only like fox, change your style and adapt
- if you only like the style you play with, simply increase your skill level so you force your opponent to adapt, no matter what the matchup is

 

[Karajan]

Fox sucks at 10 AM

[4:25:55 AM] Dan Hoyt: if I had warmup
[4:25:59 AM] Dan Hoyt: GOD
[4:26:24 AM] Dan Hoyt: how many times did I end up killing myself
[4:26:28 AM] Dan Hoyt: like seriously

Bull****. Dan went to sleep at 1am. The japanese were up till 4am drinking beer with everyone lol. Which explains why the Japanese were playing badly lol


And your whole ruleset argument sux. The Japanese top 4 according to Moyashi/Ruoka/Merihim is Pika Kirby Falcon Fox

 

[menduz]

Fox only sucked coz emmi wasn't at apex

apex 2015, Emmi's fox gonna rekt u all

 

[B Link]

So I just discovered you can do an invisible shine when respawning, not useful for anything except mindgames perhaps or style lol

It's done the same way as the kirby quick down b and horizontal falcon kick off the respawn >_>

ACTUALLY now that I think about it, fox might finally have a respawn taunt now??