Let's talk about 2015 - "Decline" in Melee?

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

I don't think Smash 4 will suck anywhere nearly as hard as Brawl. The game looked much better than Brawl and I know at least Redd's been saying that Smash 4 has combos in it

I don't think Brawl ever 'sucked'. It sold nicely and gained a lot of positive reviews. We have a different view on Smash 4. To me, it appears slow-paced and boring. Needless to say, this is merely an opinion. Not to mention the fact that the game is still in beta. The game appears to be bit faster than Brawl and most likely has more "combo" potential that it's predecessor. But from what I've seen it appears to have none of the factors that have made Melee popular as a competitive fighter. As I said earlier - it will be interesting to see how everything unfolds.

Even years after Smash 4's release, Smash4 will be much fresher on the minds of casual gamers with some degree of interest in the competitive scene (Let's call them casual-competitive to give them an easier name to call them). Smash 4 will be bigger because there will be a snowball to support it. It will have the most players and the most prize money. Top players would likely want to convert to that game that's fun-but-not-as-fun because it's money. This happened in Halo 4's community.

You have made few statements, could you elaborate on them? I am unfamiliar with Halo.

Videogamebootcamp has streamed less of Melee because Project M gets lots of viewers. It'd be impossible to find the quote, but I think it was GIMR who said it himself (correct me if I'm wrong). People are going to be seeing and thinking about Smash 4 much more than they will think about Melee

I believe this is true. However, in case of Project M, I see merely how VGBC has benefited the Melee community (and Smash Community as whole). I am starting to better understand your perspective, though.
At the end of the day - it will be up to the community. Which game they enjoy playing and choose to focus on? I see Melee has a future in this regard - and it always will.

Melee's not going to die instantly. It's just that it will not be the primary competitive Smash game

We shall see - it will be interesting. I was under the impression that Smash 4 would become a successful competitive game. However, after seeing the gameplay, my views have changed. You see Melee's era coming to an end, I presume?

I doubt Smash 4 will be short lived. Look at Brawl. It sucks and yet there's still people playing it and it's been 6 years so far. But it is gradually dying now. Players are waiting for Smash 4 to replace it. Smash 4 has combos. I know at least Redd has said it himself. Have any of use been at the Best Buy Smashfest to try the game for ourselves?

Haha, I see what you mean. However, I think Brawl is a good game in it's own regard. It's merely slower-paced and less suited for competitive environment. I've thought of Smash 4 replacing Brawl - never Melee. I see you have faith in Smash 4, I do not. I used to but I've found it to be quite boring to watch so far.

What makes you think it will be worse than Brawl?

Nothing. I think Smash 4 will be 'better' (to use a related yet ambiguous term) than Brawl. But I believe it will still disappoint to deliver as a competitive game. There is another aspect of this topic yet to mention. The fact that people who love Melee are likely to react differently to Smash 4 than to Brawl. People love Melee and expected Brawl to be a sequel. They were disappointed and some still bash the game today because of it. How will people react today - when they find the game is nothing like Melee? They will do what they enjoy doing - play Melee. Only this time, the transition will be much quicker. People are more prepared and may not have high hopes for the game. This time, people will not waste time on trying to make a game something that it is not.

Do not misunderstand. People will buy it, people will play it, people will study it - but will people enjoy playing it in the long run? Melee has been around for a long time, even when circumstances have not been beneficial - to say at least.

 

[hariooo]

Melee died for just about a year after Brawl came out until RoM+Genesis revived it. Gonna be hard for Smash 4 to do the same now given all the sponsorship and popular support.

 

[Acryte]

Tell that to Mew2King. He'll tell you it's far better to invest all of your skill into a single character than to have multiple mediocre ones. Humans have limits

And you say to ask the guy who is known to play almost all characters like a champ, and who plays 3 characters consistently in tourney compared to all the players who only play a 'single character'. Just saying, m2k seems like the worst example to use in support of your statement.

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

And you say to ask the guy who is known to play almost all characters like a champ, and who plays 3 characters consistently in tourney compared to all the players who only play a 'single character'. Just saying, m2k seems like the worst example to use in support of your statement.

He probably mentioned M2K to emphasize the point. M2K is an exception, moreover he is an extremely high-level player - something most people are not.

 

[EPsilon933]

You have made few statements, could you elaborate on them? I am unfamiliar with Halo.

There are plenty of competitive COD players who make their living off of going to tournaments, streaming, and youtubing. That's not as feasible with Halo because there's not as many players in its scene. There are a lot of Halo pros who converted to COD because of a more existent tournament scene and ability to make money. Competitive players often choose to compete in games with the most players. MLG runs COD because of its popularity, which makes it more attractive to other players. The loss of Halo's top players made the game less attractive to compete in. COD is worse than Halo and even some of the top players say this, and they still play COD. But some of them do play Halo on their own free time and I think some of them go to the few(er) Halo tournaments that still run

(I don't follow the Halo and COD scenes very actively, everything I say is barely scratching the surfaces of what's going on)

I believe this is true. However, in case of Project M, I see merely how VGBC has benefited the Melee community (and Smash Community as whole). I am starting to better understand your perspective, though.
At the end of the day - it will be up to the community. Which game they enjoy playing and choose to focus on? I see Melee has a future in this regard - and it always will.

It still has a future. Project M and Smash 4 will be a bridge to Melee

We shall see - it will be interesting. I was under the impression that Smash 4 would become a successful competitive game. However, after seeing the gameplay, my views have changed. You see Melee's era coming to an end, I presume?

Melee's era of being the primary Smash game is coming to an end. As long as Smash 4 isn't as bad as Brawl, Melee won't be in the main spotlight anymore. COD, as bad as it is, even Ghosts, is still the main COD game and does pretty well on MLG. Just not as well as BO 2 was

Nothing. I think Smash 4 will be 'better' (to use a related yet ambiguous term) than Brawl. But I believe it will still disappoint to deliver as a competitive game. There is another aspect of this topic yet to mention. The fact that people who love Melee are likely to react differently to Smash 4 than to Brawl. People love Melee and expected Brawl to be a sequel. They were disappointed and some still bash the game today because of it. How will people react today - when they find the game is nothing like Melee? They will do what they enjoy doing - play Melee. Only this time, the transition will be much quicker. People are more prepared and may not have high hopes for the game. This time, people will not waste time on trying to make a game something that it is not.

Do not misunderstand. People will buy it, people will play it, people will study it - but will people enjoy playing it in the long run? Melee has been around for a long time, even when circumstances have not been beneficial - to say at least.

The flood of new players will be greater than the number of currently existing Melee players. Melee's a timeless game, so it might take until the players who play it to die for that game to die. Smash 4 only needs to last until Smash 5 happens. Then the same sequel-becoming-the-primary-competitive-game thing will happen. It should only need to last for 6 or 7 years. But if a game is too boring and doesn't have competitive circuit support, then it'll gradually die and the prequel will take over

 

[Raise]

As a couple of people have said, it's obvious that Smash 4 will bring many new faces into the community. However, I'm sure the most competitive of them will want the fastest and most competitive game available. We may see a sharp decline at the original release of Sm4sh but I believe after a few months those of us who are still looking to play the most competitive option will return and bring the fresh meat back over with us.

Look at Quake. Easily regarded as one of the most vanilla shooters that's been around for well over a decade and it's competitive scene still has tens of thousands of active players because it's so fast and has a truly competitive style.

 

[LilBro]

Casual players will usually play the newest game released; Smash 4 is the end of Brawl, and Smash 5 will be the end of Smash 4 if it ever comes. Competitive players will usually play Melee, so it will never die even with the release of new Smash titles.

Melee is love, Melee is life...

 

[caLviN-1260]

Smash 4 looks fun, but going into 2015 I think we're all gonna need to remember the Smash game that brought the hype in the first place. Make the effort to keep Melee (and P:M) going, make it an ESPORT. Melee and P:M have a lot of potential in the real competitive gaming scene, and I don't think we should sidetrack it for another game that'll never reach the potential of those two.

I don't want to see the Melee hype go away, whether it be because Smash 4 came out or some other reason.

 

[oats_]

Look at Quake. Easily regarded as one of the most vanilla shooters that's been around for well over a decade and it's competitive scene still has tens of thousands of active players because it's so fast and has a truly competitive style.

That isn't the best comparison. Do you even play competitive quake? The game is nearly dead on a competitive level other than the occasional duels, there are hardly any players anymore compared to back in the day. Tens of thousands is a huge stretch, I would say more along the lines of 800-1000 people play it competitively.

 

[Bones0]

There are plenty of competitive COD players who make their living off of going to tournaments, streaming, and youtubing. That's not as feasible with Halo because there's not as many players in its scene. There are a lot of Halo pros who converted to COD because of a more existent tournament scene and ability to make money. Competitive players often choose to compete in games with the most players. MLG runs COD because of its popularity, which makes it more attractive to other players. The loss of Halo's top players made the game less attractive to compete in. COD is worse than Halo and even some of the top players say this, and they still play COD. But some of them do play Halo on their own free time and I think some of them go to the few(er) Halo tournaments that still run

The difference between those shooters and Smash is that no top Melee player will switch to Smash 4 for the money. All of the people that have made it that far in their career have poured their heart and soul into the game, even during a time where barlw was the more popular game. The average Halo player has never loved the game and the top players have always shown a tendency to do whatever will increase their paychecks as far as team changes or sponsors are concerned. That's not to say all Halo players are like that of course, but I have seen it first hand through my years with the community. If MLG had dropped Halo at any point so that it became a "poverty" game, I'm sure most of the pros would have abandoned it in a heartbeat. Melee has already BEEN poverty, and all of the top players around today went through that poverty phase so even if Smash 4 could steal the spotlight (it can't), Melee players wouldn't care.

 

[MookieRah]

I think it's telling that Melee has gained a lot of steam the past couple of years despite it being over a decade old during this growth. I don't think that has ever happened within any other competitive gaming community. Sm4sh will definitely impact things, much like Brawl did, but it really depends a lot on the melee competitive community as to whether or not Sm4sh kills melee. If Sm4sh doesn't fill the niche that melee has, I think it's entirely possible that melee can survive another smash sequel, and quite possibly see another resurgence once the Sm4sh hype dies down.

 

[MajinSweet]

I could see Melee getting even bigger in the coming years, not smaller. New faces to the scene, more people getting exposed to it.

 

[itsbme]

Melee isn't dieing anytime soon. It's so big now, and new players show up all the time. You got players like aMSa who came on the scene, lost to DrPeePee, and vowed to get better(he's actually quoted saying that). Many players have that drive, and that's what keeps everyone going. Getting better, showing people what you can do, and helping each other get better, and making some friends along the way.

Plus, I think another big thing is that Melee has characters that are unique and are varied. Yoshi's physics for example are very much unlike Marths, or Samus too. Having a lot of choices is fun!

The game is based around surviving; even if someone gets you to 200%, if you can keep out of bounds you still have a chance. It's exciting to play, and watch. You cheer when someone gets 4 stocked, you cheer when someone makes a three stock comeback.

It's simple enough to pick up, but hard to master. No buttons to memorize. All focus is on how you apply moves. It's rewarding to apply yourself to this game too, to see yourself get better. You don't feel that you were cheated when you lose, like with Pokemon games and the random luck factors.

At our core, we are all artists, and I think we like the idea of Melee being like our canvas to show our art. We get to show how we think the game should be played.

 

[EPsilon933]

Melee isn't dieing anytime soon. It's so big now, and new players show up all the time. You got players like aMSa who came on the scene, lost to DrPeePee, and vowed to get better(he's actually quoted saying that). Many players have that drive, and that's what keeps everyone going. Getting better, showing people what you can do, and helping each other get better, and making some friends along the way.

Plus, I think another big thing is that Melee has characters that are unique and are varied. Yoshi's physics for example are very much unlike Marths, or Samus too. Having a lot of choices is fun!

The game is based around surviving; even if someone gets you to 200%, if you can keep out of bounds you still have a chance. It's exciting to play, and watch. You cheer when someone gets 4 stocked, you cheer when someone makes a three stock comeback.

It's simple enough to pick up, but hard to master. No buttons to memorize. All focus is on how you apply moves. It's rewarding to apply yourself to this game too, to see yourself get better. You don't feel that you were cheated when you lose, like with Pokemon games and the random luck factors.

At our core, we are all artists, and I think we like the idea of Melee being like our canvas to show our art. We get to show how we think the game should be played.

I think most of these things can apply to Smash 4 too, namely competitive drive, making friends, community commitment, character designs, KOs focused on ring outs rather than health meters, and simplicity on the surface. You've described the Smash series in general. There's more concentration of most of these traits in Melee. I think there will be plenty of people in the community who commit to the game/series will be converting to Smash 4, or at least trying it out. There will be floods of new players with Smash 4 and I think the people converting who provide service can keep a new community organized and cohesive (there will be the less interested players who join then fade out of course. The ratio of how many that will fade out will depend on how good of a game Smash 4 ends up becoming)

 

[ChivalRuse]

Even if Smash 4 was amazing, I would still play Melee because Melee is amazing. But let's face it: Smash 4 will not be Amazing. It will probably be no better than a minor improvement to Brawl, if that.

As for the discussion on Fox and Falco taking over, I don't think we're seeing the bigger picture. Look at Axe, Amsa, Plup, Soft, KirbyKaze, Swedish Delight, Duck, and other high level Melee players who don't main spacies. The game is so deep that skill of the players is what matters above all, not character choices.

 

[Hax]

just be happy that the theoretical endgame characters in this game are the deepest, most well-designed, and entertaining ones. similar to MvC2 with Magneto, Storm, and Sentinel (all extremely skillful/deep characters that were unique from the rest of the cast, like spacies), this game's 20XX is still an excellent game. be happy that we don't have something like Brawl's Ice Climbers or UMvC3's Morrigan - badly designed, hype-killer top tiers that caused/are causing their respective games to die. every game has a theoretical 20XX because there's no such thing as perfect balance; it's a double standard to only call Melee flawed for having one. instead, you should see it as a testament to how far Melee has been pushed that we're even considering this a reality. another testament to Melee is the fact that this took 13 years, while games like Brawl and UMvC3 reached their endgames within just a few. honestly, I can say that if we reach a point where only Fox/Falco (and Marth/FD vs Fox) are viable, which I think we will, that Melee has as good of an endgame as you can ask for.

as it stands right now, I think we're down to 4 viable characters that can win nationals. I think Fox, Falco, and Marth can all do it on their own, and Peach can do it with a different character for Jigglypuff. I think Ice Climbers are crap at top level and completely rely on bad shield pressure/laggy errors from their opponent to capitalize on. Puff should not win vs Fox playing good, ever. Sheik is extremely overrated and feels like an inferior Marth; vs spacies at least. they're similar in terms of grab range/being defensive characters/good edgeguarding, but Marth is better in every category: grab range, better approach options, better edgeguarding, autocombos instead of techchasing with grab on reaction, etc. M2K is resorting more and more to ledge cheese with Sheik because of how weak her neutral game actually is, and while it's still catching people ( ;_; ), it won't work anymore soon. at top level right now, Marth and Peach are the 2 characters remaining that can play the neutral game with spacies IMO.

i'm really surprised to see that there are people that can't see how fast i'm improving/still doubt my switch to Fox, but I don't really care anymore. towards my last few months with Falcon I was hardly enjoying the game. nair and dashdance grab is basically Falcon's neutral game in a nutshell, and after 8 years it wasn't fun. plus, I'd hit a brick wall because the character's ceiling obviously doesn't compare to that of a spacie. I felt like there was no way I was ever going to crack top 5 with him. now, I have a blast even when training by myself as Fox, and I have limitless things to improve on. I already know for a fact that my Fox is a lot better than my Falcon ever was anyway. anyone who I've trained with (including M2K, Armada) will tell you that.

 

[Phantom High]

Even if Sm4sh does take over, there will still be tournaments for melee. Look at street fighter 2...this game has some competitive level last I heard. Granted it's not much but it's there.

I also feel like a Melee's boundaries can be push just a little bit more. I am not sure, but melee has the potential to change the meta...maybe not drastically but noticeable.

 

[TeddyRoseKidd]

Tell that to Mew2King. He'll tell you it's far better to invest all of your skill into a single character than to have multiple mediocre ones. Humans have limits

PPMD disproves that with ease. He kills it with falco and then out of nowhere creams m2k with his own character.

 

[MookieRah]

I'm going to say that 20XX might potentially be even more interesting than what Hax is claiming. We are now seeing an emergence of Yoshi users, and Pikachu and Doc don't look terrible either. I'm personally re-evaluating Mewtwo as a character with more potential than people give credit as well, but I doubt many would feel the same way as myself on this.

I think we, as a community, have been really silly with how we view the viability of characters. We tend to think that just because only a few players may perform well with some characters (like those I mentioned above) that it is because the specific player is somehow fundamentally perfect for that character, and their ability to perform well is based purely on player skill than anything else. I think that is a false assumption, which is not to say at all that these players are not to be given a ton of credit. It's hard to develop a character's meta on one's own, especially when everyone thinks that the character you are using is crap.

But what would the scene have looked like if we had 10 players that played Pikachu on the level that Axe/Pikachad plays? What if we had 10 Mewtwo players at Taj's level, 10 amazing Yoshi's and so on? It would show that these characters actually are viable and capable of performing well, instead of them just being written off as flukes. This would have made an impact on which characters people choose and which characters are considered viable. More people would be working on these characters and their meta, developing them further to help them deal with Fox/Falco, as well as their other bad match ups.

This has been proven before, for we as a community used to not think that Puff was so great. I mean, we knew Puff was good, but who would have put Puff in Top prior to the rise of Mango and Hbox? How many people thought that Peach was still a power house capable of winning huge tournaments before Armada?

I'm not claiming that there aren't tier lists or anything of the like. There are several cases of popular characters that just don't perform that well (Link and Roy comes to mind). I'm just saying that we cannot make the claim that we fully understand the capability of the lesser played characters, and that the popularity of characters has played a part of which characters are considered viable and which characters are not.

 

[Zone]

PPMD disproves that with ease. He kills it with falco and then out of nowhere creams m2k with his own character.

Actually that proves it more...

PPMD plays 2 character, M2K plays 3, 4 if you want to count his anti ice climber peach.

PPMD beating m2k with less mains actually strengthens that argument...

 

[itsbme]

PPMD uses Marth/Falco because it's all he needs it seems. Falco covers most of the cast, Marth covers Peach and apparantly M2K's Marth. He could invest in other characters but he really doesn't need to currently; he dominates as it is. You have someone like Mango who uses Falco/Fox/Falcon, and rarely Marth, and he's pretty dominate too. So I think it's better to invest in multiple characters to an extent so you have more options. But what do I know, haha.

I like your points MookieRah. The more people that come out of the wood work, like aMSa, the more chance a character is going to get explored and developed. I remember back in 2004 or so, Marth/Shiek/Fox/ were considered s-tier. Everything else like Yoshi and Pikachu were garbage. If you told me back in 2005 that characters like Yoshi would be viable one day, I wouldn't believe it. Now we have a Pikachu getting top 10 at 100+ man tournies. We have a Yoshi wrecking people in the top ten. Hell, a top Luigi main (EddyMexico) took a stacked tournament this year. It's exciting to see this growth, instead of the game being stagnant with 4 characters being viable to win.

Realistically, stuff like Ness may never be taken far, given his limitations, but maybe one day we may get surprised by some nut crazy enough to do it(besides Mofo, haha).

 

[JKJ]

i'm really surprised to see that there are people that can't see how fast i'm improving/still doubt my switch to Fox, but I don't really care anymore. towards my last few months with Falcon I was hardly enjoying the game. nair and dashdance grab is basically Falcon's neutral game in a nutshell, and after 8 years it wasn't fun. plus, I'd hit a brick wall because the character's ceiling obviously doesn't compare to that of a spacie. I felt like there was no way I was ever going to crack top 5 with him. now, I have a blast even when training by myself as Fox, and I have limitless things to improve on. I already know for a fact that my Fox is a lot better than my Falcon ever was anyway. anyone who I've trained with (including M2K, Armada) will tell you that.

If you truly weren't enjoying the game as Falcon anymore, I respect your switch to Fox, and I do think that you are far better than you ever were with Falcon, but I think you could have succeeded as Falcon. When I watch your set with Dr PP at EVO 2013, I don't see you getting dominated or looking helpless. I see you losing a very tight set in game three on a last stock match on his counterpick. I feel like you could have succeeded with Falcon, but if it's more fun for you as Fox, I understand. I only doubt your switch to Fox because I never knew the reasons. From what I heard, you basically switched because you thought "Falcon's not viable; I can't deny it anymore, Fox is the best in the game." which struck me as a character john for all losses you've ever had as Falcon. That's the mindset I disagree with. That's the mindset that I argue against and believe is toxic to the community. You switching to Fox because Falcon wasn't fun for you anymore is a very different instance than switching because you "obviously can't win with Falcon".

In essence, I was under the impression that you switching to Fox basically meant that you believed yourself to be better than the top players you were losing to, and that you thought you only lost in the past due to your character. That's what I disagreed with. I will say that from watching your Fox play now, it would appear to me (and I've said it before) that you're the best in the world at Fox dittos. I watched you play some friendlies vs. M2K at ROM7, and watched your set with Mango (I can't remember the tournament's name for the life of me) where you beat him in Fox dittos. I wish you the best of luck in the future. I'm glad to hear it straight from you as to why you switched characters, because it's vastly different from the reasons I heard.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Actually that proves it more...

PPMD plays 2 character, M2K plays 3, 4 if you want to count his anti ice climber peach.

PPMD beating m2k with less mains actually strengthens that argument...

There's no argument or proof here to be made. I think that what it boils down to is what Zoso has been known to say: "I pick who I think I have the best chance of winning with". He is known for being a successful dual main in Fox and Marth. Ultimately, the better player is the one who wins. Character familiarity is not a big issue because, let's face it, tech skill and character knowledge are easy to gain compared to other deeper aspects of the game (decision-making and game theory, mentality, adaptation, etc.).

 

[Zone]

There's no argument or proof here to be made. I think that what it boils down to is what Zoso has been known to say: "I pick who I think I have the best chance of winning with". He is known for being a successful dual main in Fox and Marth. Ultimately, the better player is the one who wins. Character familiarity is not a big issue because, let's face it, tech skill and character knowledge are easy to gain compared to other deeper aspects of the game (decision-making and game theory, mentality, adaptation, etc.).

I was just showing him the flaw in his argument. I don't necessarily argue for a side.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Yeah it was a pretty flawed argument I guess xD

 

[Diabolical]

Lol at all the people here thinking Smash4 was going to be a good competitive game that would rival Melee. I am aware most of these comments were from scrubs but seriously I can't believe how optimistic so many of you were for a game that is fundamentally a slightly modified Brawl. Even if Smash4 is good (which over 1500 entrants at EVO seem to think so), a game that plays like Brawl is not going to replace Melee. Actually there probably isn't anything that will replace it because Melee is much more than a fast paced dynamic fighting game, it is now a piece of history and with all the awesome stories and rivalries. There is now a large spectator-ship for Melee that have never even played the game because of how amazingly interesting it is to see Leffen vs Mango battle it out or people like Amsa and Axe repping it out for the unique characters and play styles. It was quite naive to think Melee was going to die. At least in the near future Melee is only going to get more and more popular.

 

[MEnKIRBZ]

Lol at all the people here thinking Smash4 was going to be a good competitive game that would rival Melee. I am aware most of these comments were from scrubs but seriously I can't believe how optimistic so many of you were for a game that is fundamentally a slightly modified Brawl. Even if Smash4 is good (which over 1500 entrants at EVO seem to think so), a game that plays like Brawl is not going to replace Melee. Actually there probably isn't anything that will replace it because Melee is much more than a fast paced dynamic fighting game, it is now a piece of history and with all the awesome stories and rivalries. There is now a large spectator-ship for Melee that have never even played the game because of how amazingly interesting it is to see Leffen vs Mango battle it out or people like Amsa and Axe repping it out for the unique characters and play styles. It was quite naive to think Melee was going to die. At least in the near future Melee is only going to get more and more popular.

Yea, the community was not split as bad as brawl because most of the community just expected sm4sh to not be melee 2.0, or some variations to justify switching to it

 

[Spak]

Lol at all the people here thinking Smash4 was going to be a good competitive game that would rival Melee. I am aware most of these comments were from scrubs but seriously I can't believe how optimistic so many of you were for a game that is fundamentally a slightly modified Brawl. Even if Smash4 is good (which over 1500 entrants at EVO seem to think so), a game that plays like Brawl is not going to replace Melee. Actually there probably isn't anything that will replace it because Melee is much more than a fast paced dynamic fighting game, it is now a piece of history and with all the awesome stories and rivalries. There is now a large spectator-ship for Melee that have never even played the game because of how amazingly interesting it is to see Leffen vs Mango battle it out or people like Amsa and Axe repping it out for the unique characters and play styles. It was quite naive to think Melee was going to die. At least in the near future Melee is only going to get more and more popular.

Well, hindsight is 20/20. We didn't know about the mechanics of the game when this thread was made (heck, when this thread was last replied to since your bump), so there was no way of knowing how it would effect Melee's competitive community. Had we known that Sm4sh was going to be a modified Brawl, it wouldn't have been such a concern.

Plus, 1MachGO said that Melee wouldn't die, but it would slow down after Sm4sh's release (which was wrong because of Sm4sh's gameplay, but again, we didn't know that).

 

[MookieRah]

This isn't a new or exciting opinion, but more so a combination of tons of things from this thread.

Melee isn't losing steam because it's super popular and nothing else exists like it. Yes, it's similar to Brawl and Sm4sh, but it's different enough that it could be it's own game (if you look at just it's mechanics). Melee will either die when a new game comes out that is much closer to melee than what we've seen, or several years from now when it will eventually run out of steam.

Sm4sh is popular because it is a better Brawl and it's still very new. It seems like a great game, it's just simpler and not nearly as technical as melee.

 

[elliotnz]

captain falcon still looks fun on sm4sh

 

[Diabolical]

captain falcon still looks fun on sm4sh

The fact that momentum doesn't continue into jumps means CFalons potential is very limited. You feel so slow and gimped playing any Smash4 character actually. They are all terrible and horribly designed because of how bad the fundamental engine is.

 

[Campoq]

Melee has survived for the longest time and I believe it will continue after the years of hardship it has had. The problem is the meta for Melee has evolved so far that it's hard for someone who wants to enter a Melee tournament to feel confident with themselves to beat their opponent. It'll take months or years to be able to master Melee as opposed to Smash 4. Smash 4 is really easy to get into than Melee. You now have people who wanted to enter a tournament playing Smash 4 to finally fulfilling that dream.

 

[Spak]

Melee has survived for the longest time and I believe it will continue after the years of hardship it has had. The problem is the meta for Melee has evolved so far that it's hard for someone who wants to enter a Melee tournament to feel confident with themselves to beat their opponent. It'll take months or years to be able to master Melee as opposed to Smash 4. Smash 4 is really easy to get into than Melee. You now have people who wanted to enter a tournament playing Smash 4 to finally fulfilling that dream.

And then after playing for a few years, the person getting instant gratification from Sm4sh tournaments will realize that the skill ceiling is way too low and they will eventually hit it along with a couple dozen other people, then the top 50 will be a big mess and someone who just started Sm4sh could hit the top of the ladder in two years. That's stark contrast to someone like Mang0 who has been playing the game for a long time and has been on top for years.

 

[Campoq]

And then after playing for a few years, the person getting instant gratification from Sm4sh tournaments will realize that the skill ceiling is way too low and they will eventually hit it along with a couple dozen other people, then the top 50 will be a big mess and someone who just started Sm4sh could hit the top of the ladder in two years. That's stark contrast to someone like Mang0 who has been playing the game for a long time and has been on top for years.

It could be a possibility for Sm4sh in the future yes but as for now, we don't know. What I said is my reasoning for the massive amount of Sm4sh entries at nationals. I only play Sm4sh competitively in my local scene but I definitely don't keep up with it at the pro level because I would rather see Melee being played

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

And then after playing for a few years, the person getting instant gratification from Sm4sh tournaments will realize that the skill ceiling is way too low and they will eventually hit it along with a couple dozen other people, then the top 50 will be a big mess and someone who just started Sm4sh could hit the top of the ladder in two years. That's stark contrast to someone like Mang0 who has been playing the game for a long time and has been on top for years.

Since when?

That depends on what they like or hate about a game, this is over simplifying that to make a rebuttal when Melee really is more difficult because of tech skill a lot of the time.

Simpler might be what people want.

As for Melee losing people because of difficulty of the skill floor, poor balance or just liking something else.

That isn't happening right now but it could and I find it more plasable than what would happen with Smash 4 because it is "easier"

 

[Spak]

As for Melee losing people because of difficulty of the skill floor, poor balance or just liking something else.

I agree that my theory on what may happen in a few years is just speculation (it may not even get to that point because there might be replaced by 5mash before we get the opportunity to see what happens), but so are your theories.

The difficulty of the skill floor might turn some people off, true, but I've had an increasing amount of fun as I learn the game and my characters better. That may not draw in new players as well, but it certainly keeps them interested if they've attended tournaments and seen themselves progress.

The game's balance is just fine in the top 12 characters, and that's just fine with me. The more viable characters you have, the more MUs you have to worry about and you know less about any given MU as you focus your knowledge on 8-12 instead of trying to focus on 55 (an overwheming number). Fro Melee, top S and A tiers have some hard MUs, but you can still see a high-level Falcon beat a high-level Fox or Shiek (Kels v. Gravy is a good example), who are considered hard counters. If there is a top tier that forms in Sm4sh who rises above everyone else, I'll honestly say that it has enhanced its meta because people could focus more on how to play against a specific character.

To your third point, someone liking something else could be said for someone who switches from Melee to Sm4sh or from Sm4sh to Melee, so that isn't really a valid point for either side. It's all a person's personal preferences.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I agree that my theory on what may happen in a few years is just speculation (it may not even get to that point because there might be replaced by 5mash before we get the opportunity to see what happens), but so are your theories.

The difficulty of the skill floor might turn some people off, true, but I've had an increasing amount of fun as I learn the game and my characters better. That may not draw in new players as well, but it certainly keeps them interested if they've attended tournaments and seen themselves progress.

The game's balance is just fine in the top 12 characters, and that's just fine with me. The more viable characters you have, the more MUs you have to worry about and you know less about any given MU as you focus your knowledge on 8-12 instead of trying to focus on 55 (an overwheming number). Fro Melee, top S and A tiers have some hard MUs, but you can still see a high-level Falcon beat a high-level Fox or Shiek (Kels v. Gravy is a good example), who are considered hard counters. If there is a top tier that forms in Sm4sh who rises above everyone else, I'll honestly say that it has enhanced its meta because people could focus more on how to play against a specific character.

To your third point, someone liking something else could be said for someone who switches from Melee to Sm4sh or from Sm4sh to Melee, so that isn't really a valid point for either side. It's all a person's personal preferences.

My theory has proof from higher levels of play.

Results are pushing people to maining a spacie more and more. Armada picking up fox, Hax pretty much dumped Falcon for Fox, more up and coming players turning to a spacie more and more.

That part of balance can be proven factually. People like Smash and that is why they are getting bigger and bigger with each tournament like Evo.

I don't buy the top 12 part at all, Link doesn't even make up a tenth of the results, in all results btw if you limit it to top 8 is gets way way worse in terms of how much someone down there shows up.

The games balance isn't that good. While I don't tell people "play a top tier" because that doesn't work for everyone, me included. But I wouldn't say Link is that good when results don't seem to point there.

Melee is top heavy in balance, works ok at the top but then is absolutely trash once you hit the cliff around spot 6-8. If it is, ok, but the spacie dominance is far worse than any other title outside of Brawl which had 1 character being a giant issue.

Still Melee is fine right now, but there is a trend is character selection that is pushing to those two a lot. That is a trend I don't think people should ignore, it is a real thing.

There are also other issues, like the CRT problem, legally getting a copy of Melee, etc. a lot of which can be fixed if Nintendo realeases Melee in VC, but I don't see that happening soon and I would hope they would do a better job of it than how N64 turned it with it's emulator issue it had.

Tl;dr, lots of rambling, I don't think issues with Smash 4 are that simple, I see issues simular in Melee and I see them being more of a problem than what would get called out on in Smash 4.

 

[Diabolical]

Tl;dr, lots of rambling, I don't think issues with Smash 4 are that simple, I see issues simular in Melee and I see them being more of a problem than what would get called out on in Smash 4.

Good point, for the context of which Smash game will continue to grow in popularity, your point is valid. But for those that already like and play Melee, the overall balance is one of the most significant reasons that we play Melee. Could Melee be balanced better? Well yes, but I think its a miracle that the fastest, mechanically deep characters with the most options in neutral are the top characters because then it makes the game fast and technical by definition. To give a crude example, imagine Puff or Kirby at the the top of Melee and see how the entire game suddenly encourages defensive and slow play. Another way to look at it is (just about) no one that likes Melee likes it because of Zelda, Bowser, Kirby, Puff ect. We like it because of the fast and technical meta that are encouraged by around 10 of the characters - Particularly Fox, Falco and Marth. If you don't like any of the top characters in Melee, you might as well play Smash4 or Brawl because most of the rest encourage Brawl like play styles anyway

 

[Steelo Rivers]

New casual players only care about looks and how easy the game is. Games like melee are scary to new players that dont have a competitive mindset. Same **** happened with Starcraft, DotA, Marvel, and pretty much any other competitive game that has had a sequel. The competitive and vocal fan base are much smaller than the casual fan base, and companies. It sucks that it is that way but, that's the truth. Also, melee hd will never be released because nintendo would be releasing an old title that will compete with it's current "fresh and shiney" brand new game that is Super Smash Bros for Wii U and 3DS. The games can co-exist, but the easiest to access and have fun with will outlive the seemingly "outdated".

I started playing Smash with Smash 4, then realized it was ass and switched to PM. PM seemed weird and clunky so I switched to Melee and never will I play the others again (at least st a competitive level) because they don't appeal to me or match my mindset. When Melee finally does die (when we get old), ill probably never look at another smash game again.

 

[The Young Izzy Iz]

Melee HD on the Wii U anyone?

It wouldn't look/play like you think it would. Nintendo would probably take the time to fix all the errors and glitches from vanilla melee meaning no more dash dancing/wavedashing/etc.