Guide Let's Step Up the Intensity: Wii Fit Competitive Discussion and Advanced Techs

[Lord_Espurr]

Jumbo hoops is great for edge guarding because it covers a wide area and stays out for a long time. Hurricane hoops is pretty bad because you can't move left or right and the hits don't always connect.

Sun canceling is just sheilding when you are charging sun salutation.

 

[Fancykong]

Managed to pull off a jab lock using Fair (the leg). Apparently Japanese players discovered it recently, too.

 

[Squeaky (alias Squeaky)]

Hey, Ive been experimenting with Wii Fit and I think I might have found an interesting combo at 0:
Fast-fall Nair into back hit of F-tilt into Up Smash
I have not tested this on every character, nor the highest percent this can work at, but I'll get on that.

Old account broke, I'm pretty mad about that.

 

[Fancykong]

So thanks to the patch, new Header Feint shenanigans are possible. Just hit the lab before bed and found two new ones:

Header Ledge Trumping(!):
When approaching from offstage, you can Header Feint, grab the ledge, and bair. This opens up new ledge trump possibilities since the ball flies diagonally upwards towards the opponent.

Header Back Throw:
Back throwing someone into the header ball at close range deals the throw's damage plus the set 8% from the ball. When done at low to mid percents, the effect looks like Pac-Man when he back throws people into his green melon. Also works with forward throw, but the timing is stricter since the throw takes longer. Up throw is a no go.

Will update with a video demo later.

 

[Lord_Espurr]

Header Back Throw:
Back throwing someone into the header ball at close range deals the throw's damage plus the set 8% from the ball. When done at low to mid percents, the effect looks like Pac-Man when he back throws people into his green melon. Also works with forward throw, but the timing is stricter since the throw takes longer. Up throw is a no go.

Will update with a video demo later.

I was messing around with this today and I found something really weird.

If you cancel the header, fastfall, then immediately grab and pummel, the hitbox from the pummel should knock the ball in the perfect place for a back throw.

Here's where the weird part is: sometimes you'll be able to follow up the back throw with a reverse fair (if they miss the tech) and sometimes you won't.

I really don't know why I can follow up. Mario is going the same distance either way and wii fits grab release animation doesn't look any faster.

So far I've only gotten the follow up-able release with Mario. Others either always gets the unfollowup-able release or fly off before the ball can hit them.

 

[Fancykong]

Oooh, this is getting interesting! Of all characters to get a grab release follow-up.

Oh by the way, here are the video demos for the header stuff I promised.

https://vine.co/v/eUUxUvgIi7p

https://vine.co/v/eUUPVTliiqp

Edit: OH MY GOODNESS, THE PUMMEL INTO BACK THROW REALLY WORKS. HOLD MY BALANCE BOARD, 23% FROM JUST ONE THROW.. Which percent did you back throw Mario for the reverse fair follow up?

Here's the jab-pummel-backthrow demo for everyone else reading the thread:

https://vine.co/v/ePbJ5tIK6d5

 

[Lord_Espurr]

I've worked with this a little more and I think I've figured out what's happening.

So you know how her back throw is two hits? This works when the first hit of the throw hits the ball into them while they are in hitstop from the second hit. Then when they go into the grab release animation, they'll still be in the hitstop from b throw before they fly off.

This is why it works best on midsize characters like Mario or Villager. Bigger characters like Bowser or DDD will get hit by the ball before they get hit by the second hit of b throw. If you drift a tiny bit to the left or right after canceling the header you can hit thinner characters, but I've only managed to do this once.

Last, I lied in my first post, you should wait until the ball is at her midsection before you pummel.

 

[Fancykong]

you should wait until the ball is at her midsection before you pummel.

This technique is getting lewd.

 

[BoxedOccaBerrys]

What are the best times to use header in a match? and is it better to use offstage or on stage?

 

[Fancykong]

Depends on if you want the ball or the body. The ball is good for extra pressure and damage on stage and edgeguarding as well. It all depends on whether you like to header cancel or Header Feint. It's good for recovery too. Use it in place of your jump so you can attack and save yourself if necessary.

The body is good for spiking and reads (it has a low % combo out of reverse Ftilt too). The diagonal angle means that if read correctly, you can meteor someone while above the stage and watch them still die. It's helpful against heavies who can even withstand multiple smash attacks. Here is an example of me doing the header spike onstage and off:
https://youtu.be/_j2xQzrGjbY
There's also Nair-> Header as well. Just remember to drop the ball if you want the body.

TLDR: It's a great move and should be used a lot, just in different ways.

 

[Fancykong]

Just wanted to show off how you can use Header Cancel to edgeguard high as well. This Mewtwo had a habit of recovering really high and teleporting. Because of my percentage, I didn't want to risk a physical edgeguard, so I covered his high option with Header Feint (can I just call it HF?) Utilt. Then I covered his teleport option by charging my SS. This caused Mewtwo to recover low, which is bad for him since his jumps and upB have ledge snap issues. Although he could have reflected, it looks like he thought that he ledge snap, but didn't, giving me a free punish. Here's the clip:

https://vine.co/v/eQnapwDw9Vb

Even if you aren't that much into projectile based combat, I believe that this edgeguarding tech needs to be implemented into your playstyle from a meta standpoint.

 

[RobertDan]

Hello! My first post on here so...not sure if the right place or not. Or if this has been said already but...
I found that doing header directly under someone trying to edge guard you, for instance on Battlefield, the edge, the spike hitbox goes on the stage and hits the opponent. Not sure how useful...

 

[ForgottenLabRat]

Did you guys know that you can dodge out of the beginning of SideB making the ball drop right in front of you? The only bad part is that if puts you in special fall, but it's just kind of a cool trick. If you do a forward smash with the ball on top of you it does like 28% or something like that.

 

[⑨ball]

Not exclusive to WFT, but certainly much more likely to help us(similar to Rtacc).

Airdodge canceling
If you face forward while airdodging into the ground and move off of a ledge your landing lag will be canceled similar to what you see teleport users do. Thanks to b reversing and frame 1 air dodges, generally strong ledge and platform play, this could be a really powerful tool in our arsenal.


Instant Ledge Hop Variation 2
Ride up the side of a stage while holding down and when you are even an inch over the stage, use fair, uair, or nair for an instant fast fall aerial that will autocancel before the hitbox becomes active putting you in neutral without going into any of the get up ledge options. We already know about the first variation that uses DB canceled jump from the ledge. This one uses ledge release (by pressing back or down) combined with the early autocancel frames of her aerials to ride up stage ledges and go instantly into whatever. It can be really useful as a mixup, especially against opponents that like to do things like shield into OoS nair, since you can go right into things like roll canceled grab for a sliding disjointed pivot grab, or into crouch for anti air shenanigans.

 

[John12346]

So here's a relatively useless technique I just discovered. It looks rather stylish though.

Reverse Header
With Wii Fit Trainer, perform a Header Cancel. Then get on the other side of the ball and smack it with another Header. Instead of travelling in the direction you hit it, it will travel backwards! Attacking the ball with any other moves will send it in the correct direction.

 

[Fancykong]

Speaking of which, I've actually gotten people with Header Feint into Bair multiple times. It just catches them off guard when they're trying to approach me.

Also, a VERY important edgeguarding tool I've found when fighting Peach players is Header Feint into reverse Ftilt. Thanks to the new ball "health" it actually flies very far upwards while retaining its hitbox, allowing you to cover the upper area where Peach would normally use to float stall.

 

[DRU192]

I think WFT benefits a lot from Sliding Pivots, been trying some stuff out with her and thought I'd share what I found:

 

[John12346]

So, let’s talk about Jab Header.

To my understanding, it was a tech that came about because of the massive endlag we used to receive from a Header Cancel, pre-patch. At the time, smacking the ball with the front hit of Jab 1 was all we could really do if we wanted to send it somewhere. However, it did not even seem to be terribly useful, as the ball traveled at a very high arc, and its hitbox did not last throughout the entire travel.

Now, as we all know, our Header Cancel has been buffed quite significantly, giving us almost no landing lag to speak of. This consequently opened up some new trick shots. The most useful ones, I believe, are Reverse Jab Header, and Header Cancel Header, which send the ball flying upwards or downwards, respectively, at a very low angle, and at great speeds. With either of these, the ball will have a hitbox for its entire flight path. These can be useful for controlling specific scenarios or providing additional pressure if followed up with a well placed Sun Salutation.

However, between these two trick shots and the original Jab Header, we don’t really have a trick shot that sends the ball moving at a slow pace that we can follow behind AND that gives it a constant hitbox the whole way through. After labbing with Header Cancels for a little while, though, I discovered that there is a move that Wii Fit can use to have the ball meet these criteria, thus giving us the following new piece of technology:
.
.
.
Jab 2 Header:
So this is it. The second hit of Wii Fit’s Jab, much like the first, sends the ball moving at a very slow pace. And since our Jab 2 ends relatively quickly, we can actually follow behind it. In addition, Jab 2 is actually strong enough to provide the ball with a constant hitbox throughout its entire flight! Very nice.

It’s a little tricky, but it is well worth it if you can learn to pull it off consistently. Here are the moves you need to use: Header > Instant Cancel > Fast Fall > Jab 1 (whiff) > Jab 2 (to hit the ball)

Now, what’s interesting about this tech is that, depending on whether you knee the ball from below, straight on, or above, the ball will actually travel at a different arc. You can achieve this by delaying your Jab 2 after Jab 1 to allow the ball to drop a little further. The lower you allow the ball to fall, the lower of an arc it will take when it is struck by Jab 2, and the slower it will travel. Of course, if the ball moves slowly, it’ll be easier for us to follow behind it, so try to hit the ball when it’s as low as it can go. If the ball is too low, it’s possible for your Jab 2 to miss, so keep that in mind.

The most practical application I can imagine for this tech is performing a Jab 2 Header, following behind it, and then mixing up between dash grab, Sun Salutation, and Uair, based on how your opponent responds between shielding, not shielding, and jumping. I would say it's similar to the mixups Luigi has with his Fireball, if you need a point of reference.

Some other notes:
- If you’re going to shoot your Sun after the ball, make sure to delay it a bit, because if the ball is in the way and it hasn’t disappeared yet, it’ll just tank your Sun, and that’s no fun.
- Jab 2 Header is probably not going to be useful against characters who approach with projectiles, like Mario and Luigi, since they’re capable of simply hitting the ball back with their projectile as they’re coming in.
- If you’re beginning to set up Jab 2 Header, and the opponent begins to approach at that time, be ready to retreat by holding backwards immediately after the Header Cancel.
.
.
.
So, with all that in mind, if you like massive amounts of button pushing, Wii Fit could do something like this in the neutral: Short hop towards the opponent to threaten them with Bair, then B Reverse a Sun Salutation charge to threaten them with that instead. Then, when they flinch/retreat, you can shield cancel into a jump and perform Jab 2 Header from there, resulting in this massive input string:

Left, Right+X, B, Right, R, X, Right+B, R, Down, A, A

Starting to look a lot like the year 20WF, wouldn’t you say!?

Anyway… with this new technology in mind, we should probably rename the original Jab Header to Jab 1 Header, with this one’s name being Jab 2 Header? Perhaps we could get into the habit of abbreviating those Header shots, too. Just a thought.

Jab 1 Header: J1H
Jab 2 Header: J2H
Reverse Jab Header: RJH
Header Cancel Header: HCH

Have fun~

 

[⑨ball]

DRU192 how are you getting your vines to look so clean?

I can forgo a lot of decision making with tutorials if I can just release good looking videos like that every time I find something interesting.

 

[DRU192]

DRU192 how are you getting your vines to look so clean?

I can forgo a lot of decision making with tutorials if I can just release good looking videos like that every time I find something interesting.

They're chopped up YouTube uploads that I send from Smash. I use iMovie on my phone. Looking forward to seeing your vids bro

 

[⑨ball]

Haha, you and me both. I'll do some testing tonight and if I can't get it I'll probably send you a PM or two.

 

[DRU192]

Haha, you and me both. I'll do some testing tonight and if I can't get it I'll probably send you a PM or two.

Cool, I'll help as much as I can.

 

[Fancykong]

So, let’s talk about Jab Header.

To my understanding, it was a tech that came about because of the massive endlag we used to receive from a Header Cancel, pre-patch. At the time, smacking the ball with the front hit of Jab 1 was all we could really do if we wanted to send it somewhere. However, it did not even seem to be terribly useful, as the ball traveled at a very high arc, and its hitbox did not last throughout the entire travel.

Now, as we all know, our Header Cancel has been buffed quite significantly, giving us almost no landing lag to speak of. This consequently opened up some new trick shots. The most useful ones, I believe, are Reverse Jab Header, and Header Cancel Header, which send the ball flying upwards or downwards, respectively, at a very low angle, and at great speeds. With either of these, the ball will have a hitbox for its entire flight path. These can be useful for controlling specific scenarios or providing additional pressure if followed up with a well placed Sun Salutation.

However, between these two trick shots and the original Jab Header, we don’t really have a trick shot that sends the ball moving at a slow pace that we can follow behind AND that gives it a constant hitbox the whole way through. After labbing with Header Cancels for a little while, though, I discovered that there is a move that Wii Fit can use to have the ball meet these criteria, thus giving us the following new piece of technology:
.
.
.
Jab 2 Header:
So this is it. The second hit of Wii Fit’s Jab, much like the first, sends the ball moving at a very slow pace. And since our Jab 2 ends relatively quickly, we can actually follow behind it. In addition, Jab 2 is actually strong enough to provide the ball with a constant hitbox throughout its entire flight! Very nice.

It’s a little tricky, but it is well worth it if you can learn to pull it off consistently. Here are the moves you need to use: Header > Instant Cancel > Fast Fall > Jab 1 (whiff) > Jab 2 (to hit the ball)

Now, what’s interesting about this tech is that, depending on whether you knee the ball from below, straight on, or above, the ball will actually travel at a different arc. You can achieve this by delaying your Jab 2 after Jab 1 to allow the ball to drop a little further. The lower you allow the ball to fall, the lower of an arc it will take when it is struck by Jab 2, and the slower it will travel. Of course, if the ball moves slowly, it’ll be easier for us to follow behind it, so try to hit the ball when it’s as low as it can go. If the ball is too low, it’s possible for your Jab 2 to miss, so keep that in mind.

The most practical application I can imagine for this tech is performing a Jab 2 Header, following behind it, and then mixing up between dash grab, Sun Salutation, and Uair, based on how your opponent responds between shielding, not shielding, and jumping. I would say it's similar to the mixups Luigi has with his Fireball, if you need a point of reference.

Some other notes:
- If you’re going to shoot your Sun after the ball, make sure to delay it a bit, because if the ball is in the way and it hasn’t disappeared yet, it’ll just tank your Sun, and that’s no fun.
- Jab 2 Header is probably not going to be useful against characters who approach with projectiles, like Mario and Luigi, since they’re capable of simply hitting the ball back with their projectile as they’re coming in.
- If you’re beginning to set up Jab 2 Header, and the opponent begins to approach at that time, be ready to retreat by holding backwards immediately after the Header Cancel.
.
.
.
So, with all that in mind, if you like massive amounts of button pushing, Wii Fit could do something like this in the neutral: Short hop towards the opponent to threaten them with Bair, then B Reverse a Sun Salutation charge to threaten them with that instead. Then, when they flinch/retreat, you can shield cancel into a jump and perform Jab 2 Header from there, resulting in this massive input string:

Left, Right+X, B, Right, R, X, Right+B, R, Down, A, A

Starting to look a lot like the year 20WF, wouldn’t you say!?

Anyway… with this new technology in mind, we should probably rename the original Jab Header to Jab 1 Header, with this one’s name being Jab 2 Header? Perhaps we could get into the habit of abbreviating those Header shots, too. Just a thought.

Jab 1 Header: J1H
Jab 2 Header: J2H
Reverse Jab Header: RJH
Header Cancel Header: HCH

Have fun~

So in the same vein, would the others look like this?

Uptilt Header = UTH
Ftilt Header = FTH
Dtilt Header = DTH
Reverse Ftilt Header = RFTH
Jab 1 Header Pummel = J1HP
Jab 1 Header Back Throw = J1HBth
Jab 1 Header Forward Throw = J1HFth
Jab 1 Header Pummel into Backthrow = J1HPBth

Header Landing Lag Cancel (the short hop version) = HC
Header Feint (the tapping shield version) = HF

There's more, but I just wanted to see what people thought about these since some may seem outlandish or have varying definitions .

Also, it's great to see that this section of the board is getting more popular! I come back and see movement into attack options and J2H, plus ledge mixups and airdodge cancelling. It does my balance board good to have more cool tech to practice!

 

[John12346]

So I was able to utilize J2H in a few tournament matches just this weekend. Understanding the distances you need to be from the opponent in order to safely set this up is tricky, but the pressure you can attain from successfully pulling it off it waaay worth it.

Remembering to mix it up between retreating, RJH, and HCH depending on how the opponent reacts to the ball appearing is very important too. You can stuff a lot of responses if you choose the correct trick shot, that's for sure.

 

[Fancykong]

Can you make a short demo video of J2H? I'd like to see the exact distance/timing needed.

 

[John12346]

Can you make a short demo video of J2H? I'd like to see the exact distance/timing needed.

Alas, I don't have the ability to record things at present. Just hit the lab and knee that ball a few times, to see what kinds of trajectories you can get. It's pretty easy to pick up and understand, all things considered.

Just keep the following in mind:
- Avoid any lateral movement after doing the cancel to keep the spacing consistent.
- Make sure to fastfall immediately after cancelling too.
- Do the Jab 1 while the ball is too high for you to hit it.

 

[BoxedOccaBerrys]

I'm having trouble with the match-up, do you have any tips for him?
Editing this since i have other questions:
I have problems with also, could I get some tips?
I have a problem with ledge getups, how should you get on the stage with her?
Does fast fall up-air have any use?
When I do the N-air kill set up, I always do either both hits, or the last hit of it... any tips on how to do the nair-usmash thing WITHOUT messing it up?

red wii fit trainer skin is the best... fite me.

 

[BoxedOccaBerrys]

apologies for the double post.

I seem to have trouble DIing against 's moves, and i always get hit by rest... any tips for jiggs?

 

[John12346]

I'm certain this will come in handy. Fresh UThrow kill percents against Mario.

Have fun~

 

[Cress!]

Ignore I'm dumb and didn't read the entire picture.

 

[Wii Twerk Trainer]

I'm certain this will come in handy. Fresh UThrow kill percents against Mario.

Have fun~

Thank you so much for taking the time out of your day to create this Sir Numbers. Greatly appreciated

 

[BoxedOccaBerrys]

Well I'm back with a new stupid question, YAY!

I find myself playing extremely patiently against , is this the correct way to play against Diddy Kong?

(by patient I mean I slowly racked on damage with SS and Headers, and I barely threw out any moves, besides a few Jackknifes here and there (Jackknifes are Wii Fit's N-air))

 

[xx99]

I'm having trouble finding a definitive answer — is there a difference between Header Cancel and Header Feint?

 

[Lakuto]

I'm having trouble finding a definitive answer — is there a difference between Header Cancel and Header Feint?

Actually there are people that are calling same thing in different ways. I think it should be nice to settle to one unique way to define moves.

I know most of people refer to "Header Cancel" when you press "shield" during your side-b animation while some call it "Header Feint".

I also know that those who call it "Header Feint" refer to "Header Cancel" when you do a short hop header to "cancel" the landing lag of the side-b. The other call it "Short Hop Header".

Correct me if I am wrong. I got used to it but it may be confusing for some new guys here...

 

[Doc Chalk]

There was something I noticed when I was watching one of Neo's Roy matches some time ago. It was a dash back into d-tilt. The video is here, if you'd like to see it in action. (It's around the 0:35 mark)

I started practicing it with Roy myself, and after looking around the Roy boards, I found a comment from Sethlon stating that it was akin to something from Melee where there was a frame during dash dancing where the character was standing still, and could perform moves as if in neutral position.

I had been thinking about how this could be implemented with other characters, and my first thought was Little Mac, as I knew that his Perfect Pivot u-tilt was known to be fairly good, but was surprised that I hadn't seen it being used before. I kept thinking, and it happened to me that dash towards into u-tilt might be an effective rushdown tool for WFT on landing opponents, as u-tilt is amazing as anti-air.

The technique really isn't too difficult to perform, either, at least when one has the c-stick set to attack. Simply perform a foxtrot cancel and flick the stick up right afterwards. The timing seems a little strict, but I've gotten it down to semi-consistency after a bit of practice, and I have trouble with most other movement tech such as RTACC, Reverse DACUS (If that's still the name for it), and Perfect Pivoting.

I thought it might be nice to have some input from the other more competent WFT mains on whether or not this could actually be effective in matches. Personally I think it might be a little niche, as the distance at which you can perform it is fixed, but it's still great anti-air, so perhaps it will have utility.

 

[Lvl99Gamer]

Alas, I don't have the ability to record things at present. Just hit the lab and knee that ball a few times, to see what kinds of trajectories you can get. It's pretty easy to pick up and understand, all things considered.

Just keep the following in mind:
- Avoid any lateral movement after doing the cancel to keep the spacing consistent.
- Make sure to fastfall immediately after cancelling too.
- Do the Jab 1 while the ball is too high for you to hit it.

Reading through all of this made me pretty excited for WFT (didn't even knew you could header cancel) However, I got legitimately sad when I found out the ball doesn't have a hitbox unless you hit it, aka no dropping the ball straight down for gimps (think z-dropping turnips for peach)

Still, she might be a good candidate in my quest for a secondary still. I found myself actually preferring to fight offstage, often taking the fight there 'cause it's more comfortable which I find very unique.

 

[BoxedOccaBerrys]

What uses can Wii Fit have using JC tosses?

Also what are the best OOS options on approach heavy character?

 

[Lakuto]

Has anyone thought of Jab3 after a jablock?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0IYSmXCMN8
This is a true combo on Ryu, you may escape the Reverse Fair if he DI the right way. It mey not kill if the player is mashing fast enough.

 

[Lvl99Gamer]

Has anyone thought of Jab3 after a jablock?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0IYSmXCMN8
This is a true combo on Ryu, you may escape the Reverse Fair if he DI the right way. It mey not kill if the player is mashing fast enough.

You can almost always count on them mashing as fast as possible though. For every 200 matches you maybe meet one guy who doesn't mash like his life depends on it.

That being said, it's great you're doing research into WFT combo's. Her combo's are hard to find thanks to a weak grab game sadly, which are usually the easiest guaranteed combo's, not even just throws but grabbing and pummeling itself hardly ever seem worth it.

 

[Lakuto]

Yeah, what you do after the burry is up to personal preferance. In an actual match I wouldn't go for Upsmash at those percents personally (especially if I have the lead).

That being said, it's great you're doing research into WFT combo's. Her combo's are hard to find thanks to a weak grab game sadly, which are usually the easiest guaranteed combo's, not even just throws but grabbing and pummeling itself hardly ever seem worth it.

Very true. But most people don't know WFT can't follow out of Dthrow so they mash the airdodge. My next step would be to optimize the airdodge punish with those kind of combos.