Let's Laugh Logically// A ZSS Matchup Experience.

[Hence]

This thread was going to be my own project, but I decided to get the community involved. It (hopefully) will not only improve your understanding of the game, but ideally help in each specific matchup. We'll technically be creating an entirly sitation-based matchup thread. Whereas a normal matchup thread lists strengths and weaknesses, I'd like to take every possibility into consideration. There is no timeframe as to when this is supposed to be completed. Neither is it limited to any specific character for any length of time as normal matchup threads are.

Here's an example:
MK is on the ledge.
What are his character specific options on/from the ledge?

1. Drillrush/Dimensional Cape/Shuttle Loop Stall.
2. MT from under the stage.
3. Shuttle Loop from under the stage.
4. Drillrush.
5. Dimensional Cape.
6. N-Air from the ledge.
7. F-Air from the ledge.
8. U-Air from the ledge.
9. Ledge Jump > Glide.

You have to take each of these options into consideration, as well as the standard ledge attack, ledge getup, ledge jump, and roll. My ultimate goal would be to point out our best option to each situation, as well as highlight the opponents character's most frequently used options. This would make prediction, manipulation, and the psychology of smash as a whole much easier to understand.

ZSS is similar to Diddy Kong in that she has guaranteed follow ups. She can create awkward or troubling situations from "GO!". She can be aggressive while being defensive. Many of you here are underestimating the power of our Paralyzer (neutral b). It quickly turns a neutral state into a favorable one, whether they shield or not (provided they don't powershield). When the opponent drops their shield, we have the fastest attack in the game ready to punish them. Either way, you're pressuring them. This thread is about situations, but moreso about creating them. Either by prediction, manipulation, or otherwise. With that said, you can still be aggressive with ZSS by predicting your opponent's next move, but you have to know their options first.Knowing what approaches work against certain characters and when has a place here too.

You could consider this an "Ultimate Matchup Thread". If you don't main ZSS, but have information about your main or another character corresponding to ZSS, feel free to post here as well. I'll update this thread once a day, provided we have routine information coming in.

Meta Knight
Positional Situations:
You are behind them:

You are in front of them:

They are on the ledge:

You are on the ledge:

You are above them:

You are below them:

They are recovering:

You are recovering:

Neutral:
Moveset:

Jab:

Dash Attack:

Forward Tilt:

Down Tilt:

Up Tilt:

Up Smash:

Down Smash:

Forward Smash:

Neutral Aerial:

Forward Aerial:

Down Aerial:

Back Aerial:

Up Aerial:

Neutral Special:

Side Special:

Down Special:

Forward Roll:

Backwards Roll:

Spotdodge:

Airdodge:

Getup Attack

Ledge Attack:

Short Hop:

Full Jump:

Double Jump:

Shield:

Advanced Techniques:

Recorded Matches:

King Dedede
Positional Situations:
You are behind them:

You are in front of them:

They are on the ledge:

You are on the ledge:

You are above them:

You are below them:

They are recovering:

You are recovering:

Neutral:
Moveset:

Jab:

Dash Attack:

Forward Tilt:

Down Tilt:

Up Tilt:

Up Smash:

Down Smash:

Forward Smash:

Neutral Aerial:

Forward Aerial:

Down Aerial:

Back Aerial:

Up Aerial:

Neutral Special:

Side Special:

Down Special:

Forward Roll:

Backwards Roll:

Spotdodge:

Airdodge:

Getup Attack

Ledge Attack:

Short Hop:

Full Jump:

Double Jump:

Shield:

Advanced Techniques:

Recorded Matches:

Snake
Positional Situations:
You are behind them:

You are in front of them:

They are on the ledge:

You are on the ledge:

You are above them:

You are below them:

They are recovering:

You are recovering:

Neutral:
Moveset:

Jab:

Dash Attack:

Forward Tilt:

Down Tilt:

Up Tilt:

Up Smash:

Down Smash:

Forward Smash:

Neutral Aerial:

Forward Aerial:

Down Aerial:

Back Aerial:

Up Aerial:

Neutral Special:

Side Special:

Down Special:

Forward Roll:

Backwards Roll:

Spotdodge:

Airdodge:

Getup Attack

Ledge Attack:

Short Hop:

Full Jump:

Double Jump:

Shield:

Advanced Techniques:

Recorded Matches:

ROB
Positional Situations:
You are behind them:

You are in front of them:

They are on the ledge:

You are on the ledge:

You are above them:

You are below them:

They are recovering:

You are recovering:

Neutral:
Moveset:

Jab:

Dash Attack:

Forward Tilt:

Down Tilt:

Up Tilt:

Up Smash:

Down Smash:

Forward Smash:

Neutral Aerial:

Forward Aerial:

Down Aerial:

Back Aerial:

Up Aerial:

Neutral Special:

Side Special:

Down Special:

Forward Roll:

Backwards Roll:

Spotdodge:

Airdodge:

Getup Attack

Ledge Attack:

Short Hop:

Full Jump:

Double Jump:

Shield:

Advanced Techniques:

Recorded Matches:

Donkey Kong
Positional Situations:
You are behind them:

You are in front of them:

They are on the ledge:

You are on the ledge:

You are above them:

You are below them:

They are recovering:

You are recovering:

Neutral:
Moveset:

Jab:

Dash Attack:

Forward Tilt:

Down Tilt:

Up Tilt:

Up Smash:

Down Smash:

Forward Smash:

Neutral Aerial:

Forward Aerial:

Down Aerial:

Back Aerial:

Up Aerial:

Neutral Special:

Side Special:

Down Special:

Forward Roll:

Backwards Roll:

Spotdodge:

Airdodge:

Getup Attack

Ledge Attack:

Short Hop:

Full Jump:

Double Jump:

Shield:

Advanced Techniques:

Recorded Matches:

Marth
Positional Situations:
You are behind them:

You are in front of them:

They are on the ledge:

You are on the ledge:

You are above them:

You are below them:

They are recovering:

You are recovering:

Neutral:
Moveset:

Jab:

Dash Attack:

Forward Tilt:

Down Tilt:

Up Tilt:

Up Smash:

Down Smash:

Forward Smash:

Neutral Aerial:

Forward Aerial:

Down Aerial:

Back Aerial:

Up Aerial:

Neutral Special:

Side Special:

Down Special:

Forward Roll:

Backwards Roll:

Spotdodge:

Airdodge:

Getup Attack

Ledge Attack:

Short Hop:

Full Jump:

Double Jump:

Shield:

Advanced Techniques:

Recorded Matches:

Falco
Positional Situations:
You are behind them:

You are in front of them:

They are on the ledge:

You are on the ledge:

You are above them:

You are below them:

They are recovering:

You are recovering:

Neutral:
Moveset:

Jab:

Dash Attack:

Forward Tilt:

Down Tilt:

Up Tilt:

Up Smash:

Down Smash:

Forward Smash:

Neutral Aerial:

Forward Aerial:

Down Aerial:

Back Aerial:

Up Aerial:

Neutral Special:

Side Special:

Down Special:

Forward Roll:

Backwards Roll:

Spotdodge:

Airdodge:

Getup Attack

Ledge Attack:

Short Hop:

Full Jump:

Double Jump:

Shield:

Advanced Techniques:

Recorded Matches:

Mr. Game and Watch
Positional Situations:
You are behind them:

You are in front of them:

They are on the ledge:

You are on the ledge:

You are above them:

You are below them:

They are recovering:

You are recovering:

Neutral:
Moveset:

Jab:

Dash Attack:

Forward Tilt:

Down Tilt:

Up Tilt:

Up Smash:

Down Smash:

Forward Smash:

Neutral Aerial:

Forward Aerial:

Down Aerial:

Back Aerial:

Up Aerial:

Neutral Special:

Side Special:

Down Special:

Forward Roll:

Backwards Roll:

Spotdodge:

Airdodge:

Getup Attack

Ledge Attack:

Short Hop:

Full Jump:

Double Jump:

Shield:

Advanced Techniques:

Recorded Matches:

Diddy Kong
Positional Situations:
You are behind them:

You are in front of them:

They are on the ledge:

You are on the ledge:

You are above them:

You are below them:

They are recovering:

You are recovering:

Neutral:
Moveset:

Jab:

Dash Attack:

Forward Tilt:

Down Tilt:

Up Tilt:

Up Smash:

Down Smash:

Forward Smash:

Neutral Aerial:

Forward Aerial:

Down Aerial:

Back Aerial:

Up Aerial:

Neutral Special:

Side Special:

Down Special:

Forward Roll:

Backwards Roll:

Spotdodge:

Airdodge:

Getup Attack

Ledge Attack:

Short Hop:

Full Jump:

Double Jump:

Shield:

Advanced Techniques:

Recorded Matches:

Bowser
Positional Situations:
You are behind them:

You are in front of them:

They are on the ledge:

You are on the ledge:

You are above them:

You are below them:

They are recovering:

You are recovering:

Neutral:
Moveset:

Jab:

Dash Attack:

Forward Tilt:

Down Tilt:

Up Tilt:

Up Smash:

Down Smash:

Forward Smash:

Neutral Aerial:

Forward Aerial:

Down Aerial:

Back Aerial:

Up Aerial:

Neutral Special:

Side Special:

Down Special:

Forward Roll:

Backwards Roll:

Spotdodge:

Airdodge:

Getup Attack

Ledge Attack:

Short Hop:

Full Jump:

Double Jump:

Shield:

Advanced Techniques:

Recorded Matches:

Peach
Positional Situations:
You are behind them:

You are in front of them:

They are on the ledge:

You are on the ledge:

You are above them:

You are below them:

They are recovering:

You are recovering:

Neutral:
Moveset:

Jab:

Dash Attack:

Forward Tilt:

Down Tilt:

Up Tilt:

Up Smash:

Down Smash:

Forward Smash:

Neutral Aerial:

Forward Aerial:

Down Aerial:

Back Aerial:

Up Aerial:

Neutral Special:

Side Special:

Down Special:

Forward Roll:

Backwards Roll:

Spotdodge:

Airdodge:

Getup Attack

Ledge Attack:

Short Hop:

Full Jump:

Double Jump:

Shield:

Advanced Techniques:

Recorded Matches:

Toon Link
Positional Situations:
You are behind them:

You are in front of them:

They are on the ledge:

You are on the ledge:

You are above them:

You are below them:

They are recovering:

You are recovering:

Neutral:
Moveset:

Jab:

Dash Attack:

Forward Tilt:

Down Tilt:

Up Tilt:

Up Smash:

Down Smash:

Forward Smash:

Neutral Aerial:

Forward Aerial:

Down Aerial:

Back Aerial:

Up Aerial:

Neutral Special:

Side Special:

Down Special:

Forward Roll:

Backwards Roll:

Spotdodge:

Airdodge:

Getup Attack

Ledge Attack:

Short Hop:

Full Jump:

Double Jump:

Shield:

Advanced Techniques:

Recorded Matches:

Lucario
Positional Situations:
You are behind them:

You are in front of them:

They are on the ledge:

You are on the ledge:

You are above them:

You are below them:

They are recovering:

You are recovering:

Neutral:
Moveset:

Jab:

Dash Attack:

Forward Tilt:

Down Tilt:

Up Tilt:

Up Smash:

Down Smash:

Forward Smash:

Neutral Aerial:

Forward Aerial:

Down Aerial:

Back Aerial:

Up Aerial:

Neutral Special:

Side Special:

Down Special:

Forward Roll:

Backwards Roll:

Spotdodge:

Airdodge:

Getup Attack

Ledge Attack:

Short Hop:

Full Jump:

Double Jump:

Shield:

Advanced Techniques:

Recorded Matches:

Ice Climbers
Positional Situations:
You are behind them:

You are in front of them:

They are on the ledge:

You are on the ledge:

You are above them:

You are below them:

They are recovering:

You are recovering:

Neutral:
Moveset:

Jab:

Dash Attack:

Forward Tilt:

Down Tilt:

Up Tilt:

Up Smash:

Down Smash:

Forward Smash:

Neutral Aerial:

Forward Aerial:

Down Aerial:

Back Aerial:

Up Aerial:

Neutral Special:

Side Special:

Down Special:

Forward Roll:

Backwards Roll:

Spotdodge:

Airdodge:

Getup Attack

Ledge Attack:

Short Hop:

Full Jump:

Double Jump:

Shield:

Advanced Techniques:

Recorded Matches:

Zelda
Positional Situations:
You are behind them:

You are in front of them:

They are on the ledge:

You are on the ledge:

You are above them:

You are below them:

They are recovering:

You are recovering:

Neutral:
Moveset:

Jab:

Dash Attack:

Forward Tilt:

Down Tilt:

Up Tilt:

Up Smash:

Down Smash:

Forward Smash:

Neutral Aerial:

Forward Aerial:

Down Aerial:

Back Aerial:

Up Aerial:

Neutral Special:

Side Special:

Down Special:

Forward Roll:

Backwards Roll:

Spotdodge:

Airdodge:

Getup Attack

Ledge Attack:

Short Hop:

Full Jump:

Double Jump:

Shield:

Advanced Techniques:

Recorded Matches:

:shiek: Sheik
Positional Situations:
You are behind them:

You are in front of them:

They are on the ledge:

You are on the ledge:

You are above them:

You are below them:

They are recovering:

You are recovering:

Neutral:
Moveset:

Jab:

Dash Attack:

Forward Tilt:

Down Tilt:

Up Tilt:

Up Smash:

Down Smash:

Forward Smash:

Neutral Aerial:

Forward Aerial:

Down Aerial:

Back Aerial:

Up Aerial:

Neutral Special:

Side Special:

Down Special:

Forward Roll:

Backwards Roll:

Spotdodge:

Airdodge:

Getup Attack

Ledge Attack:

Short Hop:

Full Jump:

Double Jump:

Shield:

Advanced Techniques:

Recorded Matches:

Zero Suit Samus
Positional Situations:
You are behind them:

You are in front of them:

They are on the ledge:

You are on the ledge:

You are above them:

You are below them:

They are recovering:

You are recovering:

Neutral:
Moveset:

Jab:

Dash Attack:

Forward Tilt:

Down Tilt:

Up Tilt:

Up Smash:

Down Smash:

Forward Smash:

Neutral Aerial:

Forward Aerial:

Down Aerial:

Back Aerial:

Up Aerial:

Neutral Special:

Side Special:

Down Special:

Forward Roll:

Backwards Roll:

Spotdodge:

Airdodge:

Getup Attack

Ledge Attack:

Short Hop:

Full Jump:

Double Jump:

Shield:

Advanced Techniques:

Recorded Matches:

Kirby
Positional Situations:
You are behind them:

You are in front of them:

They are on the ledge:

You are on the ledge:

You are above them:

You are below them:

They are recovering:

You are recovering:

Neutral:
Moveset:

Jab:

Dash Attack:

Forward Tilt:

Down Tilt:

Up Tilt:

Up Smash:

Down Smash:

Forward Smash:

Neutral Aerial:

Forward Aerial:

Down Aerial:

Back Aerial:

Up Aerial:

Neutral Special:

Side Special:

Down Special:

Forward Roll:

Backwards Roll:

Spotdodge:

Airdodge:

Getup Attack

Ledge Attack:

Short Hop:

Full Jump:

Double Jump:

Shield:

Advanced Techniques:

Recorded Matches:

Ike
Positional Situations:
You are behind them:

You are in front of them:

They are on the ledge:

You are on the ledge:

You are above them:

You are below them:

They are recovering:

You are recovering:

Neutral:
Moveset:

Jab:

Dash Attack:

Forward Tilt:

Down Tilt:

Up Tilt:

Up Smash:

Down Smash:

Forward Smash:

Neutral Aerial:

Forward Aerial:

Down Aerial:

Back Aerial:

Up Aerial:

Neutral Special:

Side Special:

Down Special:

Forward Roll:

Backwards Roll:

Spotdodge:

Airdodge:

Getup Attack

Ledge Attack:

Short Hop:

Full Jump:

Double Jump:

Shield:

Advanced Techniques:

Recorded Matches:

Olimar
Positional Situations:
You are behind them:

You are in front of them:

They are on the ledge:

You are on the ledge:

You are above them:

You are below them:

They are recovering:

You are recovering:

Neutral:
Moveset:

Jab:

Dash Attack:

Forward Tilt:

Down Tilt:

Up Tilt:

Up Smash:

Down Smash:

Forward Smash:

Neutral Aerial:

Forward Aerial:

Down Aerial:

Back Aerial:

Up Aerial:

Neutral Special:

Side Special:

Down Special:

Forward Roll:

Backwards Roll:

Spotdodge:

Airdodge:

Getup Attack

Ledge Attack:

Short Hop:

Full Jump:

Double Jump:

Shield:

Advanced Techniques:

Recorded Matches:

Link
Positional Situations:
You are behind them:

You are in front of them:

They are on the ledge:

You are on the ledge:

You are above them:

You are below them:

They are recovering:

You are recovering:

Neutral:
Moveset:

Jab:

Dash Attack:

Forward Tilt:

Down Tilt:

Up Tilt:

Up Smash:

Down Smash:

Forward Smash:

Neutral Aerial:

Forward Aerial:

Down Aerial:

Back Aerial:

Up Aerial:

Neutral Special:

Side Special:

Down Special:

Forward Roll:

Backwards Roll:

Spotdodge:

Airdodge:

Getup Attack

Ledge Attack:

Short Hop:

Full Jump:

Double Jump:

Shield:

Advanced Techniques:

Recorded Matches:

Pit
Positional Situations:
You are behind them:

You are in front of them:

They are on the ledge:

You are on the ledge:

You are above them:

You are below them:

They are recovering:

You are recovering:

Neutral:
Moveset:

Jab:

Dash Attack:

Forward Tilt:

Down Tilt:

Up Tilt:

Up Smash:

Down Smash:

Forward Smash:

Neutral Aerial:

Forward Aerial:

Down Aerial:

Back Aerial:

Up Aerial:

Neutral Special:

Side Special:

Down Special:

Forward Roll:

Backwards Roll:

Spotdodge:

Airdodge:

Getup Attack

Ledge Attack:

Short Hop:

Full Jump:

Double Jump:

Shield:

Advanced Techniques:

Recorded Matches:

Fox
Positional Situations:
You are behind them:

You are in front of them:

They are on the ledge:

You are on the ledge:

You are above them:

You are below them:

They are recovering:

You are recovering:

Neutral:
Moveset:

Jab:

Dash Attack:

Forward Tilt:

Down Tilt:

Up Tilt:

Up Smash:

Down Smash:

Forward Smash:

Neutral Aerial:

Forward Aerial:

Down Aerial:

Back Aerial:

Up Aerial:

Neutral Special:

Side Special:

Down Special:

Forward Roll:

Backwards Roll:

Spotdodge:

Airdodge:

Getup Attack

Ledge Attack:

Short Hop:

Full Jump:

Double Jump:

Shield:

Advanced Techniques:

Recorded Matches:

Wario
Positional Situations:
You are behind them:

You are in front of them:

They are on the ledge:

You are on the ledge:

You are above them:

You are below them:

They are recovering:

You are recovering:

Neutral:
Moveset:

Jab:

Dash Attack:

Forward Tilt:

Down Tilt:

Up Tilt:

Up Smash:

Down Smash:

Forward Smash:

Neutral Aerial:

Forward Aerial:

Down Aerial:

Back Aerial:

Up Aerial:

Neutral Special:

Side Special:

Down Special:

Forward Roll:

Backwards Roll:

Spotdodge:

Airdodge:

Getup Attack

Ledge Attack:

Short Hop:

Full Jump:

Double Jump:

Shield:

Advanced Techniques:

Recorded Matches:

Pikachu
Positional Situations:
You are behind them:

You are in front of them:

They are on the ledge:

You are on the ledge:

You are above them:

You are below them:

They are recovering:

You are recovering:

Neutral:
Moveset:

Jab:

Dash Attack:

Forward Tilt:

Down Tilt:

Up Tilt:

Up Smash:

Down Smash:

Forward Smash:

Neutral Aerial:

Forward Aerial:

Down Aerial:

Back Aerial:

Up Aerial:

Neutral Special:

Side Special:

Down Special:

Forward Roll:

Backwards Roll:

Spotdodge:

Airdodge:

Getup Attack

Ledge Attack:

Short Hop:

Full Jump:

Double Jump:

Shield:

Advanced Techniques:

Recorded Matches:

Yoshi
Positional Situations:
You are behind them:

You are in front of them:

They are on the ledge:

You are on the ledge:

You are above them:

You are below them:

They are recovering:

You are recovering:

Neutral:
Moveset:

Jab:

Dash Attack:

Forward Tilt:

Down Tilt:

Up Tilt:

Up Smash:

Down Smash:

Forward Smash:

Neutral Aerial:

Forward Aerial:

Down Aerial:

Back Aerial:

Up Aerial:

Neutral Special:

Side Special:

Down Special:

Forward Roll:

Backwards Roll:

Spotdodge:

Airdodge:

Getup Attack

Ledge Attack:

Short Hop:

Full Jump:

Double Jump:

Shield:

Advanced Techniques:

Recorded Matches:

Sonic
Positional Situations:
You are behind them:

You are in front of them:

They are on the ledge:

You are on the ledge:

You are above them:

You are below them:

They are recovering:

You are recovering:

Neutral:
Moveset:

Jab:

Dash Attack:

Forward Tilt:

Down Tilt:

Up Tilt:

Up Smash:

Down Smash:

Forward Smash:

Neutral Aerial:

Forward Aerial:

Down Aerial:

Back Aerial:

Up Aerial:

Neutral Special:

Side Special:

Down Special:

Forward Roll:

Backwards Roll:

Spotdodge:

Airdodge:

Getup Attack

Ledge Attack:

Short Hop:

Full Jump:

Double Jump:

Shield:

Advanced Techniques:

Recorded Matches:

Samus
Positional Situations:
You are behind them:

You are in front of them:

They are on the ledge:

You are on the ledge:

You are above them:

You are below them:

They are recovering:

You are recovering:

Neutral:
Moveset:

Jab:

Dash Attack:

Forward Tilt:

Down Tilt:

Up Tilt:

Up Smash:

Down Smash:

Forward Smash:

Neutral Aerial:

Forward Aerial:

Down Aerial:

Back Aerial:

Up Aerial:

Neutral Special:

Side Special:

Down Special:

Forward Roll:

Backwards Roll:

Spotdodge:

Airdodge:

Getup Attack

Ledge Attack:

Short Hop:

Full Jump:

Double Jump:

Shield:

Advanced Techniques:

Recorded Matches:

Mario
Positional Situations:
You are behind them:

You are in front of them:

They are on the ledge:

You are on the ledge:

You are above them:

You are below them:

They are recovering:

You are recovering:

Neutral:
Moveset:

Jab:

Dash Attack:

Forward Tilt:

Down Tilt:

Up Tilt:

Up Smash:

Down Smash:

Forward Smash:

Neutral Aerial:

Forward Aerial:

Down Aerial:

Back Aerial:

Up Aerial:

Neutral Special:

Side Special:

Down Special:

Forward Roll:

Backwards Roll:

Spotdodge:

Airdodge:

Getup Attack

Ledge Attack:

Short Hop:

Full Jump:

Double Jump:

Shield:

Advanced Techniques:

Recorded Matches:

Pokemon Trainer
Charizard:
Positional Situations:
You are behind them:

You are in front of them:

They are on the ledge:

You are on the ledge:

You are above them:

You are below them:

They are recovering:

You are recovering:

Neutral:
Moveset:

Jab:

Dash Attack:

Forward Tilt:

Down Tilt:

Up Tilt:

Up Smash:

Down Smash:

Forward Smash:

Neutral Aerial:

Forward Aerial:

Down Aerial:

Back Aerial:

Up Aerial:

Neutral Special:

Side Special:

Down Special:

Forward Roll:

Backwards Roll:

Spotdodge:

Airdodge:

Getup Attack

Ledge Attack:

Short Hop:

Full Jump:

Double Jump:

Shield:

Advanced Techniques:

Recorded Matches:
Squirtle:
Positional Situations:
You are behind them:

You are in front of them:

They are on the ledge:

You are on the ledge:

You are above them:

You are below them:

They are recovering:

You are recovering:

Neutral:
Moveset:

Jab:

Dash Attack:

Forward Tilt:

Down Tilt:

Up Tilt:

Up Smash:

Down Smash:

Forward Smash:

Neutral Aerial:

Forward Aerial:

Down Aerial:

Back Aerial:

Up Aerial:

Neutral Special:

Side Special:

Down Special:

Forward Roll:

Backwards Roll:

Spotdodge:

Airdodge:

Getup Attack

Ledge Attack:

Short Hop:

Full Jump:

Double Jump:

Shield:

Advanced Techniques:

Recorded Matches:
Ivysaur:
Positional Situations:
You are behind them:

You are in front of them:

They are on the ledge:

You are on the ledge:

You are above them:

You are below them:

They are recovering:

You are recovering:

Neutral:
Moveset:

Jab:

Dash Attack:

Forward Tilt:

Down Tilt:

Up Tilt:

Up Smash:

Down Smash:

Forward Smash:

Neutral Aerial:

Forward Aerial:

Down Aerial:

Back Aerial:

Up Aerial:

Neutral Special:

Side Special:

Down Special:

Forward Roll:

Backwards Roll:

Spotdodge:

Airdodge:

Getup Attack

Ledge Attack:

Short Hop:

Full Jump:

Double Jump:

Shield:

Advanced Techniques:

Recorded Matches:

Lucas
Positional Situations:
You are behind them:

You are in front of them:

They are on the ledge:

You are on the ledge:

You are above them:

You are below them:

They are recovering:

You are recovering:

Neutral:
Moveset:

Jab:

Dash Attack:

Forward Tilt:

Down Tilt:

Up Tilt:

Up Smash:

Down Smash:

Forward Smash:

Neutral Aerial:

Forward Aerial:

Down Aerial:

Back Aerial:

Up Aerial:

Neutral Special:

Side Special:

Down Special:

Forward Roll:

Backwards Roll:

Spotdodge:

Airdodge:

Getup Attack

Ledge Attack:

Short Hop:

Full Jump:

Double Jump:

Shield:

Advanced Techniques:

Recorded Matches:

Luigi
Positional Situations:
You are behind them:

You are in front of them:

They are on the ledge:

You are on the ledge:

You are above them:

You are below them:

They are recovering:

You are recovering:

Neutral:
Moveset:

Jab:

Dash Attack:

Forward Tilt:

Down Tilt:

Up Tilt:

Up Smash:

Down Smash:

Forward Smash:

Neutral Aerial:

Forward Aerial:

Down Aerial:

Back Aerial:

Up Aerial:

Neutral Special:

Side Special:

Down Special:

Forward Roll:

Backwards Roll:

Spotdodge:

Airdodge:

Getup Attack

Ledge Attack:

Short Hop:

Full Jump:

Double Jump:

Shield:

Advanced Techniques:

Recorded Matches:

Jigglypuff
Positional Situations:
You are behind them:

You are in front of them:

They are on the ledge:

You are on the ledge:

You are above them:

You are below them:

They are recovering:

You are recovering:

Neutral:
Moveset:

Jab:

Dash Attack:

Forward Tilt:

Down Tilt:

Up Tilt:

Up Smash:

Down Smash:

Forward Smash:

Neutral Aerial:

Forward Aerial:

Down Aerial:

Back Aerial:

Up Aerial:

Neutral Special:

Side Special:

Down Special:

Forward Roll:

Backwards Roll:

Spotdodge:

Airdodge:

Getup Attack

Ledge Attack:

Short Hop:

Full Jump:

Double Jump:

Shield:

Advanced Techniques:

Recorded Matches:

Ness
Positional Situations:
You are behind them:

You are in front of them:

They are on the ledge:

You are on the ledge:

You are above them:

You are below them:

They are recovering:

You are recovering:

Neutral:
Moveset:

Jab:

Dash Attack:

Forward Tilt:

Down Tilt:

Up Tilt:

Up Smash:

Down Smash:

Forward Smash:

Neutral Aerial:

Forward Aerial:

Down Aerial:

Back Aerial:

Up Aerial:

Neutral Special:

Side Special:

Down Special:

Forward Roll:

Backwards Roll:

Spotdodge:

Airdodge:

Getup Attack

Ledge Attack:

Short Hop:

Full Jump:

Double Jump:

Shield:

Advanced Techniques:

Recorded Matches:

Captain Falcon
Positional Situations:
You are behind them:

You are in front of them:

They are on the ledge:

You are on the ledge:

You are above them:

You are below them:

They are recovering:

You are recovering:

Neutral:
Moveset:

Jab:

Dash Attack:

Forward Tilt:

Down Tilt:

Up Tilt:

Up Smash:

Down Smash:

Forward Smash:

Neutral Aerial:

Forward Aerial:

Down Aerial:

Back Aerial:

Up Aerial:

Neutral Special:

Side Special:

Down Special:

Forward Roll:

Backwards Roll:

Spotdodge:

Airdodge:

Getup Attack

Ledge Attack:

Short Hop:

Full Jump:

Double Jump:

Shield:

Advanced Techniques:

Recorded Matches:

Ganondorf
Positional Situations:
You are behind them:

You are in front of them:

They are on the ledge:

You are on the ledge:

You are above them:

You are below them:

They are recovering:

You are recovering:

Neutral:
Moveset:

Jab:

Dash Attack:

Forward Tilt:

Down Tilt:

Up Tilt:

Up Smash:

Down Smash:

Forward Smash:

Neutral Aerial:

Forward Aerial:

Down Aerial:

Back Aerial:

Up Aerial:

Neutral Special:

Side Special:

Down Special:

Forward Roll:

Backwards Roll:

Spotdodge:

Airdodge:

Getup Attack

Ledge Attack:

Short Hop:

Full Jump:

Double Jump:

Shield:

Advanced Techniques:

Recorded Matches:

 

[Hence]

Saved Post One.

 

[Hence]

Saved Post Two.

Hopefully three pages is enough. Trust me, this project is going to be huge. I'll be making extensive updates everyday as well as taking information and insight from everyone else.

 

[noradseven]

What the hell that is how I play, depending upon damage, I organize them in the following ways.

At low damage:
1) Moves the opponent is most likely to do.
2) Moves most likely to put me in a bad position
3) Moves most likely to do a ****ton of damage.
4) Moves that would be very nice if the opponent did them.

At high damages:
1) Moves most likely to kill me.
2) Moves most likely to put me in a bad position.
3) Moves the opponent is most likely to do.
4) Moves that would be very nice if the opponent did them.

If I can't do **** about what they are doing such as them running away, then I deal with it when I see it.

Also you forgot nado, nado followed by shuttle loop or visa versa depending on damage should always be on the top of your mind when fighting MK, ALWAYS.

So which character do you want to do first, this is like all I think about when I think about brawl, so Im p. prepared.

 

[Hence]

MT = Mach Tornado, it is listed.

This is the fun part, you decide where and when to contribute to this thread. You may list any ammount of information about any character and it will be used until disproved or found obsolete.

 

[Nefarious B]

Good thread idea.

Because I play my brother's olimar a lot, I can start off with that one.

Things that stand out to me as very matchups specific:

-if olimar likes to spotdodge, spamming side b is very effective because it hits pikmin, making the hitbox last longer, though the dodge. This should be considered a double edged sword though, because if you hit a random pikmin not close enough to transfer the hit to olimar, the hit lags you extra and creates extra time for punishment.

-neutral b is diminished a lot in effectiveness in this matchup since the pikmin toss blocks it

-if you are too predictable with SHing, either for SH approach aerials or even retreating side b inproperly spaced, Olimar can run underneath you and usmash you.

-nair1, autocanceled, to jabx2, to f roll is very good because the jabs are safe on block but olimar will look to shieldgrab after the third. This leaves him open for lots of stuff, you might even have time to dsmash.

-you cannot just spam jabs on Olimars shield. I'm not sure how that rumor got started that he can't shieldgrab between two consecutive jab strings, but he definitely can, so don't hit his shield with the third

-look for openings with your ranged attacks, and go for dash to utilt. Utilt is your best friend in this matchup as Olimar has a very hard time getting back on the stage if you're smart about it.

that situation looks like this:
He can either airdodge, whistle, dair, or neutral air.

This is where you can learn a lot from the olimar's playstyle. Are they generally aggressive or defensive, because olimar can be played well both ways.

If they're aggressive, they will more than likely try to challenge any followup with an aerial, especially if they are unfamiliar with the matchup. Our uair beats their dair every time, and I'm pretty sure it beats their nair. However, the smarter opponents will always use their defensive options until you beat them at that, even if they are aggressive olimars. This is where you need to read your opponent to get a feel for how they will react.

If they're defensive, 9 times out of 10 they will either wistle or airdodge, with wistle to airdodge being the best option as it gives you very little time to punish. However, a neat trick is that you hear things faster than you see them, realize that by the time you've heard the whistle you should uair and you will avoid the SA frames while punishing the lag between it.

Getting threateningly close to them and then fastfalling waiting for a reaction is also an option for us that i haven't experimented with enough.

 

[Hence]

Thank you very much for the information, Nefarious B. When I determine the format for posting I'll be sure your information goes in the Olimar section pronto.

I'll be listing ledge options and highlighting the most frequently used in sitauations soon as well. I'm an expert on ledge game for all characters because it's one of the few things in this game that is linear to me.

 

[noradseven]

In addition to what you said, Olimars grab and d-smash should almost always possibles, because well they are **** good.

 

[Hence]

Updated!

With the new format we're open for business.

Edit: I know I left out pummels, grabs, and throws for moveset, but I'll edit them when the time comes. (i.e: Olimar after I'm done with homework)

 

[ThreeSided]

Dear god, this will take forever. But it's also a freakin' awesome idea.

I'll input tomorrow. I'm tired now, and need to get up early.

 

[Sesshomuronay]

Wow that sure looks big.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Wow, if we see this the whole way through it'll be awesome!

 

[ThreeSided]

So are we going to start with a specific situation to discuss? Or do we just input at random?

 

[sasook]

Input at random.


Also - O_O

Wow....props to the ZSS boards if we can get this filled out. I'm not even sure where to start.

 

[noradseven]

Ill start right at the top.

MK, you are behind him.

his option/ your counter

run away/ ....
d-smash/block-punish,jab,d-tilt,u-tilt,grab
nado/block-punish,jab,grab
pivot up B/ block-punish
pivot grab/ jab, d-tilt
jump b-air/ jab, u-tilt (this and nado are probably his best options.)
jump n-air/block-punish, whiff-punish
block/grab, d-tilt

so grab, block-punish, jab, are probably your best options.

 

[ThreeSided]

I don't think that this should just be done with little bits of input. I feel like it would be much more accurate and comprehensive if we focus on one situation at a time. It could even be like a normal match up discussion: We bring up a situation, discuss it for however long it takes, invite players from that players boards to comment, and come to a solid conclusion. We could even have a match up ratio for it! "This situation is 30:70 in ZSS's favor, because she can easily gimp olimar offstage blahblah."

It would take a lot longer, but I feel that doing this all haphazard like will result in a lot of contradicting and unclear advice, without any outright comparison or clear decisive options.

 

[Hence]

Start with MK, then.

I created this system so that anyone can imput information at any time. Mostly because of various other mains. Think about it, maybe you went to a tournament and got taken out by a character who was virtually unknown to you. Bring it up here and we can have in-depth discussion when it's convienient for you.

 

[sasook]

I kind of like Hence's original system better, actually. Often times you find out something about a matchup but don't mention it because it's not that character yet. By the time the matchup discussion for that character takes place, you've forgotten it.

 

[Hence]

Any information that has been submitted already or will be submitted by Wednesday will be updated on Thursday. I'll add a bunch of information myself but I have to do a few things before then.

 

[Nefarious B]

The way I see this thread, it should be all the stupid/minute things that you would only know from lot's of experience in a matchup. You've experienced everything, so you can give advice to those who know the general info but lack the experience.

That's the way I will try and input atleast.

For example, since threesided posted in another thread he had trouble with a Snake once the snake adapted, here is my take on chaingrabbing him.

Lets assume you've already got him grabbed.

If he dropped a nade to cover his ***, you can wait it out, depending on if he is high percent or not, and if he is mashing out or not.

If he is at low percent, mashing out, or both, you can wait long enough for and predict the nade explosion, throwing snake into it. Prepare to chase with uairs, or attempt a regrab as Snake lands. Playing as Snake, even casually, can give you a good internal timer for nades and C4 btw.

You can also just dthrow him and look for a landing regrab. As long as you watch out for his bair he has no good return options and you should be able to regrab him through his landing lag and continue the grab. Of course if you dthrow you can also attempt a uair juggle, though he will expect this most likely.

 

[noradseven]

The way I see this thread, it should be all the stupid/minute things that you would only know from lot's of experience in a matchup. You've experienced everything, so you can give advice to those who know the general info but lack the experience.

That's the way I will try and input atleast.

For example, since threesided posted in another thread he had trouble with a Snake once the snake adapted, here is my take on chaingrabbing him.

Lets assume you've already got him grabbed.

If he dropped a nade to cover his ***, you can wait it out, depending on if he is high percent or not, and if he is mashing out or not.

If he is at low percent, mashing out, or both, you can wait long enough for and predict the nade explosion, throwing snake into it. Prepare to chase with uairs, or attempt a regrab as Snake lands. Playing as Snake, even casually, can give you a good internal timer for nades and C4 btw.

You can also just dthrow him and look for a landing regrab. As long as you watch out for his bair he has no good return options and you should be able to regrab him through his landing lag and continue the grab. Of course if you dthrow you can also attempt a uair juggle, though he will expect this most likely.

Grenades are far more important, just remember that for like 10-15 seconds mines are completely safe.

 

[Nefarious B]

Grenades are far more important, just remember that for like 10-15 seconds mines are completely safe.

You quoted the entire wall of text how am I supposed to know what you responded to

 

[Hence]

//Disregard this post.

 

[Charby]

Ness/Lucas, Ground release combos
Wario, Infinite
Rob, Infinite
GW, JAB WORKS (lulz)
Tall Characters, Buffer Killing fair and buffer bair hit them
Olimar, gimp him with armor piece
Fox Dsmash chain
Sheik, 4xDsmash
Falco, semi Dsmash chain
Snake, Chain grab
MK, air release chain

 

[noradseven]

Remember, MK can also pivot grab.

Errr ummm, I said that.

 

[Hence]

Errr ummm, I said that.

It was late...I was tired...reading johns.

 

[Nefarious B]

GW, JAB WORKS (lulz)
Sheik, 4xDsmash

What are these two?

 

[Charby]

third hit of jab cant be shielded, Sheik dsmash chain, 0% double 2xdsmash

 

[noradseven]

third hit of jab cant be shielded, Sheik dsmash chain, 0% double 2xdsmash

Yeah works with jiggs as well if it and thank god for that.

The sheik d-smash chain is kinda unlikely its not like the one on fox.

 

[Hence]

Let's talk about Yoshi, god I hate that matchup.

 

[Charby]

Jump on his head to edgue guard

 

[noradseven]

Jump on his head to edgue guard

I think he meant a good yoshi, I hate yoshi fights for the same reason I hate jiggs, he is faster than me in the air, blargalsmargl.

 

[Hence]

Updates are coming tomorrow, be ready to get this thing underway!

 

[~ARES]

Prepare yourself.

Moar Snake please!

 

[Hence]

Alright guys, if someone could work on neutral states I would greatly appreciate it.

It's the only thing I can't do alone.

 

[Nefarious B]

The problem I see with this Hence, is that no matter how much you break down a matchup you won't actually understand it until you practice it. It will probly be a better use of everyone's time too, since you retain muscle memory and know instinctively not just mentally.

It's like the guy from the Sheik boards who had a rediculously complex combo guide, where if you had ftilt decayed x4 you could do this, but if it was x3 you do something different instead. The problem with both ideas is that no one will remember any of it mid match, and really you shouldn't have to. If you know your character well, practice is what is going to make you better, not memorizing how to deal with every single situation like you want to do here.

What you could do instead is like how I gave my input on it. People list weird things specific to this one matchup that you wouldn't realize until you've played it a lot.

IMO, make a list of the most prevalent/troubling situations and discuss those. For example: What do you do when you're above MK? When he's approaching with fairs? Discuss matchup strategies. But then this kinda just becomes a normal matchup thread eh?

 

[Nefarious B]

Double post, but yeah this is totally different from the above so I felt it needed a separate post:

More on the Olimar matchup:

-If you do a SH bair, in the last few moments that you can still preform the bair it will be around head level with Olimar. You need to learn how to time this, aim at his face. Why? Because if his shield is diminished at all it pokes more often than not. This is my main method of killing him, because usually Olimar will become very defensive when he gets to around 100% because he knows we have a hard time killing very defensive, shield happy opponents. (Charby's buffered SH double bair puts us at the perfect level for this to hit, and if you can hit both on his shield the second is pretty much guaranteed to poke)

-Olimar's pickmin toss is a very good move. He will SH toss not only to build damage, but to distract you and look for openings to get in and **** you.

The pikmin colors are important especially during the toss:

Whites: the most deadly, these do something like 32 damage undiminished. ********. Luckily, you know the moment you've been hit with one because it has a very distinct sound (sounds more like getting hit with Ike's sword than the others). If you get stuck with one of these, get that **** off immediately. Whites also fly much further when thrown, they have almost a straight trajectory while the others are more of a lob.

Purples: These are annoying because instead of grabbing onto you they knock you back and on your butt. They don't do as much damage however, so while they are disruptive to your approaches they are not that bad. They're also fat and slow, thus easy to see coming and dodge, but just be wary because a good olimar will look for this dodge and go in to punish the ending lag.

The others (yellow/red/blue) aren't much to worry about, they deal some damage so obviously you want them off. Which leads me to:

Getting them off:
Don't get baited into using a utilt or something to try and get them off, be smart and jab as they're being tossed or uair them while always watching olimar to see if he tries to take advantage. If olimar is just spamming the toss I like to dash up to him and DA him (follow up with a sexy utilt) because it does a good job of getting the pikmin off but doesn't allow him to punish you much for it.

Especially if you see Olimar getting too aggressive with the toss and if he runs out of pikmin next to him, charge him and take advantage as he will have to run or shield and wait for his pikmin to come back.

Also, your kill moves should never be stale against Olimar. Use his pikmin toss against him and stale your moves that you can afford to have stale (jab, uair because it makes him really easy to juggle), and you should always have bair or side b good for a kill when the time comes.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Jump on his head to edgue guard

Good Yoshi players will airdodge immediately after their second jump to protect themselves.

 

[sasook]

Whites: the most deadly, these do something like 32 damage undiminished. ********. Luckily, you know the moment you've been hit with one because it has a very distinct sound (sounds more like getting hit with Ike's sword than the others). If you get stuck with one of these, get that **** off immediately. Whites also fly much further when thrown, they have almost a straight trajectory while the others are more of a lob.

Purples: These are annoying because instead of grabbing onto you they knock you back and on your butt. They don't do as much damage however, so while they are disruptive to your approaches they are not that bad. They're also fat and slow, thus easy to see coming and dodge, but just be wary because a good olimar will look for this dodge and go in to punish the ending lag.

Wait a minute, are you sure you don't have these mixed up? I know for a fact that purple is the strongest, most damaging pikmin out of all of them, and I'm pretty sure white is actually the weakest (they only do a decent amount if you let them stay on you).

Don't quote me on the whites, I'm not sure, but I'm positive about the purples.

 

[FadedImage]

he means pikmin latch.

for all the aerials/smashes, purple is stronger/more damage white is ***** ****.

for pikmin latch, white will **** you if you leave it on. purples will just hit you once.



ALSO

how about a comprehensive list of what direction to DI each person's kill moves in order to survive the absolute best? Like Fox's U-Smash is -10 degrees if you see Fox as the origin and the direction HE is facing as 0 degrees.