Let the Sun Shine! Isaac for Smash Ultimate!

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Good way to hide a few surprises since there are so many other characters you'll have to go through unlocking first. It'll catch people off-guard to see, out of 50+ others, a silhouette of a character they don't remember being revealed.
Super Smash Bros. Inception!

Apparently there was an old Brawl poll conducted by Sakurai that had a bunch of different characters recommended for the roster (I updated some of the details for what we know of SSBU so far) These were the higher ranked characters in the poll. The original thread can be found in the following link where other candidates are shown including fellow Golden Sun protag Felixhttps://smashboards.com/threads/characters-on-sakurais-poll.71872/
King Dedede(5) - CONFIRMED!(SSBB)
Diddy Kong(4) - CONFIRMED!(SSBB)
Geno(4)
Ike(4) - CONFIRMED!(SSBB)
Ridley(4) - CONFIRMED (SSBU)
Captain Olimar & Pikmin(3) - CONFIRMED(SSBB)
Krystal(3) ASSIST TROPHY
Takamaru(3) ASSIST TROPHY
Windwaker Link(3)- CONFIRMED (SSBB)
Animal Crossing MC(2) - CONFIRMED (SSB4)
Claus(2)
Demiru(2)
Isaac(2)
OUR GOLDEN BOY!

Jeff(2) ASSIST TROPHY
Kawasima(2)
King K.Rool(2)
Lip(2)
Lucas(2) - CONFIRMED (SSBB)
Mega Man(2) (SSB4)
Oguma(2)
Ouendan(2)
Sukapon(2)Assist trophy

Judging by these results Isaac has been on Sakurai's radar for a playable slot and seeing how much competition from this poll has been added or deconfirmed or is straight up unlikely, I am somewhat hopeful due to the push for Isaac by Golden Sun fans with the ballot. On the other hand this is an older poll that was made 12 years ago so it may be irrelevant in the eyes of some people
For the record, Kawashima's an Assist Trophy.

I call complete bs =/...
At this rate Waluigi will be taken out too, since he's a Camelot creation. It's imperative that Isaac gets in ASAP, or he'll meet Ray's fate.
 

N3ON

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Apparently there was an old Brawl poll conducted by Sakurai that had a bunch of different characters recommended for the roster (I updated some of the details for what we know of SSBU so far) These were the higher ranked characters in the poll. The original thread can be found in the following link where other candidates are shown including fellow Golden Sun protag Felixhttps://smashboards.com/threads/characters-on-sakurais-poll.71872/
King Dedede(5) - CONFIRMED!(SSBB)
Diddy Kong(4) - CONFIRMED!(SSBB)
Geno(4)
Ike(4) - CONFIRMED!(SSBB)
Ridley(4) - CONFIRMED (SSBU)
Captain Olimar & Pikmin(3) - CONFIRMED(SSBB)
Krystal(3) ASSIST TROPHY
Takamaru(3) ASSIST TROPHY
Windwaker Link(3)- CONFIRMED (SSBB)
Animal Crossing MC(2) - CONFIRMED (SSB4)
Claus(2)
Demiru(2)
Isaac(2)
OUR GOLDEN BOY!

Jeff(2) ASSIST TROPHY
Kawasima(2)
King K.Rool(2)
Lip(2)
Lucas(2) - CONFIRMED (SSBB)
Mega Man(2) (SSB4)
Oguma(2)
Ouendan(2)
Sukapon(2)Assist trophy

Judging by these results Isaac has been on Sakurai's radar for a playable slot and seeing how much competition from this poll has been added or deconfirmed or is straight up unlikely, I am somewhat hopeful due to the push for Isaac by Golden Sun fans with the ballot. On the other hand this is an older poll that was made 12 years ago so it may be irrelevant in the eyes of some people
This isn't the Brawl poll. Thanks to the OP, people get it commonly confused as such. But no, the Brawl poll was never released to the public, all we know is that Sonic placed first and, for third-parties, Mega Man placed second.

This is a list of how many times a character was mentioned in a Brawl ballot response from Sakurai. Obviously not every submission was responded to, and so this list isn't a reliable barometer.

Though I suppose if nothing else, it does reinforce that Sakurai is/was plenty aware of Isaac.

I sort of feel the same way as this. I think Sakurai will just do what he usually does. Picks expected/popular requested characters and mix those in with characters that aren't as expected. Some of these newcomers will likely be a product of the ballot or just large fan demand in general.
Well, I do think the ballot will have some definite sway on the roster, I just don't think they're publicly going to credit the ballot for many, if any, inclusions. However, yeah, even if the ballot is the lead influence on the roster, I can't imagine Sakurai completely abstains from doing the Sakurai thing and choosing surprising unexpected picks.
 
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Sabrewulf238

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This isn't the Brawl poll. Thanks to the OP, people get it commonly confused as such. But no, the Brawl poll was never released to the public, all we know is that Sonic placed first and, for third-parties, Mega Man placed second.

This is a list of how many times a character was mentioned in a Brawl ballot response from Sakurai. Obviously not every submission was responded to, and so this list isn't a reliable barometer.


Well, I do think the ballot will have some definite sway on the roster, I just don't think they're publicly going to credit the ballot for many, if any, inclusions. However, yeah, even if the ballot is the lead influence on the roster, I can't imagine Sakurai completely abstains from doing the Sakurai thing and choosing surprising unexpected picks.
Maybe the Sakurai surprise this time around is that there is no Sakurai surprise.
 

ferioku

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Super Smash Bros. Inception!
At this rate Waluigi will be taken out too, since he's a Camelot creation. It's imperative that Isaac gets in ASAP, or he'll meet Ray's fate.
Very true, although ignoring Golden Sun for Mario Tennis and nonsense golf games that rarely anyone plays gets to me T_T...
I can literally see them making another golf game next year or the year after =/
 

LasermasterA

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I saw this in another thread: https://youtu.be/CT-DmdaLH_Q

Curse my mind the first thing I thought of was "Camelot developed Mario Tennis Aces and now they're going to have some kind of announcement with Smash Bros = Isaac in Smash"

Seriously though I'm not sure what this is supposed to be? Is this happening or is it a fake YouTube account?

Edit: Well it has over 800k subscribers so it can't be fake. It really looks like we're getting a duel Smash Bros Ultimate/Mario Tennis Aces direct/announcement on the 16th of July.
OMG! Isaac is going to be revealed as DLC for Mario Tennis Aces and announced for Smash at the SAME TIME!!!! HYPEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!

Lol, that would be amazing wouldn't it? Imagine if that actually happens. Don't worry, any news of Camelot and Smash mentioned in the same sentence would make me think of Isaac in Smash as well.

It is some tournament, yes?
 
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OMG! Isaac is going to be revealed as DLC for Mario Tennis Aces and announced for Smash at the SAME TIME!!!! HYPEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!

Lol, that would be amazing wouldn't it? Imagine if that actually happens. Don't worry, any news of Camelot and Smash mentioned in the same sentence would make me think of Isaac in Smash as well.

It is some tournament, yes?
Yes, as much as it disappointed my heart that about flew out of my chest when I saw the YouTube link, it's a dual tournament livestream. Of course, speculators will still say there's something to be announced here, but when it's Japan-only? Not likely.
 

Hydewell

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After analizing the Camelot staff, I've reached the next conclusions:

- Currently there are 47 employees in the Camelot team (or, at least, these 47 members took part in the development of the last game).

- When they did MTUS (2015) 34 employees were credited. With MSS(2017), 33 employees were listed. So, they increased the company with 13 employees to jump in the new hardware.

- Since MTUS, there are 8 employees who didn't continue in Camelot. Except one (who apparently went to Capcom and participated in Monster Hunter World), the other 7 don't appear in any new game. Obviously, they could be working in some project of another company that isn't still launched, but also they could be making a second project parallely (it's common in the industry. For example, Monolith Soft did it with Xenoblade 2 when a small team started to work parallely when they were developing Xenoblade X). Anyways, these are the people "inactive":
Game Design: Norisumi Osawa
Programming:
Yoshinori Ni****ani (The MH guy), Takumi Yamada Masayuki Meichi
Graphic Design: Teppei Kamata, Mai Sogo, Yumi Iwata, Kasumi Nakazawa

- Also, for curiosity, I compared the team that developed the last Golden Sun game (Dark Dawn) with the current staff. The 1st thing I noticed was more people were involved in the development of Golden Sun Dark Dawn (53) than the Mario Tennis Aces (47). From that team, only 28 people still continues in the team. If they wanted to do a new RPG, they would lack especially the artwork area (design characters, djinns, artwork, etc.), apart from the battle system (curiously, 3 of them are members of the "inactive" people).

- So, if they're going to do a RPG, they'll need to hire some people (like AlphaDream (the guys who do the Mario&Luigi franchises) is doing now). So, from now, it would be nice seeing if they contract more people (especifically in these areas), because if they're hiring it, that would mean they do a RPG game. Although Nintendo could lend them some employees from Monolift Soft Kyoto, which especializes in these areas.

Obviously, I didn't count the people who worked in cinematics of the last game (apparently it's another company called PolyAssets United Inc.) and people who work for Nintendo and act as supervisors or producers.
 
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NessAtc.

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Also of note is that in January 2010, before DD was released, there were 42 employees. That means after that, 11 more people at minimum got hired on to Camelot to help with DD

EDIT: The wikipedia source is kind of confusing, as it links to "Camelot2007", so it is probably not quite accurate
 
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Jak_spoon

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I know a lot of people don’t agree with me that Isaac should be the retro rep (in line with the ice climbers, pit, and little Mac) but if he isn’t who would it be. Just an FYI Pit and Little Mac were pretty heavily requested which helped them get chosen. But now we’re at this point where retros that did have support (Takamaru, Sukapon, ect) have been disconfirmed and the others have lost their supporters. Isaac is the only retro character from a unique series that still has support.

Another thing I really like about Isaac is that even people who don’t have him on their list aren’t mad at the idea of his inclusion because the general idea is that “he’d have a unique play style” unlike FE characters, Toad, Dee, and Paper Mario who people either love them or hate them.

Also on that note I’ve been getting into some fights with some Ashley supporters who have said she has such an “amazing moveset potential”. In my mind there is a tier for that. You either have infinite potential, amazing potential, good potential, or you require creativity. That’s not even factoring in weither or not those moves would translate to a unique play style. Anyways I would say that Ashley requires creativity while Isaac has infinite potential. I also think his move set could offer something unique which I think is going to be very vital in this Smash. As there won’t be a lot of new characters and they are what really change how the game is played in each installment. This is one of the reasons I think Bandana Dee is doomed to fail. Yea he has amazing moveset potential but I don’t think his moveset offers anything new to Smash play style wise.

If Isaac gets in I wonder if any of this will be a factor.
 

DjinnandTonic

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Gee. I can't imagine why you're getting into fights.

Just kidding, but you're being oddly dismissive of a lot of popular characters and making broad generalizations like 'Isaac should be the retro rep, who else could it possibly be?!'

Also this:
In my mind there is a tier for that. You either have infinite potential, amazing potential, good potential, or you require creativity.
Those are some... clunky... tier names. 'Infinite' potential?

I think I understand what you're trying to say, but I can see why others might find it abrasive.
 

N3ON

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Anyways I would say that Ashley requires creativity while Isaac has infinite potential.
I do actually agree with this, but I don't see non-obvious potential as a reason to keep any character out, it's not like Sakurai isn't adept at culling together interesting movesets with little to work with.

The tiers themselves are interesting too, but I don't think they have much bearing on chances. Just a way to categorize the volume of what a character might have to draw upon.

Isaac doesn't have infinite potential lol

He's got a lot but not infinite
I don't think any character really has 'infinite potential'; he probably doesn't mean that literally.
 

Skyblade12

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Isaac has the most potential I've seen. The sheer number of moves he can use means that you can fill his entire moveset with moves from his source game that all stay true to character, and there are very few characters who match that.

I do think that move potential has some effect on chances. Because Sakurai does seem to look for interesting move sets, and he did get rid of Chrom for just having a mediocre one.
 

Isaac: Venus Adept

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Jak_spoon

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Isaac doesn't have infinite potential lol
He's got a lot but not infinite
Haha I know that's just how I named my system. Infinite to me means from references you can make multiple movesets that are completely different from each other. Its really something that I have made up in my head that I really don't use for arguments on the board.
I do actually agree with this, but I don't see non-obvious potential as a reason to keep any character out, it's not like Sakurai isn't adept at culling together interesting movesets with little to work with.
The tiers themselves are interesting too, but I don't think they have much bearing on chances. Just a way to categorize the volume of what a character might have to draw upon.
Yes I totally agree with this. If Sakurai wants to make a moveset for a character he can easily do it. But I feel that sometimes characters that require creativity miss out on iterations of Smash because Sakurai cant figure out how they would work. for example we know that Villager and Ridley required extra time in the thinking chair because Sakurai couldn't figure out how to get them to properly portray themselves while also adding something new to Smash. This in itself isn't bad. Each game we get creative characters. What has been annoying me recently is a lot of people have these rosters where all of their characters require creativity to work. And that's not going to happen. Which is why I think its important to recognize what characters require creativity and limit your roster to include only the most important characters of that group.
Gee. I can't imagine why you're getting into fights.
Just kidding, but you're being oddly dismissive of a lot of popular characters and making broad generalizations like 'Isaac should be the retro rep, who else could it possibly be?!'
Lol I know why I'm getting into fights. I'm starting them. I wouldn't say that I'm being dismissive. while I don't post a lot I do read from the main board everyday. I have also done a lot of research. Like really I cant stress how much of my time I've wasted looking into Nintendo history, looking up ballots and trends over the years and following Sakurai's articles on Smash. When I say I don't think Ashley has a chance I really mean it and I could write you an essay about it. But anyways I didn't present my last post properly. I was genuinely asking who could fill that retro spot because I've been staring at it for the last 3 days and the only contender I can see is Excite-biker but even then people aren't really clamoring for him. I mean I know Sakurai wants to please fans. and that retro spot isn't supposed to be a surprise its generally backed by want and popularity but the selection pool has been so thinned out I don't see a lot of competition.
 

SonicLink125

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If there is one big thing that Isaac can bring into Smash that no one else has/can, it's his Earth Psynergy. There is almost no earth based attacks in Smash. You could argue Ivysaur could do earth, but Ivysaur uses plant based attacks. I sometimes feel like I'm the only one who sees this when I discuss Smash to others.

Also to add, we have no GBA/DS reps at all. Yes, Lucas did appear in Mother 3 on GBA and Lucario in Diamond/Pearl on DS, but they're still from a series that came from another system entirely. GoldenSun, however, appeared on GBA first. Well, you guys know where I'm getting at.
 

Falgor

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Isaac doesn't have infinite potential lol

He's got a lot but not infinite
Of all the characters I know, and with the -I guess- positive bias I have for Isaac, that is the thing I know I can say for sure: Isaac's the closest character from having literal infinite potential (along with the other Golden Sun characters but since Isaac's the one with the best chances, y'know). :laugh:

Edit:

If there is one big thing that Isaac can bring into Smash that no one else has/can, it's his Earth Psynergy. There is almost no earth based attacks in Smash. You could argue Ivysaur could do earth, but Ivysaur uses plant based attacks. I sometimes feel like I'm the only one who sees this when I discuss Smash to others.

Also to add, we have no GBA/DS reps at all. Yes, Lucas did appear in Mother 3 on GBA and Lucario in Diamond/Pearl on DS, but they're still from a series that came from another system entirely. GoldenSun, however, appeared on GBA first. Well, you guys know where I'm getting at.
I don't even know if Mother 3 was released in Europe and/or in America? I don't think so?
Earthbound Beginnings was eventually released worldwide because of the Wii U Virtual Console but still, Lucas is the one from the GBA game and the rest of the world never (officially) played his game. He's far from being the best GBA rep, and he's pretty much the only one. Unless I forget someone but hey, the GBA DOES lack of representation, that much is undeniable.
 
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NessAtc.

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Technically Lucas, Roy, and ZSS all rep the GBA but Roy's appeared in other FE games, ZSS is just Samus, and Lucas is Japan only.
If we're being perfectly honest, the main reason Lucas is more well known than Isaac is because people either played Earthbound before or played Smash before

As a Lucas fan, I admit that without Smash, he's probably even more obscure than Isaac is.
 
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Golden Icarus

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I was genuinely asking who could fill that retro spot because I've been staring at it for the last 3 days and the only contender I can see is Excite-biker but even then people aren't really clamoring for him. I mean I know Sakurai wants to please fans. and that retro spot isn't supposed to be a surprise its generally backed by want and popularity but the selection pool has been so thinned out I don't see a lot of competition.
You know, I really do hope that “retro character” stops meaning “NES character.” I mean most websites and stores that sell “vintage” games, literally always includes GameCube and GBA in that category. Sometimes even Wii and DS. And when you compare how old Ice Climber was during Melee and how old Golden Sun is now, it is more than fair to consider Isaac a “retro character.”

And just speaking personally, as a nineteen year old boy, I grew up playing games primarily on the GameCube and GBA (and the N64 to a lesser extent, but that was mostly my older brother’s thing) and to this day they are probably my most played home and handheld consoles, respectively. And I know for a fact that a large chunk of people who are hardcore Smash fans are around the same age as me and grew up playing the same games. For goodness sake, the people who group up with games like Melee and the original Smash, are the same people who grew up with those consoles.

NES babies have more than their fair share of representation in Smash, and while I would love to see characters like Excitebiker, Balloon Fighter, Takamaru, Muddy Mole, etc., I definitely think it would be nice to give some love to the people who grew up in some of the other “retro” eras. This is very similar to how I feel about King K. Rool and how a lot of the people who want him are the people who grew up playing DKC on the SNES, and DK64 on the N64. Just because he isn’t from the NES, and doesn’t represent his own series, doesn’t make him any less retro in my opinion.
 

NoOtherPersona

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in all honesty, Isaac and Ashley should get in because they're both popular there would be no reason to argue Ashley gets in because she's from the Wario series and Isacc because he's a brand new fighter and he's a new spell sword that has moves and elements that haven't been used by Robin.
 
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in all honesty, Isaac and Ashley should get in because they're both popular there would be no reason to argue Ashley gets in because she's from the Wario series and Isacc because he's a brand new fighter and he's a new spell sword that has moves and elements that haven't been used by Robin.
I just hope there comes a day people stop judging characters by the most superficial groupings. Like spell sword, swordsmen, or anime. I mean I could say no more cartoonish characters or no more first users but that doesn't stop most of them from being unique. I mean is it too much to ask people actually think about characters instead of stereotyping. (Just to be sure you know, I wasn't saying you were doing that just talking in general terms.)
 

DjinnandTonic

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I mean... it's hard to call Isaac the most likely 'retro' rep when most of his competition is older than him (K.Rool, Dixie, Geno, Lip, Bandana Dee, all debuted in the SNES era, which is notably pre-GBA...)

And in fact, one of the newcomers we already know about (Ridley) is from the NES era... So how exactly could GBA-era Isaac be the 'retro' one?
 

NessAtc.

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the thing is that Isaac is commonly associated with the GBA, as his game is one of the earlier system sellers. Golden Sun is also one of the first full-length handheld JRPGs that got put out. It's more than fair to consider Isaac "retro" even if he's not necessarily as old as the other characters.
 
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Falgor

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I mean... it's hard to call Isaac the most likely 'retro' rep when most of his competition is older than him (K.Rool, Dixie, Geno, Lip, Bandana Dee, all debuted in the SNES era, which is notably pre-GBA...)

And in fact, one of the newcomers we already know about (Ridley) is from the NES era... So how exactly could GBA-era Isaac be the 'retro' one?
It might seem like a weird concept but imo, I think setting the "retro" definition in stone as "the oldest [characters] possible" is very restrictive.
At some point if the character is old enough, even though some are older, it should fit as retro.
Also, the other characters that you mention are not all known for being old only: K. Rool might be older but people bring him for other reasons when it comes to Smash Bros: He's a villain, a heavyweight for example.
Dixie hardly feels like a retro character (again, imo) because she appeared and is playable in the recent DK games too. Same for Bandana Dee.


Geno and Lip though, yeah, they'd probably fit as "retro". Now Lip is much more obscure than Isaac and it really doesn't help her. Being retro is one thing but if that's the only thing a character has going for him, well that's not good... Geno's case is a bit weird since he had that costume in Smash 4 and Sakurai seems to have some sort of bias for him. Not sure of how obscure he is, but he seems like a moveset wouldn't be a problem to make for him.

the thing is that Isaac is commonly associated with the GBA, as his game is one of the earlier system sellers. Golden Sun is also one of the first full-length handheld JRPGs that got put out. It's more than fair to consider Isaac "retro" even if he's not necessarily as old as the other characters.
This. Golden Sun is one of the best games on the GBA (if not THE best in terms of associated nostalgia) and in terms of "gaming history", I think that should hold some weight.
Then again, I'm not Sakurai and I'm very critical of his way of handling Smash Bros soooo... That pretty much means nothing.
 

_Sheik

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How do you think they should represent Isaac's personality? He's either got the generic silent protagonist trope (GS1) or Felix's cold-ish demeanor that makes him seem like he's not one to **** around in the sequel(s)...
 

Falgor

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How do you think they should represent Isaac's personality? He's either got the generic silent protagonist trope (GS1) or Felix's cold-ish demeanor that makes him seem like he's not one to **** around in the sequel(s)...
Isaac shows a bit of personality in The Lost Age and Dark Dawn (that said he's also older so of course he's different) though.
They could build on that in theory.


The "silent protag" could work (I remember that in Brawl, despite a lot of cutscenes, characters had no dialogue in the Subspace Emissary).
 
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DjinnandTonic

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It might seem like a weird concept but imo, I think setting the "retro" definition in stone as "the oldest [characters] possible" is very restrictive.
At some point if the character is old enough, even though some are older, it should fit as retro.
Well sure, I guess if words have no meaning, then that works.

Though, I don't think Isaac really fits. It's not as if the style of JRPG that Golden Sun represents ever really went away... (it's even well-represented in Smash already thanks to Ness, Cloud, the FE characters, and arguably Link and the Pokemon.)

I definitely want Isaac in Smash, but I just don't see him getting 'retro' cred in this case?

Especially not when we look at what our former retro characters are like... And especially compared to characters like Geno or K.Rool or even Ridley, who are older or just as notable for being retro. Hell, someone like Celica hails from the NES -and- has a modern remake, which would seemingly put her in a better position than Isaac for something like this.

This retro thing just seems like the wrong argument for convincing anyone that Isaac belongs in Smash.
 

_Sheik

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Isaac shows a bit of personality in The Lost Age and Dark Dawn (that said he's also older so of course he's different) though.
They could build on that in theory.


The "silent protag" could work (I remember that in Brawl, despite a lot of cutscenes, characters had no dialogue in the Subspace Emissary).
That's what I said. Isaac's personality is the same as Felix's in the first game.

What I'm worried about is how they'll try to give people an idea of what Isaac is all about. No matter how many times I see them, neither Shulk's reveal trailer nor his in-game appearance in Smash teach me a whole lot about him...
 
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Well sure, I guess if words have no meaning, then that works.

Though, I don't think Isaac really fits. It's not as if the style of JRPG that Golden Sun represents ever really went away... (it's even well-represented in Smash already thanks to Ness, Cloud, the FE characters, and arguably Link and the Pokemon.)

I definitely want Isaac in Smash, but I just don't see him getting 'retro' cred in this case?

Especially not when we look at what our former retro characters are like... And especially compared to characters like Geno or K.Rool or even Ridley, who are older or just as notable for being retro. Hell, someone like Celica hails from the NES -and- has a modern remake, which would seemingly put her in a better position than Isaac for something like this.

This retro thing just seems like the wrong argument for convincing anyone that Isaac belongs in Smash.
Ehhh while Golden Sun is a JRPG like most of those I wouldn't say it shares a lot of similarities with them style wise. Well except for LoZ because I mean LoZ is in similar high fantasy type style. The rest though would be stretch. I mean even FE would seem close but it's more grounded.
 

NoOtherPersona

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 25, 2018
Messages
104
Switch FC
SW-4922-9697-9289
I just hope there comes a day people stop judging characters by the most superficial groupings. Like spell sword, swordsmen, or anime. I mean I could say no more cartoonish characters or no more first users but that doesn't stop most of them from being unique. I mean is it too much to ask people actually think about characters instead of stereotyping. (Just to be sure you know, I wasn't saying you were doing that just talking in general terms.)
Hey don't worry about for me it's all about characters who would probably be fun or stand out simon isacc lip ashley k rool bandana dee i feel they should all have a shot my only fears is that for some strange reason Camelot wants waluigi to be in smash instead of isacc
 
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