Meta Let the Battles Begin! - Cloud Matchup Thread

[Random4811]

I hate when i don't get notifications for stuff lol.
I'm not sure what you're saying here. Dtilt under slingshot will lead into uair often, and put you in a state where we can read your airdodge/catch your landing with DA/pivot fsmash

But that's not what I'm here for. You're saying you can punish Cloud's Limit moves with bowling ball? Not really. LB Cross Slash is interruptable pretty much right after the hitbox cedes. A Limit Climhazzard on your shield will let us drift away and even let us grab ledge if we want. Even if we don't, you'll have to run to catch us and the best punish you'll get is a running usmash. Finishing Touch should only be used on a kill confirm or a hard airdodge/roll read.

As for the Shiek MU, I really don't know. Sure we can get Limit for free if she doesn't approach, but that doesn't exactly force her to approach. I'd love some impressions on our resident top tier, we should learn how to deal with her ASAP.

Right thats not to mention the fact that nair and bair literally go through and cancel villager's bair and nair, dtilt and dash attack cover literally all of villager's grounded options (or at the very least clink with them), and with limit you can recover almost however you want.

Finishing touch is actually a pretty good stall, and has more uses than I think people realize. Catching shield drop with FT is so dirty. I've been labbing with it a lot lately.
Limit side b has invulnerability from frames 6 to 15, I believe. So its pretty not easy to punish. its also like, almost a free stage spike if they go offstage.

 

[-m0]

Right thats not to mention the fact that nair and bair literally go through and cancel villager's bair and nair, dtilt and dash attack cover literally all of villager's grounded options (or at the very least clink with them), and with limit you can recover almost however you want.

Finishing touch is actually a pretty good stall, and has more uses than I think people realize. Catching shield drop with FT is so dirty. I've been labbing with it a lot lately.
Limit side b has invulnerability from frames 6 to 15, I believe. So its pretty not easy to punish. its also like, almost a free stage spike if they go offstage.

Pretty sure it's 6 to 11. I've actually had really hard time landing LB Cross Slash for a stage spike, any tips? It just feel like too much in the way of risk/reward. You lose your Limit, and they can just tech it. It's pretty easy to tech too

 

[Random4811]

Pretty sure it's 6 to 11. I've actually had really hard time landing LB Cross Slash for a stage spike, any tips? It just feel like too much in the way of risk/reward. You lose your Limit, and they can just tech it. It's pretty easy to tech too

You have to know when to use it, bait out an aerial, and do it close enough to the stage that they will get hit again if they do tech it. The risk/reward evens out thanks to the scary hitbox and the intangibility. The KB on the move is pretty good, and the KB growth is pretty strong so at high percents it becomes very hard to tech.

Also try your hand with limit blade beam edgeguarding, because if it hits the hitbox lingers

 

[SpicyMango]

First impressions of Corrin and Bayonetta matchups:

Corrin: So far, this is one of the hardest characters I've fought. Granted character just came out but it's definitely hard.

Bayonetta: This one is much more neutral in terms of who could win. But Bayonetta is barely even touching the surface of her potential of what she can do.

For both of these matchups you MUST play campy. Especially against Bayonetta. I have been playing nonstop and Bayonetta is extremely hard to fight.

This is way too early to tell of course but just a few of my first impressions :-)

(I'll be editing this post as time goes on)

 

[verbatim]

First impressions of Corrin and Bayonetta matchups:

Corrin: So far, this is one of the hardest characters I've fought. Granted character just came out but it's definitely hard.

Do they have any kind of specific matchup advantage against Cloud or are they just a good character?

 

[Blue Banana]

Hi, the Olimar board is now discussing the Cloud matchup. Any input is appreciated.

 

[Stylo Ren]

Corrin is a game of spacing, so if you have trouble fighting Corrin, you have trouble spacing and you already have a fundamental issue with your Cloud play. Corrin should be no problem honestly, as we outspace them in many places and have more overall K.O. power. We can gimp Corrin much easier than she can gimp us, and we can catch them with Usmash OoS on a lot of their options. They arent very safe on shield outside of their bair.

Bayonetta is a mixed bag for me so far. I've never been death combo'd because they're all escapable, at least that I've seen anyway. If she can't get that combo kill on you, she's gonna be searching for a kill. We have a better neutral game, and can space her out. Limit makes us more dangerous than her, but Witch time keeps her in the match.

 

[verbatim]

Corrin is a game of spacing, so if you have trouble fighting Corrin, you have trouble spacing and you already have a fundamental issue with your Cloud play. Corrin should be no problem honestly, as we outspace them in many places and have more overall K.O. power. We can gimp Corrin much easier than she can gimp us, and we can catch them with Usmash OoS on a lot of their options. They arent very safe on shield outside of their bair.

What moves are you outspacing Corrin with? From my testing IK that Corrin uair beats Cloud dair w/ correct spacing, beyond that I'd imagine that the nair's are pretty comparable, Cloud has a longer ftilt, and Corrin has a longer fsmash.

If anything I'd think that Cloud's biggest advantage is Corrin's slow speed and inability to deny him limit charges.

 

[KTVX]

Quick question, who do you think Cloud has a harder time against: Charizard or Bayonetta?

 

[solobeatz]

Quick question, who do you think Cloud has a harder time against: Charizard or Bayonetta?

Bay. Charizard does higher % but its moves have longer startup and get predictable. Bay can chip at Cloud from a longer ranger than Char with her guns, her down tilt has longer range than Cloud's which is great for combos at low/mid %, she has safe meteor too that covers our man's recovery too.

That's all of course assuming she doesn't SD mid combo or in the middle of attempting to get back on stage (I attribute it to her being new), but I digress

 

[KTVX]

Bay. Charizard does higher % but its moves have longer startup and get predictable. Bay can chip at Cloud from a longer ranger than Char with her guns, her down tilt has longer range than Cloud's which is great for combos at low/mid %, she has safe meteor too that covers our man's recovery too.

That's all of course assuming she doesn't SD mid combo or in the middle of attempting to get back on stage (I attribute it to her being new), but I digress

Hmm, the problem I see with Bayo is that Blade Beam outranges her Bullet Arts while her Bullet Climax's angle can't really hit Cloud at a useful distance because of the angle unless she's at a lower height. She's far easier to KO and doesn't have many tools to deal with the Buster Sword other than shielding or attacking before Cloud whereas Charizard gets super armor and damage-based priority to clang attacks more easily. She does have Witch Time but it's better on paper than in practice, and she has better mobility and air game to avoid being juggled by uair, but can't do much in return regardless.

As a Cloud main, what are the most annoying or tough things to face has Bayonetta done so far? And what about Charizard? I guess the lack of Charizard players, especially the good ones, doesn't help much.


Edit: I thought of it but wasn't sure and I just checked it: Charizard doesn't necessarily have more startup than Bayo. Jab, ftilt, all smashes bar forward have less startup for 'zard. The other moves are pretty close, with 1-4 frame differences save for aerials in which she has the clear upper hand. Not to mention Charizard's smashes can't be cancelled as easily as Bayonetta's, making punishes easier and still more powerful.

Sorry if I sound like I'm asking but already know/ believe/ etc. the answer, I'm honestly curious but can't find solid enough reasons to convince myself despite others telling me it's Bayonetta. I need to be sure of whom I should rely on to face Cloud when my mains don't cut it.

 

[Stylo Ren]

Hmm, the problem I see with Bayo is that Blade Beam outranges her Bullet Arts while her Bullet Climax's angle can't really hit Cloud at a useful distance because of the angle unless she's at a lower height. She's far easier to KO and doesn't have many tools to deal with the Buster Sword other than shielding or attacking before Cloud whereas Charizard gets super armor and damage-based priority to clang attacks more easily. She does have Witch Time but it's better on paper than in practice, and she has better mobility and air game to avoid being juggled by uair, but can't do much in return regardless.

As a Cloud main, what are the most annoying or tough things to face has Bayonetta done so far? And what about Charizard? I guess the lack of Charizard players, especially the good ones, doesn't help much.


Edit: I thought of it but wasn't sure and I just checked it: Charizard doesn't necessarily have more startup than Bayo. Jab, ftilt, all smashes bar forward have less startup for 'zard. The other moves are pretty close, with 1-4 frame differences save for aerials in which she has the clear upper hand. Not to mention Charizard's smashes can't be cancelled as easily as Bayonetta's, making punishes easier and still more powerful.

Sorry if I sound like I'm asking but already know/ believe/ etc. the answer, I'm honestly curious but can't find solid enough reasons to convince myself despite others telling me it's Bayonetta. I need to be sure of whom I should rely on to face Cloud when my mains don't cut it.

Zard has worthless airspeed and is combo food. Everything he does is predictable and most of his moves have enough startup and end lag to be Finishing Touched when whiffed.

Bayo can combo Cloud for days

What moves are you outspacing Corrin with? From my testing IK that Corrin uair beats Cloud dair w/ correct spacing, beyond that I'd imagine that the nair's are pretty comparable, Cloud has a longer ftilt, and Corrin has a longer fsmash.

If anything I'd think that Cloud's biggest advantage is Corrin's slow speed and inability to deny him limit charges.

You misunderstood me fam. The battle is a battle of spacing. I.E. The one with better spacing will do better. I think Cloud has some other advantages, but if you're great at spacing, you're likely going to win because Corrin has a hard time coming in. Also, Corrin's terrible speed and airspeed are going to make Cloud's speed more threatening.

 

[A_Kae]

Hello, Cloud players! The Marth and Lucina sub-forum has begun matchup discussion and analysis on the Cloud matchup. If you have any input to add, or wish to fight against a Marth/Lucina player for matchup experience, please join us at the following link.

http://smashboards.com/threads/vs-cloud-matchup-discussion-and-analysis.430649/

And be sure to check the directory thread for the rules and guidelines.

http://smashboards.com/threads/matchup-discussion-and-analysis-directory.414156/

 

[RonNewcomb]

As a Cloud main, what are the most annoying or tough things to face has Bayonetta done so far?

Down-smash ledge guards + up-Bs that don't snap the ledge = dead Clouds.

 

[KTVX]

Thanks guys.

 

[Shotgun B]

Corrin is a game of spacing, so if you have trouble fighting Corrin, you have trouble spacing and you already have a fundamental issue with your Cloud play. Corrin should be no problem honestly, as we outspace them in many places and have more overall K.O. power. We can gimp Corrin much easier than she can gimp us, and we can catch them with Usmash OoS on a lot of their options. They arent very safe on shield outside of their bair.

Could you possibly use Corrin and teach me how to do this? I've been having a downright awful time with this matchup...albeit I'm not a very good player and only have Smash 3DS (not Wii U), but it's still one of the most troubling matchups I've seen in this game. Corrin's Counter really screws up my juggle game, and his dair lets him fast-fall to the ground with a hitbox whenever I'm too slow/scared to go for the uair. Or he could just fall "normally" if I'm not attacking. In any case, it's a real gamble and guessing game, and I feel like Cloud has the bad end of the deal since Counter KO's off the top much sooner than our Uair.
Corrin's aerials seem to be AT LEAST even with ours...his uair beats our dair, and we don't have a Counter that kills at 60%. His fair/nair both seem to beat our nair. We can outcamp him, but not enough to keep him at bay for much of the match like Toon Link does. He will end up getting in, and when he does, his aerials, the threat of his B moves and wtf-ranged fsmash really shut me down. So yeah... if you could show me how to play around that garbage I'd really appreciate it.

 

[Stylo Ren]

Could you possibly use Corrin and teach me how to do this? I've been having a downright awful time with this matchup...albeit I'm not a very good player and only have Smash 3DS (not Wii U), but it's still one of the most troubling matchups I've seen in this game. Corrin's Counter really screws up my juggle game, and his dair lets him fast-fall to the ground with a hitbox whenever I'm too slow/scared to go for the uair. Or he could just fall "normally" if I'm not attacking. In any case, it's a real gamble and guessing game, and I feel like Cloud has the bad end of the deal since Counter KO's off the top much sooner than our Uair.
Corrin's aerials seem to be AT LEAST even with ours...his uair beats our dair, and we don't have a Counter that kills at 60%. His fair/nair both seem to beat our nair. We can outcamp him, but not enough to keep him at bay for much of the match like Toon Link does. He will end up getting in, and when he does, his aerials, the threat of his B moves and wtf-ranged fsmash really shut me down. So yeah... if you could show me how to play around that garbage I'd really appreciate it.

Dude I totally would if my 3DS connected to the internet here.

If Corrin's counter is what is screwing you up, im sorry, but you arent good enough at this game to understand MU's. If Corrin is using their counter when you're uairing, bait it out and then punish it. You should know its coming, especially if they've done it more than once in a set.

Corrin's dair is a joke. Uair will trade with it (which is bad for Corrin) and if they land with dair, punish it. Its not a good landing option.

Their Uair isnt fantastic, so if you wait it out, you can still get the dair. Also your dair lasts for literal years, so you can throw it out, wait out their uair, and then ff into the end of the animation.

We can kill Corrin with so much ease, with so many moves, and much earlier than they can kill us. If we space properly, they do not stand a chance.

 

[CHOMPY]

Hey guys, the Dark Pit/Pit boards are discussing the Cloud matchup, so I came here to invite you guys to it.

Please go to our /matchup thread below.

http://smashboards.com/threads/batt...scussion-cloud-yoshi-and-marth.414936/page-11

 

[-m0]

Dude I totally would if my 3DS connected to the internet here.

If Corrin's counter is what is screwing you up, im sorry, but you arent good enough at this game to understand MU's. If Corrin is using their counter when you're uairing, bait it out and then punish it. You should know its coming, especially if they've done it more than once in a set.

Corrin's dair is a joke. Uair will trade with it (which is bad for Corrin) and if they land with dair, punish it. Its not a good landing option.

Their Uair isnt fantastic, so if you wait it out, you can still get the dair. Also your dair lasts for literal years, so you can throw it out, wait out their uair, and then ff into the end of the animation.

We can kill Corrin with so much ease, with so many moves, and much earlier than they can kill us. If we space properly, they do not stand a chance.

Kamui's dair does do a lot of damage, I was messing around on Wii U with my friend and I took 21% from one dair. However it's still not a good option and I agree that the counter needs to be baited out and you need to learn to bait it. I've actually learned a whole lot about baiting from playing Corrin and his counter, maybe I could play you S Shotgun B ? I have only the 3DS too and while I'm nowhere near a Corrin main, maybe I could teach you at least some basics of juggling and baiting?
Also Stylo Ren , you're Random4811 right? Digging the new name

Hey guys, the Dark Pit/Pit boards are discussing the Marth matchup, so I came here to invite you guys to it.

Please go to our /matchup thread below.

http://smashboards.com/threads/batt...scussion-cloud-yoshi-and-marth.414936/page-11

Marth?

 

[CHOMPY]

Kamui's dair does do a lot of damage, I was messing around on Wii U with my friend and I took 21% from one dair. However it's still not a good option and I agree that the counter needs to be baited out and you need to learn to bait it. I've actually learned a whole lot about baiting from playing Corrin and his counter, maybe I could play you S Shotgun B ? I have only the 3DS too and while I'm nowhere near a Corrin main, maybe I could teach you at least some basics of juggling and baiting?
Also Stylo Ren , you're Random4811 right? Digging the new name


Marth?

Typo, lol. I was copying and pasting the same message to the Marth boards. It's meant to say Cloud, lol.

 

[Guimartgon]

Opinions on the Ryu MU? I really dislike it as Greninja and while Mario is really good vs Ryu the MU is not a lot of fun(although I don't really enjoy facing Ryu too much, it's kinda like oh look one mistake *Dies at 60*) And I was thinking that cloud might have a fun, not horrible MU against him since I have a big AF sword to space him out and I can condition him to not Focus due to Limit Side B.

 

[Kaiserkami]

For me playing on 3DS mostly , the Ryu MU its sorta touch and go depending on your positioning. You have a big sword, space him out. he has a fist, he has to get close to you. Blade Beam snuffs out his projectiles including the fire ball. If he's trying to come back onto the stage you have nair, limit side b. finishing touch for trolls, or you could just chill and wait for him to come on stage and punish accordingly.

You're faster than him and with Cloud being in limit you have the speed of shiek and the air speed of jiggs, you're literally flying around Ryu like Vega. he doesn't have much to stop you from up-air juggles, nair and short hop bair are good options to use as he'll try to get in with his fair, bair, or nair. You just can't let him get in cause once he does, its over. This is based on my experiences against Ryu players, so I feel its in cloud's favor and definitely in limit cloud's favor.

 

[-m0]

This is based on my experiences against Ryu players, so I feel its in cloud's favor and definitely in limit cloud's favor.

Well while we're in Limit, we lose upb OOS as an escape, as well as a free counter to Focus Attack in Cross Slash. Overall, we lose a good part of our neutral and are kinda forced to do nothing but nair, bair, fair, and occasionally jab or utilt while we're in Limit.

he doesn't have much to stop you from up-air juggles,

I have to say that Ryu does have a really good option against juggles in general with down b lol

I think shield is essential against Ryu though. His approaches are very linear with his one directional airspeed and lack of safe moves to use in neutral. We really shouldn't be letting him space fair/bair so we should keep him out with spaced nair and bair. We can also slide under all 3 hadokens if he uses them at that range (however I've found that dtilt is also a useful option to get past hado even if you don't hit Ryu). Smart Ryu's will either recover high with DJ->Tatsu and land with Focus Attack or just sweetspot quickly with Tatsu/Shoryu. However, if he ever Tatsus from far away, you should be ready. Ryu is extremely vulnerable to the Buster/Fusion Sword while he's Tatsuing. You get your choice of nair, fair, bair, dair, LB Cross Slash, and LB Blade Beam. Honestly if you misspace your aerials badly enough for Ryu to hit you with weak utilt->TSRK/TSRK in general you deserve to die.

 

[Shotgun B]

Kamui's dair does do a lot of damage, I was messing around on Wii U with my friend and I took 21% from one dair. However it's still not a good option and I agree that the counter needs to be baited out and you need to learn to bait it. I've actually learned a whole lot about baiting from playing Corrin and his counter, maybe I could play you S Shotgun B ? I have only the 3DS too and while I'm nowhere near a Corrin main, maybe I could teach you at least some basics of juggling and baiting?

Yeah, that'd be great! Let me know what time works best.

 

[Guimartgon]

I've been trying to keep limit for a small amount of time, finding an opening for limit crosslash or neutral B to break focuses and deal a lot of damage, then quickly run tf away cause Ryu's scary, then charge down B to force approaches. It's been working well, specially if you can condition your opponent to focus on air-air situations. sadly we can't sit on shield as happily as we would like cause Ryu's ftilt does ridiculous shield damage(I believe it eats like 90% of our shield or so?) but mixing up OOLC options and sometimes just Ftilting him for trying to grab/ftilt makes ryu players have to think twice before they try to punish our limit charge.

I didn't know dtilt went under hadouken, that's really good since now ryu's can't use hadouken to force our shield out of limit charge to then grab/break it! I still have issues dealing with Bair and fair but that's just me getting outspaced after hadouken pressure. Thanks!

 

[-m0]

Yeah, that'd be great! Let me know what time works best.

Im on vacation at an outdoor center atm. The internets pretty good, but I did get some rather bad input lag during some matches, and it was smooth other times. It probably depends on how good your internet is, but I'd probably be up to play after 7:30 ish.

I've been trying to keep limit for a small amount of time, finding an opening for limit crosslash or neutral B to break focuses and deal a lot of damage, then quickly run tf away cause Ryu's scary, then charge down B to force approaches. It's been working well, specially if you can condition your opponent to focus on air-air situations. sadly we can't sit on shield as happily as we would like cause Ryu's ftilt does ridiculous shield damage(I believe it eats like 90% of our shield or so?) but mixing up OOLC options and sometimes just Ftilting him for trying to grab/ftilt makes ryu players have to think twice before they try to punish our limit charge.

I didn't know dtilt went under hadouken, that's really good since now ryu's can't use hadouken to force our shield out of limit charge to then grab/break it! I still have issues dealing with Bair and fair but that's just me getting outspaced after hadouken pressure. Thanks!

I went to a tournament a couple days ago and met a Ryu main that had some opinions on the matchup. He basically confirmed what I was saying earlier with how Ryu struggles to get in, but he destroys when he does get in. He also confirmed Ryu's lack of safe approaches outside of nair, which is short range but is fast-he can do two in a short hop.

 

[Stylo Ren]

Kamui's dair does do a lot of damage, I was messing around on Wii U with my friend and I took 21% from one dair. However it's still not a good option and I agree that the counter needs to be baited out and you need to learn to bait it. I've actually learned a whole lot about baiting from playing Corrin and his counter, maybe I could play you S Shotgun B ? I have only the 3DS too and while I'm nowhere near a Corrin main, maybe I could teach you at least some basics of juggling and baiting?
Also Stylo Ren , you're Random4811 right? Digging the new name


Marth?

Yeah, I be him
thanks man

The Ryu matchup is something I dont have a decisive opinion on. My training partner is a Ryu and its a constant back and forth. I feel like its a pretty even matchup but I cant really say anything, and its not a matchup we really see in tournament.

I will say that Ryu has to play patiently, and getting in is annoying for him, but once he's in he can kill combo for days. He's scary.

He can respond to any of our approaches with aerial focus attack, which is scary because he can descending dragon into several options, including Shokunetsu, which at high percents can lead into a shroyuken.

True Shroyuken is scarier than finishing touch and its an optimal punish in a lot of situations. He can punish our recovery and keep us off stage well with hadouken, he can falling focus attack to gimp, the tech window for it is very narrow and hard to pull off.

He's got a lot of good options against us, we have good options against him.

Between my boi Kaiju and I, at least, Ryu v Cloud is even or close to

 

[-m0]

Yeah, I be him
thanks man

The Ryu matchup is something I dont have a decisive opinion on. My training partner is a Ryu and its a constant back and forth. I feel like its a pretty even matchup but I cant really say anything, and its not a matchup we really see in tournament.

I will say that Ryu has to play patiently, and getting in is annoying for him, but once he's in he can kill combo for days. He's scary.

He can respond to any of our approaches with aerial focus attack, which is scary because he can descending dragon into several options, including Shokunetsu, which at high percents can lead into a shroyuken.

True Shroyuken is scarier than finishing touch and its an optimal punish in a lot of situations. He can punish our recovery and keep us off stage well with hadouken, he can falling focus attack to gimp, the tech window for it is very narrow and hard to pull off.

He's got a lot of good options against us, we have good options against him.

Between my boi Kaiju and I, at least, Ryu v Cloud is even or close to

I will say that in theory, Ryu should never be able to get in on us. His neutral is pretty poor and we're gifted with a free way around hado and we're able to keep him out very well with nair and such. Spacing is very crucial here. Obviously he will eventually get in and go to town but it's very important to keep him out. Given that, I do think this matchup is in Clouds favor because we should barely get hit with optimal play.

 

[Stylo Ren]

I will say that in theory, Ryu should never be able to get in on us. His neutral is pretty poor and we're gifted with a free way around hado and we're able to keep him out very well with nair and such. Spacing is very crucial here. Obviously he will eventually get in and go to town but it's very important to keep him out. Given that, I do think this matchup is in Clouds favor because we should barely get hit with optimal play.

Ryu does not have poor neutral. Not in my opinion, anyway. I dont know what your experience with him is though.

Focus attack is as/more powerful than Diddy's banana in Neutral, Ryu's footsies are on point-- and Ryu's footsies lead into explosive combos. Hado is amazing. It absolutely covers one of our options and forces us to commit to another one, it is as good as blade beam, IMO.

Ryu playing on point should have amazing spacing. He has a lot of really good options that are just difficult to awnser, and really really really good punishes. Shokunetsu combos into Shroyuken. Tatsu is a free spacing reset. Forward air is AMAZING. Nair is really good and combos. Once again, Focus attack is a great tool here. He can force us to commit to options and then punish us for doing so, and he has some of the best punishes in the game (like Shroyuken)

 

[-m0]

Ryu does not have poor neutral. Not in my opinion, anyway. I dont know what your experience with him is though.

Focus attack is as/more powerful than Diddy's banana in Neutral, Ryu's footsies are on point-- and Ryu's footsies lead into explosive combos. Hado is amazing. It absolutely covers one of our options and forces us to commit to another one, it is as good as blade beam, IMO.

Ryu playing on point should have amazing spacing. He has a lot of really good options that are just difficult to awnser, and really really really good punishes. Shokunetsu combos into Shroyuken. Tatsu is a free spacing reset. Forward air is AMAZING. Nair is really good and combos. Once again, Focus attack is a great tool here. He can force us to commit to options and then punish us for doing so, and he has some of the best punishes in the game (like Shroyuken)

The Ryu I played in tournament didn't have a good nuetral, I assumed it was the char not the player, my bad. But what can he do against our sword attacks in general? Especially in nuetral, like I said, I don't feel that an optimally played Cloud should ever have to let Ryu in, but idk. Teach us based Stylo.

 

[Stylo Ren]

The Ryu I played in tournament didn't have a good nuetral, I assumed it was the char not the player, my bad. But what can he do against our sword attacks in general? Especially in nuetral, like I said, I don't feel that an optimally played Cloud should ever have to let Ryu in, but idk. Teach us based Stylo.

Sword attacks? Focus attack
Dash cancel focus attack into anything
Descending dragon (amazing focus attack tech) into whatever he wants
Bait and punish
Time short/medium tatsu or even possibly long tatsu to catch us when we fail
hadouken to cover a whole area of our options
Shokunetsu to cover the same area of our options, but also that can combo into True Shroyuken at max range.
Time Uptilt to catch a landing and then boom he has a very powerful combo into just about anything. SDI saves lives, learn which way to SDI boys.
Collarbone breaker is one of the best shield attacks in the game, its pretty safe on shield (at least vs Cloud it seems to be) and literally melts shields, even on perfect shield.
Focus attack forces us to stop literally anything we're doing or get punished. And if we try and bait it out and punish he can dash cancel it into an attack.

 

[-m0]

Sword attacks? Focus attack
Dash cancel focus attack into anything
Descending dragon (amazing focus attack tech) into whatever he wants
Bait and punish
Time short/medium tatsu or even possibly long tatsu to catch us when we fail
hadouken to cover a whole area of our options
Shokunetsu to cover the same area of our options, but also that can combo into True Shroyuken at max range.
Time Uptilt to catch a landing and then boom he has a very powerful combo into just about anything. SDI saves lives, learn which way to SDI boys.
Collarbone breaker is one of the best shield attacks in the game, its pretty safe on shield (at least vs Cloud it seems to be) and literally melts shields, even on perfect shield.
Focus attack forces us to stop literally anything we're doing or get punished. And if we try and bait it out and punish he can dash cancel it into an attack.

This is if he's able to get in though...

 

[Stylo Ren]

This is if he's able to get in though...

no
Those are his spacing and neutral options.

 

[Guimartgon]

I've been playing against ryu a lot more as of late, I now have somewhat of a 50-50 record against the best Ryu in CO, who goes to my weeklies. And I feel like -m0 is right. Focus doesn't matter in air-air situations, if he uses it to go in side B shuts him down.
If he does the focus cancel fast fall then he can get hit by our nair/dair. Hadouken pressure is somewhat real but not really. If there is a Hadouken coming towards us and then the ryu player tries to use that to his advantage he has two main options, Hadouken and then approach with focus, which gets beaten by us running the hell away through the hadouken. He can also Hadouken and slowly go in, but perfect shielding hadouken is easy and then we have a big AF sword and he doesn't.

If you play your cards right, Ryu is gonna have a lot of trouble going in. Not only that but you can condition your opponent's focus stuff. If you just respect focus then of course he's gonna get in, but if you show him hey I have this sweet side B and Fsmash to catch you whenever you are using focus aerialy to go in then ryu is not gonna be able to land, forcing the ryu player to not just focus all over the place until you crack.
Also with limit charged, we can just run away farely easily. Ryu is fairly fast(30th on the roster) but he can't outrun us. he also doesn't have any solid antiairs, Uair's hitbox is minimal, shoryuken as an antiair is risky and doesn't sweetspot, fair is angled downwards e.t.c.

Thanks for the help!

 

[shinhed-echi]

Last tournanent I lost to a really good Mario, I was using Sonic, and I thought I would adapt, to the MU, but I ultimately lost.

I was really tempted to switch to Cloud, though, but since he was fairly new, I was afraid to do a lot worse.

Just how bad is the Cloud vs Mario MU? Say I played both Sonic and Cloud equally well, who's better at tearing down a wall of Mario?

 

[Fex13]

Last tournanent I lost to a really good Mario, I was using Sonic, and I thought I would adapt, to the MU, but I ultimately lost.

I was really tempted to switch to Cloud, though, but since he was fairly new, I was afraid to do a lot worse.

Just how bad is the Cloud vs Mario MU? Say I played both Sonic and Cloud equally well, who's better at tearing down a wall of Mario?

there is one BIG problem for cloud when fighting against mario. and that is mario's fludd. it destroys cloud. if you get off stage, you better pray for help.
otherwise, you outrange mario hard and should always keep center stage. additionally, try staying grounded and use cloud's great ground movement to get in. dont try to challenge him in the air. on another note i think limit cloud is worse than regular cloud against mario, because in limit he can juggle you much better.
due to the fludd problem, i would say this match up iss actually in marios favor.

 

[-m0]

there is one BIG problem for cloud when fighting against mario. and that is mario's fludd. it destroys cloud. if you get off stage, you better pray for help.
otherwise, you outrange mario hard and should always keep center stage. additionally, try staying grounded and use cloud's great ground movement to get in. dont try to challenge him in the air. on another note i think limit cloud is worse than regular cloud against mario, because in limit he can juggle you much better.
due to the fludd problem, i would say this match up iss actually in marios favor.

I mean, it only destroys you if you're an idiot with your recovery lol. And Limit Cloud is worse in pretty much every matchup because of all the neutral tools we lose.

 

[Guimartgon]

I mean, it only destroys you if you're an idiot with your recovery lol. And Limit Cloud is worse in pretty much every matchup because of all the neutral tools we lose.

Shouldn't a downwards angled flood still screw as over? I'm guessing that by smart recovery you mean not wasting your double jump, but sometimes you need it if you recover low.

 

[-m0]

Shouldn't a downwards angled flood still screw as over? I'm guessing that by smart recovery you mean not wasting your double jump, but sometimes you need it if you recover low.

I mean stuff like not trying to sweetspot from above when he has a charged fludd, using AD-cancel -> early sweetspot, etc. Downward angled fludd will screw us over as much as any other char, in other word sending us high up to be caped to death. We may be a bit more vulnerable to it due to how we hang next to the ledge before grabbing it, but it's not a huge factor.

 

[-m0]

no
Those are his spacing and neutral options.

Bump.
Stylo Ren I played a much better Ryu at tournament today and I can see what you're talking about, I have a writeup in the works rn