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Meta Let the Battles Begin! - Cloud Matchup Thread

KirbyFan20

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Can anyone please help with the Cloud MU for me? I can almost never beat a Cloud who knows what he's doing, unless he makes a dumb mistake like letting me gimp him or him messing up his recovery.

I main Kirby, and secondary Toon Link and Corrin.
 
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Stylo Ren

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Shouldn't a downwards angled flood still screw as over? I'm guessing that by smart recovery you mean not wasting your double jump, but sometimes you need it if you recover low.
If you DI into flood it actually does nothing, so long as you dont use your recovery or jump while its active.

I've been playing against ryu a lot more as of late, I now have somewhat of a 50-50 record against the best Ryu in CO, who goes to my weeklies. And I feel like -m0 -m0 is right. Focus doesn't matter in air-air situations, if he uses it to go in side B shuts him down.
If he does the focus cancel fast fall then he can get hit by our nair/dair. Hadouken pressure is somewhat real but not really. If there is a Hadouken coming towards us and then the ryu player tries to use that to his advantage he has two main options, Hadouken and then approach with focus, which gets beaten by us running the hell away through the hadouken. He can also Hadouken and slowly go in, but perfect shielding hadouken is easy and then we have a big AF sword and he doesn't.

If you play your cards right, Ryu is gonna have a lot of trouble going in. Not only that but you can condition your opponent's focus stuff. If you just respect focus then of course he's gonna get in, but if you show him hey I have this sweet side B and Fsmash to catch you whenever you are using focus aerialy to go in then ryu is not gonna be able to land, forcing the ryu player to not just focus all over the place until you crack.
Also with limit charged, we can just run away farely easily. Ryu is fairly fast(30th on the roster) but he can't outrun us. he also doesn't have any solid antiairs, Uair's hitbox is minimal, shoryuken as an antiair is risky and doesn't sweetspot, fair is angled downwards e.t.c.

Thanks for the help!
>doesnt have solid anti-airs
True Shroyuken has invincibility, good knockback without sweetspot, and can kill
Utilt combos
hard utilt is good
hard jab is good
OoS Usmash is pretty good.

So, I dunno about that fam.
 
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Guimartgon

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If you DI into flood it actually does nothing, so long as you dont use your recovery or jump while its active.



>doesnt have solid anti-airs
True Shroyuken has invincibility, good knockback without sweetspot, and can kill
Utilt combos
hard utilt is good
hard jab is good
OoS Usmash is pretty good.

So, I dunno about that fam.
I meant range wise, since we have a greater air speed than him. But I feel like this conversation is kinda pointless at this point.

Can anyone please help with the Cloud MU for me? I can almost never beat a Cloud who knows what he's doing, unless he makes a dumb mistake like letting me gimp him or him messing up his recovery.

I main Kirby, and secondary Toon Link and Corrin.
Kirby-Cloud is pretty awful for Kirby, you can't do much and you need to respect literally everything he throws out because it's really easy for Cloud to outspace the crap out of kirby. I have some experience in the Tink MU since I play the best Tink in CO rather often, The MU is better than kirby's but it's not too great, you have to have amazing item usage and try to punish Cloud for charging Down B, you essentially run away a lot, throw **** in a smart way to cover his approach and then try to confirm Bomb to Fair, but it's pretty tough.

Corrin: Corrin's neutral B is dumb. Like, very,very stupid. It is an amazing threat that Cloud has to respect a lot. I'd say you have a pretty nice chance if you put work onto your corrin. Have good movement and comprehend when to use neutral B and side B. Remember that Cloud's nair can beat yours so try to avoid most Air/Air situations, but you most certainly win ground/ground and you on ground/cloud on air. You on Air/Cloud on Ground is awful though, Corrin sucks at landing and cloud is a godly juggler. So avoid that situation, try to not jump around too much or you'll get caught by perfect pivot Utilt and then you have to play a bad guessing game(unless they are dumb and just swing, in which case you can counter the Utilt Uair). So yeah play the stage control game, corner cloud and remember, blue ball of screw you is very powerful. Also if you don't know how to you should learn how to combo blue ball into bair/tipper side B.
 
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-m0

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Can anyone please help with the Cloud MU for me? I can almost never beat a Cloud who knows what he's doing, unless he makes a dumb mistake like letting me gimp him or him messing up his recovery.

I main Kirby, and secondary Toon Link and Corrin.
I have to agree with Guimartgon, Kirby-Cloud is pretty awful. I secondary Tink but I have no Tink-Cloud exp, so I won't talk. Corrin-Cloud is pretty even I think. I can't really add more to what Guimartgon said. Definitely try to read stuff like DJ -> airdodge back to stage and punish it. Reading Cloud's limited recovery options is key here (he can mix it up in many ways but it's still limited) Try to steal his DJ and gimp him while he's drifting back. If you know Cloud is going to uair you, counter and it'll kill really early, but make absolutely sure you KNOW he's going to uair. Only be afraid of Cloud getting Limit at mid-high percents, him getting it early means more utilts in your dtilt -> utilt strings cause of the increased weight and fallspeed.
 

KirbyFan20

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Thank you for the help, both of you. I'll try to keep this in mind next time I face a Cloud.
 

RonNewcomb

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Tink is good vs Cloud. Tink can neutral with projectiles so Cloud doesn't autowin on stage, and Tink can gimp and harass and fair kill offstage. If Cloud upBs to the ledge without autosnap, Tink can dair spike for free. Tink wins the MU if he plays safe onstage and aggressive offstage.
 

Guimartgon

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Tink is good vs Cloud. Tink can neutral with projectiles so Cloud doesn't autowin on stage, and Tink can gimp and harass and fair kill offstage. If Cloud upBs to the ledge without autosnap, Tink can dair spike for free. Tink wins the MU if he plays safe onstage and aggressive offstage.
Kinda, tink can certainly pressure cloud to make things happen(once cloud gets his limit, otherwise cloud doesn't have a reason to force anything). But the neutral is still in Cloud's favor IMO as long as you don't crack down to a solid projectile game. Retreating Nair OOS is really good for cloud in this MU since it can deal with a lot of tink's options. I think not giving tink a big stage to run around is crucial in this MU. But yeah offstage at higher %s, a well Zdropped(or just chugged) bombed can be lethal.
 

Rango the Mercenary

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Do you feel Cloud is an optimal choice against the top tiers of the game, namely Sheik and ZSS?

I'd want to say Bayonetta as well, but between Cloud going offstage and his lack of grab game, I see this matchup being troubling. Corrin is also a serious pain to deal with.
 

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What do you mean lack of grab game?
Any Throw > Limit Charge is a true combo.

Jokes aside, his huge disjoints are something Bayonetta doesn't really like, they just don't really let her approach comfortably.
As long as you're not predictable enough to get caught by Witch Time often, Cloud shouldn't have THAT much of a problem.
I would still believe it's in Bae's favor, but not impossible for Cloud by any means.
:196:
 

Lady Kuki

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After seeing a few Cloud vs Mewtwo match ups, it appears that Mewtwo has the slight advantage due to his Shadow Ball and his good edge guard game. To save me trouble from any skilled Mewtwo mains I might bump into, what should I do against Mewtwo?
 

MiloniVanili

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Is it just me or is the fox matchup AWFUL for cloud? maybe i just dont understand how im supposed to fight fox but it feels pretty bad man
 

Guimartgon

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Do you feel Cloud is an optimal choice against the top tiers of the game, namely Sheik and ZSS?

I'd want to say Bayonetta as well, but between Cloud going offstage and his lack of grab game, I see this matchup being troubling. Corrin is also a serious pain to deal with.
I think Cloud-Sheik is easily on Sheik's side. Needles are super oppressive. I don't think it's more than a 60-40 or a 55-45 in sheik's favor cause big sword prevents sheik from beating cloud down with good frame data. Cloud then struggles to get past angled needles since they kill his air speed, also dragging combo game, I killed a cloud after a string of Fairs into bouncing fish B reverse needles and then hit him with a quickly charged needle.
Is it just me or is the fox matchup AWFUL for cloud? maybe i just dont understand how im supposed to fight fox but it feels pretty bad man
It's not a good MU that's for sure. I feel like Cloud just doesn't really like rushdown characters. fast so they can dance in and out of our range and go for quick heavy punishes if we commit, Nair and Dair stay out forever and it's hard for cloud to recover. Cloud needs to keep playing the spacing game and it's certainly possible to do it, but Fox's amazing speed, lasers to punish us if cloud wants to get limit without having to approach(even still he can just bair pressure us). I think the neutral is sort of even but fox gets a lot by winning the neutral while Cloud can A) get some stage control, which sure, sweet, but not nearly as good as Fox's possible edgeguard situation as well as lots of percent. B) a juggle situation --> I think it's crucial that you keep fox up, since he is the fastest faller in the game it's pretty easy for Cloud to be like yo catch this uairs. You can frame trap fox at some heights so that he either gets hit by Uair, or lands with lag and you get to re juggle with utilt, make sure you get as much percent as possible in this situation.
 
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I've been having serious trouble vs. :4marth:/:4lucina:. Nair/ttilt juggles really screw me up, and they always keep me out of their range with safe pokes like ftilt, or down tilt. and I always have trouble recovering against them due to edgeguarding being one of their most notable strengths, which doesn't bode well with Cloud's bad recovery. :4feroy:is less of a problem but I still find him a nuisance in CQC. Can anyone give me advice on how to play against these characters, and what stages I should pick?
 

~Skelly~

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I've been having serious trouble vs. :4marth:/:4lucina:. Nair/ttilt juggles really screw me up, and they always keep me out of their range with safe pokes like ftilt, or down tilt. and I always have trouble recovering against them due to edgeguarding being one of their most notable strengths, which doesn't bode well with Cloud's bad recovery. :4feroy:is less of a problem but I still find him a nuisance in CQC. Can anyone give me advice on how to play against these characters, and what stages I should pick?
I have a similar problem with this MU as well (I'd like to get someone's input on this too.).

Wait a minute, doesn't nair outrange most of Marcina's attacks?
 

shinhed-echi

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I have a similar problem with this MU as well (I'd like to get someone's input on this too.).

Wait a minute, doesn't nair outrange most of Marcina's attacks?
Yeah, but when they're on the defense (and I don't blame them) the battle goes slightly uphill. IMO.
It's still doable, and I guess we could commit less and lure them in via Limit, but I fear the tipper as Cloud since his edgeguard game is just short of devastating.
 

Stylo Ren

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I've been having serious trouble vs. :4marth:/:4lucina:. Nair/ttilt juggles really screw me up, and they always keep me out of their range with safe pokes like ftilt, or down tilt. and I always have trouble recovering against them due to edgeguarding being one of their most notable strengths, which doesn't bode well with Cloud's bad recovery. :4feroy:is less of a problem but I still find him a nuisance in CQC. Can anyone give me advice on how to play against these characters, and what stages I should pick?
If you're having trouble, you need to work on your spacing and play less aggressively.

Roy is a joke for Cloud. MarCina isnt much better vs him.

If theyre beating you, its because you are consistently doing things wrong in a way that they can punish. You really need to work on your zoning and your saftey, and your punish game if you have problems against them. You can outwall and outzone marcina easily if you play safely. Utilize your shield, as they have a rather large problem dealing with shields thanks to little shield safety. Meanwhile, you have safe on shield options. So if they try to play the defensive wall game, you can beat them out.
 

ぱみゅ

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Cloud beats Marth and Lucina in the air, but will find trouble with grounded battles.
The best option is to be patient in the neutral, Blade Beam sometimes to force a reaction, challenge them in the air and juggle them to oblivion (because that's their weakest asset).
55:45 or maybe 60:40 for Cloud, the Falchion duo does have answers, but Cloud's reward game is much, much better than theirs (outside of Tipper Fsmash at least).
:196:
 

Stylo Ren

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Cloud beats Marth and Lucina in the air, but will find trouble with grounded battles.
The best option is to be patient in the neutral, Blade Beam sometimes to force a reaction, challenge them in the air and juggle them to oblivion (because that's their weakest asset).
55:45 or maybe 60:40 for Cloud, the Falchion duo does have answers, but Cloud's reward game is much, much better than theirs (outside of Tipper Fsmash at least).
:196:
Grounded battle? Shield. Punish their option against your shield. If they normally go for a grab, fake them out and go for an OoS option or even spotdodge punish grab.

Dtilt beats out most of their kit on the ground. In neutral, we don't have to engage them. They have to engage us. That puts them at a severe disadvantage, because they can't engage well. So just sit and charge limit in neutral and punish their options. We have a much more solid punish game than they do.
 

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But the Falchions don't commit, ever.
In this Neutral battle no side wants to move first as both have answers against each other. Dtilt is pretty safe but not definitive.
Limit and Cloud's devastating juggle game are the things that define the matchup, again, if both commit, both get quite hurt though Cloud's reward is much better; and if none truly commits, Cloud still gets his Limit nonsense.

Your post convinced me that it is a clear 40:60.
:196:
 
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Stylo Ren

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But the Falchions don't commit, ever.
In this Neutral battle no side wants to move first as both have answers against each other. Dtilt is pretty safe but not definitive.
Limit and Cloud's devastating juggle game are the things that define the matchup, again, if both commit, both get quite hurt though Cloud's reward is much better; and if none truly commits, Cloud still gets his Limit nonsense.

Your post convinced me that it is a clear 40:60.
:196:
If a Marcina never commits, that means they never throw out a move the entire match. Every move they make is a commitment thanks to their HORRIFIC frame data. Fair? nearly 40 frame commitment.

Oh, and its their best zoning/walling tool.

In neutral, we can just charge limit forcing them to stop us, because if they don't we get limit and get a free 30-40 damage, and then combo out of it, because you know, Limit side b has no lag so we can react right out of it.

we are much faster than them both aerially and grounded, so they have a hard time staying in advantage if they ever gain it, and our high mobility poses a huge problem for them.

I'd agree and say that 60:40 in Cloud's favor (if that is what you intended by that, I'm assuming that is what you mean) is a pretty fair rating, as the matchup isn't unwinnable for Marcina, its just hard.
 

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No, Marth or Lucina don't really use Fair as a walling option, this ain't Melee or Brawl.
It is bad and we all acknowledged it, so we stay more grounded, space with Jab or tilts (Ftilt particularly has amazing reach) and throw occasional (though pretty scarce) Nairs or Uairs.

I personally don't mind Cloud charging, I just play more cautious against the Limit. The most scary move there is Cross Slash, which is to be treated as a death grab (a super meaty, aerial death grab).

And yes, I meant Cloud's advantage.
:196:
 
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MudkipUniverse

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I believe that Rosalina vs. Cloud is around 65:35 or 60:40, in Cloud's favor. I've seen Dabuz place it on par with the MK MU, which is around 70:30 or 65:35. This write up may be biased, but it's some information to go off of. I'd like to hear this from the Cloud player's perspective.

First off, Rosalina struggles to land. Cloud Uair has a great AC window & hits hard. Rosa will have to be tricky with her recovery. Cloud's aerials in general cover large spaces and have good AC's. "Airdodge > LL aerial" might be a viable landing option for Rosa but don't expect it to work everytime. LL Nair is especially good because Luma Nair comes out Frame 3, and has 2 hits, which could randomly clip the opponent. If I airdodge at the "wrong" time, I might be hit by Cloud's substantially long Uair hitbox, So i have to look out for that.

Rosa's recovery lacks a hitbox. This means that if Cloud has Limit on deck, then a free SideB awaits him alot of times. Dtilt also is trouble for a Rosa on the edge, makes it much tougher to get up, as Dtilt lasts a while & has pretty low ending lag. It also kills Luma :( . As a matter of fact, lots of clouds moves beat up on luma. Without luma i have no cheesy, sorta gimmicky mixups like Star bits, and I have no super good forwards hitboxes. The lack of Luma means that Nair & Uair have lost their Forwards hitboxes (Rosa nair does have a forward hitbox but it's harder to land & slower). This leaves my options at Ledge Jump, Rolling from ledge, normal getup, and getup attack. Normal getup will probably get clipped. Rosalina by herself, without luma, is pretty bad, but it seems to be even worse against Cloud. Not only that but it seems like with Cloud he gets rid of Luma pretty easily...

Cloud Dair is so good that its priority defeats Luma Uair (actually tbh Cloud priority is far better than most characters). It's much harder to space Uairs off of Uthrows, or even just spacing Uairs in general. What happens is that we both end up switching positioning on the stage & I could potentially end up being the one trying to land. I have to be patient as a Rosalina main against this Dair.

Cloud Bair is huge, and it makes me scared to board the platforms on Smashville & T&C. What usually goes down is that the Cloud player sharks with the Bair without landing on the platform, to prevent me from punishing them. I could probably get like a crappy dtilt OOS on cloud now that I think of it. Either that or have luma in a position to punish which is much harder. FD is a mediocre stage for Rosa so I can't just go there and expect to do better, especially when I can barely kill off the top with Uair. It is also one of cloud's amazing AC aerials that gives me trouble... This is probably a personal problem though because I fish on the platforms alot for early percentage kills lmao.
 
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Jp3

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Have you guys talked about the Cloud v Marth MU at all yet?

I'm starting to think it might be very slightly Marth favoured after playing it quite a bit in the last few weeks.
 

Smoking_Hot_BBQ

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Have we discussed cloud vs ness yet? I think Cloud wins because he outranges ness and can edgeguard him easily. I can't do in depth because I haven't played it enough.
 

MudkipUniverse

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Have we discussed cloud vs ness yet? I think Cloud wins because he outranges ness and can edgeguard him easily. I can't do in depth because I haven't played it enough.
One of my area's better players (and also my training partner) plays ness and personally thinks ness wins the MU against Cloud. He commonly slays them so I could ask him on his thoughts.
He also is trying to get a Cloud that he wants to bust out against my Rosa lmao.
 

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Have you guys talked about the Cloud v Marth MU at all yet?

I'm starting to think it might be very slightly Marth favoured after playing it quite a bit in the last few weeks.
We have, two posts above yours.
:196:
 

Jp3

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Definitely think the Marth/Cloud MU is actually really hard. Having played a lot of it in the last few days I'd go as far as to say its Marth favoured. I know very few people would agree with me but it has to be atleast even.
 

MiloniVanili

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Have we discussed cloud vs ness yet? I think Cloud wins because he outranges ness and can edgeguard him easily. I can't do in depth because I haven't played it enough.
I believe ness wins the MU due to his edge guarding game, down smash at the ledge, and ability to drag cloud from pretty much anywhere on the stage all the way to his death if he isnt careful/creative about his recovery. i have a LOT of experience fighting ness in semis/winners/grand finals of our locals here in west MI. however its definitely a free stock if we can force ness to recover with up b and as long as we have limit we are pretty safe from edge guards, his fair can actually beat our nair though so fighting him in the air is tricky. you also have to be careful about pk fire hitting your recovery, because you WILL die if the ness doesnt mess up.
 

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Definitely think the Marth/Cloud MU is actually really hard. Having played a lot of it in the last few days I'd go as far as to say its Marth favoured. I know very few people would agree with me but it has to be atleast even.
I recommend you to re-read what was posted: Cloud's about as safe as Marth is, so none really get much advantage from the neutral game, but Cloud's reward and aerial game is way better. I recommend you start abusing Marth when he is in the air a lot more, and not commiting too much when both are grounded.
:196:
 

Stylo Ren

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I mean if you think Cloud is as safe as 40-frame commitment 0 autocancel marth then you're just wrong based on empirical data.

Marth's main goal is to create a wall between he and his opponent with his zoning tools, including his aerials- primarly fair and uair, both of which are not very safe in any situation, are huge frame commitments, and if you land with them- you're going to suffer landing lag no matter what. They are completely not safe on shield at any angle against fast characters, which Cloud is.

Cloud however has bair which is always safe on shield when properly spaced, dair which is always safe on shield when the late hit is properly spaced, and nair which is again, always safe on shield when properly spaced. Not to mention the fact that Marth can't punish a well spaced fair on shield at all.

Almost all of Cloud's aerials have lower landing lag than Marth's and actually worthwhile AC windows, while Marth is suffering 16 or 17 frames of landing lag with his most useful aerials.

And also, dair as a safe shield poke can convert into a grab or punish if they don't shield drop to try and punish you. If they do, you have plenty of breathing room to respond to their option, and you can land and dash away almost immediately.

Grounded, Marth has a bit of a frame advantage on his some of his moves, but several of Cloud's moves come out first anyway, and have similar or better range. Cloud's dash attack and Dtilt are both potential combo starters, and Marth doesnt have a lot of options against them. Marth has no awnser to nair, and he has no awnser to limit charge. Limit charge forces him to approach, and he has no safe approaches.

And also, I mean, if you like getting hitconfirmed into death at 30, then I guess go ahead and let Cloud charge limit. Thats on you man

Not to mention he becomes like, roughly 5th fastest in the cast with limit on, meaning any kind of walling or zoning Marth tries to do is easily destroyed and his inferior mobility and poor frame data is easily taken advantage of at that stage.

So If you like playing against someone who can get in as easy as Fox, and switch playstyles on a whim if he wants to, then go ahead and let him charge limit.

Also, Limit Slash is a meaty grab? funny because Cloud can act almost instantaneously out of it, has invulnerability during 5 frames of the startup (which is more than the hitbox on most of Marth's terribly laggy moves) so I mean, if spaces it properly, good luck punishing him.

And not to mention that limit upB is invulnerable for even longer, kills, and has great range and is a great OoS punish
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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Part of me is wondering why some people are saying that Cloud "easily" beats Rosalina. That makes it sound like it's an unloseable match-up for Cloud, which may be giving him way too much credit.
 

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I think I probably overrated the MU in that post I made, switched ratio to 60:40 (but changed nothing else lmao.)

It´s probably closer to like 60:40 and it´s a pretty volatile MU due to Gimps on cloud & Finishing Touch. It´s not absolutely horrible of a MU.
 
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Stylo Ren

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I think its an MU cloud can easily use. Rosa's bair off stage is murderous, and Luma is a monster to deal with if you're anywhere offstage with her.
 

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Part of me is wondering why some people are saying that Cloud "easily" beats Rosalina. That makes it sound like it's an unloseable match-up for Cloud, which may be giving him way too much credit.
Because he obliterates Luma while being very noncommittal. Though people fail to recognize that rosa's dair absolutely obliterates Cloud's recovery from above.

I hate though that the MU thread seems pretty slow. I wanna have a detailed discussion on the Shiek MU since in theory, everyone says "he does well vs her on stage" but in practice, it's not super simple.
 

Zetox

Smash Cadet
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Apr 6, 2015
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7th Heaven
Because he obliterates Luma while being very noncommittal. Though people fail to recognize that rosa's dair absolutely obliterates Cloud's recovery from above.

I hate though that the MU thread seems pretty slow. I wanna have a detailed discussion on the Shiek MU since in theory, everyone says "he does well vs her on stage" but in practice, it's not super simple.
Just by curiosity what is your opinion on it? Who do you believe the MU favors with the nerfs now in place on Sheik?
 

Jaku618

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Jan 5, 2016
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Sandy Spring,Georgia
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Cloud benefit from the weight,needles,and suprisingly the fair nerf.The match-up was thought of 60-40 in Sheik favor in the discord but, now more in 55:45 for Sheik territory since Sheik still Sheik there's no changing that but, now its much doable.Also, losing kill options from grabs and Sheik general lack of killpower means Cloud has more of a chance to stay in rage against Sheik and that not a pleasant thing to go up against for her.
 
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HFlash

Future Physician and Sm4sher
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Just by curiosity what is your opinion on it? Who do you believe the MU favors with the nerfs now in place on Sheik?
So this is from my personal experience and opinion:

Pre patch, this MU was definitely Cloud's worst MU. The general game plan vs this character is to try to charge limit as much as possible, and force Shiek onto you. Try to get early kills with LB, and avoid using your double jump in the neutral because of how easily she can just string you off stage for easy gimps. The nerfs have not taken that away at all from her. The fair nerf doesn't matter in this MU because it's not the range that made the MU annoying (not the case for the rest of the cast) because of our own insane range, but the ability for that move to just carry you away into uncomfortable positions, that can lead to early deaths. The big change that has benefited us is that shielding is so much stronger now. Not in the early percents where her throws still lead to crazy combos, but at later percents. Now, although throwing us off stage is a pretty strong move for shiek, because it doesn't lead into 50/50's, we can just keep taking more and more damage. Cloud is pretty heavy, and can take advantage of being hit alot (rage + meter).

I'm analyzing my own videos and those of high level play of this MU but the big tools from our perspective are:

Nair: Let's say even if you perfectly space them, the Shiek perfect shields and punishes with a grab. With Nair, you have enough time after ending lag to use dtilt, this can stuff the shiek's grab. She can counterplay this by shielding the dtilt after the nair, but the Mixup is to grab after nairing.

Avoid using fair in this MU because I feel like I'm always getting punished for using it. In alot of MU's, it is safe on shield but it isn't in this one, so don't try it.

Grab: Everyone is scared of LB Cloud, and shiek is no exception. Use grab alot and condition her to you using grab. When you've done this 3-4 times in a row is usually the best time to bite the bullet and go for that LB CS.

Bair: It's Cloud's safest move on block but if spamed, the Shiek can perfect shield and punish.

Uair: great when Cloud in the advantage, not so much in the neutral. Especially with the uair nerf, the shield stun has been nerfed, so expect to get punished if you use this in the neutral vs Shiek.

Jab: At frame 4, it's out quickest move and oh boy is it nice to have. There will be alot of instances where you barely have the frame advantage on Shiek (like you landed on the ground slightly before her while she is in front of you) and this is usually the only move quick enough to catch her. Make sure to take advantage when reversed jab will hit.

CH OOS: Can be good if the Shiek puts an unsafe aerial on shield. Good for Shieks that are still trying to space with fair despite the nerf though smart Shieks would be basing their neutral around grabs.

So yea, in short, Nair, Bair, Uair, dtilt, Jab, and LB CS will be the main things to use vs shiek.

Charge your limit, but be able to react out of limit if the shiek runs at you.

I want to look more into this MU as this I still believe, will be our hardest MU. It might be just circumstantial, but Mr. R did pretty well vs Komo in battle field. I tend to have better success on Final Destination. The slightly wider stage gives me more room to be tossed around before Cloud is off stage, and Shiek doesn't have a platform to jump off of, in order edge guard Cloud when recovering from above.

Ideas that I want to try out are recovering from above with CH, positioning FT where bouncing fish will end for a hard punish, using BB in the neutral.


I'm not the best, but here's a video of me fighting the 3rd/4th best Shiek in Florida. Mind you that I really don't have much Shiek experience, and I'm just starting to go to Smash tournaments on the regular:

https://www.twitch.tv/arcadeodyssey/v/55248243

(I'm the guy with the beard lol).

I think I approach to often from the air, and should stay grounded but idk. Any input to the MU, or my gameplay is appreciated.
 
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DJ Casca

Smash Cadet
Joined
Sep 9, 2015
Messages
67
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Knoxville, TN
Is there any info or tricks with the :4samus: MU? In my opinion, the buffs helped an already tricky character to fight and the nerfs on our end somewhat make it harder. This is a character with a shield breaker setup, as well as amazing OOS game only solidified by a great projectile game, an amazing recovery, and even greater edge guarding tools.:4cloud: is combo food to :4samus:'s aerials and has an answer to his range with Zair. I am completely lost in regards of what to do against this character.
 
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Stylo Ren

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Feb 4, 2016
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61
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Edwardsville IL
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Is there any info or tricks with the :4samus: MU? In my opinion, the buffs helped an already tricky character to fight and the nerfs on our end somewhat make it harder. This is a character with a shield breaker setup, as well as amazing OOS game only solidified by a great projectile game, an amazing recovery, and even greater edge guarding tools.:4cloud: is combo food to :4samus:'s aerials and has an answer to his range with Zair. I am completely lost in regards of what to do against this character.
Yes, you still have much better frame data and can get in way harder than she can keep you out. Just play in her face super hard and she loses. You can upsmash her shield for free, do a low lag option or spotdodge, and then punish her for trying to punish you.
 
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