Meta Let the Battles Begin! - Cloud Matchup Thread

[Random4811]

Let's see...

I'd say, Zelda will be having a bit of a hard time with him. She has to have a slight advantage over characters that camp and charge, since she can reflect. Cloud's the only one that has a non-projectile charge, that he can camp with.

The only thing she has over him is that she can edgeguard him, but that applys to pretty much every character Vs. Cloud anyway.

So, I'm guessing Cloud Vs. Zelda is... 70-30? Or 60-40, maybe? Either way, I think its a free win for Cloud.

Zelda wins a matchup? When?

but in all seriousness I think this might be one of Zoldas worst match ups, It is the freest win ever.

Actually, that would be the only recovery option he -always- has. If he's knocked high enough into the air compared to his horizontal, he has the option of recovering down as well(climhazzard downslash ledgesnaps if above stage). Still not safe against villager, but a lot safer than recovering up. And villager still easily has the advantage.

Recovering low enough to bait out bowling ball, and saving your jump can be relatively safe vs. villager. Your recovery will end and send you into free fall before villager can drop a second ball, and as soon as Clim 1 is over, you magnet to the ledge

V.S
This one for Cloud is rather hard. Here's why:

Pros For Cloud:

+Against offstage, Cloud can fairly well spike Villager's Up Recovery with a simple D-Air or F-Air
+Villager is a rather light character so Cloud's punishments means good knockback against Villager.
+Villager's Side B can rather be avoided and punished by a jump and N-Air
+ Villagers D-air or N-air can't defend well of Clouds Up-Air

Cons For Cloud:

-Cloud only has one recovery option: Up. All villager needs to do is camp near a ledge and once you recover, he could easily drop a bowling ball on your head and could kill you around near 50-60%.
-If that 1 second of exposure before you grab the ledge from your recovery is still not there, and if Villager cuts down that tree, prepare for punishment.
-Villager could cancel Cloud's slow projectile with Side B.
-Villager's F-air/B-air is hard for to approach. Not to mention it's a good for gimping Cloud offstage
-Against a Villager, Cloud will most likely need to be the one who approaches, Since Villagers defensive options are good. Even still, it's bad to rush a villager down.
-If you charge up your Limit Break Blade Beam and throw it at him, Villager players just need to tap the B button and now he has your Limit Break Blade Beam. (I don't know how long he can hold it though.)
-Villagers grab could reach about the same as most of Clouds attacks. (But it is still slow)


Anyways, this is all I can think of for now. If you can help me out of this (or if there is something I got wrong) don't be afraid to reply. (Just to keep in note, this is the first time I've done this.)

+Heres the thing, Cloud /doesnt/ have to approach villager. He can sit and charge limit. Lloyd is a joke to any character with a good disjoint, especially cloud. A fair covers his front completely from an oncoming villager. A blade beam or two can beat out Lloyd, and it can be jumped over. Villager still has to manage to get in after Lloyd, which he has a hard ass time doing.

+Limit Beam is not a good option anyway, its only a useful mixup, so why is that even a real con? Thats like saying it changes the face of the G&W MU because G&W can bucket the beam. It doesnt matter. You shouldnt be throwing out limit blade beam that much for villager to be able to pocket it effectively. If you're using it like you should be, it'll be a big surprise, and likely kill offstage. Or it'll stop their getup on ledge, where villager cannot pocket it anyway.

+Villagers fair/bair can be hopped over, and Cloud's fair literally goes right through it into Villager.
I think his nair might actually get rid of it, I dont rightly remember.

+If villager has a tree at ledge, why am I trying to recover into it in the first place? Villager doenst really have reliable low knockback, most of it is vertical/diagonal up. Meaning Cloud can recover high vs. Villager a lot-- which is good for Cloud because Villager cannot effectively punish it.

+Blade beam isnt slow either? Grounded blade beam is relatively fast. aerial blade beam, maybe. But there have been plenty of interactions where I hit villager with the beam as Lloyd comes out, putting him in low hitstun and giving me time to deal with the rocket.

+Cloud can play campy better than villager can, and he can get more reliable kills. Where villager has to rely on gimmicks (the ball, up tilt, the tree) to get effective early kills, Cloud can get a kill at ~30-40 with Finishing Touch, or between 50 and 100 (Character depending) with Limit slash will kill on ledge. Better than that, if villager is being derpy with recovery planking, drop down and Limit Slash towards the stage. Its almost a guaranteed kill. Villager will at the very least get knocked out of balloons and plummet to his death, but will likely get stage spiked. I think its techable, but even if you tech a hit of it, you're likely to get hit again by the long ass hitbox of it.

+His Fsmash and Dsmash are pretty darn good as well, and Limithazzard is actually a pretty good kill option if you hit the first hit, especially if you're already in the air. Limit beam can be used as a mixup if villager normally planks the ledge and fairs, because you'll catch him and either stage spike or kill at mid to high percents.


Cloud gets rewarded much more in the matchup than villager, has a better grab, better options on shield and out of shield, and really the only place Cloud gets beat in the MU is trying to recover when villager has stage control. It can be a bit tense and scary. However, its still manageable. I normally don't lose to Villagers.

 

[Chalice]

How far of a stretch it is to say that Cloud wins a match up if the only disadvantage we can say for that match up is his poor recovery? Cuz that literally can be applied to any character and only IF he gets offstage. It's a given that his recovery is his downfall but if that's the only disadvantage that can be said for a matchup then I'd like to believe that Cloud wins.

In theory

 

[Random4811]

How far of a stretch it is to say that Cloud wins a match up if the only disadvantage we can say for that match up is his poor recovery? Cuz that literally can be applied to any character and only IF he gets offstage. It's a given that his recovery is his downfall but if that's the only disadvantage that can be said for a matchup then I'd like to believe that Cloud wins.

In theory

If Cloud wins in literally every other area, then he wins the MU. Little Mac has good MU's despite his glaring recovery problem. Ours isnt even that bad.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

How do you guys feel about Sheik? I was playing Se501 on Smashladder and used a Limit Climhazzard to KO his Sheik when he went in for the usual up-close game.

 

[Random4811]

How do you guys feel about Sheik? I was playing Se501 on Smashladder and used a Limit Climhazzard to KO his Sheik when he went in for the usual up-close game.

I have no real opinion yet on Shiek. Its a weird matchup but im not sure in what way it goes.

I feel confident in the MU, as Cloud gets infinitely better with rage and Shiek has a hard time killing. Sure she can pressure us off stage really hard, but we can keep her out with our range, and then kill her super early. Its hard to say at this point, I think I need to see more tourney results and play the MU more myself of the MU before I make a conclusive decision.

My main problem with tourney results up to this point is a lot of the tourneys ive seen with Cloud v Shiek have been week 1 or 2 Clouds, and hes not being used to his full potential (or full discovered potential) so I think it remains to be seen. Im sure at Genisis 3 we'll get a good show into the MU.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

What about Luigi? It seems easy enough to keep him off of us with Nair, but he is still one annoying little guy...

 

[Large Dad]

Heres the thing, Cloud /doesnt/ have to approach villager. He can sit and charge limit. Lloyd is a joke to any character with a good disjoint, especially cloud. A fair covers his front completely from an oncoming villager. A blade beam or two can beat out Lloyd, and it can be jumped over. Villager still has to manage to get in after Lloyd, which he has a hard *** time doing.

Limit Beam is not a good option anyway, its only a useful mixup, so why is that even a real con? Thats like saying it changes the face of the G&W MU because G&W can bucket the beam. It doesnt matter. You shouldnt be throwing out limit blade beam that much for villager to be able to pocket it effectively. If you're using it like you should be, it'll be a big surprise, and likely kill offstage. Or it'll stop their getup on ledge, where villager cannot pocket it anyway.

Villagers fair/bair can be hopped over, and Cloud's fair literally goes right through it into Villager.
I think his nair might actually get rid of it, I dont rightly remember.

If villager has a tree at ledge, why am I trying to recover into it in the first place? Villager doenst really have reliable low knockback, most of it is vertical/diagonal up. Meaning Cloud can recover high vs. Villager a lot-- which is good for Cloud because Villager cannot effectively punish it.

Blade beam isnt slow either? Grounded blade beam is relatively fast. aerial blade beam, maybe. But there have been plenty of interactions where I hit villager with the beam as Lloyd comes out, putting him in low hitstun and giving me time to deal with the rocket.

Cloud can play campy better than villager can, and he can get more reliable kills. Where villager has to rely on gimmicks (the ball, up tilt, the tree) to get effective early kills, Cloud can get a kill at ~30-40 with Finishing Touch, or between 50 and 100 (Character depending) with Limit slash will kill on ledge. Better than that, if villager is being derpy with recovery planking, drop down and Limit Slash towards the stage. Its almost a guaranteed kill. Villager will at the very least get knocked out of balloons and plummet to his death, but will likely get stage spiked. I think its techable, but even if you tech a hit of it, you're likely to get hit again by the long *** hitbox of it.
His Fsmash and Dsmash are pretty darn good as well, and Limithazzard is actually a pretty good kill option if you hit the first hit, especially if you're already in the air. Limit beam can be used as a mixup if villager normally planks the ledge and fairs, because you'll catch him and either stage spike or kill at mid to high percents.


Cloud gets rewarded much more in the matchup than villager, has a better grab, better options on shield and out of shield, and really the only place Cloud gets beat in the MU is trying to recover when villager has stage control. It can be a bit tense and scary. However, its still manageable. I normally don't lose to Villagers.

My post just got destroyed... Thanks for taking the time for a counter-argument. I like your ideas for the Cloud V.S Villager match-up.

 

[Random4811]

My post just got destroyed... Thanks for taking the time for a counter-argument. I like your ideas for the Cloud V.S Villager match-up.

Im sorry man, I just try to generate thought an discussion, I don't want there to be incorrect information around (so if anybody thinks that im incorrect, please say something, I'd like to know.)

Its possible that the MU comes out to somewhat even, as Cloud's best kills- especially early on- are his spikes and villager lives those all day. They both have gimping potential on eachother, but Cloud wins the stage game. Villager is going to have a relatively tough time killing Cloud (where in my matches against villagers, my death came at upwards of 130ish normally, and most of my deaths came from mistakes on my parts, like just walking into bowling ball or utilt, both of which are relatively easy to not get hit by)

I personally believe we have a good MU against Villager though. I'd say at least 60:40, but it may even be more than that, say 70:30 or 75:35

At the current moment, I've faced 10-15 different villagers, all at varying skill levels, and some better than me. I've never had a particularly bad time vs. Villager, so that is where my thoughts spur from, I suppose. Its a much easier MU than Marth v Villager, so I may just be overestimating it because its much better than what im used to.

I believe Cloud definitely has advantage, though.

 

[HFlash]

I don't have much Villager MU experience (actually none) but isn't Villager's bowling ball when trying to recover kind of devastating? And at competitive play, 70/30 is pretty much unwinnable. 60/40 is a safer bet especially at this stage of Clouds metagame development.

Also, using Marth as any kind of barometer in this game is just wrong. Cloud does feel alot like and but he is definitely better than . I tried using Smash 4 Marth competitively, but he really needs some adjustments (primarily throw combos and DB fixes). Cloud is just flat out better so he should have a better MU spread across the board.

 

[Random4811]

I don't have much Villager MU experience (actually none) but isn't Villager's bowling ball when trying to recover kind of devastating? And at competitive play, 70/30 is pretty much unwinnable. 60/40 is a safer bet especially at this stage of Clouds metagame development.

Not particularly. If you arent far below the stage and have a jump, you have enough time to air dodge and then up b after the ball has passed. That is if you're below the ledge in this MU at all, which you really shouldnt be. Villager's moves tend to send you more upward, and he doesnt really have a good way of stuffing you from recovering high, as your moves eat through his options. You can pretty much come from high and throw out nair, fair or dair depending on what the villager does. You also have Cross Slash and blade beam to stuff his options even further.

Say you are under stage though, and the ball is coming. If your limit meter is high, move out of the way and charge it. Limithazard your way back onto the stage from the door of death, and Villager is stuck in lag for a bit after ball comes out. Always save your jump when recovering with Cloud and options like ball shouldnt matter. You can up b low so you end up just below the ledge, and you'll magnet to ledge after being sent into freefall.

Im aware that 70:30 is pretty harsh, 60:40 is my safe "yeah I can see that" option. I'd never give Villager much props in this MU though unless some crazy anti-cloud villager play arises. However, with my current experience and everything i've seen of the MU, I think Cloud decisively wins the Villager fight.

My reasons are posted further up.

Also, I used Marth as a comparison because I mained Marth until Cloud came out, so that is really the only frame of reference I had vs. Villager previously

 

[Random4811]

We should really go the way of organized discussion about this, because as of right now this is a mess.

Why don't we talk about one of Cloud's most controversial MU's: ?

Here are my thoughts on it:

Match up overview: Its relatively even. Despite what people think, Falcon does not shred Cloud. I think Falcon has some advantage, but it could be more even than even I think. I'd say its roughly 45:55 or at its worst 40:60 with advantage going to the Cap.

Looking at raw data first:
-Falcon falls faster than us outside of limit mode (not sure about limit mode), and we seem to have roughly the air same speed. Falcon has better run speed, we have better walk speed. Our grab and dash grab data is exactly the same, but we have a better pivot grab than Falcon.

-Our dash dance can make it harder for Falcon to approach, as we can cause him to whiff a grab and then turn around and pivot grab him ourselves, or pivot ftilt.

-Our jab comes out slower than Falcons, and our ftilt comes out at roughly the same time. Our Smashes are generally better than Falcons (especially Usmash and Dsmash), and our tilts aside from ftilt are much quicker.
If it matters, we have more intangibility on our rolls, but by like 2 frames. im not sure how much that would actually affect anything.

-Our throws do roughly the same damage, with dthrow doing more than any of falcons throws, however we don't get any combos out of throw and falcon does.

-Our nair is quicker than any of Falcons aerials, but Falcons nair is much meatier. Our uair and dair are meatier than any aerial he has. Outside of our nair, Falcons aerials start up 1 to 3 frames earlier than ours. However we have significantly more range than him.

Lets look at Cloud in Neutral:

+Cloud has a pretty good projectile. It can stuff Falcons grounded approach.

+Cloud doesn't have to, and shouldn't be approaching. On a flat stage, Cloud can charge limit and wait for Falcon to start his approach, blade beam, and then jump nair to stuff all of Falcons options. On a platformed stage (outside of Smashville, which normally starts off more like what I've already said) Cloud can sit on the starting platform or jump up to a platform, charge limit, and shield when Falcon tries to do anything. Sometimes the Falcon will go for dive, but if he does, its nowhere near as punishing as his grab. You can pretty much land with nair or dair out of dive at 0 and be safe vs Falcon.

+Cloud has significantly more range on every attack, meaning he can safely stuff approaches without getting too close.

+Nair is godlike vs Falcon, keeps him out with good spacing, can combo giving us stage control, low lag, can combo into itself

+Cloud has an amazing dash dance, which can be used for all sorts of mixups and mind games. Notably, we can dash in baiting a grab, then dash out and pivot grab or pivot Ftilt at the same time. You may even be able to get a pivot fsmash.

+Cloud has two good roll catches, blade beam and cross slash

+Moderately good shield pressure with a well spaced Ftilt or even Fsmas

+Godlike Dtilt, slides under Falcons grab and most of his attacks, including Falcon punch and a non tilted ftilt or fsmash. Comes out before Falcons ftilt, and is meatier than a lot of Falcons grounded attacks.

+Very good disjoint on almost all his attacks

+Pretty good jab

+Good dash attack, Dash attack kills, and does a good amount of damage and KB. The disjoint can stuff approaches, and Dash attack weirdly clinks with a lot of attacks in this game.

+Frame 7 up B, Climhazzard has an amazing disjoint and does a good amount of damage. Its a weird option, but it can catch all of falcons approaches, and I believe it can be used OoS

-Has very few safe on shield options, barring ftilt. Leads to getting grabbed OoS

-Slower than Falcon on the ground

-Falcon has a better dash attack

-No throw combos, a throw in neutral may not result in advantage, although it may reset neutral


And lets look at Limit Cloud in Neutral:

+In Limit, Cloud is faster and falls faster, meaning he can keep up with grounded Falcon (he may even outspeed him, im unclear on how fast he gets) and he is in the air for less time when he jumps.

+Becomes faster in the air as well

+Dash dance gets EVEN BETTER

+Dash grab is now a better option

+Pivot options get better

+Almost everything about Cloud's neutral above transitions over, and can be done better/safer due to less air time and better speed.

-He loses limit charge

-Cannot use his specials without losing limit

At a distance:

+Cloud doesnt have to approach, and this is a very good position for him. He can punish approaches, sit in limit charge, shield, and throw out blade beam to stuff approach options/catch rolls. Cloud is at an advantage here

+Cloud has good approach options, a dash dance for mind games, and his neutral game here shines and puts Falcon at a relative disadvantage, because Falcon has to play neutral and also find a way into Cloud's defensive wall.

+Cloud can camp relatively effectively.

Limit Cloud at a distance:

+Although he loses his better camping tools, he still has the tools to keep Falcon out and stuff approaches with nair/fair and dtilt.

+Still has a solid defensive wall

+Better speed=better dash grab/dash attack

+His better dash dance shines at a distance, allowing him to trick up Falcon and respond to anything Falcon throws out.

+Limit blade beam can be used as a mixup to get a high percent kill, or potentially a dash grab

-Cannot camp as well as Regular Cloud

-No projectile game

Mid range:

=At this range, Cloud and Falcon are playing neutral and trying to take advantage.

=Though Falcon's dash attack is faster, Cloud's has a good disjoint leading to a mixed set of interactions where sometimes one wins and sometimes the other wins

+Cloud still has the option to charge limit and respond to approaches with shield or an attack

+Nair stuffs all of Falcon's aerials, and sh nair can stuff Falcon's grounded approaches

+Dtilt goes under most of falcons options, and can set up for uair strings

+utilt and usmash act as pretty good anti-airs

+Limit beam can kill or convert into a shield break here

-Not safe on shield

-Slower aerial startup than falcon barring nair

-Slower jab

-Falcon is faster on the ground which can make it hard to space and often he can get in before our options come out

At Close range:

=Several of your moves, including jab clink with falcons moves. Your jabs clink with eachother.

=At this range, both of your nairs are very good at starting combos or setting up into other options

+Nair has better frame data than all of falcons aerials

+1 utilt turns into several utilts, guarenteed

+Dtilt ducks under a lot of falcons options, clinks with some of falcons options, and sets up into utilt or uair

+utilt can translate into usmash vs falcon, great damage

+Cross slash is amazing here

+Blade Beam can catch rolls

+Amazing pivot grab can catch some of falcons bad options

+ftilt covers a lot of options and clinks with or eats through some of falcons options

+Fsmash beats raptor boost

+Climhazzard can catch anything Falcon throws out

+Limit Slash at high percents converts to a kill here

-Falcons grab is fantastic, and at this close, you're probably getting grabbed unless you can reset to neutral

-This is where Falcon wants to be, and once he is in, he normally stays in and doesn't have a terribly hard time getting back in

-One grab translates to a good combo, leaving you with fair amounts of damage

-Falcon can take complete control of the stage with one grab

In advantage

Cloud can take an advantage in mid or close range with good spacing, and at those ranges should be looking for utilt and uair strings with nair/bair mixups and fair catches or finishers for a spike kill, a good % rack up or even a kill off the side at high percent

Cloud is in advantage at a distance, and at that range should be looking to keep falcon out, keep distance, and charge limit.

+Cloud has uair to catch falcon in the air, and great juggle game with uair/utilt with a great usmash anti air on an airdodge read or dair read, which can convert into a kill

+utilt can combo into usmash vs falcon

+Bair and nair can be used as setups combo starters to convert into a kill

+Cloud can charge limit while in advantage, even if in small incriments, for free and still punish Falcon for whatever he's trying to do- assuming falcon is in the air or at a distance.

+at a stock advantage, Cloud can kill captain falcon offstage for free with upb or a deep fair/dair

+Cloud can maintain stage control relatively well

+In limit, Cloud needs one airdodge or laggy move read to get an early Finishing Touch kill

+Cloud has limit cross slash to kill falcon off of a nair setup or a read

+falling uair is godlike vs falcon, so many options out of it that you can respond to Falcons attempts to regain control with nearly anything

+Fsmash and Dsmash are quite good and can be used on a good read to kill early (fsmash can kill at like 70 on some characters, so it will probably be a kill at like 90-100 on falcon, rage or not)

+Uair kills

-One good grab from falcon immediately puts us at disadvantage

-Falcon has options that can mitigate or end our advantage rather well

-Falcon is a fast faller so he can be harder to kill

In disadvantage:

Cloud is going to have a tough time getting out of Falcons grab setups and juggles, as a bad airdodge or aerial can lead to a death by knee or dair

+Can land vs falcons uairs with dair

+Can get out of strings with Climhazzard

+Can land somewhat effectively with Climhazzard vs an unsuspecting opponent

+Nair and bair can reset to neutral at higher percents especailly

+Dtilt can be used to get out of bad grounded situations

+Cross slash can stall in the air, as can blade beam

+Cross slash can catch some options

+Limit cross slash catches a lot of options and can kill

+If Falcon slips up, Finishing touch can mean death

-Once Falcon is in control, it can be hard for Cloud to reset to neutral or regain control

-Falcons grab keeps him in control very easily and effectively, and avoiding his grab at disadvantage can be especially hard

Cloud recovering:

This is where Cloud is going to have the worst time against Falcon, but its not hopeless nor does it break Cloud in this MU. Your hands may sweat while doing it, but Cloud can safely recover against Falcon

+Cloud can save his jump and stagger his recovery to bait out dair and utilt

+Cloud has a wall jump

+Clouds jump is very good, sending us rather high. In many situations, you can bait out a dair, walljump, jump and recover or even just jump and up b after the dair is out

+When recovering high, Cloud can up b to catch Falcons attempt to punish him

+When recovering equal with the stage, Cloud can snap to the ledge

+If Falcon tries to ledge trump us, up b can lead to a free stock in some situations

+When recovering high, Fair can lead to a kill, and we can land relatively well with dair.

+Cross slash and Blade beam stalling can help us quite a lot.

+Falcons dair and utilt are laggy

+limit up b means we live 9/10 times vs all options

-Utilt and dair can catch our linear recovery at almost any point for an early kill

-We have a very linear recovery

-Falcon can also stage spike with bair for an early kill if there is no tech

-Falcon can get a untechable knee stage spike and banish us to the shadow realm

-Falcon dive can stage spike us for an early kill as well

-Falcon can kill an offstage Cloud at 20%

-If we don't snap, dtilt, tilted ftilt and tilted fsmash can all kill us early

Cloud's edge game:

Cloud has a very good edge game, and against falcon especially, can get some very early kills.

+A ledge trump can convert into a kill at 0% thanks to up b

+Dair can catch falcon dive at any point, so if it doesnt spike it will stage spike

+Falcons recovery options are very linear, although a bit less linear than ours.

+Fair can catch raptor boost

+Offstage nair can stage spike and kill, or gimp

+Dropdown nair is a good option vs falcons recovery, but you have to be careful not to get grabbed

+In stockadvantage, Cloud can just up b falcon out of his recovery for a game ending kill at 0%

+Our disjoint means we can punish falcon deep without going too deep ourselves, fair can punish someone near the blast zone while we're still in range to get back onstage.

+Fair and bair kill and are good options to stuff recoveries

+dtilt on ledge is a fantastic option to catch recoveries, can convert into a kill through uair, fair or bair

+Dair ruins falcons recoveries

+If falcon doenst snap to ledge with Raptor boost, its a free kill

-Falcons recovery can stage spike us

-Falcon snaps to the ledge

-Falcon has a wall jump


Overall, the matchup is fairly even, with Falcons ability to kill us super early giving him some advantage. There are ways around this, but Falcon can then adjust to punish those recovery options, putting us right back to square 1.

On stage, Cloud starts out with advantage thanks to limit charge, and can kill super early on a good read. However, he has a problem with shields and recovering, and is likely going to end up eating a lot of % from grab combos.

Falcon is going to get juggled a lot.

In the end, I think the match is going to go to the better player 9 times out of 10 here, with the other 1 time going to Falcon because of Cloud's problems in this matchup.

Its no where near unwinnable, and often times the match will be pretty even or pretty onesided (in favor of the better player).

 

[WispBae]

Hey there, SOLDIERs!

The Doggy boards are currently discussing this MU and would love your input on it!

Click on the lil cutie to Highwind over to our thread!

 

[VPTurnip]

Im sorry man, I just try to generate thought an discussion, I don't want there to be incorrect information around (so if anybody thinks that im incorrect, please say something, I'd like to know.)

As a former Villager main, I disagree with a couple of your points. The match-up is about slightly in Cloud's favor, in my opinion.
Villager has good defensive options, you also underestimate the camping abilities of Villager. A good Villager is not just spamming Rocket. If you don't dodge or shield in time, 85% of their fairs and bairs (the ones not defended against) should be hitting you. Granted, a lot of people who don't play Villager well can't aim slingshot at all. Ahahaha..
Villager has fantastic options OoS and a really good nair.
They shouldn't be getting hit by smashes too much, as they should be in the air a lot when close to Cloud.
The Villager can also combo Cloud if they get a good read, a lot more easily than Cloud can, doing nice chunks of damage off of him. They also have an easy time landing, especially with spaced turnips.

I agree however that Cloud has good options for Villager. As a bait and punish type character like Zelda is, Cloud can really capitalize on his great smash attacks and aerials with one read, his range is a major problem for the Mayor as well. Cloud's OoS options are also pretty good, and Villager's grab itself is just terrible, long animation and endlag. Enough for Cloud to come up and tilt into a bair, nair or a uair.

So yeah, I'd personally say it's 50/40.

 

[-m0]

As a former Villager main, I disagree with a couple of your points. The match-up is about slightly in Cloud's favor, in my opinion.
Villager has good defensive options, you also underestimate the camping abilities of Villager. A good Villager is not just spamming Rocket. If you don't dodge or shield in time, 85% of their fairs and bairs (the ones not defended against) should be hitting you. Granted, a lot of people who don't play Villager well can't aim slingshot at all. Ahahaha..
Villager has fantastic options OoS and a really good nair.
They shouldn't be getting hit by smashes too much, as they should be in the air a lot when close to Cloud.
The Villager can also combo Cloud if they get a good read, a lot more easily than Cloud can, doing nice chunks of damage off of him. They also have an easy time landing, especially with spaced turnips.

I agree however that Cloud has good options for Villager. As a bait and punish type character like Zelda is, Cloud can really capitalize on his great smash attacks and aerials with one read, his range is a major problem for the Mayor as well. Cloud's OoS options are also pretty good, and Villager's grab itself is just terrible, long animation and endlag. Enough for Cloud to come up and tilt into a bair, nair or a uair.

So yeah, I'd personally say it's 50/40.

Can't we slide under slingshot? Obviously if you use it when you're accompanied by a rocket, we can't. Do you pro villagers always slingshot from behind a rocket? If not, we could force you to do that with fear of the slide. However, I'm not sure if the slide will even hit, considering Villager's in the air. It's still an option. Also I'd like think we can exploit Villy's recovery at least a little (of course, Villager can also gimp cloud well as mentioned above by Random). Nair will consistently semi spike offstage if the Cloud is skilled, and while it's not Brawl MK's dair, it can still be dangerous to recoveries. Obviously we cannot gimp Villager, but if we get him to burn his DJ, then I think we can consistently nair him as he tries to recover. If you go high, we get a free DA/usmash/pivot fsmash/Cross Slash/Finishing Touch. However, I'm not sure if Cloud's able to get back onstage quick enough to nair ad infinitum. The lingering hitbox of dair can also help with gimping Villy (admittedly I doubt this will ever really happen with two skilled players), as the hitbox is wide enough to pop both balloons at once just as the hitbox cedes, putting Villager into helpless.

 

[PyroTakun]

Hello there (former) SOLDIERs, those of us at the Ike boards would like to go over the Cloud MU. Any input would be appreciated.

 

[-m0]

Hello their (former) SOLDIERs, those of us at the Ike boards would like to go over the Cloud MU. Any input would be appreciated.

It's 50:50, just like any other ditto match. Any more questions? I'm here all day.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

...it's not a ditto.

Smooth Criminal

 

[-m0]

...it's not a ditto.

Smooth Criminal

But Cloud is an Ike clone.



Don't worry, I'm writing a whole essay on this MU; it should be up on the Ike boards soon.
EDIT: posted my masterpiece. Whew! That took a while to write.

 

[ita16]

And thoughts on the R.O.B mu, I've played two on anthers ladder and it was really hard to do anything

 

[Rewrite]

I think the Sheik MU needs to be addressed first and foremost since she is the "top" top tier.

 

[-m0]

I think the Sheik MU needs to be addressed first and foremost since she is the "top" top tier.

I agree, I'd like to discuss the Shiek matchup because people seem to go back and forth on it, but aren't we discussing FAlcon and Villager right now?

 

[HFlash]

We were talking about the Falcon MU, and not to simplify the MU too much, but I honestly don't see how falcon gets past our nair. Similar to Shiek's fair, it just shuts down alot of his options but anyways, I'm starting to realize that for certain MUs, particularly ones where we get gimped really easily (like shiek), BF might actually not be the most optimal stage. Perhaps it might be better to play as if we were like little mac and actually go to FD and try our best to control the center of the stage. We do fine vs. Shiek in the neutral and on stage, but it's off stage where we get completely annihilated, so why not just focus on staying center stage?

 

[Random4811]

As a former Villager main, I disagree with a couple of your points. The match-up is about slightly in Cloud's favor, in my opinion.
Villager has good defensive options, you also underestimate the camping abilities of Villager. A good Villager is not just spamming Rocket. If you don't dodge or shield in time, 85% of their fairs and bairs (the ones not defended against) should be hitting you. Granted, a lot of people who don't play Villager well can't aim slingshot at all. Ahahaha..
Villager has fantastic options OoS and a really good nair.
They shouldn't be getting hit by smashes too much, as they should be in the air a lot when close to Cloud.
The Villager can also combo Cloud if they get a good read, a lot more easily than Cloud can, doing nice chunks of damage off of him. They also have an easy time landing, especially with spaced turnips.

I agree however that Cloud has good options for Villager. As a bait and punish type character like Zelda is, Cloud can really capitalize on his great smash attacks and aerials with one read, his range is a major problem for the Mayor as well. Cloud's OoS options are also pretty good, and Villager's grab itself is just terrible, long animation and endlag. Enough for Cloud to come up and tilt into a bair, nair or a uair.

So yeah, I'd personally say it's 50/40.

Well, When I wrote the post I was pretty sure that nair just canceled villager's slingshot projectile and went through it. Im still somewhat confident in that, but I don't rightly remember and am not with my console to test it. Fair also has the same effect, if I remember right.

Also, Cloud's combo game is pretty good, and villager is gonna have a hard time coming down out of the juggles. If they respond with dair, Cloud can just wait it out and punish with anything. If they respond with a jump,Cloud can respond with another uair or a different aerial or a special.

Limit side b can kill villager out of their recovery, and can consistently stage spike villager. It makes lylat particularly dangerous for the villager in this MU.

Villager's ground game is pretty limited, and once Cloud gets in on Villager, I think he's gonna have a hard time staying out of the buster sword's range. Cloud gets easier punishes with much higher reward than the villager does, while maintaining the ability to outcamp villager or approach at any point in the match.

Villager has a relatively hard time sealing a K.O., with his best kill options being relatively laggy and harder to land, meaning Cloud is going to probably be upwards of 120 before his first stock is taken-- unless he gets gimped. Another point I made is that, if Cloud saves his jump until the very end, he can bait out any of villager's gimp options and still recover.

We were talking about the Falcon MU, and not to simplify the MU too much, but I honestly don't see how falcon gets past our nair. Similar to Shiek's fair, it just shuts down alot of his options but anyways, I'm starting to realize that for certain MUs, particularly ones where we get gimped really easily (like shiek), BF might actually not be the most optimal stage. Perhaps it might be better to play as if we were like little mac and actually go to FD and try our best to control the center of the stage. We do fine vs. Shiek in the neutral and on stage, but it's off stage where we get completely annihilated, so why not just focus on staying center stage?

You underestimate Falcon's powers. The man is faster than Shiek, and for looking at the MU we might as well treat him like Sonic. He's going to get in, and we have to work around that and deal with him being in. Nair walling won't keep him out for very long, and his aerial frame data beats our other aerials.

And after getting hit, he can get back in pretty quick. Once Falcon is in, we have a hard time keeping him out.

FD is certainly the worst stage for this MU though, and for Shiek as well. I think Starterville or Lylat is much better suited for those MUs, unless we're talking about a smaller Omega like Midgar. If Shiek doesnt have enough space to do her thing, our sword takes up most of the space in our side and doesnt grant her any real breathing room, meaning we can capatlize on her mistakes easier.

FD though, in the Falcon matchup just means that you're playing a lot more ground game overall with less ability to platform camp (which is where we excel in keeping Falcon out, nair on or in between platforms means Falcon isnt getting anywhere easily, although his command grab is a free in) and Falcon's ground game is pretty close to ours, but he's faster and has a better dash grab.

More ground game vs shiek is a decent trade off if you take her to a smaller omega, but regular FD gives her enough space to effectively needle camp and do whatever she wants honestly.

 

[HFlash]

When talking about FD, I meant vs. Shiek since we can't really kill her off stage but she can easily kill her. And honestly, if she camps with needles, we can just charge limit and fight her by either waiting for an opening for LB side B, or what I think we should do, just save it for recovery. As far as falcon, it's stupidly easy to nair him and kill once he has to commit to his linear recovery. Also, all of our moves in the air come out just about as fast as Falcon's with much bigger range. For example, our nair comes out 2 frames faster, our fair comes out 4 frames slower (but obviously, the knee has piss poor range), bair comes out one frame latter, same with uair, and our dair comes out 5 frames faster. So all and all, our moves again come out about the same speed, and have alot more range. Which forces Falcon to approach from the ground. Honestly as long as you stay mobile, mixing empty SH with SH nair, I don't see Falcon reliably getting it. If you stay scared and stay in shield, he will grab you and of course, that's like 80% of Falcon's neutral.

Frame date source: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...llpSkggN6MfpLfZIiBdGv6xOFk/edit#gid=127531413

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...lpSkggN6MfpLfZIiBdGv6xOFk/edit#gid=1838126286

 

[Random4811]

When talking about FD, I meant vs. Shiek since we can't really kill her off stage but she can easily kill her. And honestly, if she camps with needles, we can just charge limit and fight her by either waiting for an opening for LB side B, or what I think we should do, just save it for recovery. As far as falcon, it's stupidly easy to nair him and kill once he has to commit to his linear recovery. Also, all of our moves in the air come out just about as fast as Falcon's with much bigger range. For example, our nair comes out 2 frames faster, our fair comes out 4 frames slower (but obviously, the knee has piss poor range), bair comes out one frame latter, same with uair, and our dair comes out 5 frames faster. So all and all, our moves again come out about the same speed, and have alot more range. Which forces Falcon to approach from the ground. Honestly as long as you stay mobile, mixing empty SH with SH nair, I don't see Falcon reliably getting it. If you stay scared and stay in shield, he will grab you and of course, that's like 80% of Falcon's neutral.

Frame date source: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...llpSkggN6MfpLfZIiBdGv6xOFk/edit#gid=127531413

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...lpSkggN6MfpLfZIiBdGv6xOFk/edit#gid=1838126286

I know the data
The thing about his bair is that its a great spacing move and it kills

also forcing falcon to commit to the ground isnt a problem for him, as thats what he wants anyway. Dashgrab. You're really underestimating Falcon, though. I dont know how much experiance you have fighting good Falcons, but believe me that SH nair does not keep you out of his mits

 

[FUEGO!]

So you don't immediately throw out a F-tilt after you connect the shNair to stuff those greedy "he'll never see me coming" dash grabs? I think the Falcon's I've played just don't know the match-up, but I was keeping them at sword's length the entire game every time. Honestly feeling like a 55:45 or even 60:40 in Cloud's favor IMO.

 

[Megamang]

You are heavily under estimating villager, especially his camping ability. Take your limit, hes just gonna keep pressuring you. A small fair chain offstage and youre screwed. Nair OOS is gonna punish a lot, his jab is amazing... auto cancelled fair isnt going to be punished by dtilt, and even if it is that isnt much damage.

For limits, beam blade is a huge liability. The others can be punished by bowling ball, which kills almost as early. For confirms, you are gonna have a hard time hitting tiny villager with utilt or uair.

Im not saying he wins, but cloud doesnt beat the best edgeguarder 70/30, no way. No offense, but it seems you misunderstand modern villager. No one is ledge camping any more. Watch some MJG or Ranai to get a better idea.


As for shiek, you probably want more stage, not less, since on stage is your friend and off stage is death.

All omegas are the same size.

I dont mean to attack you here, but i too dislike misinformation

 

[Smooth Criminal]

...I (kinda) agreed with you up until you said it was impossible to tag "tiny Villager" with uair. I think you need to take another look at that move, bud. The hitbox is freaking huge, it autocancels, it stays out forever, it's disjointed, it kills...it's pretty damn dangerous, and it probably doesn't behoove Villager to stick around when Cloud's underneath of him.

As far as who beats who, I can see Villager having an advantage over Cloud in the MU. I don't think it's that drastic though, even with modern sensibilities taken into account.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Megamang]

I know all about clouds ridiculous uair. I didnt say impossible, i said its hard. Its gonna be hard to uair a good villager, on the same principle that landing nair with zss is hard. You gotta use a landing aerial, which hurts your aerial freedom significantly. Now, once you get villy up there with one uair, more are probably gonna follow. Still, airdodge nair/fair/bair makes landing easier than with many characters. Admittedly villagers airspeed is lackluster at best. But starting the juggle should be a struggle.

I agree, and i said it is a toss up on who wins. I just took the tone i used because the guy said 70/30 cloud (or 75/35, not sure if thats better or worse) which is asinine. Dont want any poor cloud mains going around thinking they beat villager that badly.

 

[Random4811]

You are heavily under estimating villager, especially his camping ability. Take your limit, hes just gonna keep pressuring you. A small fair chain offstage and youre screwed. Nair OOS is gonna punish a lot, his jab is amazing... auto cancelled fair isnt going to be punished by dtilt, and even if it is that isnt much damage.

For limits, beam blade is a huge liability. The others can be punished by bowling ball, which kills almost as early. For confirms, you are gonna have a hard time hitting tiny villager with utilt or uair.

Im not saying he wins, but cloud doesnt beat the best edgeguarder 70/30, no way. No offense, but it seems you misunderstand modern villager. No one is ledge camping any more. Watch some MJG or Ranai to get a better idea.


As for shiek, you probably want more stage, not less, since on stage is your friend and off stage is death.

All omegas are the same size.

I dont mean to attack you here, but i too dislike misinformation

I've faced some modern villagers. Most of my MU write up comes from knowledge. Im gonna test some of the stuff I said tonight since Ill have access to a wii u, but Clouds dtilt will punish villagers fair if Cloud is close enough. And regardless of the damage, its a set up into uair. Villager has no landing options against uair. Once he's up there, he is getting juggled and his only options are pretty bad, honestly. He can nair, which means Cloud waits out the nair and punishes, or he can dair, which mean Cloud just waits out the dair and punishes. And the best thing about these, is they can be punished with finishing touch.

As for all omegas being the same size, this is more or less true. However, I just did some testing on my 3DS, took Falcon all the way to the edge of FD and utilted across from ledge to ledge, until utilt stopped moving him. On FD, I got 34/35. On Midgar omega, I got 33/34. I think the biggest factors to the difference are the edges and the camera. The camera makes the stage appear smaller than FD, with a more optimal starting angle. You feel like there is less space, and placebo can take you a long way honestly in mind games.

As for Villagers edgeguarding, yes he has great tools. Best edge-guarder in the game? I dont think so. His options are limited even with the great tools he has, and confined to a number of things. Shiek has the most offstage versitility of anybody in the cast, and the most tools. I'd say hands down she wins in the battle of edgeguards.
Cloud can bait and skirt around villager's edgeguards if he's playing optimally. While in disadvantage at the ledge, its no wehre near impossible for Cloud to get back. And if Cloud can recover high, he can cover most of villager's options with fair or nair, allowing him to land safely.

Villager's camp is good, but it has problems like the rest of his play. He has good tools in most of the fields of play, but his holes are big enough for Cloud to get in and do work. Cloud can literally finishing touch Villager out of his lloyd throw animation before villager can act while lloyd is out.
Fair and bair's range are comparable to the range on the buster sword, and as I said, Im pretty sure his nair and/or fair eats through Villager's fair/bair, canceling the projectile while still having an active hitbox. I will test this tonight, but if anybody can confirm this, that'd be great. Also, Cloud's dtilt literally ignores all of Villager's camp. It causes Lloyd to explode without lloyd hurting Cloud, it skirts under Sh fair/bair, it (might) clink with Fsmash-- I know dash attack does but from memory I can't recollect if dtilt does-- and it ruins villager's spacing, putting Cloud right in Villager's town, and effectively giving Cloud advantage.

Cloud can also camp villager out, forcing the first interaction to fall in villagers hands, because limit charge is scary. Villager's camp becomes much more inadequate with Cloud being faster and heavier. Villagers edgeguarding stops mattering as much, because Cloud can recover from the bottom blast zone on most stages. And Villager's approaches are terrible. Dash attack has a nice disjoint but terrible frame data. un AC'd fair is not optimal, and will get punished anywhere near to cloud.


The bottom line being that Villager can camp cloud out, sure. But Cloud's range makes him a threat regardless. In most intearctions, if Villager is sucessfully keeping Cloud out, he's trading wit Cloud due to the Buster Sword's range. Villager will reach kill percent first. Cloud does more damage over all and kills significantly earlier. Unstale uair is a monster killer, ftilt is super dangerous, bair melts people, fair kills on ledge at higher percents, kills offstage at a pretty good percent, and spikes with the right hitbox. Dair kills relatively well with the spike hitbox, has a monster stage spike if you miss the spike hitbox, and kills at a good percent if you don't stage spike and hit with the other side of the sword.

And thats not factoring in Limit Cloud's kill options or damage output, which are much scarier for villager. Limit Cross Slash is like a free 30-40% and has no lag afterwards. Finishing touch kills at like 30-60% depending on weight, and kills villager on the earlier side of that.

and to comment on something I didnt see you said at first, Uair is much more versitile than you're making it out to be. And airdodging against Cloud is a terrible idea, you'll either end up in finishing touch with limit or getting hit with something regardless thanks to his meaty hitboxes. Uair will catch you out of an airdodge if Cloud is following you correctly. Fair will spike you out of airdodge if timed correctly, and bair will kill you at a pretty good percent if Cloud follows you correctly.

Lets not forget, the MU discussion is assuming both players are playing the characters to their full potential, so saying "a good villager will do X" is ignoring that "a good Cloud will do Y" to combat "X" and overall is not what the point of discussion is. We're assuming both players are "Good" and on an equal skill field. That being said, I consider myself "good" and I've faced a number of villagers of equal or better skill. The matches were always slated in my favor and the I won 6-7 times out of 10 as a rough estimate.

The problems I stated villager has in this MU are problems that I noticed, villager normally ends up at kill percents long before Cloud, and Cloud has a lot of extra credit on villager for the next stock. I was living up to 180% often, and sometimes approaching 200-210% before villager was able to kill me, to the point that I'd almost be killing him at 40-50 with normals.

So you don't immediately throw out a F-tilt after you connect the shNair to stuff those greedy "he'll never see me coming" dash grabs? I think the Falcon's I've played just don't know the match-up, but I was keeping them at sword's length the entire game every time. Honestly feeling like a 55:45 or even 60:40 in Cloud's favor IMO.

While yes, that can work, I'm assuming that the Falcon in this MU discussion is playing to Falcon's full potential. We arent talking For Glory dash grab no matter what and backroll 50 times Falcon. We're talking better than Fatality Falcon (Fatality is great with Falcon but I feel like he's not utilizing him to his full potential yet, similar with Komo an Cloud, and M2k and Cloud), fully optimized play.

If you sh nair to ftilt his approaches he's going to adjust and use a different tactic. He'll bait the ftilt out with something like a dashing shield or another attack, maybe he'll perfect pivot grab instead, or dash pivot grab, or perfect pivot ftilt, or appraoch our Ftilt with a nair.
If you don't see how Falcon can possibly deal with our kit, you arent looking at a good falcon's play. Especially not a good falcon who knows the machup.

For reference, my friend and I were playing last night. I consider him generally a worse player than me. I've taught him a good amount about the game and have been helping his play, but I believe myself to be the better out of us. We play between 1 to 3 times a week on average, with some gaps in between. He went home and labbed the Falcon-Cloud MU, and I have had a good amount of exp in this MU. So I'd say we have pretty good knowledge of the MU between us.
He has an above average I have a good Cloud. His Falcon does not beat my Falcon, and based on my experience with Falcon vs Cloud from both sides, I'd say that my Cloud is a better by a small margin. He doesnt fully utilize Falcon's grab game, opting to use his normals and raw aerials more than down throw-uair combos and strings, holding his falcon back a bit.
Normally when we play, I'll take 5 sets for every 2 sets he takes off of me, and I'll win 6-8 of every 10 matches we have on average.
Yesterday night, we went about even, and he did slightly better than me at times. We played that MU for about ~3-4 hours straight.
The matches were either very close, or completely one sided in either direction.
He had an easier time bopping me (for roughly the same reasons I listed as Cons in my MU writeup) than I did him but I stand by what I said. I think the MU is roughly even with slight advantage to Falcon. He took advantage of what pull Falcon has in the MU well, so even though I am the better player, He was able to even up the odds more.

 

[Megamang]

Your stories about battles with your friend are not gonna convince anyone. Thats the very definition of anecdotal evidence. If you truly believe you are both at a high enough level to truly repreasent the matchup, then post the replays of the game. That is a win win win, we can learn more about the MUs, and possibly give you and your friend tips on how to better approach the MU.

Anyways, i dont play villager in tournament but youre definitely underestimating his ability. You should take your MU discussion to the villager forums, or invite them here, to get a better discussion.

 

[Random4811]

Your stories about battles with your friend are not gonna convince anyone. Thats the very definition of anecdotal evidence. If you truly believe you are both at a high enough level to truly repreasent the matchup, then post the replays of the game. That is a win win win, we can learn more about the MUs, and possibly give you and your friend tips on how to better approach the MU.

Anyways, i dont play villager in tournament but youre definitely underestimating his ability. You should take your MU discussion to the villager forums, or invite them here, to get a better discussion.

I dont have access to my friends replays and weather he posts them or not, i'll post them if he does.

it was a frame of comparison, not meant to be taken as evidence of any sort or meant to sway anybodies opinion.

Villager isnt the MU Im particularly interested in discussing, but I think you're definately overestimating him. By the by, Nair and fair completely ignore Villager's fair and bair, I just tested it.

If the Cloud forums want to discuss it, then by all means. But right now we have no order to this forum, which is sad. We have Fragmented discussion all over the place and no focus

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

How does Cloud do against Meta-Knight? What are the basic things to know about the matchup and how to approach?

I would figure Side B beats out his beloved dash attack. Cloud's aerials cleanly beat out MK's. But like with Ike, the match will likely be grounded and he will do anything (dashgrab DThrow, FThrow, or dash attack) just to launch you into the air and kill you with an early combo.

Unlike Ike, however, I'm wondering how Cloud's Limit Blade Beam into the ledge would work against MK's Up B if he chooses to go low.

 

[Megamang]

Id imagine the change in gravity from getting limit mid combo might throw off the death ladder.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Welp, lost to RDR7 in loser's semis at SDS. He mains Jigglypuff. Didn't think Cloud could ever have problems with Jigglypuff.

Once I have the match, I'll load it to you guys. It's actually the third time I've used Cloud in bracket, but I'm really wondering what I did wrong here.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

Does any1 know how Cloud fares in the Rosalina MU? I saw Mew2king go against dabuz and for what I saw it was even for the most part.

 

[Random4811]

How does Cloud do against Meta-Knight? What are the basic things to know about the matchup and how to approach?

I would figure Side B beats out his beloved dash attack. Cloud's aerials cleanly beat out MK's. But like with Ike, the match will likely be grounded and he will do anything (dashgrab DThrow, FThrow, or dash attack) just to launch you into the air and kill you with an early combo.

Unlike Ike, however, I'm wondering how Cloud's Limit Blade Beam into the ledge would work against MK's Up B if he chooses to go low.

In my opinion, its one of Cloud's worst matches. Its so easy for Cloud to get roofed. You can edgeguard MK a bit with your limit if your clever.

MK v Cloud is the only time ive ever been JV 3'd in my life.

Welp, lost to RDR7 in loser's semis at SDS. He mains Jigglypuff. Didn't think Cloud could ever have problems with Jigglypuff.

Once I have the match, I'll load it to you guys. It's actually the third time I've used Cloud in bracket, but I'm really wondering what I did wrong here.

I don't think Cloud has issues with jiggly, but you have to be careful recovering as her nair literally beats all your recovery options and kills you. The same MK player nearly JV 3'd me with his jigs just because he'd get me off stage and wait for me to try to recover, and then nair.

Does any1 know how Cloud fares in the Rosalina MU? I saw Mew2king go against dabuz and for what I saw it was even for the most part.

Im iffy on it. I've gone from thinking its a awful matchup to thinking its a pretty even matchup, and at times, I can see it as good for Cloud. Its hard to gauge for me as I havent played the MU enough.

However, her edgeguarding options against you are pretty damn good, her uair can carry you wherever she wants and Luma desyncs are incredibly frustrating for Cloud to deal with, although Cloud can bop Luma pretty easily.

Its a weird MU, so Im not sure

 

[-m0]

You are heavily under estimating villager, especially his camping ability. Take your limit, hes just gonna keep pressuring you. A small fair chain offstage and youre screwed. Nair OOS is gonna punish a lot, his jab is amazing... auto cancelled fair isnt going to be punished by dtilt, and even if it is that isnt much damage.

For limits, beam blade is a huge liability. The others can be punished by bowling ball, which kills almost as early. For confirms, you are gonna have a hard time hitting tiny villager with utilt or uair.

I hate when i don't get notifications for stuff lol.
I'm not sure what you're saying here. Dtilt under slingshot will lead into uair often, and put you in a state where we can read your airdodge/catch your landing with DA/pivot fsmash

But that's not what I'm here for. You're saying you can punish Cloud's Limit moves with bowling ball? Not really. LB Cross Slash is interruptable pretty much right after the hitbox cedes. A Limit Climhazzard on your shield will let us drift away and even let us grab ledge if we want. Even if we don't, you'll have to run to catch us and the best punish you'll get is a running usmash. Finishing Touch should only be used on a kill confirm or a hard airdodge/roll read.

As for the Shiek MU, I really don't know. Sure we can get Limit for free if she doesn't approach, but that doesn't exactly force her to approach. I'd love some impressions on our resident top tier, we should learn how to deal with her ASAP.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

In my opinion, its one of Cloud's worst matches. Its so easy for Cloud to get roofed. You can edgeguard MK a bit with your limit if your clever.

MK v Cloud is the only time ive ever been JV 3'd in my life.

Think I'll stick with Ike on that one, then.

I don't think Cloud has issues with jiggly, but you have to be careful recovering as her nair literally beats all your recovery options and kills you. The same MK player nearly JV 3'd me with his jigs just because he'd get me off stage and wait for me to try to recover, and then nair.

I've heard it's argued 5/5 because Jiggs makes gimping Cloud easy. Again, I may stick to Ike here.

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

How do you guys feel about Sheik? I was playing Se501 on Smashladder and used a Limit Climhazzard to KO his Sheik when he went in for the usual up-close game.

I've only played a couple Sheiks but the MU seems to be a 45/55 in Sheiks favor. Onstage you can wall out Sheik however you have to be careful because a badly spaced or whiffed attack could potentially place you in a bad position offstage. Needles can be shielded, traded with B move, or jumped over. If Sheik is trying to fair you, you can space a dash attack to punish her whiffs & I've even seen Down-B trade with it. On platform stages, Cloud can camp Sheik pretty well. Cloud has the advantage in killing Sheik, but you def have to be careful not to get edguarded easily. If you can survive & trade with Sheik w/ your aerials when she's pressuring you, Cloud can def win the MU.