Ledge hop run off/New tech

[PaperstSoapCo]

It's done just how it sounds. Ledge hop onto the stage and quickly tap to the side to run back off the stage. I know you must be thinking this is a simple tech where are the applications. Well if you haven't tried this you don't realize the speed and versatility this adds to Ganon's ledge game.

Run off > Double jump > Full DI onto stage
Run off > Double jump > Full DI away from stage
Recorded by LoOshKiN

The initial focus of this tech was to gain a similar effect of a reverse ledge dash on stages like FoD and YS that had crazy ledges. It turned out being very useful tech itself. One of the few applications was double jumping after the run off to a platform dash. This is a little tricky. On YS you need to make sure you press jump while holding forward to get the rolling double jump animation before jumping back to execute it. In BF it's the other way around, press jump while holding back so you get the flip animation (figured out by Synikal). You can do a lot of fancy movement just experiment with different platform dash directions and follow ups.

Run off > Double jump > Platform dash towards stage
Run off > Double jump > Platform dash away from stage
Recorded by LoOshiKiN

It doesn't need to be just for platform dashing, it can be used to edge guard or recover on stage with a bair or other aerial. It's such a loose tech that it will have it's implications in various parts of Ganon's ledge game.

I've honestly had little time testing this out against opponents. Five hours worth of playing PB&J and I think I was conscious about doing it once. Against Fox/Falco's side B it seems to be applicable for counter attacking but feels like the lesser of options when not being on the edge to start with.

Well I hope it is something new for everyone. I haven't seen anyone do this with Ganon so tell me what you guys think and drop a line in the thread if you've got some new uses for it. Linguini read this ****. Magus I know you can toss us some helpful AR facts, let us know if anything comes to mind.

Uses as a counter edge guard.

When you double jump platform dash. If you're on the edge and lets say your opponent is watching your moves you can platform dash behind him and as you fall uair. It is a nasty counter move.

Oh, and one thing to keep in mind. Using you double jump and not landing on the stage can be very bad for you since Ganon will be turned around and you'll be forced to upB back. Something to keep in mind.

Big thanks to LoOshiKiN for posting up the visual aids.

 

[SynikaL]

This **** makes Ganon so much more versatile off the ledge it's not even funny. The only character that seems to shut it down completely is Falco, since he rarely has impetus to be close to the edge when edge-guarding.

This is a Platform Dash setup/Edge-Guard tool/Anti Edge-Guard tool -- it's mad versatile and easy to do.


Don't know why you created a thread. Takes away from the element of surprise when people see it in a video.

-Kimo

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

Don't know why you created a thread. Takes away from the element of surprise when people see it in a video.

-Kimo

Yeah I know but the less time it stays out of the metagame and in private the longer it will take to develop. I was really anxious to see where the community would take this. :uzi:

 

[SynikaL]

That, or you were scared I'd beat you to the punch.

This thread is a farce, everyone -- "I made this!".


-Kimo

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

That, or you were scared I'd beat you to the punch.

This thread is a farce, everyone -- "I made this!".


-Kimo

You should have sent me some vids and it would have stayed on the low. Seriously though get some vids already. I know you get madd games in.

 

[spider_sense]

I just tried it, it seems kinda weird. Is this used solely for edge guarding? lol, I don't know if it's just me, but on Yoshi's and FD if you do this tech and flick up on the c-stick, it almost appears if Ganon's toes go through a part of the level and if the opponent is close enough you could hit them. (though it seems harder to do on Battle Field) Don't worry Tipman, I'll try to record it and send it your way.

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

I just tried it, it seems kinda weird. Is this used solely for edge guarding? lol, I don't know if it's just me, but on Yoshi's and FD if you do this tech and flick up on the c-stick, it almost appears if Ganon's toes go through a part of the level and if the opponent is close enough you could hit them. (though it seems harder to do on Battle Field) Don't worry Tipman, I'll try to record it and send it your way.

If you can cool. I'll post it on the first post to give people an idea on what it looks like. This thread has a lot of views and no replies so the vid might help. Hit me up on AIM when you're recording.

 

[Renth]

what i got out of it, while edgeguarding when you're on the ledge. Ledgehop onto the stage then immediately run off and u air?

 

[spider_sense]

what i got out of it, while edgeguarding when you're on the ledge. Ledgehop onto the stage then immediately run off and u air?

Well I don't think you HAVE to up-air, because I remember Synikal telling me that it's a tech that offers alot of variety. The up-air just what I did. I GUESS down-b wizard foot could be applicable, but it'd have to be solely used as a finisher of the match.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

GO TO BED ****IT!

jeez man, :D

 

[SynikaL]

Like I said, Tom, you need a vid. Smash players have never seemed to latch onto things without seeing it applied in a tournament match vid.

The thing that makes this combination of actions unique from other characters in the game, is that Ganon's Ledge Hop is so small, there's almost no lag when he hits the stage because he lands immediately.

Look, try this people: Go to Yoshi's story and grab the ledge. Imagine you're being edgeguarded. You can Ledge Cancel, Run Off, Double Jump (The moment your feet leave the stage) Platform Dash Backwards onto one of the lower platforms. You'll be facing forward where you can perform a F Air off the ledge on an unsuspecting opponent -- something Reverse Ledge Dash could not accomplish and looks extremely fast and absolutely crazy when pulled off properly.

Imagine you're edge-guarding Samus. You're hanging on the ledge. Instead of waiting for her Grapple the stage, when she gets close, you Ledge Cancel, Run Off and Up Air her for an interception and still have your jump -- you can be even more creative than that. This works in particular if she's trying to hug the wall on say, FD, with her Up B. Easy way to hit her with the back end of Up Air.

Again, imagine Marth is edgeguarding and you're hanging on the ledge. Marth is just out of range of ledge cancel Up Air. Ledge Cancel, Run Off, Back Flip to Bair -- this happens so fast, it's unlikely players will catch onto it until everyone starts doing it and they look for it (it looks so fast, they won't even know what you did unless you explain it to them). Even worse for him if he tries F. Smash.

You can also Ledge Cancel, Run Off, to Waveland Backwards, if a character hasn't had a chance to setup their edgeguard.

IMO, this renders Reverse Ledge Dash obsolete (Tommy doesn't seem to think so). I know no one did it, but it was a nice surprise if you could pull it off consistently since people never got used to it. Even still, it was super limited in its potential.

This is way easier, more consistent and versatile.

-Kimo

 

[CluelessBTD]

I don't see how anybody does not understand this. It means exactly what he said and it is flexible so that you can do whatever you want with it.

 

[RestInPeace]

I'll start using this in my game. Its amazing.

People might not understand this because of its simplicity. Running off the stage confused me at first because it sounded silly.

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

I don't see how anybody does not understand this. It means exactly what he said and it is flexible so that you can do whatever you want with it.

That's basically it. It's flexibility was what I was getting to. The platform dash was just some of the directions you could take this.

Syn no way does this make reverse ledge dash obsolete. Only thing that does is the players ability to be consistent with that tech. Personally I like and use reverse ledge dash a lot more.

Something cool to note is if C.Falcon does a down smash you can do this tech and jump behind him and land a fair without getting touched. I was practicing my techs with a lvl1 Falcon who ended up doing a dsmash. What's notable about this is how elusive he can be with the air he gets. He should be able to dodge a fsmash this way from spaces but I'm just amusing.

 

[SynikaL]

Tommy, the tech itself is limited, regardless of execution consistency. Maybe we'll have to agree to disagree, but I've found myself hardly doing RLD since I've started doing this, and I don't have a problem doing that tech (okay, lies, I do now, since I hardly do it anymore).

I'm no Ganon main, though (I have been playing him pretty seriously lately, however).

The fact that it puts his back towards the ledge and is faster makes it so much more versatile, I can generally accomplish many things I could only do with RLD, with this, and then some.

-Kimo

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

Tommy, the tech itself is limited, regardless of execution consistency. Maybe we'll have to agree to disagree, but I've found myself hardly doing RLD since I've started doing this, and I don't have a problem doing that tech (okay, lies, I do now, since I hardly do it anymore).

I'm no Ganon main, though (I have been playing him pretty seriously lately, however).

The fact that it puts his back towards the ledge and is faster makes it so much more versatile, I can generally accomplish many things I could only do with RLD, with this, and then some.

-Kimo

Trust me, RLD is better and it is executed just as fast so I don't know what you're talking about when you say the run off is faster. These are two different techs. Even though they're similar I don't consider those two techs to be applicable in many of the same situations. They're both good but I find RLD has more opportunities to shine. Once the surprise factor wears on this tech you'll need to gain that back by switching up your ledge game which isn't tough at this point in Ganon's metagame but, when RLD has it's surprise factor gone you can at least get a hold of the edge again or ledge dash after one of two aerials. But you already know and I've said it in the first post. This is a tech I'm more conscious about on stages like FoD and YS.

 

[SynikaL]

You're going to have to provide frame data if you want me to believe it's as fast. RLD requires Ganon's entire frame to be well onstage for the WD to be successful -- the run-off doesn't.

How successful have you been with platform dashes out of RLD?


-Kye

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

How successful have you been with platform dashes out of RLD?

In the end RLD allows you to grab the edge again, run offs don't. Once you choose to run off chances are you're ending your ledge game and transitioning to something else. No use in arguing though. Those two techs are good but they are situational unless you start crossing out simpler options just to land the flashy tech. IMO Ganon's ability to chose flash over simplicity can really hurt his game when people get carried away.

 

[SynikaL]

This definitely isn't about flash over simplicity nor how to approach Ganon, generally. I wouldn't be the person to argue with you over such things.

The question wasn't rhetorical.

Get on AIM.

-Kimo

 

[RestInPeace]

RLD is the LD but backwards, right? As in drop from edge, use your double jump, and instead of LDing towards the stage regularly, you would do it the opposite way. Correct?

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

Yeah RIP. Some stages are more difficult to preform that tech on then others. Try to do it on Brinstar then on FoD to get an idea on why and by how much.

 

[RestInPeace]

I've done the DJ -> Run off -> DJ -> Platform Dash -> Aerial thing on YS. I've only been able to do this on YS so far. Ganon moves so fast when doing this....

I was playing a Marth today, and I tried this out. Reaction time for the opponent is definitely not fast enough, because he tried to FSmash me when he saw me Ledge Hop onto the stage. I ran off, getting away from the FSmash, DJ into a Bair. In this case, would it be possible that I can still platform dash and Fair behind him before he can move?

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

I don't think you'd get away with a fair but Uair sounds like it would work. Bair is probably the best option in that situation.

RIP have you tried to Platform dash back towards the ledge? I had some ideas I wanted to test out but I won't be playing anyone for a week. Dashing back sounds contradictory to why you would execute the tech in the first place but it could be a nice counter to punish an opponent ready to intercept you during the platform dash.

There might be some other stuff that go hand and hand with the run offs. I'll try posting vids if I get a chance in the next two weeks.

 

[RestInPeace]

I've RLD before, but I can't do it consistently. I don't know why, because I can get the LD consistently. I'm probably just doing it slowly.

Question: Can you RLD -> DJ -> Platform Dash like the run-off tech? If you can, what which tech would be faster?

 

[ArcNatural]

I really like this thread, there needs to be videos describing these methods on the first page soon. Make this happen guys (or get Magus to do it).

I also imagine perfecting the soft landing with Ganon on the ledge is also really good. If you guys haven't played around with that (I'm sure you have though).

 

[SynikaL]

Tommy, I just saw what you did there.... You're an ***-hole.



-kimo

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

I've RLD before, but I can't do it consistently. I don't know why, because I can get the LD consistently. I'm probably just doing it slowly.

Question: Can you RLD -> DJ -> Platform Dash like the run-off tech? If you can, what which tech would be faster?

You can. In YS is the easiest. That's compared to the other levels but all possible levels are madd hard. I wouldn't put much emphasis in learning it. A lot of hard work for a very situational tech. The run off tech is best.

Also the problem you're having with RLD isn't because you're doing it to slow, you might be doing it to fast. When you do RLD make sure you are hold forward all the way through the movement after you ledge hop. Then once you "see" Ganon is on top of the lip of the stage press back and WD. Unlike a regular LD Ganon needs to be on top of the edge to execute the RLD. On a regular LD since you're air dodging towards the stage anyways all you really need is to be leveled with the stage before you air dodge to get the WD but if Ganon isn't on top of the stage when when he RLD he will just air dodge off. RLD is also very stage dependent. The easier it is to get on a stages ledge, the easier it is to preform it on that stage. Hope that made sense.

I would put vids up if I had a VCR and a capture card. I'll be getting em soon but toss me links if anyone else wants to upload em.

Kye what are you talking about?

-Tibberz

 

[spider_sense]

haha every time I come do this tech, I can't help but feel worried about being edge guarded by a shine or spike.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

I'd really like a visual for this tech.

 

[spider_sense]

I'd really like a visual for this tech.

It's weird, but yeah, there should a be a vid. I'll try to get this recorded by the end of the week. I'll send the vids to Tommeh when I'm done, so he can post em. (Get out of here Travis you don't play no Ganon) >=(

 

[DtJ Jungle]

I like to know what you are doing so i can punish it :D

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

I like to know what you are doing so i can punish it :D

Is this ZP Travis? If so lawl at you punishing anything.

 

[Linguini]

Nah it's not zp travis ahahahah

 

[LoOshKiN]

Do you guys want vids of this tech being done in practice, or in a match first and foremost?
I can very easily record me fooling around with this tech by myself and uploading viddies just to show people. I won't smash with someone for a day or two, methinks...

 

[Linguini]

While im looking at this ill drop in a little tech(more of a strat that I like to use to get an edge in a match.)
If you just got off the ledge and feel cornered near it you can use this.

Jump backwards and fair off the stage while fastfalling but just far enough so that you can grab the edge with your second jump. This pretty much only leaves your far hitbox where you once were and if your opponent runs in he's gonna get fisted.
Again,very situational but works pretty well.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

I aint that old school/

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

If you can get vids of it just being executed that'll be fine. Doesn't have to be in a match unless you caught someone good. :uzi:

If you can just get footage of you doing four run off variations. Run off to double jump with full DI off stage, run off with full DI onto the stage, run off to platform dash towards the stage and run off to platform dash away from the stage.

Here is a crude diagram of what I just said.

Mybad ZP Travis. I thought you were hatin'.

Guini that is a sick idea.

 

[Renth]

@ Floridians!

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=7562198#post7562198

 

[Cactuar]

Do the Marth players you play really forward smash whenever they see you try to ledgehop? Just curious...

 

[Linguini]

Nah, only when I play you.