Ledge Guard Discussion for sheik

[iLight]

At first I just wanted to post about one idea I had recently come up with for ledge guarding with sheik in a new way, but then I thought about it and decided we should come up with all the current metagame ledge guards for sheik and combine them, while also looking for new ways to ledge guard.

Feel free to start discussing I'll add stuff as it comes.



New Techniques/Strategies to Discuss:

So I was messing around with stuff as I usually do and came up with this new ledge guard that I will be trying out in the next few days. I will up load videos of it as soon as I have it down and working, but I wanted to see what you guys thought of it first.


Accelerated Chase Technique:

Run towards the ledge
B-stick forward and start charging sheiks needles as you get to the ledge
Cancel Needles
Jump Fair
Tether back to the ledge
Ledge Hop
Turn around throw needles down
Proceed with normal ledge guard


Foot Stooling:
How many people have ever gone for foot stool kills with sheik? I think this could be a very viable killing strategy.



Metagame Techniques:

Reverse Fair:

and probablly the best thing since sliced bair... Reverse Fair. if you hit with the beging of sheiks fair it hits the opponent behind you, but still at that sexy low angle we all know and love. it's a good alternative to bair with can be DIed very very high and tends to only help people with good horizontal recoveries.
.

not neccesarily a metagame technique, but who sais it shouldn't become one?



Fair Guard:

For lower percent gimps fair only. Bair and nair will probably help your opponent get back if they can DI.

the concept is to do a fair then follow with another if you have the option to or simply recover back to the stage with a tether or upB.




Needles:

Full hop needles also play a big role if the opponent is coming from below as they can go through upBs and generally mess with your opponent while trying to recover. Obviously not a combo, but they can set up for fairs after you hit with needles. Grounded needles work too if they are above the stage in front of you.

Nair/Bair to finish them off:

Nair and bair come into play when they can actually kill or push the opponent far enough that they can't upB back. Nair has more knockback iirc so it should be your primary tool, but if you can't hit with it I'd say bair is more reliable. Used the same way as fair more or less.

This also works really well if you just wait for the person to try to stand on stage then nail them with a sweet spot bair or nair. Kills around 130 or so if fresh for either move. Depending on the character




Speed Hug:

Just run off and tether the edge immediately.Then grab the edge to get the invincibility when you need it. No need to get fancy if they're too far out to do anything, but grab the edge.

Speed Hugging is running off and fast falling while DIing back towards the stage at the same time, causing you to grab the ledge instantly, gives significantly more frames of invincibility than the tech mentioned above. However the use the one of above if your already off the stage and still wish to achieve the same effect




Chain Guard:

Shorthop chain leaving some of the chain over the edge or chainguarding. Just wiggle it around to mess with certain character's upBs. I know this only works well on some upBs, but I don't see why it doesn't work well on all upBs; its not like chain clanks or gets outprioritized.

Planking as they recover:

(before I start... let me just say that planking is a *****)

You can fall, jump, charge a few needle's, cancel it and grab the ledge. You at least get a few needles that way.

You can also just speed hug to the ledge then drop retether with chain to gain more invincibility frames.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Hmmmm... I find that it is hard to do real quick in a match. So I like it.

If any help I will throw in my planking game idea's.
(before I start... let me just say that planking is a *****)

You can fall, jump, charge a few needle's, cancel it and grab the ledge. You at least get a few needles that way.

The best way to plank is using a lot of ledge drops + Fairs then regrabbing and repeating.
It not only scares people but it also is effective at destroying any attempt of them trying to counter.
If all else fails you can do a mid air jump and then hit A to perform nair ASAP.
High priority right there folks.
(Just let yourself fall right back down and regreab the ledge.)

I also found out that when you are doinf the Fairs that you sometimes barely hit the ground. Might I say thether Chain refresher?

If they get afraid to get close just try to touch ground during your Fairs, turn around and NEEDLES! I have gotten really quick at this and they rarely see it coming.

You could take advantage of the lip if you wanted too. (Stalling if they are recovering or baiting a ledge hog). *note* ALMOST NEVER BAIT A LEDGE HOG WITH THIS!!!!!
You can be punished and possibly die if they grab the ledge while you are wall clinging/bouncing. High risk and little reward. So I don't use it even though I am a reckless Sheik.


*get off the ledge combo*
ledge drop> jumping Fair> FF Nair (weak hit)> grab/f-tilt/d-tilt/jab/Fair (I need more testing but I think weak Nair can combo into Fair)
This is not really a combo since they can escape between the Fair and Nair. That said this is rather useful.




Hope I pretty much set in stone what Sheik can do on the ledge.

 

[rathy Aro]

Sheik's ledgeguard game:
For lower percent gimps fair only. Bair and nair will probably help your opponent get back if they can DI. So there's running off stage fair-> fair and jump to regrab or if you're far out jump and tether OR jump and fair again and hope you can still tether or upB. Then ledgedrop and b-reverse needle cancel (or whatever you call this) so you can fair some more and I think this tech does have merit if you truly want to gimp and not just rack damage off stage. Also you can just full or short hop out and fair. Depends on where they are coming from.

Full hop needles also play a big role if the opponent is coming from below as they can go through upBs and generally mess with your opponent while trying to recover. Obviously not a combo, but they can set up for fairs after you hit with needles. Grounded needles work too if they are abpve the stage in front of you.

Nair and bair come into play when they can actually kill or push the opponent far enough that they can't upB back. Nair has more knockback iirc so it should be your primary tool, but if you can't hit with it I'd say bair is more reliable. Used the same way as fair more or less.

Just run off and tether the edge immediately.Then grab the edge to get the invincibility when you need it. No need to get fancy if they're too far out to do anything, but grab the edge.

Shorthop chain leaving some of the chain over the edge or chainguarding. Just wiggle it around to mess with certain character's upBs. I know this only works well on some upBs, but I don't see why it doesn't work well on all upBs; its not like chain clanks or gets outprioritized.

@Light: I'd like to see this in action, because I'm not sure if I'm visualizing it correctly. Until I have it clear in my mind I won't comment.

As for footstooling, I always imagined it could be used like fox's shine spike in melee. Considering sheik's fall speed and the execution its basically the same concept. Still, it seems pretty situational that footstooling would be a better option than traditional edgeguarding. If they are directly below the stage seems like a good idea. What did you have in mind, Light?

 

[sniperworm]

I'm not sure how effective footstools would be on their own simply because they'll only send people into that helpless state if they aren't trying to do an attack. In my experience, people generally try to hit you, airdodge, or use their recovery through you when you go after them offstage.

I don't know whether footstools go through airdodges (which would make them awesome for killing), so for now I'd say it's not too effective (I've only landed footstool kills by doing them after I baited an airdodge).

However, I'm sure you already know all of this, so I'm assuming you had some sort of setup in mind for the footstools. So I'll reserve my final judgment until you reveal what this is.

As far as your ledge guarding technique, it looks promising. I'm not a big fan of pre-planned edgeguards like this (I like to improvise), but that might be why I don't get many gimps. I look forward to seeing what comes from this thread (seeing as my offstage game is the weakest part of my Sheik, I have much to learn).

 

[Crossjeremiah]

i dont know what to say about this one. tether canceling is the best option though. for a mindgame double tether cancel (crossing xD)


i like the accelerated chasing what light is talking about. very smart and well played. doing a off edge vanish if they try to recover is very smart adding to the accelerated chase tech. which would be more effective than the needles. thats if they are close.

 

[<π]

I'm not sure how effective footstools would be on their own simply because they'll only send people into that helpless state if they aren't trying to do an attack. In my experience, people generally try to hit you, airdodge, or use their recovery through you when you go after them offstage.

Actually you can bait a lot of people into recovering lower, and once they reach the point where they lack strong options anymore you told stool them. It's not easy as pie, but it is very plausible if your opponents let themselves fall into that situation. most characters have aerials that are too slow to use defensively off stage, espeacially when too close to the bottom blast zones to against a lot of characters you don't have to worry about being hit.

Lately I've been getting into this situation, My opponents above me (ftilt, plat, etc.), my fair is decayed well enough so that it can sudo combo into itself in one jump right.

fair -> fair-> double jump -> needle storm (paritally charged) -> fair or nair.

works so well. people have a habit of using to use their jump after I jump so it gimps well, but even if they don't the needles work well to kill forward momentum and altitude and it sets up well for that third fair. most people aren't going to air dodge because you lose way too much altitude, if they do you can end when ever and return to stage with commonsense.

That said, needles in general are a great way to kill jumps and lower altitude in genearal. grounded needle->shNeed or fhNeed can put you in really good situations. since fair and poorly DIed nair throw them right in the way of grounded needles as they come out of hit stun... yeah.

Bair off stage of course is too sexy to ignore, it's speed range and priority are often too much to handle, most people can't react to it with attacks and have to guess when it is coming, thats hard, espeacially when you concider you can bair on reaction to their guesses and always connect (meta included). bair from ledge is so ****, only fault is it's knock back trajectory, it can be DIed really high.

and probablly the best thing since sliced bair... Reverse Fair. if you hit with the beging of sheiks fair it hits the opponent behind you, but still at that sexy low angle we all know and love. it's a good alternative to bair with can be DIed very very high and tends to only help people with good horizontal recoveries.

I wonder if people read through this. I just skimmed through teh others myself, lol. I'll go back and read them now.

 

[iLight]

To clarify what i was talking about in regards to footstooling, its like <3 sais. You can bait a lot of people into going low with their recovery and actually alot of times, sheik can make it the only viable option, in which case footstool here I come.

If you throw grounded needles from the ledge consistently as they recover it begins to condition the person to recover low, so the best setup is something similar. The first part of setting up this style of gimp is to first condition the opponent to recover low, then when you go to ledge guard them dive in fast from above and jump on their head, i've done it a few times in matches, i'll try to get a video to show you what i'm talking about. Its kind of hard to describe the setup because I don't have it down 100% yet, which is why I'd like input you all have it.

 

[Tristan_win]

~doesn't read anything~

A common method of gimping I've been using for low to mid recovers is reading where and when they are going to recover from a said angle and placing a vanish there. I've found this to be very effective toward character up B's that are hard to gimp in a head on fight like marth, mario, toon link and so on.

edit: just to make it more clear I'm not talking about vanish gliding I'm taking about running off the stage and before they start to recover start a up B.

 

[Zankoku]

I usually just try to hit people when they're trying to come back to the stage until they either stop trying or make it back because I missed.

 

[<π]

I usually just try to hit people when they're trying to come back to the stage until they either stop trying or make it back because I missed.

I'm going to have to give that a try.

 

[iLight]

i'll add more info about vanish gliding/using vanish as a ledge guarding option later, i'm about to leave work

 

[Dr. Hyde]

I like wall clinging some times just to force people to lag and land on the stage.

BTW Wall clinging on PS1 is great, you are invisible if you don't have a tag pretty much and can surprise some people with it a few times. However don't use it on Peach, Lucas, and Link since they can hit you from above the stage.

I don't have people recover from below too often but that is usually death for them if it happens.

 

[Crossjeremiah]

or run off and needle charge and needle storm while in the air. instead of short hop to needles. this works very well but its risky. if you know the angle your needles go and you get them . its a sure gimp.

 

[saviorslegacy]

If the foe is trying to recover and you don't have any time to use Fair, Bair or Nair there is always Dair.
Dair can be useful when used correctly.

The COORECT way:
full hop> Dair (make sure that when you Dair that the stage is still under you)> hit the jump button as fast as you can so that you will perform it ASAP> Vanish

This is good for situations that you don't have time to use anything else or they are approaching the ledge to the left/right and up. This is safe, will hit every time if you place the attack correctly and you will make it back to the stage and not the ledge. On top of that you can also stage spike with this.

Some say that this is reckless and ********. I say you sjould go try it out before you judge.


The INCOORECT way:
Short hopping is bad and will either result in death or you having to grab the ledge.
Being over the pit when you do it is also a bad idea. You end up to far from the stage.
Doing both jumps and then the Dair is also a bad idea.

 

[Zankoku]

I can only see this working on Wifi because people can't react to you FULL HOPPING when they're UNDER THE STAGE.

 

[rathy Aro]

If the foe is trying to recover and you don't have any time to use Fair, Bair or Nair there is always Dair.
Dair can be useful when used correctly.

The COORECT way:
full hop> Dair (make sure that when you Dair that the stage is still under you)> hit the jump button as fast as you can so that you will perform it ASAP> Vanish

This is good for situations that you don't have time to use anything else or they are approaching the ledge to the left/right and up. This is safe, will hit every time if you place the attack correctly and you will make it back to the stage and not the ledge. On top of that you can also stage spike with this.

Some say that this is reckless and ********. I say you sjould go try it out before you judge.


The INCOORECT way:
Short hopping is bad and will either result in death or you having to grab the ledge.
Being over the pit when you do it is also a bad idea. You end up to far from the stage.
Doing both jumps and then the Dair is also a bad idea.

Main problem is that dair knocks the opponent up and makes it easier for them to recover so that's the main reason why you shouldn't do it. Foot stooling is probably a better option since it potentially gimps, is much safer, and easier to control so it'll work more reliably. I really do try not to count dair out, but its really a bad move (still good when baiting uair/tilt/smash and punishing on occasion).


Wait a minute. Is sheik planking legit? I'm thinking about it in my head and it seems like it could work well. Anyone see and disadvantages in this strategy?

 

[iLight]

sheik planking doesn't really work, because none of her moves really extend over the ledge like say marth's or g&w's. Also when she does her upB to constantly regrab the ledge it does not come out all the way without taking and extraordinary amount of time, which is unsafe when planking since you want to take advantage of the invincibility frames. The drop jump to needle charging is mostly just to confuse your opponent while waiting for them to work their way back towards the stage, while still leaving you in decent ledge guarding position. The only decent form of planking that sheik has involves the chain, which instantly means its not really viable since you can only grab the ledge three times with the chain before having to land.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Wait a minute. Is sheik planking legit? I'm thinking about it in my head and it seems like it could work well. Anyone see and disadvantages in this strategy?

hmmmmmm

Hmmmm... I find that it is hard to do real quick in a match. So I like it.

If any help I will throw in my planking game idea's.
(before I start... let me just say that planking is a *****)

You can fall, jump, charge a few needle's, cancel it and grab the ledge. You at least get a few needles that way.

The best way to plank is using a lot of ledge drops + Fairs then regrabbing and repeating.
It not only scares people but it also is effective at destroying any attempt of them trying to counter.
If all else fails you can do a mid air jump and then hit A to perform nair ASAP.
High priority right there folks.
(Just let yourself fall right back down and regreab the ledge.)

I also found out that when you are doinf the Fairs that you sometimes barely hit the ground. Might I say thether Chain refresher?

If they get afraid to get close just try to touch ground during your Fairs, turn around and NEEDLES! I have gotten really quick at this and they rarely see it coming.

You could take advantage of the lip if you wanted too. (Stalling if they are recovering or baiting a ledge hog). *note* ALMOST NEVER BAIT A LEDGE HOG WITH THIS!!!!!
You can be punished and possibly die if they grab the ledge while you are wall clinging/bouncing. High risk and little reward. So I don't use it even though I am a reckless Sheik.


*get off the ledge combo*
ledge drop> jumping Fair> FF Nair (weak hit)> grab/f-tilt/d-tilt/jab/Fair (I need more testing but I think weak Nair can combo into Fair)
This is not really a combo since they can escape between the Fair and Nair. That said this is rather useful.




Hope I pretty much set in stone what Sheik can do on the ledge.

To Light:

Planiking is unsafe. That is why I try and only plank for like 8 seconds before they catch one and punish. It is also unsafe to plank every time because they catch on to quickly and punish. I try and do it about twice a match. (Figure that is safe.)




BTW guys... what is the safest way to get off the ledge without getting punished?

 

[<π]

with sheik? hope...


sheiks jump on isn't bad you have a lot of options.

 

[saviorslegacy]

I found some new sh*t.
(To know what I am talking about you must know that Sheik auto cancles her Needles when SH like Ganon does with Thunder Kicks.)

You can drop> second jump> Needles (and DI a little bit towards the stage)
You will throw a Needle Storm and land with no lag.
(This works if they are at the second line on FD.)
You can also do the same thing except don't DI to the stage. Basically she will finish the Storm and regrab the ledge.

 

[<π]

I found some new sh*t.
(To know what I am talking about you must know that Sheik auto cancles her Needles when SH like Ganon does with Thunder Kicks.)

You can drop> second jump> Needles (and DI a little bit towards the stage)
You will throw a Needle Storm and land with no lag.
(This works if they are at the second line on FD.)
You can also do the same thing except don't DI to the stage. Basically she will finish the Storm and regrab the ledge.

No, this is known.

 

[legion598]

Bair stage spikes are sexy
B reversed needle glides are uselessly sexy
and Dsmash is good for unsweetspotted recoveries
if u have a space animal anywhere below the stage u can fully **** them with Fair without retaliation
DACUS will punish ledge wake ups sometimes from a distance (not all the time of course)