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Kuja's (In)Complete Guide to Making Sonic an annoying ___!

J.L

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 25, 2006
Messages
515
Location
Toronto, Ontario
Sonic seems to be played a lot at FD which is the type of stage that gives him the most mobility. What if Sonic was to play on other stages that are more restricting like platforms and such? Tactics like his jump to upB to lagless dair might not be as useful.

If possible, could we get some updated videos against human players implementing these revised tactics? hopefully some from Kuja, Lucky or any others who may own the game.

Thanks for making this thread, it has put brought back hope for Sonic.
 

pyrotek7x7

Smash Ace
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Aug 16, 2005
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541
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USA
The US version isn't even out yet and we already have an excellent guide.

Good job! ^.^
 

RedrappeR

Smash Journeyman
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Jan 20, 2008
Messages
294
So InterimofZeal... I was scrounging around youtube this morning, first time I've done in a while since Brawl videos were looking unprogressive to me... and I saw this.

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=R1msF_iZ5LA

If that's actually you playing, you should be giving us a lot of us tips. I think Kuja should post this in the topic. It shows some excellent pressure game. He lets up from time to time, but when he pulls it back on, it's excellent. He loses, yes... but his pressure game is still phenominal, and it shows a lot of potential.

Great job Izzy. Just thought I'd post that.
 

da K.I.D.

Smash Hero
Joined
Aug 22, 2006
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that guy shows lots of patience in choosing his attks. that is going to be key.

it kinda reminds me of my doc mario game i will be on the lookout for similarities
 

TheMagicalKuja

Smash Champion
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I'm not telling you psychos
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So InterimofZeal... I was scrounging around youtube this morning, first time I've done in a while since Brawl videos were looking unprogressive to me... and I saw this.

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=R1msF_iZ5LA

If that's actually you playing, you should be giving us a lot of us tips. I think Kuja should post this in the topic. It shows some excellent pressure game. He lets up from time to time, but when he pulls it back on, it's excellent. He loses, yes... but his pressure game is still phenominal, and it shows a lot of potential.

Great job Izzy. Just thought I'd post that.
I'd have to agree. Test for tomorrow, but I'll quickly get this up to speed once the worst is over.
 

InterimOfZeal

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 7, 2005
Messages
2,932
Location
Aurora, Colorado
Sonic seems to be played a lot at FD which is the type of stage that gives him the most mobility. What if Sonic was to play on other stages that are more restricting like platforms and such? Tactics like his jump to upB to lagless dair might not be as useful.

If possible, could we get some updated videos against human players implementing these revised tactics? hopefully some from Kuja, Lucky or any others who may own the game.

Thanks for making this thread, it has put brought back hope for Sonic.
I actually think Sonic does better on certain platform stages, due to being able to hide below them with uair and usmash. I know that I'll take DeDeDe and Lucas any time on Battlefield over FD.

I'm thinking right now that his best stage is Corneria. The blast zones for that stage are magnificent for amplifying his killing power.

So InterimofZeal... I was scrounging around youtube this morning, first time I've done in a while since Brawl videos were looking unprogressive to me... and I saw this.

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=R1msF_iZ5LA

If that's actually you playing, you should be giving us a lot of us tips. I think Kuja should post this in the topic. It shows some excellent pressure game. He lets up from time to time, but when he pulls it back on, it's excellent. He loses, yes... but his pressure game is still phenominal, and it shows a lot of potential.

Great job Izzy. Just thought I'd post that.
Self-promotion is always fun. My favourite match so far is actually this one:

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=qTzWHFKdJNI

And yeah, all of it is me playing. As a heads up, I ~may~ change my name to IzzyInfamous, but we'll see. For now, I'll be listed as Izzy and InterimOfZeal on youtube.

I've been discovering quite a few things with Sonic as I've played more and more (no, really?). I don't want to steal the spotlight from Kuja's guide, as I think his may be better overall for discussion and questions, but I have an impression thread up for anyone that would like to know my opinions as they're updated. Still, I think general Sonic discussion should take place here, as my thread is more of a structured FAQ, rather than open discussion. Not saying I won't take advice. Everyone sucks at Brawl right now, whether we want to admit it or not. Some of us just suck less.

One thing I should post now, and will later toss into my thread:

Sonic has a semi-infinite, as do most characters. Get your opponent against a wall, then do his gatling combo. Works to at least 80 on most characters, and can be followed with an attack afterwards. I need to check and see if you can cancel the jabs (get rid of the kick, I mean) and still continue it. If you can, he has a true wall infinite that cannot be DI'ed out of, or teched.
 

J.L

Smash Ace
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Feb 25, 2006
Messages
515
Location
Toronto, Ontario
yes i like that video much more.

You say that the homing b gimp doesnt work as well as it was shown against lvl 9 comps. Can you elaborate a bit more on that? Is it very punishable if your opponent knows its coming? could you possibly mix it up between doing homing b's and fairs off the stage to ledgeguard?

Also what is your more common method of killing ppl? up throw to spring up b, killing them off the top? or b air or fsmash killing them off the side. or homing gimps.. lol
 

InterimOfZeal

Smash Champion
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Most common ways of killing are fsmash, off the stage/springboard bairs, fair gimps, dsmash, and springboard spikes. Seriously, they can DI out of the homing attack's range.

The homing B is REALLY punishable. I don't know why they made it so bad, but seriously, if they see it coming, they can dodge it, 99/100 times.
 

TheMagicalKuja

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I'm not telling you psychos
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Which is why I said use it in midair as a gimp and fake out your foes into thinking something else is coming. I know for a fact now it's a poor offensive move.

I still need more testing on it though. Maybe Friday...
 

da K.I.D.

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lets think about this here... why does the homing attk suck? Well it HAS TO! if it did anything other than minor damage and minor knock back, it would be horribly overused and overpowered. its the same reason that samus's homing missiles sucked so hard. in such a freeform game where your attks have to be so precise, and where its so easy to miss hits, having a move that automatically hit everytime would (and i know i sound like a lot of the losers on these boards now) break the game. i was almost thinking about not playing sonic if he had a homing attack that was to OP'd. but the way they made it works perfectly into the structure of the game, and i (now i sound nothing like the losers on these boards) aplaud the programers for making it the way they did.


wow.... that was a really long rant for some thing so menial. other than that i hope to test my skill against all the sonic mainers including izzy lucky and STHD. online when the big tourneys start


good vids and good luck to everyone else
 

J.L

Smash Ace
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Toronto, Ontario
so is homing b for ledge guard completely useless and should never be attempted? or is it just not abusable and is situational at times. I was really hoping for a new way of killing for SOnic.
 

InterimOfZeal

Smash Champion
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Aurora, Colorado
lets think about this here... why does the homing attk suck? Well it HAS TO! if it did anything other than minor damage and minor knock back, it would be horribly overused and overpowered. its the same reason that samus's homing missiles sucked so hard. in such a freeform game where your attks have to be so precise, and where its so easy to miss hits, having a move that automatically hit everytime would (and i know i sound like a lot of the losers on these boards now) break the game. i was almost thinking about not playing sonic if he had a homing attack that was to OP'd. but the way they made it works perfectly into the structure of the game, and i (now i sound nothing like the losers on these boards) aplaud the programers for making it the way they did.
Knockback and damage for the move are pretty decent. I think it was 8% for the homing attack, but I can't remember, and am too lazy to look. It also sends at some pretty nice angles. The problem is connecting with it. If the move had just a little less lag after it finished, or before, it'd be a LOT more useful, but with the threat of getting owned by a forward smash or random whatever they feel like after, it's kinda intimidating to use. D:

Btw, Samus' homing missiles really didn't suck. Missile cancel into a homing was decent, as was spamming homing against people trying to recover low.

wow.... that was a really long rant for some thing so menial. other than that i hope to test my skill against all the sonic mainers including izzy lucky and STHD. online when the big tourneys start
Makes me feel special. ♥
 

Red Leader

Smash Rookie
Joined
Nov 25, 2007
Messages
9
Reflections on a Blue Blur

I've gotten Brawl time over the last few weeks, Sonic being my new main (I wouldn't be posting here otherwise, now, would I?) out of sheer love of the character. Smash Bros. went from being a game I loved featuring many characters I liked, to being a great game that featured my favourite character of all time. Top tier or low tier, Sonic is my main man.

The instant I picked him I knew there was only one way play to play him: and it's pretty much exactly the way Kuja has described. Playing Sonic correctly in Brawl is all about getting into the Sonic mindset: be proud of your (character's) strengths and never stop moving. Pursue, attack, retreat, be everywhere and keep moving forward. In Brawl, nobody can really match Sonic's speed, so keep on the move and never let anyone have a moment of rest in a Brawl or duel.

On the note that Sonic has trouble in killing foes: yeah. Totally true. He lacks the power in his most useful moves to make that a possibility. But you know what? Who cares. In a Brawl, for myself at least, it's not always about who gets the most kills, but rather who can make it to the end without ever lamely hiding to the side of the stage to preserve their last life. Sonic has the ability to pursue and be a threat to every character in a Brawl, no matter where they are: nobody, in the air or on the ground, is truly able to keep away from Sonic.

If you can't kill an opponent with a powerful attack, at least hit them with a weaker attack that you know they can't outrun. With Sonic's ability to chase guys both off the stage and high up in the air, you can hit with weaker attacks MUCH closer to the boundaries, meaning you can KO people with even a minor amount of knockback.

And don't get the wrong idea, guys: so far, there is really not a single move in Sonic's arsenal that is useless. All his A moves, of course, have their purpose. His B moves, however, can NEVER be called useless. With Sonic's ability to position himself and pursue, you're going to find yourself in so many different situations that you're bound to encounter JUST the right moment to pull off that Spin Charge, or recover against an edge-guarding foe using the Homing Attack. The chances will be there.

So in duels, sure: Sonic still has the speed and attack variety to challenge most other characters, but you'll need to work hard for that win.

In Brawls: Sonic should really think most about pressuring every opponent and never letting them a moment to breathe. Pit flying high in the sky? A simple Spring Jump will bring Sonic up to his level and punish him for staying aloft. A crowd forming on the ground? Blast through them with a Spin Charge and punish the last fellow with a nice rising combo.

And finally, in regard to the tier level of Sonic and his strengths and weaknesses? For such a delicate character to introduce into Smash Bros., they did a bang-up job. If Sonic had any more priority, range or (especially) power in his moves, he would be way too powerful in his own right. I love the little blue guy, but I don't want to be labelled a cheap S.O.B. for playing an unfairly balanced character.

Oh, and for everyone out there who hasn't had the pleasure of playing Sonic in Brawl yet? He's FUN. And in the end, that's all that matters, isn't it?
 

InterimOfZeal

Smash Champion
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It's not hard to see coming, though. D:

Even if you don't see it coming, you'll SEE it coming. The only thing I really like about it is how much freakin' range it has. Seriously, that's when I hit with it most often, is when they don't know that it zooms across the universe.
 

InterimOfZeal

Smash Champion
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I've gotten Brawl time over the last few weeks, Sonic being my new main (I wouldn't be posting here otherwise, now, would I?) out of sheer love of the character. Smash Bros. went from being a game I loved featuring many characters I liked, to being a great game that featured my favourite character of all time. Top tier or low tier, Sonic is my main man.

The instant I picked him I knew there was only one way play to play him: and it's pretty much exactly the way Kuja has described. Playing Sonic correctly in Brawl is all about getting into the Sonic mindset: be proud of your (character's) strengths and never stop moving. Pursue, attack, retreat, be everywhere and keep moving forward. In Brawl, nobody can really match Sonic's speed, so keep on the move and never let anyone have a moment of rest in a Brawl or duel.
Pressure does seem to be his best game. It's odd for me to play this aggressive after maining Peach for so long.

On the note that Sonic has trouble in killing foes: yeah. Totally true. He lacks the power in his most useful moves to make that a possibility. But you know what? Who cares. In a Brawl, for myself at least, it's not always about who gets the most kills, but rather who can make it to the end without ever lamely hiding to the side of the stage to preserve their last life. Sonic has the ability to pursue and be a threat to every character in a Brawl, no matter where they are: nobody, in the air or on the ground, is truly able to keep away from Sonic.
A lot of us "tourney***s" need to be able to kill. A fair fight isn't always what we're aiming for, as a fair match and a good one aren't always the same.

If you can't kill an opponent with a powerful attack, at least hit them with a weaker attack that you know they can't outrun. With Sonic's ability to chase guys both off the stage and high up in the air, you can hit with weaker attacks MUCH closer to the boundaries, meaning you can KO people with even a minor amount of knockback.
Definitely agree with this. Can't KO yet? Why are you spamming fsmash? You should be trying to wrack up a little more damage, seriously. Even a jab is 2% closer to what you need to win.

And don't get the wrong idea, guys: so far, there is really not a single move in Sonic's arsenal that is useless. All his A moves, of course, have their purpose. His B moves, however, can NEVER be called useless. With Sonic's ability to position himself and pursue, you're going to find yourself in so many different situations that you're bound to encounter JUST the right moment to pull off that Spin Charge, or recover against an edge-guarding foe using the Homing Attack. The chances will be there.
None of his attacks are useless. The Homing Attack's problem is it's only slightly less situational than Peach's Bomber in SSBM. D: D: D:

So in duels, sure: Sonic still has the speed and attack variety to challenge most other characters, but you'll need to work hard for that win.

In Brawls: Sonic should really think most about pressuring every opponent and never letting them a moment to breathe. Pit flying high in the sky? A simple Spring Jump will bring Sonic up to his level and punish him for staying aloft. A crowd forming on the ground? Blast through them with a Spin Charge and punish the last fellow with a nice rising combo.

And finally, in regard to the tier level of Sonic and his strengths and weaknesses? For such a delicate character to introduce into Smash Bros., they did a bang-up job. If Sonic had any more priority, range or (especially) power in his moves, he would be way too powerful in his own right. I love the little blue guy, but I don't want to be labelled a cheap S.O.B. for playing an unfairly balanced character.
I'm actually fine with Sonic being so **** hard to play as. It means I won't have to worry about seeing too many Sonic players after the first two or three months of tourney play. Then again, if I make him look too good, CO might have a lot of scrubs playing him. Still, I'm currently the only one in the whole state that plays as him, and that's including a few fairly rabid Sonic fans.

Oh, and for everyone out there who hasn't had the pleasure of playing Sonic in Brawl yet? He's FUN. And in the end, that's all that matters, isn't it?
It really is. If you're winning, but not having fun, then why are you playing? Losing is so much better when you have fun playing, too.
 

InterimOfZeal

Smash Champion
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Hay guize, for those that aren't following my thread currently, I've updated with a few more vids from the same night. New matches should be up by next Monday, showcasing some more stuff I've uncovered, as well as the amazing spindash>dair approach.

Incentive to check out my thread, in the form of a very lulz-worthy match. I'll explain it when I post the Ike match-up.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=VXsdKVtU3nI
 

tw1n

Smash Champion
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Jun 22, 2007
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Albuquerque
Hey Izzy. Long time no see. Glad to see the older brother state has a Sonic Main too. Hope to play you :D

This guide is very well informative. Well done. And I can't wait to read more
 

TheMagicalKuja

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I'm not telling you psychos
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Thanks for everything guys.

Since the guys I play with are relatively equal in level, I haven't fought too many super high level guys who were tops in Melee, so I don't know if my strategies that I suggest in this thread are viable. I'm hoping InterimofZeal can cover that aspect, and when I get my own copy I can better test some strategies.
 

InterimOfZeal

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Which strats do you want me to test? Sorry, I've been bogged down on homework, so I kinda forgot the ideas you guys put into my head with Sonic. XD

Tw1n, you'll love Sonic, seriously. Tell Sinz I'm sorry about CF sucking. D:

Also, go check out my guide, you scrub. ♥
 

TheMagicalKuja

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I have been, man.

So far you've tested the homing gimp. Can you test and see if it's possible to homing attack somebody in the ceiling to their doom? I did it once but I wasn't fighting anyone yet competent in the game, I want to see if it works with a halfway competent player.
 

J.L

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 25, 2006
Messages
515
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Toronto, Ontario
I just had a good dose of playing brawl at a friends house. The homing gimp doesnt work most of the time. It never actually hit them, and they werent even trying to dodge it purposely. Perhaps i timed it wrong, but I can see how the homing gimp doesnt exactly work like it appeared against cpus. The jump up b to lagless dair works really nicely though. Dropping the spring seems like my main gimping move. im using the spring a lot and alot more now. Its hardly punishable if used right, and great for chasing enemies in the air. I hope new strategies come out.
 

tw1n

Smash Champion
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Tw1n, you'll love Sonic, seriously. Tell Sinz I'm sorry about CF sucking. D:

Also, go check out my guide, you scrub. ♥
I will let him know ;D And I have read your guide. That with this is like my new Sonic Bible (ish...) I'm just hoping I get the chance to play it more soon so I can even add more to this guide for Sonic.

Oh and go here http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=142268 Big NM tourny in May... I mean BIG! Hope to see CO there
 

Kyd

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Jun 4, 2007
Messages
359
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Warner Robins, GA
Hay guize, for those that aren't following my thread currently, I've updated with a few more vids from the same night. New matches should be up by next Monday, showcasing some more stuff I've uncovered, as well as the amazing spindash>dair approach.

Incentive to check out my thread, in the form of a very lulz-worthy match. I'll explain it when I post the Ike match-up.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=VXsdKVtU3nI
loving the spring gimps, ill definately be using that tactic
 

Mikezor

Smash Journeyman
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Jan 22, 2006
Messages
433
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Centennial, Colorado
This is Zeal:

I see why pros keep secrets. It kinda makes me sad knowing all I'm working on is going to be used by people that don't have to experience the pain until whatever tactics are discovered. Still, I also like sharing, and communities normally give back, so I'm not too worried yet.

Tw1n, I'll try to go, we'll see though, I'm saving up for a trip.
 

Mikezor

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This is Zeal:

I see why pros keep secrets. It kinda makes me sad knowing all I'm working on is going to be used by people that don't have to experience the pain until whatever tactics are discovered. Still, I also like sharing, and communities normally give back, so I'm not too worried yet.

Tw1n, I'll try to go, we'll see though, I'm saving up for a trip.
 

Badakin

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 13, 2007
Messages
84
Its funny that i found this guide cuz i was playing luck today and he was telling me what an anoing **** he is. But now with this i can be annoying IN STERO. lol i did the side taunt to him and he was like "WTF"?? I owned his mind
 

ReiGun

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 2, 2008
Messages
71
Location
Maryland
This is Zeal:

I see why pros keep secrets. It kinda makes me sad knowing all I'm working on is going to be used by people that don't have to experience the pain until whatever tactics are discovered. Still, I also like sharing, and communities normally give back, so I'm not too worried yet.
Dont worry to much man. Without you, Kuja, and Lucky, I'd be completely lost as to what Sonic is all about.:laugh:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=F0V3-Ky36vQ&feature=related
Guys, check this vid at about :34. I think it shows another possible use for Homing Attack. See how Sonic uses it to fly right over Ganon, avoiding his side B. Maybe this move could be used more for evasion than attacking?
 

TheMagicalKuja

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I'm not telling you psychos
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I played some more today, good god, I suddenly suck hairy balls. I kept fsmashing when I meant to tilt and vice versa. I'm never touching Melee again.

I did manage to connect with a homing attack as an edgeguard for a KO, but only once. I think like Hitaku said in his topic it is REALLY about timing.
 
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