Kotaku Interview with Sakurai - He knows we exist, but we aren't a focus

[Overswarm]

http://kotaku.com/an-in-depth-chat-with-the-genius-behind-super-smash-bro-530744390

"Kotaku: Do you ever talk to the high-level competitive players when you're balancing Smash Bros.?

Sakurai: Mostly I don't incorporate feedback like that. Basically, Smash Bros. is designed to be sort of targeted at the center, intermediate players, and if you think of sort of a skill graph or something where if you're targeting just the peak of that performance level, you're targeting a very small group of people. We wanna avoid a situation where it becomes a game sort of like other competitive fighting games, where it's only apreciated by a very small, passionate group of sort of maniac players. We definitely don't want that sort of situation. It's supposed to be a fun game for a wide variety of people."

 

[Stalking Fury]

Clock them.

 

[jwj442]

Everyone be sure to read the whole interview before you react to this. I think you're making him sound worse by leaving out the rest of the quote (I'm nto saying you're doing it on purpose):

But that's not to say that I don't appreciate very high-level competitive play, the type of very refined competitive gameplay that happens in other fighting games. Personally, I have a lot of experience playing in the arcade scene, and personally came out as a champion of a 100-person battle in arcade Street Fighter II.
Kotaku: Recently?
Sakurai: A long, long time ago. So I don't wanna ignore that there's that type of pleasure to be had from the game.

 

[RomanceDawn]

Everyone better read this. This quote doesn't lay out what he says later on in the interview. Sakurai basically says he wants people to play competitive if they want to and that he hears us and understands. He values that type of play.

So you big whining babies out there, just wait and see what happens, so far so good.

Thank you JW, selective quotes like the original cause lazy head line readers to jump the gun.

 

[Revven]

At least he acknowledges us but apparently he doesn't pay attention to the US scene, I guess.

Sounding more and more like this will be how Smash 64 and Melee were, where he won't actively discourage you from playing it competitively through gameplay restrictions/mechanics and will focus on the core and characters than worrying about how some high level player might break his game.

Eases some of my concerns from the Gamespot article.

 

[Artsy Omni]

I think something that people often don't consider is that some characters, when played at an intermediate level, are pretty well balanced against the rest, but that some characters can be pushed farther than others on a more advanced level.

That's essentially why the tiers exist. Smash characters all play so differently that the limits to their potential vary greatly. Sakurai focuses on making sure that a character's abilities at an intermediate play level lines up with the other characters, but often as a result, the upper thresholds of their potential become wildly misaligned.

It's for this reason that I often find myself beating people up with characters that are usually considered "low tier" by the pros. My friends and I play at a intermediate-to-high level of proficiency, but none of us are pros. Aside from using crazies like Meta-Knight and Diddy, we're pretty much always neck and neck no matter who we play as.

 

[Artsy Omni]

EDIT: accidental post

 

[jwj442]

That's only true to a limited extent. Fox and Marth generally do well in Melee casual or semi-casual play even if their full potential can't be reached, and Pichu is universally considered bad. On the other hand, Link does a lot better with casual players and Jigglypuff is worse.

 

[Maricalistaro]

Spin zone. OP you should post all of what he has to say on the matter. You are going to mislead people and get them riled up for a no good reason.

 

[HeroMystic]

Everyone be sure to read the whole interview before you react to this.

This. The selected quote in the original post doesn't tell the whole story. All Sakurai is really saying is he wants the game to appeal to everyone, which is old news quite frankly.

It's nice that he does acknowledge our existence though.

 

[IhaveSonar]

He does acknowledge the value of competitive play. This is good.

 

[Ulevo]

I think Sakurai is correct in his direction here. Because if you took the approach that a lot of other gaming studios like Arc System Works for BlazBlue and GG, Nether Realm Studios for MK, Capcom for Street Fighter, et cetera, where they capitalize and focus on the top pinnacle of competitive play first as their primary focus, even in a game like Smash, it would eventually alienate some audiences. As competitive as Melee BECAME, I don't think it ever truly did that on its own. But I do believe with an emphasis on high level balance it might start to become that. Sakurai wants to stick the traditional Smash formula, and I agree. As long as there is a high ceiling for players like us to climb while other players enjoy their focus playing the way they enjoy, its fine.

 

[ChozoBoy]

Writing "we" in the title is awfully misleading.

Even here on Smash Boards, most of us are the "center, intermediate players" that he says he is actually focusing on.

Also, if Sakurai is a SF2 fan, maybe we should get some Ken or Chun-Li?

 

[Renji64]

It really seems he wants the skill gap to be gone which is saddening In Melee and n64 once i learned of high level smash I started training and playing players better than me lost alot but it made me good. Brawl i was good went to local tourneys and did well got bored due there wasn't that same feeling. I hope smash 4 can be amazing. Why can't he please casual fans and competitive he did before.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

I'm glad Sakurai wants to target the masses, but the idea that a game having competitive depth somehow precludes casual players from enjoying the same game needs to die.

Also, worth noting:

But that's not to say that I don't appreciate very high-level competitive play, the type of very refined competitive gameplay that happens in other fighting games. Personally, I have a lot of experience playing in the arcade scene, and personally came out as a champion of a 100-person battle in arcade Street Fighter II.

 

[Black Mantis]

One thing I did notice was that he called us maniacs. From an outsider's perspective we are all a tad maniac about Smash Bros. Then again that's with anything in life that people enjoy doing (or take seriously). Most of us here are intermediate level players (top players being people like M2k, Ally, PP) so that statement doesn't cause any severe damage.

 

[JV5Chris]

Kotaku: Do you ever talk to the high-level competitive players when you're balancing Smash Bros.?

Sakurai: Mostly I don't incorporate feedback like that. Basically, Smash Bros. is designed to be sort of targeted at the center, intermediate players, and if you think of sort of a skill graph or something where if you're targeting just the peak of that performance level, you're targeting a very small group of people.

Really pains me to read this part. One of the biggest takeaways I had working on Dance Central 3 and seeing Harmonix's process was the value of feedback and input from all skill levels that make up the breadth of the install base.

I'm not going to say there is necessarily a right or wrong approach, but taking selective feedback is not something I see eye to eye with.

 

[Black Mantis]

Side note Sakurai stated he won a Street Fighter 2 tourney. He probably played a shoto.

 

[[Corn]]

Really pains me to read this part. One of the biggest takeaways I had working on Dance Central 3 and seeing Harmonix's process was the importance of feedback and input from all skill levels.

I'm not going to say there is necessarily a right or wrong approach, but taking selective feedback is not something I see eye to eye with.

Ya, that isnt the most appreciated way to do it.

 

[Vann Accessible]

I agree with Sakurai to some extent, but you know, Smash Bros. is already the most accessible fighting game in existence. It's not like you have to learn complicated button inputs to do special moves that are different for each character.

I personally think Smash Bros should be like chess. Easy to learn, but it takes a lifetime to master.

 

[Dark Phazon]

http://kotaku.com/an-in-depth-chat-with-the-genius-behind-super-smash-bro-530744390

"Kotaku: Do you ever talk to the high-level competitive players when you're balancing Smash Bros.?

Sakurai: Mostly I don't incorporate feedback like that. Basically, Smash Bros. is designed to be sort of targeted at the center, intermediate players, and if you think of sort of a skill graph or something where if you're targeting just the peak of that performance level, you're targeting a very small group of people. We wanna avoid a situation where it becomes a game sort of like other competitive fighting games, where it's only apreciated by a very small, passionate group of sort of maniac players. We definitely don't want that sort of situation. It's supposed to be a fun game for a wide variety of people."

And this is why Melee will forever be the greatest Smash.

 

[phate]

Apparently he cares for the competitive community more than I assumed. The accessible, yet deep games are the best games.

 

[Dark Phazon]

Well..atleast he knows we exist..thats a + right?

 

[Big-Cat]

I agree with Sakurai to some extent, but you know, Smash Bros. is already the most accessible fighting game in existence. It's not like you have to learn complicated button inputs to do special moves that are different for each character.

I personally think Smash Bros should be like chess. Easy to learn, but it takes a lifetime to master.

Because doing Hadouken inputs requires you to do the Raging Demon or Raging Storm inputs.

 

[Mr. Mumbles]

I think something that people often don't consider is that some characters, when played at an intermediate level, are pretty well balanced against the rest, but that some characters can be pushed farther than others on a more advanced level.

That's essentially why the tiers exist. Smash characters all play so differently that the limits to their potential vary greatly. Sakurai focuses on making sure that a character's abilities at an intermediate play level lines up with the other characters, but often as a result, the upper thresholds of their potential become wildly misaligned.

It's for this reason that I often find myself beating people up with characters that are usually considered "low tier" by the pros. My friends and I play at a intermediate-to-high level of proficiency, but none of us are pros. Aside from using crazies like Meta-Knight and Diddy, we're pretty much always neck and neck no matter who we play as.

I think it is understanding this, but not fully understanding this, that leads people to be "anti-teirists." For some reason some people can easily understand that tiers don't matter at their level of play, but struggle with the concept that tiers matter at higher levels of play.

These people like to point to people like Gimpyfish as evidence that tiers don't exist, but Gimpy is the exception not the norm. Him (I think? Sorry I don't know much about Gimpy.) being awesome doesn't mean tiers don't exist.

Whoops! went on a bit of rant there when your post was one I so very much agree with.

 

[GaretHax]

I don't know the most disconcerting quote I can pull from a recent interview is something like "I personally feel that the silent majority prefers brawl over melee." No clear basis in reason or reality there, dude might just be on some serious pain-killers though.

 

[Mr. Mumbles]

I don't know the most disconcerting quote I can pull from a recent interview is something like "I personally feel that the silent majority prefers brawl over melee." No clear basis in reason or reality there, dude might just be on some serious pain-killers though.

To be fair, it is a hard thing to know one way or another. They are sorta by definition, "silent."

 

[GaretHax]

To be fair, it is a hard thing to know one way or another. They are sorta by definition, "silent."

He tries to draw a conclusion from a hypothetical, fabricated from his own personal feelings, then tries to reinforce it with baseless conjecture which can't be proven except via actual data collection from fans (which he previously admitted would almost certainly point towards melee due to the "vocal minority"). In any case it's obvious he doesn't have any real evidence to support his stance, but he builds upon it by making the assumption that his opinions are facts and capable of serving as a foundation for his argument... =/ I don't know things like that drive me nuts and seem somewhat delusional... I guess he could go by sales, but when you take into account raw percentages (IE. the only things that matter in the real world) Brawl failed to outsell Melee per console, though it did overtake Melee in raw numbers. (Which is good)

 

[Hickory]

I don't know the most disconcerting quote I can pull from a recent interview is something like "I personally feel that the silent majority prefers brawl over melee." No clear basis in reason or reality there, dude might just be on some serious pain-killers though.

You don't speak to many casual gamers, do you?

 

[nLiM8d]

You've got to consider that what matters most is how developers value dynamic aspects for consideration. Not that there's one class that they consider more highly than the other or that there isn't a concern for your interests. In regards to developer interests however, its the conventional standard that bears priority in consideration.

I mean are you going to take into account the opinions of certified professionals who are appointed certain tasks or a widely disparate community composed of individuals who of which believe that their opinions are the best individually?

You can complain about it, or you can get hired into the system and hope that your efforts can make the difference.

 

[Mr. Mumbles]

He tries to draw a conclusion from a hypothetical, fabricated from his own personal feelings, then tries to reinforce it with baseless conjecture which can't be proven except via actual data collection from fans (which he previously admitted would almost certainly point towards melee due to the "vocal minority"). In any case it's obvious he doesn't have any real evidence to support his stance, but he builds upon it by making the assumption that his opinions are facts and capable of serving as a foundation for his argument... =/ I don't know things like that drive me nuts and seem somewhat delusional... I guess he could go by sales, but when you take into account raw percentages (IE. the only things that matter in the real world) Brawl failed to outsell Melee per console, though it did overtake Melee in raw numbers. (Which is good)

Being able to draw conclusions based off evidence is wonderful, and I fully recommend it when it can be done. Here, I really don't know how he could have gone about verifying his claim. Yes he does just sort of assert it and then yes he does draw conclusions based off of it, but what else can he do? The trouble is simple random samples are extremely difficult in real life due to things like response bias and non-response bias, and it is near impossible to tell how much said bias effects results.

Ultimately what it comes down to is that Sakurai had to make a choice to believe in the silent majority or to believe the vocal are the majority. In the absence of real evidence there was no clear answer, so he happened to choose something that it sounds like you disagree with... or maybe you just disagree with his reasoning, but there again there isn't a lot he could have done.

As for raw numbers vs percent... neither is a truly fair comparison. Obviously people who don't have the console can't play the game, thus raw numbers are out, but then again those who had a gcn (since fewer people did) were more liable to be loyal Nintendo fans and thus more prone to buying games like Brawl, thus a percentage isn't really fair either.

 

[DakotaBonez]

I'm sick of Overswarm's bulls$#% misleading titles on his threads. How is it that he's always the first to make a thread on these articles!?!
He always puts the game's development in a bad light.

(Also thankyou Overswarm for finding these interviews and keeping the boards interesting)

 

[BentoBox]

You don't speak to many casual gamers, do you?

You don't even need to speak to casual gamers to assert such an opinoin. Casual players are always going to prefer the latest iteration because most changes regarding game mechanics will completely fly over their heads and will in no way dampen their enjoyment of the game.

This is exactly like comparing SC2 to SC:BW's merits as a competitive platform. A greater influx of players is always going to mean a greater casual userbase. That alone can't be used as an argument to support that a game is better.

Fact is, there was no need to alienate one part of the community for the inclusion of the other, when both sides coexisted just fine before.

 

[El Duderino]

I'm sick of Overswarm's bulls$#% misleading titles on his threads. How is it that he's always the first to make a thread on these articles!?!
He always puts the game's development in a bad light.

He's not entirely off point here.

In this interview you have Sakurai openly admitting he doesn't care to incorporate balance feedback from high level players. Given balance is one the most common criticisms of Brawl by both competitive and casual players, it makes no sense to ignore those capable of quickly identifying the potential issues. It's fine and dandy that Sakurai is considering intermediate players first, but realistically upper level imbalances have a way of permeating down the ladder to effect everyone, especially so in online gaming.

I'm sure people in this thread will downplay the blunder here by pointing to his appreciation of competitive Street Fighter II and talk of accommodating the opinions of advanced players. So what? Actions, or in this case failure to act, speak louder than words.

Quite frankly, I find the way Sakurai addresses the Smash audience and closes off communication with us to be terribly outdated. One look across the pond at the community outreach going on now with Killer Instinct puts it into perspective. Wish he and the Smash 4 team would get with the times.

 

[Ray Robo]

If Sakurai wants this game to be great for everyone then he should focus on making it for everyone. Rather than just the "intermediate" players, taking feedback from all types of players would make the game better for everyone which is what he wants, but I don't think he understands how much the competitive scene can change the game in terms of depth.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Oh, come on. You all know exactly what would happen if he came to us for input. Most of us have nothing but contempt for casuals and games that cater, even in part, to them. If he asked us for input, we'd only give advice that made the game fun for us, he'd ignore most of what we said that wasn't painfully obvious (like don make a Dsmash do 50%), he'd remove the glitches we found during play testing, and then we'd ***** about how he didn't listen to us enough anyway. Why would he want to do that to himself? If given the choice *I* wouldn't deal with us.

 

[Mr. Mumbles]

He's not entirely off point here.

In this interview you have Sakurai openly admitting he doesn't care to incorporate balance feedback from high level players. Given balance is one the most common criticisms of Brawl by both competitive and casual players, it makes no sense to ignore those capable of quickly identifying the potential issues. It's fine and dandy that Sakurai is considering intermediate players first, but realistically upper level imbalances have a way of permeating down the ladder to effect everyone, especially so in online gaming.

I'm sure people in this thread will downplay the blunder here by pointing to his appreciation of competitive Street Fighter II and talk of accommodating the opinions of advanced players. So what? Actions, or in this case failure to act, speak louder than words.

Quite frankly, I find the way Sakurai addresses the Smash audience and closes off communication with us to be terribly outdated. One look across the pond at the community outreach going on now with Killer Instinct puts it into perspective. Wish he and the Smash 4 team would get with the times.

Honestly I feel like the best possible response to this has already been given. See below:

You've got to consider that what matters most is how developers value dynamic aspects for consideration. Not that there's one class that they consider more highly than the other or that there isn't a concern for your interests. In regards to developer interests however, its the conventional standard that bears priority in consideration.

I mean are you going to take into account the opinions of certified professionals who are appointed certain tasks or a widely disparate community composed of individuals who of which believe that their opinions are the best individually?

You can complain about it, or you can get hired into the system and hope that your efforts can make the difference.

When saying why he didn't take feed back from high level players I know this isn't what he said, but it is hard to think on your feet in an interview, and I think Sakurai really wants to emphasize that while this game is going in a more competitive direction then the previous smash, he still hasn't forgotten about casual players.

As for actions speaking louder than words, he is making this game faster paced, and seemingly more competitive in general. That is his action. Indeed it does speak louder than any of these words. Honestly, we shouldn't need this interview to know he hasn't forgotten about competitive players. Why do you think he got rid of tripping?

 

[El Duderino]

If he asked us for input, we'd only give advice that made the game fun for us, he'd ignore most of what we said that wasn't painfully obvious (like don make a Dsmash do 50%), he'd remove the glitches we found during play testing, and then we'd ***** about how he didn't listen to us enough anyway. Why would he want to do that to himself? If given the choice *I* wouldn't deal with us.

The question in the article specifically refers to input on balance. Balance is what I would consider a neutral matter. It is an interest we all share, Sakurai included, unless you're one of those sadistic folks hoping the game falls apart.

Either way, I don't consider any of this a good excuse to not partake in community outreach. Viewing the player base as an obstacle rather than an asset is a very backwards approach, IMHO.

As for actions speaking louder than words, he is making this game faster paced, and seemingly more competitive in general.

Same deal, I'm not referring to the game direction. I'm talking just about seeking input on balance. There is no amount of developer expertise that can substitute the value of player feedback, which I would argue should include the full spectrum players.

 

[lordvaati]

One Word: Miiverse.

 

[IsmaR]

I'm curious to see Sakurai's Street Fighter prowess now. And if it's the inspiration to things like Cruel Melee/Brawl.