Koopa VS Kefka -- The Endless Tournament ends! Who took home the prize?

[Wots All This Then?]

Bye Super Fab.
Bye PP

 

[Kantrip]

Bye PP
Bye Super Fab

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Bye PP
Bye Super Fab

 

[Circus]

good great lots of new stuff to work with here

@Mod: Can you update the point tally in (some post after) the OP? Goin' back and searching for the most recent one you posted is becoming cumbersome.

 

[Circus]

"On brackets: Assuming there are still 13 players (there should be without modkills or Removal) at the end of Cycle 1, there will be an 8-player Winner's Bracket and 4-player Loser's Bracket. (The 13th player who is out of the fighting will be either the Tourney Cop, or a member of MAF.) As the brackets progress, players will filter down into successive rounds of the Loser's Bracket. Eventually, the final match will take place between the winners of the two brackets. The Loser's Bracket will last more matches than the Winner's Bracket, and losing in the Loser's Bracket means elimination from the tournament and from the game, so it's beneficial to win, win, win!"

Emphasis mine.

So apparently I didn't read this very well the first dozen times I tried banging my head against Nabe's OPs in order to try to understand the rules. Thought the playerlist was essentially shaved down to 8 players in cycle 2, but that doesn't actually seem to be the case. Going to Loser's bracket just makes life a little harder.

There's also a suggestion here that losing in Winner's Bracket doesn't eliminate you. I guess it just puts you in one of the later stages of Loser's Bracket? I have no idea how tournaments work.

This makes things more wrinkly. I think keeping townie players in Winner's Bracket like we were planning is still beneficial, but I was thinking we would get 4 flips after cycle 1 that I guess aren't actually coming. And we don't lose anyone if they happen to not make it into the top 8 before cycle 1 ends, so that simultaneously makes match throwing even more viable but less necessary.

I feel like this should effect our strategy more than it looks like it does, but it's not clicking with me yet. Unless everyone else already understood this (very likely) and just let me ramble on about elimination matches without correcting me before.

Whatever. Will think more on this later.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

basically it's a double elim tourney, jerkus

why would we get four flips?

 

[ranmaru]

Scratch that DoSS memory woops.

I was about to say. I was gonna go WAH WAH WHY NOT ME ;-;

Bye: PP
Bye: Fabio

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I was about to say. I was gonna go WAH WAH WHY NOT ME ;-;

Bye: PP
Bye: Fabio

I thought you guys got it and not Watt, lol.

 

[ranmaru]

Oh lol ok.

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

good great lots of new stuff to work with here

@Mod: Can you update the point tally in (some post after) the OP? Goin' back and searching for the most recent one you posted is becoming cumbersome.

The Current Point Standings are in post 5 of the thread.

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

Votecount 3-1

Pixp and Fabio have six votes each or something
7 to bye

No one is removed yet

 

[Circus]

basically it's a double elim tourney, jerkus

why would we get four flips?

Like I said, because I thought the end of cycle 1 basically just trimmed the playerlist down to 8 slots. 12 - 8 = 4 eliminated players.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

I actually don't think it would be. I know my logic against him being scum isn't very founded (as I have him exclusively as not the poisoner and nothing else), but I can't see scum at the position he's at.

Where were Rake's mad obvious cop crumbs? And why didn't you outright say this last night in the room?

Dude, did you even read my post in the hotel room?

-Hypocrite Dietz doesn't read threads

 

[Wots All This Then?]

I just hope the removal happened because someone else noticed them too and not because we noticed them and took a chance to say "maybe not Rake then" to the room instead of being silent.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

The best chance of people seeing it though I think would be if they were either in our room where I came out and said me and Orbo suspected he was dropping hints either for real or for scummy reasons so we should definitely go Gheb over him, or in Rake's Night 0 Hotel where he basically said "Don't cheat" (so our slot and Potassium).

I personally don't really want to consider WL scum or PJB scum at this point though, so it's just been GLG and maybe Potassium on the "Did you know?" suspect list. Otherwise they figured it our on their own from thread interactions.

 

[ranmaru]

Honestly I wouldn't put too much stock in it possibly being the room. Rake can sometimes leak his role without thinking. Having hydra'd with him, I know this. He doesn't crumb, but he'll talk about roles or actions without really thinking of the consequences. He goes by the "Town won't lie, and would tell town everything" rule.

I think WL (and others who were in Elements and Attributes can see this) would understand this. Rake/me were being pressured about our role and he even went on to talk about our secret actions and I was like NOOO WE MIGHT GET RB'D MAN NOOO NO NO NO.

I do think it happening after circus is fishy, but it's either him who did it or someone else trying to frame him since he replaced in.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

No. I'm trying to win this game for my faction because you're all acting like chickens with their heads cut off. I could be stubborn and not give a ****. Like, honestly, you shoot down my idea like you have something better. Do you? Tell me. I'm open to it. I'm open to anything at this point. I know how much **** we're in and I'm trying to take action. God forbid.

You're missing the ****ing point that Jerkus, Wott, and I have been telling you: with the cop dead, we cannot ****ing punish scum. They could literally claim at the start of cycle 2 and we could do ****all about it. You keep mentioning this plan of yours as the second sliced bread or some **** and yet you're failing to account for what we do when someone ****s up and looks suspicious. What are we gonna do, Soup? Give their opponent a 1-round color buff that, as has been stated beforehand, is merely a "don't lose" button rather than a "gj, pretty easy win" button?

No, that's not the problem with this. Suspicion still lets us "punish" scum.

The problem is that Mafia can agree to the plan with no downside while Town still arguably has one.



If a slot is scum and is put up against a "scummy" town slot who is told to lose against them, the plan benefits them: they get an auto-win, and if the other player doesn't agree they can go "HEY HE DIDN'T LOSE!" and make us waste our suspicion on a town slot the next round.
Then, if the scum gets put up against someone who is "townier" and should win against them: they just ignore the plan and try to win regardless like they always would have.




If town gets pitted against town, the one who everyone likes the best wins, regardless of skill at playing the mini-game/choosing colors and characters. That's a good way to get a weak competitor to go up against scum when it counts and we can't help them.

You KNOW your own alignment as a townplayer, therefore you should play to let the better man win even in the case of TvT. The suspicion mechanic will be a popularity contest already, there's no reason to punish potential town-members for playing to what they know (their alignment) over what they can only guess (other player's alignment) when it counts when we'll already be subconsciously following who we think is the most townie with Suspicion buffs the whole bracket without a plan to throw.


Does that make sense?

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Honestly I wouldn't put too much stock in it possibly being the room. Rake can sometimes leak his role without thinking. Having hydra'd with him, I know this. He doesn't crumb, but he'll talk about roles or actions without really thinking of the consequences. He goes by the "Town won't lie, and would tell town everything" rule.

I think WL (and others who were in Elements and Attributes can see this) would understand this. Rake/me were being pressured about our role and he even went on to talk about our secret actions and I was like NOOO WE MIGHT GET RB'D MAN NOOO NO NO NO.

I do think it happening after circus is fishy, but it's either him who did it or someone else trying to frame him since he replaced in.

I get what you mean, he wasn't exactly subtle about it. Orbo picked it up after all, so someone else could have as well without us talking. I just feel responsible since I took the action to say it to make sure we didn't make a removal mistake and it turned out to be accurate and possibly fatal.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

I don't get why my writing became all small all of a sudden in that bigger post... but I'll roll with it lol

 

[Wots All This Then?]

NOW.

With all that said wrt Cycle 2. I see some potential merit in grooming up the Cycle 1 results to give townie players better standings if we can do it, which I believe Soup also suggested. We just can't live our Cycle 2 lives quite the same way.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Man, people goin' gorillas in here.

We can still turn this around. It's still entirely possible that, by culling the people going into the top 8, we remove some or all of the scum team. We may be lucky; we may have a few MAF's hangin' out at the bottom with two losses under their belt already. The one advantage we do have still is numbers. Assuming we can shave off at least a couple scummers this cycle, raw odds give us a good shot in cycle 2. We just can't approach it the same way we approach most games. It does turn into more individualized battles rather than one, group strategy. But with a majority of those battles (hopefully) being fought for the same wincon, that should be relatively good news for us even if scum starts going full cheat.

We in it.

I do like the sound of this.
@Underlinded: Make no mistake though: everyone will be going full cheat come Cycle 2.


AND I MEAN EVERYONE. That's not a suggestion, that's an order.

If you aren't cheating against everyone in every round: you're just letting mafia win for no reason. There's no cop to stop cheating anymore so you have to do it just to get to "normal" against them. It's simple, but it's something I don't want any town member to overlook in any of their matches.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Dude, did you even read my post in the hotel room?

-Hypocrite Dietz doesn't read threads

I actually completely forgot about it rorf

still don't think it was glg, though. he's done little to say he isn't but he certainly hasn't done enough to say he is and i don't know why he'd stick in the room if he thought we were scum for it. in the event he is scum, he starts in losers and i would urge his opponent to cheat against him every round.

for those who don't know, dietz posted an entire ****ing post as soon as night started explaining that he thought rake might've been scum. this changes the dynamic of everything i knew because i completely forgot that post existed.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

The best chance of people seeing it though I think would be if they were either in our room where I came out and said me and Orbo suspected he was dropping hints either for real or for scummy reasons so we should definitely go Gheb over him, or in Rake's Night 0 Hotel where he basically said "Don't cheat" (so our slot and Potassium).

I personally don't really want to consider WL scum or PJB scum at this point though, so it's just been GLG and maybe Potassium on the "Did you know?" suspect list. Otherwise they figured it our on their own from thread interactions.

I mean we have to account for the possibility that scum did figure it out on their own. I don't think you're scum because that would put a bead on your back and if I were scum, I came to the conclusion that it wasn't Rake so you'd have to rectify that in regards to what happened. I think it has to be PJB or GLG and I just can't rectify the guy with the phone hitting himself with the poisoner if he did in fact know. I don't know how his phone works or anything like that. I have to think it's PJB or no one in that event.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Honestly I wouldn't put too much stock in it possibly being the room. Rake can sometimes leak his role without thinking. Having hydra'd with him, I know this. He doesn't crumb, but he'll talk about roles or actions without really thinking of the consequences. He goes by the "Town won't lie, and would tell town everything" rule.

I think WL (and others who were in Elements and Attributes can see this) would understand this. Rake/me were being pressured about our role and he even went on to talk about our secret actions and I was like NOOO WE MIGHT GET RB'D MAN NOOO NO NO NO.

I do think it happening after circus is fishy, but it's either him who did it or someone else trying to frame him since he replaced in.

Right I remember that but he was way, way more open about it in that game than he was in this game. I didn't even pick up on cop crumbs at all.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

No, that's not the problem with this. Suspicion still lets us "punish" scum.

The problem is that Mafia can agree to the plan with no downside while Town still arguably has one.



If a slot is scum and is put up against a "scummy" town slot who is told to lose against them, the plan benefits them: they get an auto-win, and if the other player doesn't agree they can go "HEY HE DIDN'T LOSE!" and make us waste our suspicion on a town slot the next round.
Then, if the scum gets put up against someone who is "townier" and should win against them: they just ignore the plan and try to win regardless like they always would have.




If town gets pitted against town, the one who everyone likes the best wins, regardless of skill at playing the mini-game/choosing colors and characters. That's a good way to get a weak competitor to go up against scum when it counts and we can't help them.

You KNOW your own alignment as a townplayer, therefore you should play to let the better man win even in the case of TvT. The suspicion mechanic will be a popularity contest already, there's no reason to punish potential town-members for playing to what they know (their alignment) over what they can only guess (other player's alignment) when it counts when we'll already be subconsciously following who we think is the most townie with Suspicion buffs the whole bracket without a plan to throw.


Does that make sense?

This is what I was talking about in regards to Kantrip earlier. Sure you have slots like you, PJB, or Super Fab that everyone generally agrees are town but let's say Kantrip comes up against me. He thinks I'm scum or at least doesn't trust me. If he chooses to forgo his read in favor of following what town thinks, he could possibly be letting a scumpick beat him and advance in the tourney while if he beats me, slots that think I'm town will want to punish him for it and that's not truly fair. People ***** about Shoco cheating against WOTT but it makes sense because Shoco did at the time think they were scum, even if the reasons were absolute horse****.

This is that whole "trying to make an objective system based on the subjectivity of reads" point I was making. It's simply not going to work once you get into the gray area and is going to cause a lot of problems when you get matches like Kantrip vs PP or Soup vs Pawn or things of that ilk.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

I do like the sound of this.
@Underlinded: Make no mistake though: everyone will be going full cheat come Cycle 2.


AND I MEAN EVERYONE. That's not a suggestion, that's an order.

If you aren't cheating against everyone in every round: you're just letting mafia win for no reason. There's no cop to stop cheating anymore so you have to do it just to get to "normal" against them. It's simple, but it's something I don't want any town member to overlook in any of their matches.

Actually I'm fairly certain scum started with a tidbit not to cheat as town would expect them to do so and, as a result, start cheating as a countermeasure. It's especially wiser if scum start to come under suspicions--tourney cop checks their game, town forfeits, they get 3 points ez pz

 

[Wots All This Then?]

lahndry remind me to talk to you over lunch about a viewpoint to this game.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

ebwop: unfortunately that thought hit me only as ran vented his frustrations about getting copped.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

I mean we have to account for the possibility that scum did figure it out on their own. I don't think you're scum because that would put a bead on your back and if I were scum, I came to the conclusion that it wasn't Rake so you'd have to rectify that in regards to what happened. I think it has to be PJB or GLG and I just can't rectify the guy with the phone hitting himself with the poisoner if he did in fact know. I don't know how his phone works or anything like that. I have to think it's PJB or no one in that event.

I forgot that GLG got poisoned, but wouldn't "not poisoner" make him an equally good candidate for "guy with gun"?


(I must wait 6 more second before this action something or other Smashboards and hydras don't mix)

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

lahndry remind me to talk to you over lunch about a viewpoint to this game.

Okay? Not sure what about

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

I forgot that GLG got poisoned, but wouldn't "not poisoner" make him an equally good candidate for "guy with gun"?


(I must wait 6 more second before this action something or other Smashboards and hydras don't mix)

Providing the guy with the gun and the guy with the phone aren't the same person, sure. If GLG knew it was coming, not so much. Unfortunately I don't know how those roles work so I can't say much nor attempt to assume I do.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

I actually completely forgot about it rorf

still don't think it was glg, though. he's done little to say he isn't but he certainly hasn't done enough to say he is and i don't know why he'd stick in the room if he thought we were scum for it. in the event he is scum, he starts in losers and i would urge his opponent to cheat against him every round.

for those who don't know, dietz posted an entire ****ing post as soon as night started explaining that he thought rake might've been scum. this changes the dynamic of everything i knew because i completely forgot that post existed.

scum crumbing cop*

The worry was if he (Rake) wasn't doing it for scum intent then we were potentially putting cop above Gheb for removal consideration in the hotel room.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

I actually completely forgot about it rorf

for those who don't know, dietz posted an entire ****ing post as soon as night started explaining that he thought rake might've been scum this changes the dynamic of everything i knew because i completely forgot that post existed.

that rake might've been scum crumbing cop or the actual cop*

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Providing the guy with the gun and the guy with the phone aren't the same person, sure. If GLG knew it was coming, not so much. Unfortunately I don't know how those roles work so I can't say much nor attempt to assume I do.

Me and Orbo are under the impression that since Rake said he received the text at night, and he was shot in the morning (and OP suggests that one scum acts on each of the 4 phases of play), that the phone and the gunmen aren't the same mafia role.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

that rake might've been scum crumbing cop or the actual cop*

*unscripted hydra-five*

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

scum crumbing cop*

The worry was if he (Rake) wasn't doing it for scum intent then we were potentially putting cop above Gheb for removal consideration in the hotel room.

I never had Rake over Gheb as I only thought Rake was scum in the event Gheb was scum lopl.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Me and Orbo are under the impression that since Rake said he received the text at night, and he was shot in the morning (and OP suggests that one scum acts on each of the 4 phases of play), that the phone and the gunmen aren't the same mafia role.

Well then who was it? And how did he know to target Rake? The OP does state that phone guy is looking for the cop and can directly interfere with him in some manner, at least to my knowledge.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

I never had Rake over Gheb as I only thought Rake was scum in the event Gheb was scum lopl.

You yeah, but PJB didn't agree with that coming into the room.

Well then who was it? And how did he know to target Rake? The OP does state that phone guy is looking for the cop and can directly interfere with him in some manner, at least to my knowledge.

That is true, I guess we can't know for sure it's not the same guy since Nabe outright said that...

But the point is: why not GLG if not being poisoner doesn't mean not being the shooter?
(\/)(;,,(\/)

 

[Wots All This Then?]

EBWOP: Auto smileys just ruined my Zoidberg... sadness

 

[Wots All This Then?]

When rake started going on about stuff in thread, mafia might know or have a hint of what the others abilities mean, so one could help trigger another without direct communication. i cant poe who it was, but we can eliminate certain people if we know their last online times around the time of the shot.