Koopa VS Kefka -- The Endless Tournament ends! Who took home the prize?

[#HBC | Laundry]

Umm, for the record, I'm not voting to remove gheb because

A.) Yes, it's risky. It will be less risky later, because we will have made a more informed decision.

B.) I'm not convinced Gheb is scum. Like, at all. PP's case on gheb amounts to little more than "Look at gheb being salty gheb! Scum." to me. Yes, he's anti-town as all ****. How many times have you played with Gheb? He's always like that, especially when he's town.

i've played plenty of games with gheb like whaddafuk

It's not necessarily the fact that he was salty. I'm not that dumb. I tried peeling back the surface layers of Gheb to see what effectively he had done. Please don't boil it down to the fact that he was salty as that's underselling it and missing the point.

In case it wasn't obvious enough, we gain a read out of a lie. Catching a lie is very unlikely though, as scum has literally no reason to lie, nor does town.

I'd personally read Pawn as scum if he lied, because it would really just look like a newbie scum mistake that didn't consider town's motives at all. He'd have no reason to be ashamed of a 2-0 win or of cheating if he was town, so I don't think a townie (or scummy) would lie in this scenario.

Alright, fine, fair enough. I just don't think it's a good idea to disregard it completely. I still think we can gain some information from it, like analyzing NAs in a normal game. It's WIFOMy, kinda sorta, but it's still information regardless.

 

[Super Fabulous]

We all encouraged cheating and so did the Mod, so it's hard to get an alignment tell from someone cheating, because town and scum would just be open about it. Also another thing the result is public, so it's not like they can be caught in a lie. Actually it's best if we just ask each other if we cheated or not before day breaks again. (Or whenever the results show up)

Kantrip vs Pawn 2-0, either... pawn cheated... or kantrip just lost fair and square. Or kantrip split the pot (if that's even possible... lol)

I mean I don't know why we are still talking about this as if we can get an idea of what kantrip or pawn may have done.

 

[Super Fabulous]

PJB that's basically a null for you in that case. So other slots with 'no content' aren't that much better than gheb, who has little to no content (and gave up). (And is scummy in my and others eyes)

 

[Super Fabulous]

Yo hey pawn can you get to that gheb reasoning thanks

 

[pawndidater2]

why are you sticking around in a room with scum in it if you think he is in fact scum

Because I don't know where to go for what reason. If you can think of something for me to do shoot.

 

[Super Fabulous]

So why don't you go to a room with your townreads...

 

[#HBC | Joker]

PJB that's basically a null for you in that case. So other slots with 'no content' aren't that much better than gheb, who has little to no content (and gave up). (And is scummy in my and others eyes)

True, it is completely null

Null is not scum. I'm not gonna use our one removal on a guy that's null.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Umm, for the record, I'm not voting to remove gheb because

A.) Yes, it's risky. It will be less risky later, because we will have made a more informed decision.

B.) I'm not convinced Gheb is scum. Like, at all. PP's case on gheb amounts to little more than "Look at gheb being salty gheb! Scum." to me. Yes, he's anti-town as all ****. How many times have you played with Gheb? He's always like that, especially when he's town.

You really didn't read his case if you think that is what his case said.

Second bolded is about when he is salty, you even admit he does it as scum so that is a null tell.

Reread the Gheb case, it's more than "Gheb is salty"

 

[Super Fabulous]

Why is pawn avoiding the question.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

So why don't you go to a room with your townreads...

Remind me to ask you about this later.

 

[Super Fabulous]

Sure thing.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Wait, so we basically bye'd for no reason and didn't follow through on the Removal which would have netted us much more information?

Yeah, you're goddamn right I'm frustrated. I don't 100% scum-read Gheb like Washed but I agreed with his case for the most part and I don't believe Gheb is worth keeping around. I don't understand how you people can consistently post in this thread completely content that despite your large post-count in this thread, that nothing is getting done. I've heard people call be Scum, but I frankly don't care because that's all it's ever going to be. I know I might be reverting back to my previous mindset, but I feel completely justified in not giving two ****s about what's going on, and if you wanna keep on sounding the trumpets of me being scum, go right ahead!

Let me know when this game actually progresses.

What are you doing?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

mfw it's actually joey

sigh

Alright, look at it like this. Your entire argument is weighted on "town is afraid of being found by the cop because it's still valuable to cheat and do their best", right? So why aren't you more interested in the WOTT vs Shoco match? Both cheated, both claim to have cheated, and yet WOTT still got absolutely buttdevastated. Is it possible? Just like the Pawn case. Is it probable? Questionable. That's why I'm interested and I keep bringing it up. The information I'm gaining here isn't nearly as infallible as a cop guilty but I can still gain something out of it by referencing it with what I know about that slot based on their performance in-thread. We don't have flips. We have to make due with everything else available to us and taking match results out of the picture is taking the closest ****ing thing to a flip we have in this game away. I'm not doing that.

I am liable to get things wrong. I'm not making definitive statements based on this. But we should be skeptical of the heavy winners just as we are skeptical of the heavy losers. Don't think I didn't consider the idea of Kantrip tanking as hard as he can so as to avoid confusion or not cheating so as to avoid being punished by a cop.

Shoco winning isn't out of the ordinary, unless they did something that gave them a larger lead like mafia does.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Sure thing.

I thought of something actually.

Quick question, when you cheated what did you get? And what did you use?

 

[Super Fabulous]

I usually got the normal thing if I won, but if I would have lost I would have used a different color automatically to be able to win. (One that my character has)

 

[Super Fabulous]

(That only happened once, every other time it was fair winning or a loss)

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I usually got the normal thing if I won, but if I would have lost I would have used a different color automatically to be able to win. (One that my character has)

But what did cheating give you?

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Shoco winning isn't out of the ordinary, unless they did something that gave them a larger lead like mafia does.

that's kinda what i was getting at

btw ur probs town jsyk

 

[Super Fabulous]

Just what I said. It's like it proceeds as normal but whenever there is a chance that I lose then the color is switched to something that would one up the color opposing me.

So basically I don't GET anything, it's just I say "I'm cheating" and then I say the move and it goes as if it was going normally, but again, the color is switched to whatever would give me the advantage if I would have lost. Get me?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

that's kinda what i was getting at

btw ur probs town jsyk

What I'm looking at is this.

On Cheating: All players can Cheat (except for the Tourney Cop). Doing so is as easy as telling me you're Cheating at the start of a round in a match. If a player Cheats, and their opponent does not Cheat, the Cheating player automatically wins the round, and both players will be shown an "outcome" that represents an ordinary "win". If both players Cheat, the round proceeds to an outcome by normal resolution. There is an additional method of Cheating available only to Team MAF -- using banned moves. This trumps normal Cheating, and again, both players will see an "outcome" reflecting an ordinary round. Banned moves may only be used in one round per match. Many characters do not have banned moves.

Specifically the two bolded parts.

Joey said in our room him and Ran saw a character had a banned move, but they lost the match that they used him.

This info is pretty useful if we know what color those banned moves are and who is using which characters, players can report these matches and see if it matches up with others and how this relates to what people are getting when they cheat.

Seeing them s probs public knowledge when you choose them, based on what Fab said in our room, but you can't use them unless you are mafia, that is something we can track if we reveal characters with those kinds of moves, if we learn who used what character and if they used a color on that character that matches a banned move it nails scum.

Also revealing you cheating is soft claiming you're not the tourney cop, aka helps mafia out a lot more than town. So Cheating has a huge con I didn't see in the OP the first time.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Just what I said. It's like it proceeds as normal but whenever there is a chance that I lose then the color is switched to something that would one up the color opposing me.

So basically I don't GET anything, it's just I say "I'm cheating" and then I say the move and it goes as if it was going normally, but again, the color is switched to whatever would give me the advantage if I would have lost. Get me?

Ok gotcha.

So saying "I'm cheating" makes it so you win with a chance to have your colors switched.

So really the color changing is not what we are looking for, both town and mafia get it I think based on the OP. What we want is the banned moves which looks like public knowledge.

 

[Super Fabulous]

We actually don't know the color of the banned move.

Also, I noticed that saying we are cheating soft claims that we may not be cop, but I'm fine with the cop lying about cheating so that there is no harm about him also being semi-outted.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Fab quick question.

If you don't mind, but does the banned move have multiple colors and if it does, without revealing the colors atm, is it placed in a way where the banned move can't lose very often?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

We actually don't know the color of the banned move.

Also, I noticed that saying we are cheating soft claims that we may not be cop, but I'm fine with the cop lying about cheating so that there is no harm about him also being semi-outted.

The problem is if the cop investigates and revealing it mod confirmed.

 

[Super Fabulous]

I'm saying about the cop lying about his own match. (Like when asked, he can say "Yeah I cheated" so that there is no suspicion of him being a cop)

Also no the only thing we know about the banned move is the name and that it's striked out.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

You really didn't read his case if you think that is what his case said.

Second bolded is about when he is salty, you even admit he does it as scum so that is a null tell.

Reread the Gheb case, it's more than "Gheb is salty"

True, it is completely null

Null is not scum. I'm not gonna use our one removal on a guy that's null.

Like I already ****ing said right here^

Null is not scummy. I never said was townreading him, but I don't find him scummy enough to get on board with using our removal on him. He's not that scummy, not to me. You're gonna have to do more than point to PP's case and say "you must not be understanding it" to convince me that Gheb is scum.

We can't just get his flip and learn from it in this game. Learning from his flip doesn't do jack **** for us, because we can't remove anyone else based on what we've learned. We have to get it right, and I'm not convinced Gheb is the right choice.

As of right now, Shoco is my frontrunner for removal.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Like I already ****ing said right here^

Null is not scummy. I never said was townreading him, but I don't find him scummy enough to get on board with using our removal on him. He's not that scummy, not to me. You're gonna have to do more than point to PP's case and say "you must not be understanding it" to convince me that Gheb is scum.

We can't just get his flip and learn from it in this game. Learning from his flip doesn't do jack **** for us, because we can't remove anyone else based on what we've learned. We have to get it right, and I'm not convinced Gheb is the right choice.

As of right now, Shoco is my frontrunner for removal.

I'm not allowed to point to my own damn logic and say "hey look at this **** dumbass"? Rude.

But what happened? I thought you were one of the people pushing it down as well. Now when push came to shove, you're dipping and saying it was really Shoco all along?

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

In fact, why is he "not that scummy"? What about Shoco says you need to remove him over Gheb? What did Shoco do that was so incredibly scummy?

 

[ranmaru]

Why shoco for you. Refresh me on your reasoning. Also what do you think of pawn ignoring my question to him?

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Also no the only thing we know about the banned move is the name and that it's striked out.

while i'd love for some asshole to be incredibly naive and walk in here and be like "lel no it's not", cat's outta the bag. i'm confirming this is how it appears, as one of our characters also has this problem.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Why shoco for you. Refresh me on your reasoning. Also what do you think of pawn ignoring my question to him?

is this to me?

 

[ranmaru]

No that was to pjb. Mobile.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

What I'm looking at is this.



Specifically the two bolded parts.

Joey said in our room him and Ran saw a character had a banned move, but they lost the match that they used him.

This info is pretty useful if we know what color those banned moves are and who is using which characters, players can report these matches and see if it matches up with others and how this relates to what people are getting when they cheat.

Seeing them s probs public knowledge when you choose them, based on what Fab said in our room, but you can't use them unless you are mafia, that is something we can track if we reveal characters with those kinds of moves, if we learn who used what character and if they used a color on that character that matches a banned move it nails scum.

Also revealing you cheating is soft claiming you're not the tourney cop, aka helps mafia out a lot more than town. So Cheating has a huge con I didn't see in the OP the first time.

...i'm liking this approach, honestly. joey kept saying "scum have no reason to lie", but by making them out characters and moves used and what those characters have, this could actually both catch them in a lie and force them to lie in the first place as they have to hide **** like that.

lemme think about this. the issue i have with it is that i don't know how we punish scum for it. i want to at least see what putting someone under suspicion does. it'd be great if we could lynch 'em for it but that's not the case. given we have so little about what suspecting people does in cycle 2, i want to get more information on that before we start to do something like this. i definitely don't want fab or i to spout off who those characters with banned moves are only for scum to take advantage of it and coast to victory.

now you see why i was so skeptical of people saying "yeh we got multiple colors" beforehand.

 

[Super Fabulous]

What I'm thinking is if it's bad to wait for more days to use the removal, because it may give that person a chance to accumulate more points in the bracket (and that's bad if they are scum).

Basically I'm down with using the removal on Day 3 or 4 since we should have enough match results to talk about by then.

 

[Super Fabulous]

Cheating basically changes the color of your move if you were originally going to lose.

Imagine a banned move being any color that beats you. There is no color next to the move, the phrase "Banned" replaces the color, and it's basically a "I want to beat you"

Catching scum in character lies can work. They can spread character information through that phone ability, though, so they should have a general idea of the characters by now and can know up to 16 character's color abilities at this point. If they're taking an exploration approach, they should have every character done by day 3-4 if they work together, so they should know almost every option available to them. Good scum communication can ruin everything.

It does give them a reason to lie, though.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

What gave you the idea that I was in favor of removing gheb at any point in time?

I'm not allowed to point to my own damn logic and say "hey look at this **** *******"? Rude.

But what happened? I thought you were one of the people pushing it down as well. Now when push came to shove, you're dipping and saying it was really Shoco all along?

First of all, I was talking to ryu. He's the one saying "yo just go reread the case" as logic for why i should be in favor of removing gheb. I did read it. I read it when you posted it. Sorry, not all that impressed. There's a lot of you guessing at why Gheb must have been doing something, and making assumptions based on that. Too much of it.

What do you mean by "pushing it down"? You mean the idea of removing soon? I don't want to use removal soon, that's correct. If you told me you were down to remove shoco right now, I still wouldn't do it. But I'm not an idiot, I'm still weighing options. When time for removal comes, I still need to know who I want gone. Right now, it's shoco. Basically everything xonar has posted has made me want to remove that slot. Go look at his ****ing entrance to the game, I was mad about it even then. Seph coming in and trying to bail him out by being a sane individual does not make it ok. They're one slot.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Why shoco for you. Refresh me on your reasoning. Also what do you think of pawn ignoring my question to him?

His entrance to the game was horrible, and basically anything posted by the xonar side has been equally awful.

as for pawn, I'm literally not even interested in pawn. He's completely lost in this game, and you guys pushing him around trying to get answers out of him isn't going to change that. I read the newbie game where he was scum, he is a lot calmer under pressure than this. The reason he's not answering you is NOT because he's scum. If he didn't have an answer for you as scum, he wouldn't hesitate to make something up for appearances. The reason he's not answering you is because he's lost. Trust me on this. You're barking up the wrong tree.

 

[Super Fabulous]

Ok, it's horrible. But why does that make him scum?

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Ok, it's horrible. But why does that make him scum?

His reads. They were so off the wall at the time, and there was no explanation for why. Who comes into a game long in progress, gives a bunch of crazy reads that everyone disagrees with, and doesn't explain why? If the rest of us are off track, why wouldn't you try to fix it?

Nope, his reads were weird because he knows too much. It reads like he knows our alignments, so explaining them is unnecessary because "lol, I was right". Like, everyone was reading rake as scum back then, but shoco had him as town right away. Why? I've decided that Rake could very well be town at this point, but that was after talking with him and watt in private in the hotel last night. So why did shoco think he was town, and not really tell us why? My theory? Cuz he knows.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Biggest thing that bugs me with Shoco is how they handled a scum read on WoTT.