Koopa VS Kefka -- The Endless Tournament ends! Who took home the prize?

[Super Fabulous]

We can't go into match results lol.

The only reason why match results would be useful at all would be to catch a liar, but in this game and with the way this game is set up, there is literally no reason to lie. Town is encouraged to cheat. The only thing our opponent can see is colors. The opponent has no idea if I cheat or not until I openly admit so, and as a player I am encouraged to cheat regardless of my alignment because that puts me at a higher advantage regardless and it will put me in the Top 8 for sure if I win all of my matches.

Scum isn't always going to win, and in this format, they have no reason not to lose every now and again. Top 8 get put into a winners bracket, bottom 4 in losers. Scum has no reason to win every single one of their matches considering that getting into the bottom four is very likely as long as you win like... Three of your matches? Four? Finding scum through matches is VERY unlikely, especially considering that there are players that are willing to do every dirty trick to win at this point regardless of alignment.

Extreme individualism is encouraged by the fact that we can't lynch players. We have one removal, and as long as we're not Gheb at this point, we can act in any way that we want due to the fact that we all already have our general reads. In the end this game will turn into "BEAT SCUM IN TOURNAMENT D:<" regardless of our reads outside of our one removal, so players honestly aren't encouraged to interact outside of match results and characters, both of which are pretty useless to discuss and only give us either baseless reads that go no where or baseless self confirmation in our already solid reads.

There is almost no reason to discuss tournament results if we can't discuss characters in my opinion. Anyone disagree?

 

[Wots All This Then?]

The thing is, what do we gain form discussing characters in public? There's aspects of certain characters I know I don't want to reveal to mafia if they haven't discovered it for themselves

 

[Super Fabulous]

Request Room Change to Room 3

I said previously that our slot is moving, so this seems like a good move.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Also, match results can help us to determine thing. Mafia wants wo win as much as possible, and in the early goings they will want to ensure that as many of them get into the tournament as possible for their global wincon.
That said, we can definitely look ta something like kantrip getting 2-0'd and draw results from that. We can look at shoco cheating against me and draw conclusions from that.

 

[Super Fabulous]

The thing is, what do we gain form discussing characters in public? There's aspects of certain characters I know I don't want to reveal to mafia if they haven't discovered it for themselves

I'm saying we can't discuss characters due to the fact that our characters aren't shown in matches. If the game were tweaked a little bit and characters were openly shown in matches, then we'd have a reason to discuss match results. In the current game, we have no reason to discuss characters, therefore we have no reason to discuss match results.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Characters not being revealed in matches is actually a good thing, because it forces you to use an extensive amount of characters in order to gain as much knowledge as possible. That aspect is independent form the actual results

 

[Super Fabulous]

Also, match results can help us to determine thing. Mafia wants wo win as much as possible, and in the early goings they will want to ensure that as many of them get into the tournament as possible for their global wincon.
That said, we can definitely look ta something like kantrip getting 2-0'd and draw results from that. We can look at shoco cheating against me and draw conclusions from that.

Every player gets into the tournament lol. The only player that wouldn't would be the player that is selected by the tourney cop if the player happens to be scum. It's either the tourney cop that doesn't get in or it's the mafia. 8 players get in winners, 4 players get in losers, and coming from a person that has to deal with Swiss tournaments all the time, assuming that Nabe matches winners with winners and losers with losers like he should, then getting top 8 is pretty easy and completely obtainable if you win like 3-4 matches (possibly even two if the others are doing worse). Scum have the chance to lose multiple matches and to flow with the townies in match results because all they have to do is get into tournament and rely on banned moves when they're needed, which is entirely possible. I'm pretty sure scum could easily win with using their banned move in the right time and get into top 4. Getting into losers bracket isn't even too bad for one scummy if the other three are in winners due to that banned move alone.

Also, the reality of it is that it only takes a few random selections to win if both players choose to either cheat or not cheat. Pawn 2-0'ing Kantrip means nothing because it is completely and statistically possible, and any reads formed from it are both baseless and should be thrown out of this thread because our reads should be 100% in order to use them for removal. Reads based off of a player 2-0'ing someone and claiming not to cheat are no where near certain enough for a removal vote. If you think you gain a read from that, then you should get out.

We don't gain ANYTHING from realizing that someone is cheating wtf. There is no reason for a townie not to cheat. If you really think that a scummy is more likely to cheat than a townie, then you definitely need to start thinking more. Town win this game by doing the exact same thing scum are doing, and that is getting into the top 8 spots in the bracket. Cheating is the best way to gain this spot, so there is literally NO REASON to not cheat. You get caught by the cop one match? Oh no, you're behind and you probably won't get top 1-3. Big deal. Assuming the cop doesn't hound you for multiple matches, you should be perfectly fine to cheat throughout all five/six of your matches and get top 8 easily assuming that you don't get screwed over by luck.

 

[pawndidater2]

Pawn tell me how your reads on Shoco, Soup, Kantrip, and Gheb are doing now.

Shoco is still scummy. Nothing he's said has changed that for me. Gheb is scum, but we should hold off on removing him for a bit. At least until tomorrow, I think another match phase's results should be on the table so we can try and draw some patterns. Soup I think is town that's really getting fed up with this game. I understand, there is so little we can actually do it's frustrating. Kantrip I don't know, I don't think he's been around recently.

 

[Super Fabulous]

Characters not being revealed is a terrible thing lol. We gain absolutely nothing from finding a character with banned moves, and we gain absolutely nothing from the character selection other than sticking to our guns and using the same characters throughout the whole tournament. Scum can easily find 8 characters with banned moves and use those to plow through us in the tournament, and we have absolutely nothing to stop that because we have no way to tell if they're using said characters in these matches. This also completely screws over match results, because now we have to rely on assumptions instead of actual facts. "I think he could have used a banned move or a higher power of cheating" or "I think Pawn is lying since he 2-0'd Kantrip", both of which are completely crappy statements.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Every player gets into the tournament lol. The only player that wouldn't would be the player that is selected by the tourney cop if the player happens to be scum. It's either the tourney cop that doesn't get in or it's the mafia. 8 players get in winners, 4 players get in losers, and coming from a person that has to deal with Swiss tournaments all the time, assuming that Nabe matches winners with winners and losers with losers like he should, then getting top 8 is pretty easy and completely obtainable if you win like 3-4 matches (possibly even two if the others are doing worse). Scum have the chance to lose multiple matches and to flow with the townies in match results because all they have to do is get into tournament and rely on banned moves when they're needed, which is entirely possible. I'm pretty sure scum could easily win with using their banned move in the right time and get into top 4. Getting into losers bracket isn't even too bad for one scummy if the other three are in winners due to that banned move alone.

It's up to scum to find those characters with banned moves though, and it's no guarantee that they will. Also, yes, scum can get into the winners bracket easily, but they still want to be in as good a shape as possible. These results are reflective of what they choose to do within the game and can be used to gain insight into their motivations.

Also, the reality of it is that it only takes a few random selections to win if both players choose to either cheat or not cheat. Pawn 2-0'ing Kantrip means nothing because it is completely and statistically possible, and any reads formed from it are both baseless and should be thrown out of this thread because our reads should be 100% in order to use them for removal. Reads based off of a player 2-0'ing someone and claiming not to cheat are no where near certain enough for a removal vote. If you think you gain a read from that, then you should get out.

But is it completely and statistically likely? The reads we can get here aren't gonna be 100% accurate, but they can be used in a supplemental manner similar to night actions.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Characters not being revealed is a terrible thing lol.

That's why it's important to get as wide a sampling of characters as possible. This is how the game is designed, so that those who experiment more can learn more. Would you be happier if we massclaimed character info later in the cycle to try to catch someone in a lie?

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Shoco is still scummy. Nothing he's said has changed that for me. Gheb is scum, but we should hold off on removing him for a bit. At least until tomorrow, I think another match phase's results should be on the table so we can try and draw some patterns. Soup I think is town that's really getting fed up with this game. I understand, there is so little we can actually do it's frustrating. Kantrip I don't know, I don't think he's been around recently.

Why is gheb scum and don't use PP's case at all as a basis.

 

[Dooms]

It's up to scum to find those characters with banned moves though, and it's no guarantee that they will. Also, yes, scum can get into the winners bracket easily, but they still want to be in as good a shape as possible. These results are reflective of what they choose to do within the game and can be used to gain insight into their motivations.

No it doesn't. Good a shape as possible my buttox. Scum has no reason to force more wins than they need considering their banned moves. Also, having four players openly searching for characters with banned moves almost guarantees that they will easily find them all within 12 match phases. I'm sure there are less than 48 characters in this game (not willing to count lolol), so saying that "well they have to search for them lulz" is pointless.

Why would a player choose not to cheat as town or scum, though? Because they're nice guys? Once a player finally realizes that they have almost no reason to cheat, then bam. The only reason not to cheat would be if you're afraid to be found by the cop. Does that sound pro-town to you? Should sound null, since both factions are afraid to be found by the cop.

Anything you can apply to scum in this game regarding matches also applies to town. Scum wants to be in the top 8? So does town. Scum will use cheating to be in the top 8? So will town. The only difference would be that a scummy may lie for absolutely no reason. If they do that, then lucky for us, right? I doubt that will happen in this game because the scummy would have to be an absolute moron to lie.

But is it completely and statistically likely? The reads we can get here aren't gonna be 100% accurate, but they can be used in a supplemental manner similar to night actions.

It's one player playing against another. If I recall the results correctly, Pawn v Kantrip was close? A 2-1 and a 1-0? Correct me if I'm wrong, but even so, there is no reason why this isn't possible based on luck. Considering that there is literally no reason in the world to lie, I have no reason to believe that Pawn did this without cheating, since this is a possibility regardless of what you think.

I have no reason to listen to people that somehow think "IT'S NOT LIKELY THAT PAWN 2-0'D KANTRIP, SO THAT MAKES ME MORE SUSPICIOUS OF HIM" is anywhere near a reasonable logical statement.

 

[Dooms]

*I have no reason to believe that Pawn couldn't do this without cheating, since this is a possibility regardless of what you think.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

This is going in circles so I don't feel like continuing.

 

[Super Fabulous]

GLG's intro seems fine but I didn't really catch any scumreads/opinions from him. Can you do that when you have the time, thanks broski.

 

[pawndidater2]

One thing that stood out to me about gheb is him suddenly pulling a pity card out of his ass and leaving. Like he knew he was going to get killed so instead of trying to fix it he tried to find a legitimate reason to leave so nothing else he said could be taken as scummy.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

One thing that stood out to me about gheb is him suddenly pulling a pity card out of his *** and leaving. Like he knew he was going to get killed so instead of trying to fix it he tried to find a legitimate reason to leave so nothing else he said could be taken as scummy.

You don't know gheb too well do you?

 

[Super Fabulous]

Yeah I'm not going to doubt him just cuz he gave up. I'm only going to judge him on his previous actions and take the giving up as null. NO MERCY

 

[Super Fabulous]

Pawn does that mean you'd want him removed? (If so, when)

 

[pawndidater2]

You don't know gheb too well do you?

What do you think this is my third game and I'm pretty sure the first time I've played with him.

Pawn does that mean you'd want him removed? (If so, when)

Yeah, in another day or two. I just don't want to be too hasty about it only to realize he was going to be modkilled/we have a better option or whatever.

 

[Super Fabulous]

I assume you'd rather want Gheb removed instead of Shoco?

 

[Wots All This Then?]

What do you think this is my third game and I'm pretty sure the first time I've played with him.


Yeah, in another day or two. I just don't want to be too hasty about it only to realize he was going to be modkilled/we have a better option or whatever.

Gheb is a player who will get fed up with people when he feels he's being misinterpreted regardless of alignment.

 

[Super Fabulous]

That's null then.

 

[pawndidater2]

I assume you'd rather want Gheb removed instead of Shoco?

I'd be fine with either.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

That's what I was trying to say?

 

[pawndidater2]

Bye: WATT

 

[Super Fabulous]

Ah ok, my bad. Pawn, is that why you scumread Gheb?

 

[Wots All This Then?]

L3 iirc on the bye count.

 

[pawndidater2]

That's not the only reason, WATT just told me not to repeat stuff and that was the first thing that came to mind.

 

[pawndidater2]

Of course I'm still not entirely sure why Gheb waited until the hotel room to leave. To me that says he wanted me to tell everyone but I'm not sure how that would benefit him.

 

[Super Fabulous]

Then why haven't you stated the other reasons, Watt asked you why Gheb was scum and you only gave that reason. >_>

 

[Super Fabulous]

Just say what you think.

 

[pawndidater2]

Because I pretty much just followed along with what other people were saying and didn't see any reason to contradict it.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

I said don't use PP's case as a reference. That leaves all of his play up to your interpretation.

 

[Super Fabulous]

State what you agree with or just state what makes you think Gheb is scum or both.

 

[Kantrip]

Bye: WATT

Request switch to Room 1

Just throwing these down before I leave for my V/LA. Will be back Monday.

 

[Shun Goku Satsu Rake]

Rake tackle my reread points in there? talk to me about the posts I specified K?

which number again ?

 

[Wots All This Then?]

post 1729 iirc.

which number again ?

 

[Shun Goku Satsu Rake]

nvm 1729 hitting it now