Koopa VS Kefka -- The Endless Tournament ends! Who took home the prize?

[Wots All This Then?]

match phase ends tomorrow and is one of 2 phases where we are allowed to actually talk in thread. read 651 if you need help with the mechanics.
Also we're still waiting on ryker's replacement to be found so try not to do that unless you can actually find one asap.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Also over night We get to talk in hotel rooms so you can actually have people catch you up overnight if necessary.(You're in PP's room so this might actually help you out)

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Oh thank goodness. I might need to. I'm realllllly far behind, but I'll try the best I can.

Can we still lynch someone?

 

[Wots All This Then?]

That's morning phase only.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

But yea, we do have the one shot removal still available.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Okay, both are good and we should use both to our advantage. Thank you wots, apologies to everyone, I'll get started reading at where the hell I was tomorrow and I'll go from there.

I decided to stay in because I <3 my hotel room (Red Ryu/PP)

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Okay, both are good and we should use both to our advantage. Thank you wots, apologies to everyone, I'll get started reading at where the hell I was tomorrow and I'll go from there.

I decided to stay in because I <3 my hotel room (Red Ryu/PP)

Erm. We don't have a lynch this game. One shot Removal is the only majority vote type deal for getting rid of scum.
And it can only be used during morning phase of cycle one(so day phase-morning phase-2 is the earliest we can use it now) sorry if I wasn't clear

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Erm. We don't have a lynch this game. One shot Removal is the only majority vote type deal for getting rid of scum.
And it can only be used during morning phase of cycle one(so day phase-morning phase-2 is the earliest we can use it now) sorry if I wasn't clear

Oh... ****. That changes things a bit then. I need to read and see over the mechanic, but I assume we still lynch the scummiest person.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Oh... ****. That changes things a bit then. I need to read and see over the mechanic, but I assume we still lynch the scummiest person.

That's the plan. Like I said, for mechanics read 651. http://smashboards.com/threads/koop...-at-noon-eastern.337719/page-17#post-15665352

 

[Picture Perfect]

Underlined, it is much different from his newbie play (although, he was scum in his newbie, yet he was newbie scum there). Rake was there as I was so I can understand why he also sees it. So basically my point is that it is just un-natural of him to be playing this way. You say he is too new, yes, but then that is why it makes us go "wat da". This is unlike PJB who I feel has just played a few games and has naturally gotten better, and isn't just DEFENSIVE pjb. But this is Pawn, who just came out of one or two games. He shouldn't have enough experience to GIVE us the feel that he does. (This is why I got the careful vibe, or that he was being fed what to do, and I AM trying to read the cop read thing along with it. This is not paranoia. This is a vibe.) Yet you say that we'll be able to notice in time, so I will let that happen and hopefully you manage to see it. I will drop this for now but if you don't want to see more talking about pawn who you feel is newb town, I urge you to read that game. Please. So you can at least understand where we are coming from. I will still keep my eye on him.

The thing is, I don't see the vibe. Maybe I haven't looked at him hard enough but I don't sense any ounce of carefulness in his posts. He has no one guiding him in this because he cannot communicate (unless he and Gheb are scum together--possible, but at the time in the sight of another member, though not now). How could a newer player know exactly what to do to even give you this? Let alone keep it up for this long---wouldn't they have botched it by now? And if they are scum, won't they botch it down the road as we remove mate after mate and he's left with no one to guide him?

I mean, you suggest this again and again but I can't see how he's even being careful in the first place. Him saying "I guess" to a read doesn't sound like him being careful, it sounds like him acknowledging a point. I'm sorry I'm not budging on this but you have to show me more than what you have if you want me to believe.

And no, I'm not reading another game. Not for the sake of a single read that we should be able to get down the road anyway.

 

[Picture Perfect]

we tied so we choose another move and i chose poorly.

I got a color buff in round 2 , after i chose my move there was a tie. I'm inclined to believe gheb didn't cheat, as he said he woulodn't , but i haven't analyzed colors or w/e. I suppose thats how you tell ? Nabe didnt say anything during, so i think we be good.

Doublecheck the OP. I wanna ask what colors but then I don't want that information out there if it's not necessary to state.

 

[Picture Perfect]

as to why i read him as such, it's kinda just a gut feel like i got in Mass Effect mafia. I'm only bothered by what made gheb take the more opinionated side of liking me, a position that his explanation kinda lacked in(it wasn't bad or misthought but it felt odd), like baseline.

while i won't argue the merits of a gutread, why aren't you pushing this further? gheb has explained little of his actions and i can't see how "he's not-scum, ergo he's town" is a succinct or good explanation.

Beyond that I don't see scum gheb getting into all these pointless fights when it only hurts his thread appearance to do that,

he really hasn't until he picked a bone with us and thought he could push us over with no basis. gheb's presence in the thread has been little and the interaction's barely been there up until this phase. he made comments about someone early but the rest of the morning phase was spent commenting on how scumhunting was worthless and how we should be talking about mechanics, at least as i remember.

plus i've felt gheb has contributed to getting the thread forward.

how in the slightest has gheb been anything more than antagonistic at worst and null at best

 

[Picture Perfect]

**** it, done isoreading gheb, dropping my results in my next post.

 

[Picture Perfect]

Okay, so in the lull time, I put everything on hold and started an ISO on Gheb. While I'm convinced of his scumminess, I wanted to make sure I was accurate in my reasoning and I also wanted to put that reasoning out there in broad daylight why he has to be the play. Here is the entire list of his posts with a one-line summary by me:

Spoiler

#35: Gheb commenting on mechanics
#39: Fluff
#42: Fluff
#44: More mechanics talk
#64: More mechanics talk. Noticing a trend?
#66: More mechanics talk. These are actually giving me a bit of insight into his intentions, to be gotten into later.
#114: Hey look, this ****** actually makes a stance for once! In it, he analyzes a post by Soup against Kantrip early on in the game, and calls him out for his fallacies in logic. Kind of an easy stance at that point in the game but I don't really find that relevant.
#250: Gheb says it's great to scumhunt but questions the point of it with no lynches. Again, no actual stances about players, despite a lot happening.
#309: And as soon as someone shows up to talk mechanics, he's all over that **** like white on rice or black on toast or something something racist something something i'm going to hell
#340: Questions why someone wants to go into a stance.
#343: Mechanics discussion, but also explains a lack of motivation due to it being an irregularity of a mafia game. The interesting thing to note is that he believes forming town reads and majorities fall flat, which I think is weird. D1 is generally when the majority forms, regardless of how the game works, and creating alliances at this point in time is helpful to town as we get trusted sources of information and guidance.
#354: His bye choices, which I have to assume are townreads for him. Not explained, but was never questioned, and honestly these were the common picks.
#622: Throws the bye, promises content later.
#673: Mechanics talk, but raises an interesting point.
#674: "Not that one's play should be restricted to it" pffft that's all this ******'s done. jokes aside, radarada "you can read me despite talking mechanics". i think, in this game, fair defense, but a lot of mechanics talk may or may not come down to playing out first before we actually see the intentions of the suggestion.
#675: Holy ****. At one point in this game, Gheb actually fleshed out a read. Jokes aside again, this is where his hate for my slot started and his logic for it is simply because I said that mechanics were bad which was not my point and hasn't been my point. I'll revisit this later, because the reasons for his distaste for my slot, if this is even what they are, is the most telling thing about this slot.
#676: More mechanics talk.
#727: Continues to throw **** at my slot because I'm not conforming to his train of thought.
#740: Couple of one-liners, whatever.
#743: Misconstrues my point, granted I was angry at the time so it may have been missed but at no point did I say mechanics discussions were bad.
#776: Doesn't want to talk about lunch. Falls in line with his "let's not share information publically" trend.
#784: Resuggests an idea he posted early in the game, but it's based on a mechanic he either doesn't understand completely (only one cop investigation at the end of Cycle 1) or is trying to dupe us into doing, either or.
#788: Mechanics discussion, continuing the "Let's not share information" trend.
#789: Claims he's read the OP a couple of times, yet still has so made so many errors in his reading of it.
#799: More mechanics discussion.
#805: Claims he's lost with the game.
#858: Mechanics discussion and here starts the heel-digging. Strangely reverses his opinion on not saying if he cheated/didn't cheat.
#869: Drops a read (doesn't explain it), and more mechanics talk.
#871: More comments on the Rake read.
#935: HE FLESHED OUT ANOTHER ONE BOYS.
#938: Drops a readlist.
#940: Whines about game mechanics
#941: Explains self-meta. Whatever.
#1033: Actually posts content! Real ****ing content! Talks about the idea of KantripvSoup as a SvS.
#1037: A response to the pressure on his scumpicks being a scumteam together.
#1146: Gheb is bad at reading rules.
#1147: I have no comment because I have no idea what the actual point of this post was.
#1148: Continuing on KantripvSoup as SvS
#1149: Same thing.
#1166: Confirms scumread on Shoco, never says why.
#1183: Whatever.
#1214: Returns to his attack on us because J posted a large post about people being ******** and trying to actually move the game along since our presence had been 0 at that time.
#1215: Talks about Shoco.
#1226: But when someone else talks about mechanics, Gheb says it's less relevant than dickfights in thread.
#1231: Says his scumreads again, but again never drops it.
#1234: how high do you have to be to get baited by soup
#1242: Asks Fab to stop talking to Soup trying to dig information out of Kantrip to help his Kantrip read.
#1363: Votes to remove us.
#1367: Continues to throw mud at us.
#1368: Claims to have been pushing why it has to be us/Shoco.
#1370: More throwing of mud at our slot.

(ASIDE: Yeh I'm totally not doing anything more than just nudging people I disagree with. I'm just a bump on the log trying to be the game's coach. Why else would I be dropping an ISO on the scummiest slot in the game?)
#1377: Explains possibility of his scumpicks being a team together.
#1379: ******** about people thinking he's not doing much.
#1397: Once again shoves his scumreads down our throats again.
#1443: It's like all this ***** does is sling mud.
#1447: The most hilarious mafia post I've ever read. I can't summarize douchebaggedry of this magnitude. "I speak truths that people don't want to hear so they point fingers at me and shout 'he's scum'," Christ, give me a break.

And, true to his word, that's the last thing he's posted!

So, first, before I reach my conclusions as to why this ****** is scum, lemme address three points first and foremost.

1) Gheb has posted more in this game than I thought. The problem is, a lot of it is discussion of mechanics, and the "how do we do this thing" type of deal, so it feels like his presence is less than it actually is. I pegged him to have at most 50 posts and he has definitely surpassed that number. This is the power of saying multiple one-liners and mechanical comments.

2) Gheb has explained more than I thought. While he still has yet to comment on Shoco scum or his actual reasons for Kantrip or Soup actually being scum in the first place, he did explain why he thinks both are possibly SvS, and why he dislikes my slot. He has also explained why he thinks Fab, WOTT, and PJB are town, but everyone thinks those guys are town. His reasoning for Raketown is still ass, by the way. In the end, his explanations are still lacking, though.

3) Gheb's understanding of the rules of this game are completely flawed on a surface level. Whether this is intentional or not, I can't tell.

NOW THAT THAT'S OVER.

A majority of Gheb's early play was focused on discussion of the mechanics of this game and attempting to throw as many possible strategies out there early. You can tell this because a great deal of his posts are focused on this. A little ways into the match phase is about where the flip switched and he has become almost completely hyperfocused on pushing my slot and Shoco's straight into the guillotine. The match phase is also where he starts digging his heels into the dirt and being completely stubborn and uncooperative (Post #858 is the first time I noted it).

Why?

Well, considering his push on me is the one thing in this game he's discussed the most that isn't ****ing mechanics, let's look at that!

Honestly I don't care that he's pushing me, but his logic behind it is what makes it so telling. Up to that point, he had been pushing for people to talk about mechanics repeatedly. A majority of posts before the point where he drops that read are either tagged as "mechanics discussion" or pushing towards it and downplaying scumhunting. Yet the second I show up and say "YO GUYS WE STILL HAVE A TOWN WINCON, LET'S WORK TOGETHER," he cracks. Let me quote it again for the sake of ease:

While PP has a point that not all scumbags are inactive I wouldn't be surprised if 2 of them are. In fact, I don't see what's exactly unlikely about it and this is where I'm finding myself having issues with PP's "rant" post. Because the people he mentioned as possibly scummy for neglecting scumhunt in favor of investigating the mechanics are exactly the people who have tried to make input despite having difficulties to hunt scum in a traditional sense. I find that iffy. Why would he discourage that kind of approach without even knowing whether it's worse in the first place? I would actually claim quite the opposite and find it unsettling that his rant has gotten so much positive feedback when it's largely an attempt to discourage people who have been trying to get things done.
Personally, I would prefer the tourney cop to take a look at that slot at the end of cycle 1 to see whether he's MAF or not - if not, we have a useful clear to hand out a bye to. Seems like win-win to me. I would also like to see the cop reviewing soup's bracket matches during the match phase to prevent him from cheating. Though not as problematic a slot as PP he has done poorly enough overall that he can go asap, especially if he's matched up with PJB, Fab or WATT in the bracket.

This might be the most telling thing about Gheb's slot and it's entirely why I'm convinced he's scum. The first and foremost thing to note is that he got this post completely wrong. The entire post was dedicated to assholes refusing to play the game and just drop readlists without giving us information or explanation as to why and especially to slots like Ruy, Soup, and Kantrip, who were, at the time, aiming to complete their individual goals over the sake of playing to town's overarching wincon. These slots were being detrimental to town and while I focused on them primarily, I did namedrop Gheb because, at the time, his impact was minimal and all I could remember out of his slot was "let's discuss mechanics let's discuss mechanics why are we scumhunting let's discuss mechanics!" I thought this strange if only for the comments where he kept saying scumhunting was worthless, so I included him in the list of people the post targeted. I never called him scum for it, just like I never called Soup, Kantrip, Ruy, or Rake scum for it. I simply called the behavior scummy because it is quite literally playing like an indy.

The above quote is his response to that post. Where I spend 99% of the post talking about people pursuing individual goals over the town wincon, he somehow draws out of it that I think mechanical discussion is bad when I don't even mention anything about mechanics. His entire point is that mechanics discussion is the key to victory and because I believe that hunting the gogdamn scum and getting others to cooperate is more important than people playing to individual wincons (I said nothing about mechanics in that post), I'm somehow scum. Let me repeat that: because I emphasized working together to find scum, I am somehow scum. In Gheb's logic, scumhunting is bad and he wants us to focus on mechanics. WHAT?

And this is the core of the argument I have against his slot because it has effectively given me a scope on the rest of his play. He pushed entirely for mechanics prior to this point and even questioned why people were scumhunting (#250). On an objective scale, up until my large rant, he was constantly trying to derail back into mechanics because, on a surface level, he believed that's what it would take for town to win, and he had no problem with that because no one was fighting against that. The second that I showed up and namedropped him as one of the potential antagonists of this thread, he got defensive and made the above post.

And it's obvious he felt pressured by it. He put a lot of time trying to stir discussion of the mechanics beforehand and the second some asshole shows up to say "YO GUYS WE NEED TO WORK TOGETHER AS TOWN" and saw how many people were positively responding to it, he felt threatened. It's so obvious he felt threatened. Look at the subject of his posts beforehand and afterwards. After that point, he gradually shifts away from mechanics discussion and eventually into nothing but blind hatred for my slot and Shoco's slot and constantly demands that we be removed from the game immediately. He has gone from discussing nothing but mechanics to nothing but saying who he thinks he is scum without substantiating as to why or how he got those reads in the first place, to the point where he actually tells soup that his interest in Kantrip's match is less important than his crusade against his scumpicks. His frustration up to the point where he realizes so many people think he's scum becomes more and more obvious and when he does make said realization, he cracks completely.

Why does he react like this? This is obviously about thread control because he didn't realize people thought he was scum up until recently. Why does it matter? While we know nothing about the scumteam, look at this roster. There is no one in this game Gheb normally defers to. There's no Swiss, no FF, no OS, no old guard player that he trust. But I've also seen townGheb still be cooperative with lesser players for his own reasons. He'll call people town and actively try to work with them for his own agenda. He'll speak his mind and still be stubborn but he'll still cooperate. That's not happening here. That is the exact opposite of what's happening here. While he's still pushing, he's not cooperating with people and he's stopped explaining anything. Thread control is so important that he's fighting the one guy with the alternative philosophy to the point where he almost outright said "scumhunting is bad, mechanics discussion is good" and became agitated when people responded to my train of thought and not his. TownGheb has something to gain by talking about strategy but I don't see why he still didn't push for this while allowing for space for scumhunting to continue. It doesn't make sense. Meanwhile, scumGheb gains everything from distracting town from scumhunting and cooperating to keep talking in circles about how to play the game while also baiting town into giving up their strategies so he can give his team the best shot at countering it.

While the possibility for townGheb to be what we're dealing with does exist, I don't find it likely. I'm not 100% sure of this but I am at least 90%. In no light can I see the above behavior, even if I am wrong about Gheb's reactions, to be one of a townie's. At no point should town be saying "Scumhunting is bad, mechanics discussion is good, let's not do the former and we should do plenty of the latter." Both can easily coexist because we shouldn't be allowing people we find scummy to be directing our course of actions. That is generally regarded as a bad move.

In short, Gheb's scum, and we should remove him first thing tomorrow.

 

[Picture Perfect]

tl;dr, gheb's scum because he at one point almost literally says "scumhunting is bad in a unconventional mafia game and we should discuss mechanics instead" and then continually gets madder the less people listen to him

the best thing about that post is that gheb'll never ****ing read it so he'll constantly be strawmanning me until he finally leaves the game

 

[Picture Perfect]

I'm putting my stamp of approval on everything Laundry just said. Yes that was a jumbo wall by him and Yes he did it all on his own with my over skype but not having me type it. So proud to see a wall that gorgeous.

Next up is me, Gheb. So get ready cuz I'm raring to go.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Damn that's a big post.
Want gheb to actually answer to it.

 

[Super Fabulous]

Oh thank goodness. I might need to. I'm realllllly far behind, but I'll try the best I can.

How far are you in reading now? Are you almost done? Also, you say you only just returned because of your room. Why was that, do you have an opinion on them or is it personal?

Also, what made you stop?

 

[Thirdkoopa]

How far are you in reading now? Are you almost done? Also, you say you only just returned because of your room. Why was that, do you have an opinion on them or is it personal?

Also, what made you stop?

I'll reply to this. Let's have some fun.
1. I'm on around Page 20; whereever I stopped posting
2. No.
3. It's more personal and that I like them both as people (I still forget if I still have Laundry/rob on Skype) but that was just the final reason to return. The fact that there's problems replacing a player already and I don't want to force it on someone to replace and read 1.5k posts says enough.
4. I thought when we got to the rounds and we got told our cabins were open that this stopped and I stopped getting notifications from the thread. I know how bad that sounds and how convenient, but tis the truth.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

So, right now, has anything interesting actually happened in this phase? I mean, I know this is a mostly open setup so I probably haven't missed much asides from arguments (Well, I know that's most of Mafia, but still)

Wots All This Then: Do you feel you're doing good at catching people up on the mechanics that aren't me? What's the difference between the lynch we have now as opposed to a regular lynch?

Super Fabulous: If you had a Daykill that you had to use within 12 hours, who would you use it on?

WashedLaundry: Let's say you had to lynch someone, who would it be? Would you mind me bringing up what you said on reads in the hotel room to here? (I will also bring up my reads one way or another)

 

[Super Fabulous]

Super Fabulous: If you had a Daykill that you had to use within 12 hours, who would you use it on?

Gheb. What's your read on: Soup, Kantrip, Gheb, Rake, me.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

So, right now, has anything interesting actually happened in this phase? I mean, I know this is a mostly open setup so I probably haven't missed much asides from arguments (Well, I know that's most of Mafia, but still)

Wots All This Then: Do you feel you're doing good at catching people up on the mechanics that aren't me? What's the difference between the lynch we have now as opposed to a regular lynch?

gheb vs PP was a good thing to go over that is still happening now.
Soup vs Kantrip and Me vs Rake(was that this phase?) are also good to read.
I'm doing my best to get everyone thinking correctly about the mechanics(you, kantrip, Fab, Ryu etc) so yea I guess
Removal can only be used once per game, and it has to be in the morning phase of a day in cycle 1. That means we only have 5ish chances left to use it. Still takes majority vote to get off(7/13 iirc)

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Pawn speak. Tell me whatchu think of Gheb vs PP
Also there's only an hour left in this phase people unless Nabe is sleeping in or busy, so hurry up with this stuff

 

[Thirdkoopa]

So we have an hour left to do... what?

 

[Wots All This Then?]

At this point, discuss. Everyone's matches should be complete except for Soup's(because ryker is his opponent)
Actually, is your match complete?

 

[Super Fabulous]

Can you answer my question?

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Is that to me or Koopz?

 

[Super Fabulous]

To Koops.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

I was gonna say, I didn't see any questions aimed at me XD
Did anything happen in your hotel room over lunch worth noting Ran? Idr if you've already recapped that or not but it'd be cool to know.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

oh wait you switched rooms and ate single. nevermind the above.

 

[Super Fabulous]

The room will probably be me and pp bouncing off ideas. Maybe Ryu if he has things to say. Have no idea about koops.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Was talking about overthis past lunch phase

For what it's worth, I'm probably going to be grilling Rake(and I suspect PJB will get involved with that)

 

[Picture Perfect]

Damn that's a big post.
Want gheb to actually answer to it.

you weren't around then but any time anyone posted something longer than couple of paragraphs, gheb turned around and immediately called them scum because they couldn't sum up their points in a line or two

 

[Wots All This Then?]

you weren't around then but any time anyone posted something longer than couple of paragraphs, gheb turned around and immediately called them scum because they couldn't sum up their points in a line or two

Well.....damn.
Guess he got on EE and J's cases a lot then XD

 

[Picture Perfect]

WashedLaundry: Let's say you had to lynch someone, who would it be? Would you mind me bringing up what you said on reads in the hotel room to here? (I will also bring up my reads one way or another)

i just dropped this large iso on gheb that ends with "we should remove him tomorrow asap"

i totally wanna lynch wott.

totally.

 

[Picture Perfect]

EBWOP: As for your reads, sure, bring 'em here. I asked there because I could communicate with you guys there.

Well.....damn.
Guess he got on EE and J's cases a lot then XD

not ee because he thinks ee's good, but he did get on j's case a ****ton of times.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

How quick do you think we should remove Gheb though/ Like, asap, or just during the phase.
gonna go grab food and finish mowing but
Mod-does using removal before a bye is selected give us that perosn's flip immediately or at the end of the phase?

 

[Wots All This Then?]

that / should be a ?

 

[Picture Perfect]

How quick do you think we should remove Gheb though/ Like, asap, or just during the phase.

Depends on his response.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Trying to hit Gold 5 in league but let me catch up here.