Koopa VS Kefka -- The Endless Tournament ends! Who took home the prize?

[Wots All This Then?]

Dietz is reasonably caught up now. (yay)


Also I just had to:

All I can say to Shaco's posts about our slot is just... wow lol. Gonna get to some key questions and things I saw in thread.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Other head here and catching up(family weekend at the shore was fun though)

 

[Wots All This Then?]

The first line is the only benefit I can see from asking people where their room went to eat (full of WIFOM as it may be it's still information we could look at). But the thing is we gain the full benefit of that information if we want it by outing it cycle 6 , the last day to vote for our removal and the cycle at the end of which the tourney cop decides on another removal choice (cycle 5 if we want more time to debate). Any time before that and it's just giving away any of our non-randomness in lunch choices, either by human nature or actual game-plan, to the mafia for small to no immediate benefit.


@Underlined: I'm curious, why do you care where solo people went to eat? They'll either be poisoned or they won't be and it's all up to them, and that will be obvious information when they're either sick or they aren't, after that it's meaningless unless you're trying to read the data for an ulterior motive.

Ryu I'm still waiting on a response to both parts of this.

ew

but ruy is ew too

but ruy sucks

but this reply sucks

If ruy sucks so much, then why is he on your "Don't really care about" list in the next post you make (not counting that post with only that picture again).

good **** guys scumhunting because thats so possible this game in day phases (Y) keep it up

kantrip has been a scumread since the get-go, his wording and actions just dont read like someone who wants to progress the game
wott looks like he's mad frontin', putting in effort but really dont see any reason to see it as town and some of the remarks even from the beginning of the game iirc just ewww
and uh pawn i read as a noobscum from his posts. could be noobtown but it read more like noobscum to me so hey.

Xonar, how are you this bad at mafia? You obviously don't even believe your first quote here as evidenced by your very next post and the fact you already have a reads list.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Hey guys. Why is this taking so long.

I want us to talk about the possibility of us reporting on matches to make it go quicker.

I'm fine with outing results/cheat and not cheat, but not moves or characters.

I've been neglecting this because this game has no real scumhunting, except reads based on dumb ****. That said, I'll catch up in like 40 mins or so, then give more thoughts. Coolbeans.

just saying but rake should play every game this way damn

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Does anyone know if, when you are cheating, you still play out the match?

I agree with your points on soup and think we're bickering like we have done before and that I should drop it. Still don't know what I missed answering though.

I want someone to answer my questions that may or may not condemn shoco

I can confirm you still play your round if you choose to cheat. Our match with Shaco went like this:

Round 1 we chose our counterpick and they chose their main so we got a color advantage (one of our moves had a secondary color attached, one that was next to the original color on the wheel). We decided to let the round play out legit and not cheat. Shaco took the game with a color that beat both of the color buffed move colors that we pick. I sort of suspect he cheated here, but can't confirm it.


Second round we picked our main and they picked their counterpick so this time they got a color buff. We decided to cheat since I had suspected they cheated in our first round and didn't have any reason to townread Shoco so far. We lost again and were shown a color result, but that means for sure Shaco at least regular cheated in round 2 as otherwise we would have automatically won.


So basically I wish it was that cut and dry, but just because he won through cheating doesn't mean he's necessarily scum or using banned moves etc. (though based on his new posts I'd wager it's pretty likely he is scum lol)

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Really? I've spend most of the last few days explaining why the play has to be between PP and Shoco. I can dig out quotes but I'd prefer you to actually read tbh.

I'd actually like to see those quotes if you don't mind.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Scumread on Shoco cemented.

but why?

That stuff is null. The comments make me lean towards the negative side. Is there anything unclear?

Everything.

Calm yourself. Pretend you're a one shot vig. But the town has no lynches.

I want to remove him. But I think if it's possible, it would be best the cop go there. Then removal. Gotta think long run. Keep the obv scum in and just use the safest options. I mean we got little options, so I feel we have to be safe.

We can only use removal in cycle 1 though, which is before the tourney cop makes his guess. If we're gonna use it, we have to use it first. [uqote=OP]

• On Removal: During any Morning Phase in Cycle 1, players may vote to Remove one player from the game permanently. This is done by simple majority, like a Lynch in traditional Mafia games. Votes towards Removal must be specified as such, or they will be counted as the regular Morning Phase votes (Bye/Suspicion) for that Cycle. Removal can only be used once in the whole game. Removal does not have to be used, and should be used carefully if at all, since the loss of even one Town or MAF member can shift the tides dramatically.[/quote]

ok i quit prematurely







basically this all reads grimy as **** to me hes way jumpy on very little or very stupid things even on people he has townread (PP IIRC?) just keepin options open

okay now Im really off.
If you don't like me doing gutreads this game then whatever nerd

Where did I ever say anything about PP being scum?
How is it jumpy? How is jumpiness scummy in this case?

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Just received the note that I won the set against Rake.

Rake-did you cheat at all?

Very well, PP / Shoco are borderline confirmed scum, you're looking good to go as well. Just gotta see how the whole thing with Kantrip losing his set is turning out.

Confirmed is a pretty strong word there Gheb.

Underlined, what does this matter? I also have explained that the discussion would be moot without having a tangible reason to talk about it. You are saying you find Pawn fishy because your scumread, Kantrip, lost all three times. You don't have a solid reason for suspecting Pawn, unless you want to. If you mean something else, then please clarify. Otherwise you finding Pawn suspicious is foil hat. (Basically you think he may be scum or cheating because your scumread Kanty lost all three times, since Scum should easily win in your eyes, and I find this reasoning bad)

Again, my point is that it is odd that you are thinking that may be the case instead of thinking it is null until we are given further information.

You're misunderstanding him here. Soups reconsidering Kantrip because he lost. He isn't finding pawn scummy for it. Mafia has almost no way to lose if they think they can get off banned moves/cheat, and if kantrip lose then he obviously didn't cheat since Pawn said he didn't cheat.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Fab, how about you stop being responsive to soup's attempt to derail this thread?

How is it derailing?

What you should be asking yourselves is "why is soup using match results as an excuse to change his reads".

This is actually htre closest thing we'll get to NA's/confirmed information this game, and we should definitely use it to influence our reads.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Matches'll give us the best information in terms of finding scum. Not necessarily a cop guilty but more like a reporter "Not Home." We'll have information regarding who won, who lost, and get an idea who cheated and who didn't.

Agreed.

Throw Gheb on there.

I can do with that. Can probably take Ryu off of there after further reflection.

Mafia'll have information regardless. We've gotta pick what we wanna talk about, but fearing scum finding out makes it rather hard. What're they gonna do, shoot us? Predict where we'll go next when we have 10+ places to choose from? If we gain something from talking about it, then I don't see the problem with talking about it. Saying "reads won't win this game, information will" when you're completely stonewalling information shared, any bit at all, seems contradictory.

I doidn't think we needed to be outing this information yet. Like you said, we do need to be selective about it, and i thought keeping mafia in the dark about our particular intentions for choosing a place should be kept secret until a restaraunt gets poiosned. In which case, all the people who went there(pretty sure the way nabe phrased it on daystart shows that we'll be publicly informed as to who gets poisoned) should claim why they went there and provide a recap of the events leading to that choice in the hotel room, with the scummiest players putting that story forward first.

I'd prefer not to use our removal until it's obvious that we're going to be moving into cycle 2. After this match phase, it is impossible for us to hit that as we have 6 players with 3 points, 1 with 2, and 6 with 1. That's no clear 8-man bracket. I haven't run the math yet with D2 involved.

Pretty sure Nabe said cycle one lasts at least 6 day phases.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

I have no idea why those bits are striked out.

with the scummiest players putting that story forward first.

Picture Perfect said: ↑

I'd prefer not to use our removal until it's obvious that we're going to be moving into cycle 2. After this match phase, it is impossible for us to hit that as we have 6 players with 3 points, 1 with 2, and 6 with 1. That's no clear 8-man bracket. I haven't run the math yet with D2 involved.​

Pretty sure Nabe said cycle one lasts at least 6 day phases.​

 

[Wots All This Then?]

I dislike PP more than soup right now, but I can't put my finger on why. Call it gut, I guess. Both heads are covering for each other creepily well. Insulting people who attack the other head, but never insulting for themselves. It's like a chainsaw defense but within their own slot. They are never disagreeing about anything, and it doesn't seem like they have all that much time for contacting each other. J made it sound like Washed was absent and J himself was on his phone so couldn't have much discussion with Washed. The two just always seem to have identical stances and cover each others backs in a way that seems disingenuous. They are playing a really strong town game at the surface level, but I don't like it.

That's a pretty big assumption to make wrt communication. There's been very few times when me and dietz have been online at the same time for example, but we still stay updated with each other.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Mkay, I'm all caught up now and I'll wait for other people to post before continuing on this stream of thoughts.

 

[Picture Perfect]

I disagree with this by principle and think I have a tendency to think too deep into things. Surface level analysis isn't one of my problems, although this game I'll admit I have not been going in-depth like I do in other games.

It's shown, trust me. You've played this game reading things on a very shallow level.

 

[Picture Perfect]

A cop clear, yes. A match, no. I still find it null. You'll have to explain why you would find it telling one way or another and how it should affect our reads.

No, I'm not going to look past it. If it feels fake to me I'll look at why he's saying 'i'm so mad at this game' when he doesn't seem to be, but rather just saying it. If you have experience with him (more than once) faking AtE as TOWN, then I'll consider trying to look past it because then he'd just do this regardless of alignment. >_> But for now, no. Not when I don't expect him to do this **** as town.

It's the fact that he lost that hard. Generally, one would assume scum would win, at least a little bit. He played fair when, as scum, he honestly has no reason to because he needs to get into the bracket somehow unless his team has given up all hope on him and have cut bait. Given that they can't communicate, I doubt it they've said anything to this or really to each other. It's nothing incredibly major but, again, it's still worth looking into and weighing into your reads. Losing that hard should definitely put Kantrip in a better light.

I'm saying look past it because you're getting caught up in it and not looking at his other actions. You're looking at something you know he does as either alignment and allowing it to distract you from what he's doing. C'mon Ran, this ain't rocket science. You're assuming he's faking it but I see no justification, just assumption on your part.

 

[Picture Perfect]

Also, when it comes to soup, I feel the really little things are what matter when reading him. He plays well as scum. Only way to find him as scum I feel is to rack up those little things and just see the whole picture. I mean come on, look at how he played BIM. He was acting weird there, and is why I always have to think "Is he a frustrated townie or trying to fake it to just debunk arguments made against him" etc. I don't think any part of his play should just be 'look past'.

Given his play this game, I don't see how you could possibly suggest he's scum based on the bolded.

 

[Picture Perfect]

Super Fab, what do you think the chances are for PP being scum with soup?

Also, tell me what you think of PP independently of soup.

See you keep reaching for this ****, and it's entirely why I think you were originally holding us at armslength. You constantly had us as a townlean until you just randomly "thought about it" and put us as scum and have been pushing it ever since, despite no actual weight to it other than "we were gone where'd you go must be scum lopl." I don't exactly know what you expect from me, I fell off the earth because I assumed not much was going to happen and put it out of my mind. J got busy with two jobs. You still refuse to look at my intentions or my play at any part of this and tell me an actual ****ing reason why I'm scum.

 

[Picture Perfect]

Remove: Picture Perfect

Ain't morning phase.

Because believe me, I'd vote to remove your ass too right now.

 

[Picture Perfect]

I dislike PP more than soup right now, but I can't put my finger on why. Call it gut, I guess. Both heads are covering for each other creepily well. Insulting people who attack the other head, but never insulting for themselves. It's like a chainsaw defense but within their own slot. They are never disagreeing about anything, and it doesn't seem like they have all that much time for contacting each other. J made it sound like Washed was absent and J himself was on his phone so couldn't have much discussion with Washed. The two just always seem to have identical stances and cover each others backs in a way that seems disingenuous. They are playing a really strong town game at the surface level, but I don't like it.

"I have nothing tangible, I just don't like the way the slot's working together because they're a gogdamn hydra that are cooperating and communicating."

really

 

[Picture Perfect]

Really? I've spend most of the last few days explaining why the play has to be between PP and Shoco. I can dig out quotes but I'd prefer you to actually read tbh.

lopl no you haven't

 

[Picture Perfect]

OK I guess I'll agree with that. He's doing a lot of "hey get your ****ing act together guys!"-shouting but he's not doing **** except nudging people he disagrees with.

I'd love to remove you right now. I'd love to remove Rake as well. You two are my top two scumpicks. I'm sorry I haven't figured out a way to push this game along but what the **** have you done besides sit in the shadows and be an antagonistic whenever you possibly can? You've been bothered for justification the entire game and have given nothing behind your thoughts, yet you call me out for doing nothing in the slightest. You push these retardfresh reads down the throats of everyone else and yet you can't possibly say why or how. When called out, your only response has been "ain't it obvious?" if you even respond at all. At what point have you done anything of value?

If anyone views this slot as town, please enlighten me as to why. I for the life of me can't see how anyone can.

 

[Picture Perfect]

Yeah I have trouble seeing Gheb as mates with any of my other scum suspects which makes me think I'm either way off base or Gheb is town after all. Occam's razor points to the latter.

Gheb has a natural tendency to bus as scum.

 

[Picture Perfect]

Where the **** is the idea coming from that I haven't been doing much?

Do you want me to post an ISOread on you because it's clear as ****ing day in hindsight and I know I'm not alone on this.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

glad I'm not the only slot that's gonna post a million times in a row today.

 

[Picture Perfect]

Also now that I think of it, it feels like J just let Washed take the reigns of the hydra. Because keep in mind that their town read on me came from WL first. I think he's letting him do his thing?

I'll say this is valid only because J has barely been around. I have done a majority of the posting but I make an attempt to talk to J when he's here and he does read from his phone and tell me things whenever he has the chance, outside of my absence for the past 4 days or so.

I have to look at J's last few posts to see what they say.

In fact, J. Can you give me your reasoning for your read on us? Just want to know if you are on par with WL. You might have talked about us but I don't remember. :3

Get to it, bud.

 

[Picture Perfect]

glad I'm not the only slot that's gonna post a million times in a row today.

loploplopl

 

[Picture Perfect]

Why would I push soup though? Are you reading what I'm saying? PP bothers me more than soup, and that does not rely on any sort of connection. I see the validity of souptown just as much as soupscum if PP is scum. Seeing one of them flip won't help me read the other. What's more, we don't have lynches to just throw out and look at flips. We need to be certain the first time.

but you don't have any validity on ppscum so what's the point

 

[Picture Perfect]

ebwop: i mean, ****, you keep saying "we need to be certain" when your only certainty is a gutread at best.

 

[Picture Perfect]

I also think it's important we all update our reads so we all know where we are going thought wise. I'll update mine later.

Scum: Gheb, Rake
Don't Trust: Shoco
Null: Ryker, Kantrip, Koops
Town-lean: Ruy
Town: WOTT, PJB, Fab, Pawn, Soup

 

[Wots All This Then?]

oh yea I need to do that.
Scum-Gheb/Shoco
scumlean Rake
Null Kantrip/TTK/Ryker
nulltown Ryu Pawn
town PP PJB Soup Fab

 

[Picture Perfect]

Alright given what Kantrip said as true that would make the worst case scenario matches between Town and Scum 7 either with or without removal used. This makes our decision on removal hilariously easy.

We should use our removal no matter what, as not doing so gives us no mathematical advantage in bracket despite Nabe's caution in OP.


I'm sure most of you already assumed we were going to try to remove someone at some point anyways, but it's good to know this is the best possible move from what we know as well.

it puts us at a mathematical disadvantage should we hit town and even worse if we hit the cop. we also are in no rush to use it and we won't have a clear-cut bracket by tomorrow either, so let's not quite worry about it.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

lol, we're not gonna hit the cop! Even if we did, somehow, choose the cop for removal, he would claim!

That could potentially result in a hairy counterclaim scenario, but I feel like our handle on the game couldn't be SO TERRIBLE that we really don't know the difference between fakeclaiming scum, and forrealz cop.

 

[Picture Perfect]

you're right, my bad

 

[Wots All This Then?]

waiting on an answer to 1410 PP.
People should get on claiming wrt matches. No character information though.

 

[Picture Perfect]

Agreed.

I can do with that. Can probably take Ryu off of there after further reflection.

I doidn't think we needed to be outing this information yet. Like you said, we do need to be selective about it, and i thought keeping mafia in the dark about our particular intentions for choosing a place should be kept secret until a restaraunt gets poiosned. In which case, all the people who went there(pretty sure the way nabe phrased it on daystart shows that we'll be publicly informed as to who gets poisoned) should claim why they went there and provide a recap of the events leading to that choice in the hotel room, with the scummiest players putting that story forward first.

I thought your compromise with Ruy was pretty intelligent, so yeh, I'm down for this as well.

 

[Picture Perfect]

pjb, thoughts on gheb?

 

[Super Fabulous]

Scum: Gheb, Kantrip
Scumlean: Soup
OGMEOU: Pawn
Null: Shoco, Ryker, Rake, Koops (btw he's my fave char in Paper Mario: TTYD)
Town-lean: PJB, Ruy
Town: PP, Wott

I will keep Soup as a later option, as I feel Gheb and then Kantrip are good options before him and we can find more things out by then. Right now I'm not liking Kantrip's reasoning for PPscum, and I just find it odd that he's not feeling Gheb anymore because of Gheb possibly not being connected. He's not letting a connection sway him when it comes to PP + Soup but when it comes to Gheb he lets it sway him to a town read. It kind of feels like he is trying to throw up dirt to him as Gheb is doing. Whenever we can use Removal I'm fine with it going on Gheb.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Removal is morning phases of cycle one only.
meaning at earliest we can't use it till tomorrow.

 

[Super Fabulous]

It's the fact that he lost that hard. Generally, one would assume scum would win, at least a little bit. He played fair when, as scum, he honestly has no reason to because he needs to get into the bracket somehow unless his team has given up all hope on him and have cut bait. Given that they can't communicate, I doubt it they've said anything to this or really to each other. It's nothing incredibly major but, again, it's still worth looking into and weighing into your reads. Losing that hard should definitely put Kantrip in a better light.

I'm saying look past it because you're getting caught up in it and not looking at his other actions. You're looking at something you know he does as either alignment and allowing it to distract you from what he's doing. C'mon Ran, this ain't rocket science. You're assuming he's faking it but I see no justification, just assumption on your part.

Alright. I want to say that if I'm suspecting someone, I'm not going to really rely on mechanics to guide my read. But I won't ignore it, I'll look at it too. It just won't heavily impact me as I have said.

Alright, fine. I'll play the waiting game with him. I'll try to look at his other actions too. But then I'll try to avoid his 'frustration' altogether, then.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Gonna grab food, bbl.