Koopa VS Kefka -- The Endless Tournament ends! Who took home the prize?

[#HBC | Joker]

kantrip, your AtE looks kind of gross.

Go compose yourself, brah. I don't wanna scumread you just because you're getting flustered. Get your head in the game, cuz you're a better townplayer than this.

I don't wanna hear **** like "wah, why should I even try?!" from anybody this game. I don't give a **** if the setup frightens and confuses you, you should be playing this like a regular game. This goes for everyone, it isn't that hard.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

He didn't specify what about byes he has to do so it may not be the same.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

I know this.



Does it matter if they know? the answer is no.

You admit we can go anywhere, but them knowing that. See I don't get how them knowing makes it magically better for them to guess for rooms, rooms are majority. They are trying to outguess 3 people. For solo people they have nothing to base it on.

Mafia will want certain people to not be in matches. this is advantageous for them because they be able to try and clear matches via poisoning in the pre-bracket phase.

We can reads from this, we can read people based on why and where they went. Keeping track of this helps town.

Stop stonewalling this.

Why does that help us more then hurt mafia? You've admitted the reads will be minimal, and I don't see them helping that much yet.

Pros, we learn who was trying to push people to eat where, we learn what solo people were planing and thinking, after the fact not before, the point of the poisoner not going where he poisoned is valid and something I am interesting in seeiing where people go because we learn people's intent via if they are the poisoner or if they pushed their room to go there. We can learn intent from these actions.

Cons, mafia can trap someone in a martyr move if they learn what people are doing before the fact. Alt wincons might help them do this, this is why we above all else shut up about that stuff and only say where we go after the fact not before.

Mafia learning where we go after the fact is not a con.

Mafia getting the information to develop a pattern is though. I don't see how reads is greater then information at this point in time RR.

Keeping track of where people went, for rooms and lunches, helps us learn about them.

I can't make this anymore clear.

Why is this better to do today then putting off a phase or two?

 

[Wots All This Then?]

It's the fun thing to do.

it's the wrong thing to do

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

kantrip, your AtE looks kind of gross.

Go compose yourself, brah. I don't wanna scumread you just because you're getting flustered. Get your head in the game, cuz you're a better townplayer than this.

I don't wanna hear **** like "wah, why should I even try?!" from anybody this game. I don't give a **** if the setup frightens and confuses you, you should be playing this like a regular game. This goes for everyone, it isn't that hard.

I like you.

Be my bro, along with Watt even if I an arguing with him.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

it's the wrong thing to do

 

[Kantrip]

kantrip, your AtE looks kind of gross.

Go compose yourself, brah. I don't wanna scumread you just because you're getting flustered. Get your head in the game, cuz you're a better townplayer than this.

I don't wanna hear **** like "wah, why should I even try?!" from anybody this game. I don't give a **** if the setup frightens and confuses you, you should be playing this like a regular game. This goes for everyone, it isn't that hard.

You're completely right, but I came in here on page 22 or whatever with a flurry of posts and content regarding setup AND reads and it got me nowhere. Obviously that's not going to work so what kind of composing myself am I supposed to do? I'm not gonna try that again, it's not worth banging my head against a brick wall over and over again.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Explain to me how putting yourself over the town as a collective whole is right.
kudos on the office gif tho

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Mafia will want certain people to not be in matches. this is advantageous for them because they be able to try and clear matches via poisoning in the pre-bracket phase.

Yes, but this is why we don't say that info and anyone who may have an optional with eating should be quiet.

Why does that help us more then hurt mafia? You've admitted the reads will be minimal, and I don't see them helping that much yet.

I value this information for my reads. It helps others do the same.

This info is more valuable overtime and I want it on the table before the game goe

Mafia getting the information to develop a pattern is though. I don't see how reads is greater then information at this point in time RR.

What.
Pattern.
Is.
Mafia.
Finding.
Out.
From.
People.
Picking.
After.
The.
Fact.
When.
It.
Is.
Basically.
Random.

Why is this better to do today then putting off a phase or two?

What the difference from today over later phases? Mafia gains no pattern from anyone that is playing to a town wincon and not to the optional ones. And if people keep quiet on the latter if they have it, then they can't accurately figure out where people go.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

You're completely right, but I came in here on page 22 or whatever with a flurry of posts and content regarding setup AND reads and it got me nowhere. Obviously that's not going to work so what kind of composing myself am I supposed to do? I'm not gonna try that again, it's not worth banging my head against a brick wall over and over again.

You're swing ing back and forth for me readswise. it's those cool clam and collected moments that make me say "towntrip"

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Explain to me how putting yourself over the town as a collective whole is right.
kudos on the office gif tho

It's not.

But I figure this game it would be the fun thing to do.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Yes, but this is why we don't say that info and anyone who may have an optional with eating should be quiet.

I've got no wincon involved with eating and I still have a plan for that phase.
Also that's admitting to it via omission, same as with connections.

I value this information for my reads. It helps others do the same.

This info is more valuable overtime and I want it on the table before the game goe

I agree overtime. But would n't it make mroe sense for it to be dumped as a whole later on so that we can confirm among the different roomies involved and crosscheck it with the poisonings?

What.
Pattern.
Is.
Mafia.
Finding.
Out.
From.
People.
Picking.
After.
The.
Fact.
When.
It.
Is.
Basically.
Random.

Because my choices sure as **** aren't random. That's a big assumption you are making.

What the difference from today over later phases? Mafia gains no pattern from anyone that is playing to a town wincon and not to the optional ones. And if people keep quiet on the latter if they have it, then they can't accurately figure out where people go.

No poisoning happened today. That's why I want mafia to stay with the shot in the dark info that they have.

 

[Kantrip]

k well I'm taking a break then

feel free to review my match, either pawn's cheating or i have terrible luck

 

[Wots All This Then?]

It's not.

But I figure this game it would be the fun thing to do.

So..you're playing against your most important wincon?

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Ok, but you know why you got **** for your "triumphant return"? Because you proposed something that looked suspicious to a lot of people. Opting to not remove scum = Bad, and you proposed it. Hopefully now you understand why that was a bad call, but you haven't acknowledged it.

Just do your thing and roll with the punches. Don't get caught up in what other people think of you, just state your thoughts, explain them when people question them, and be civil. You got this.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

heading out for the night in 15, i'm sure dietz will show up to continue this.

 

[Kantrip]

Ok, but you know why you got **** for your "triumphant return"? Because you proposed something that looked suspicious to a lot of people. Opting to not remove scum = Bad, and you proposed it. Hopefully now you understand why that was a bad call, but you haven't acknowledged it.

Just do your thing and roll with the punches. Don't get caught up in what other people think of you, just state your thoughts, explain them when people question them, and be civil. You got this.

Wait wait wait what? Opting to not remove scum?

Are you talking about how I want to save an obvscum for the tourney cop? This is very beneficial to us, how is this a bad call? We want the tourney cop in the tournament because it means he removed a scum

 

[#HBC | Joker]

but if we remove the scum by voting to remove him, how is that any different?

If the tourney cop fails to remove somebody, we'll still have a confirmed townie in bracket, because the person he picked won't go away, and that means he's confirmed town. But by sheer law of averages, we should be taking as many shots as we can to find scum and remove them. Two shots is better than one.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

I'm not ready to do **** all for you, soup.

Then i'll keep scum-reading you. You haven't proved me wrong.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Who's scum besides kant soup?

 

[Kantrip]

but if we remove the scum by voting to remove him, how is that any different?

If the tourney cop fails to remove somebody, we'll still have a confirmed townie in bracket, because the person he picked won't go away, and that means he's confirmed town. But by sheer law of averages, we should be taking as many shots as we can to find scum and remove them. Two shots is better than one.

The risk of hitting town over scum isn't worth it. If we're using the removal, we have to be damn sure they are scum.

When I made that post I did forget about the fact that the tourney cop gives us a clear even if he doesn't make it into the bracket, so there is that. So I guess the removal mechanic is better to use first IF we find a scum we are more than 90% sure on.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

So after I finally managed to catch up last night you guys piled on another 3 pages. Quick responses after skimming:

- agreed @ WATT / Fab that in this game it's alright to explain townreads. I'm just not used to it but I'll make sure to comment on it.
- Kantrip agrees with half of my scumpool but claims that I make no sense. You make no sense.
- Kantrip and soup both sounding the counter-attack so vehemently when I put them in the same pool together is telling. Just because I have labeled them as equally likely to be scum doesn't mean I necessarily have them as scum together yet both of them immediately assume that I do and react so harshly. At least one of them is scum.
- Are we operating under the assumption that scum knows each other or that they can communicate? In all honesty, I don't really see why we should and I wouldn't be surprised if Kant vs soup was SvS without them knowing. Not that I'm banking on it but I think we should not exclude that possibility.

Your last point is interesting, but I doubt it's the case. Nabe has already hinted that one member of the mafia has a cell phone and can keep in contact with his other members even if they're not in the same room. I think it's possible that scum doesn't have a qt, but I think they know who is who. I don't understand how you're treating our reactions as one of the same.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Who's scum besides kant soup?

I know it's a bit odd to think like this, but I really believe that TTK could be scum. I haven't liked any of his posts and his content is bar none. I think he's having a hard time finding his footing as scum and he doesn't really know what to say, which is why most of his posts pertain to the setup and he hasn't even bothered to out any reads. I believe as town, he would take at least some initiative to do so. As for the others? I still don't really care for Rake. If one of your town-reads would happen to be wrong, which one do you feel is most likely? I do not believe that everyone posting right now is town, and I don't believe everyone not posting is scum. What don't you like about Shoco?

 

[#HBC | Joker]

The risk of hitting town over scum isn't worth it. If we're using the removal, we have to be damn sure they are scum.

When I made that post I did forget about the fact that the tourney cop gives us a clear even if he doesn't make it into the bracket, so there is that. So I guess the removal mechanic is better to use first IF we find a scum we are more than 90% sure on.

That's exactly why we need to use OUR removal on the guy that we're certain is scum, not wait for the tourney cop to deal with that one. The tourney cop can totally afford to be wrong with his choice, but we can't. That's why we should opt to use our removal vote on the #1 scumspect, not the #2, like you proposed.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Everything about RR bothers me. It's like he's playing to be intentionally null, which is more so something Ruy would do as scum because he doesn't have the same motivations to try and help out/

 

[pawndidater2]

@Kanty You said one of your wincons involves getting a bye. One of mine does too. Even if they're not exactly the same the point is they're very similar, and you are stressing way more than me or anyone else about it.

 

[Kantrip]

@Kanty You said one of your wincons involves getting a bye. One of mine does too. Even if they're not exactly the same the point is they're very similar, and you are stressing way more than me or anyone else about it.

I never said this. I said I want a bye because it helps my win-con. Now stop assuming you know things and don't worry about it.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

So..you're playing against your most important wincon?

Against? Nope.

I'm just putting more value on my optional ones.

Also I would compromise to wait on the info, since it's clear this is going nowhere and I'd rather we move onto more important things, like reads on others.

If a poison happens, we out immediately. Fair?

Also It's not admitting via omition, I figured the lunch thing was a potential optional win con with how people wanting to get byes works out.

Same for other situations/events.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Joker might be a potential stronger town read than Watt right now.

Everything about RR bothers me. It's like he's playing to be intentionally null, which is more so something Ruy would do as scum because he doesn't have the same motivations to try and help out/

I don't follow.

Elaborate.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

@Kanty You said one of your wincons involves getting a bye. One of mine does too. Even if they're not exactly the same the point is they're very similar, and you are stressing way more than me or anyone else about it.

Did he? Show.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

I know it's a bit odd to think like this, but I really believe that TTK could be scum. I haven't liked any of his posts and his content is bar none. I think he's having a hard time finding his footing as scum and he doesn't really know what to say, which is why most of his posts pertain to the setup and he hasn't even bothered to out any reads. I believe as town, he would take at least some initiative to do so. As for the others? I still don't really care for Rake. If one of your town-reads would happen to be wrong, which one do you feel is most likely? I do not believe that everyone posting right now is town, and I don't believe everyone not posting is scum. What don't you like about Shoco?

If one of my townreads is wrong? Probably you. Possibly pawn, although he's doing a lot better with his last few posts. No offense, but I've never seen washed be obvtown as scum and I don't get a hint of scumminess form J's posts.

Against? Nope.

I'm just putting more value on my optional ones.

Also I would compromise to wait on the info, since it's clear this is going nowhere and I'd rather we move onto more important things, like reads on others.

If a poison happens, we out immediately. Fair?
.

I'm fine with outing in case of poison. I'll stop harassing you about the wincon bit in exchange.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

What.
Pattern.
Is.
Mafia.
Finding.
Out.
From.
People.
Picking.
After.
The.
Fact.
When.
It.
Is.
Basically.
Random.

http://philosophy.stackexchange.com/questions/1961/are-people-capable-of-generating-a-random-number

 

[Wots All This Then?]

I asked my room to get Chinese since I love Chinese restaurants.

Masta' you are truly a fool.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

It's the fun thing to do.

It's also blatantly mod discouraged.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

- Are we operating under the assumption that scum knows each other or that they can communicate? In all honesty, I don't really see why we should and I wouldn't be surprised if Kant vs soup was SvS without them knowing. Not that I'm banking on it but I think we should not exclude that possibility.

Gheb I'm going to take an aside here and be as blunt but as honest as possible, and I do mean this in the best way:

Read the rules of the game. All of it. Then read it again. Don't come back until you do, because you're just wasting your own time not knowing these simple stated facts about the game.

Seriously. We were basically told what mafia can do even. That's more than once now you've been missing some blatently important facts about the game that should be common knowledge.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

. What don't you like about Shoco?

Forgot about this.
His complete lack of presence after all the posturing he did yesterday. He's here going through our match but he's not posting anything in thread.
Also his "I like rake and soup" comment when no one should have had any reason to like rake considering what he had in thread at the time was jack ****.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Town gains reads from this overtime about who pushed what to go where.


Pros, we learn who was trying to push people to eat where, we learn what solo people were planing and thinking, after the fact not before, the point of the poisoner not going where he poisoned is valid and something I am interesting in seeiing where people go because we learn people's intent via if they are the poisoner or if they pushed their room to go there. We can learn intent from these actions.

The first line is the only benefit I can see from asking people where their room went to eat (full of WIFOM as it may be it's still information we could look at). But the thing is we gain the full benefit of that information if we want it by outing it cycle 6 , the last day to vote for our removal and the cycle at the end of which the tourney cop decides on another removal choice (cycle 5 if we want more time to debate). Any time before that and it's just giving away any of our non-randomness in lunch choices, either by human nature or actual game-plan, to the mafia for small to no immediate benefit.


@Underlined: I'm curious, why do you care where solo people went to eat? They'll either be poisoned or they won't be and it's all up to them, and that will be obvious information when they're either sick or they aren't, after that it's meaningless unless you're trying to read the data for an ulterior motive.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Apologies for a million posts in a row: hydra power is at work lol.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Apologies for a million posts in a row: hydra power is at work lol.

Lemme quote myself "team WATT too stronk"

 

[Wots All This Then?]

The risk of hitting town over scum isn't worth it. If we're using the removal, we have to be damn sure they are scum.

When I made that post I did forget about the fact that the tourney cop gives us a clear even if he doesn't make it into the bracket, so there is that. So I guess the removal mechanic is better to use first IF we find a scum we are more than 90% sure on.

Actually you've just given me something to think about inadvertently. I'm going to have to do some math and see if having one extra townie removed to create a 11 man bracket actually puts us behind mathematically speaking... technically the amount of matches that are TvS are fixed if scum don't go against each other, so it's possible removing that 12th townie on a hunch gone wrong may not actually decrease town's ability to go toe to toe with scum. Additional Town may just kill other town in bracket with no real statistical benefit if my surface level understanding of what I'm saying is right, which would be a huge load off of the pressure to use or not use our voting removal (obviously toward using it anyways).