Know what? Doc better represents Mario than Mario

[Davidk92]

Because Mario should have Doc's moveset.

I don't know about any of you, but I always found Doc to have the simpler, more straight forward and easier to use, which makes him an excellent beginner's character. Ever since they added FLUDD to Mario's moveset and shunted Mario Tornado to his Down Air, Mario's just come off as oddly gimmicky and more obtuse for a character that is touted as being the character beginner's should use.

I know there's plenty of people that will argue that FLUDD is a powerful tool if you take the time to get to learn it, but that's not my point. Mario should always be the simplest character on the roster, the one used to get a feel for the game. He shouldn't BE a character you need to take time to learn. And the fact that Doc and to a lesser extent Luigi now embody that better than he does, yet both are unlockable just seems baffling.

If absolutely anything, Doc should be the one with the odd bells and whistles that you need to learn. Let him be the gimmicky one. Mario should be as straight-forward and newbie-friendly as possible.

And hell, Doc's Down Air is so perfect for a character who's entire gameplay is based around JUMPING! Yet the Mario WHO DOESN'T EVEN JUMP in his own games is the one that has it! The heck's that about!?

So yeah. I hope Doc gets cut, if only so that his moveset can be combined with Mario, and thereby make him more of a straightforward character.

TL;DR version - Doc better represents what Mario is than Mario himself does, so combine the two.

 

[Xelrog]

That's a lot of text to say "remove FLUDD."

I do agree though. I don't like FLUDD being on Mario for all the reasons you outlined, plus that it's one of those one-game-only moves, and is already present (more appropriately) on Squirtle anyhow. I could argue this way or that about what moves should or shouldn't be on Mario--I still find it kind of odd that he doesn't have a ground pound, though I understand the reasoning with the move being on Yoshi and Bowser--but I think the "he should be the easiest character to pick up immediately" argument is the soundest overall.

 

[Quillion]

I do think FLUDD is horribly out of place in Mario's moveset since it's overly gimmicky. I also think it would have been better for Mario himself to have the Goomba Stomp than Doc.

But we can still have both. I've been saying this in too many topics recently, but just changing hitbox properties, frame data, and mobility is enough to make a character play differently despite similar/same animations.

I'd personally give Mario the Goomba Stomp as d-air, Ground Pound as d-special, and change side special to Star Spin but have it functionally identical to Cape (Spin was in the Galaxy games and NSMB console games, so it isn't a one-off).

I still find it kind of odd that he doesn't have a ground pound, though I understand the reasoning with the move being on Yoshi and Bowser

To that I would say that there are a bunch of spinning approach moves like Bowser and DK's up-Bs, ROB's side-B, and Incineroar's neutral-B. Doc's as even given armor to match Bowser and DK's up-Bs.

There are ways of making a Ground Pound unique. Just making the move faster than even Yoshi's (about T. Link's down-air fast) would work.

 

[---]

I think Kirby has stolen the easy-to-pick-up role from Mario according to Sakurai. Or at least that was the reason given when he responded to claimed World of Light bias.

I'm cool with FLUDD, but I agree that it, even after the boost it got in 3DS/Wii U, can be awkward to use and doesn't fit with the "shoto" stereotype he had in 64/Melee.

Davidk92 Edited the title to avoid it potentially acting as bait.

 

[Quillion]

I think Kirby has stolen the easy-to-pick-up role from Mario according to Sakurai. Or at least that was the reason given when he responded to claimed World of Light bias.

I'm cool with FLUDD, but I agree that it, even after the boost it got in 3DS/Wii U, can be awkward to use and doesn't fit with the "shoto" stereotype he had in 64/Melee.

Davidk92 Edited the title to avoid it potentially acting as bait.

Mario's more like an all skill levels character. Kirby has an easy recovery and is a glass cannon, so he's the pure beginner character, but Mario can be played at all skill levels. There's a reason why Mario is literally the first trophy you can save.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Yeah, I think Mario is supposed to be a character who's "easy to play, difficult to master". FLUDD, and to a lesser extant Cape, are both somewhat "gimmicky" moves that a new player might have a difficult time taking advantage of. But they aren't super important to learning the character at a beginer's level either. They, like his somewhat elaborate combo game, are there for more skilled players to learn and master.

 

[Wigglerman]

Doctor Mario feels like he represents 'classic' Mario, keeping that similar move set in tact, for the most part, while allowing the main man to have experimentation with his move set since he is ever changing in his games. It let's them have their cake and eat it to, in some regard. They can keep his classic move set alive with Doc, albiet some changes, yet continue to give Mario other things. I honestly expected Mario to have new moves this time around due to Odyssey. I was thinking for sure Cappy would be implemented in some fashion outside of a taunt.

 

[Quillion]

Doctor Mario feels like he represents 'classic' Mario, keeping that similar move set in tact, for the most part, while allowing the main man to have experimentation with his move set since he is ever changing in his games. It let's them have their cake and eat it to, in some regard. They can keep his classic move set alive with Doc, albiet some changes, yet continue to give Mario other things. I honestly expected Mario to have new moves this time around due to Odyssey. I was thinking for sure Cappy would be implemented in some fashion outside of a taunt.

Honestly, I would like Mario to lose FLUDD and not gain anymore "one game gimmick" moves, including Cappy. Cape can be replaced with with a Mario Galaxy-like Spin by virtue of it also appearing in the NSMB games.

 

[Wigglerman]

Honestly, I would like Mario to lose FLUDD and not gain anymore "one game gimmick" moves, including Cappy. Cape can be replaced with with a Mario Galaxy-like Spin by virtue of it also appearing in the NSMB games.

I mean, I honestly don't mind if Fluud got removed since Squirtle does that gimmick better. Though Cape I'd prefer to not see gone since it's been a staple of his moveset since Melee and is iconic of Super Mario World (Which is also my favorite Mario game, so that could be partial bias). There's no real reason to remove Cape. Just remove Fluud and give him the old spin back I guess

 

[Quillion]

I mean, I honestly don't mind if Fluud got removed since Squirtle does that gimmick better. Though Cape I'd prefer to not see gone since it's been a staple of his moveset since Melee and is iconic of Super Mario World (Which is also my favorite Mario game, so that could be partial bias). There's no real reason to remove Cape. Just remove Fluud and give him the old spin back I guess

I think Spin can still have Cape's functions since in Galaxy and NSMB, it lengthens your jump, and in Galaxy, it deflects certain projectiles. Down B would better be Ground Pound, though D-air could either be the current tornado or Goomba Stomp like Doc.

 

[UserKev]

Finally someone else mention it. FLUDD is a great character in its own, but it honestly ruins Mario in Smash. God I love Smash 64/Melee Mario. I absolutely agree with Goomba Stomp, Mario NEEDS! this. The Cape also needs a function that lets it acts as a glider, 2nd recovery.

 

[Xelrog]

Setting aside what should or shouldn't happen, I feel confident in predicting that Doc is almost certainly on the chopping board should they make character cuts in Smash 6. Him and Young Link.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

The OP didn't actually provide a good reason on why Dr. Mario represents Mario better. He just explained a personal gripe on why he thinks FLUDD is awkward to use while painfully undermining the reason why Mario is the beginner friendly character.

Mario's overall kit is to be a jack of all trades that works effectively under most situations, he is also has above average ground mobility and good airspeed with a very acrobatic feel. Luigi on the other hand has low airspeed and low ground mobility with an awkward feel on the air, while Dr. Mario is heavier, sluggish and is much less agile than Mario with a worse recovery. Mario would still be the fighter to go for people who are learning the game, so I don't know in which alternative reality you think that Dr. Mario and Luigi fulfill that role better. Now, if you want a newbie player to fall like a brick off stage every time, then tell them to pick Doc.

It's interesting how several ideas of doing "better representing" pretty much boil done to a user projecting their personal feelings on the character rather than taking objective facts into account.

 

[Xelrog]

It's interesting how several ideas of doing "better representing" pretty much boil done to a user projecting their personal feelings on the character rather than taking objective facts into account.

Like your completely objective posts. Right? Your opinions are the right ones?

Why don't you tell us about objective representation some more.

 

[Wigglerman]

Setting aside what should or shouldn't happen, I feel confident in predicting that Doc is almost certainly on the chopping board should they make character cuts in Smash 6. Him and Young Link.

I doubt they'll get chopped if they make Smash 6. If they make it, it would likely still be on Switch. There'd be little reason to remove them when they have all the assets currently made. I'd imagine it'd be an easy port over. That'd be like deleting Lucina or Marth because they're still so similar and 'don't need to be there' sort of thing. Doc has made it along this far, cutting him now would be odd. Young Link having to be remade would be a waste to just throw him out after the effort they went through to bring him back.

I'd fathom no one is getting cut at this point. Only added. IF a Smash 6 even happens.

 

[Quillion]

I doubt they'll get chopped if they make Smash 6. If they make it, it would likely still be on Switch. There'd be little reason to remove them when they have all the assets currently made. I'd imagine it'd be an easy port over. That'd be like deleting Lucina or Marth because they're still so similar and 'don't need to be there' sort of thing. Doc has made it along this far, cutting him now would be odd. Young Link having to be remade would be a waste to just throw him out after the effort they went through to bring him back.

I'd fathom no one is getting cut at this point. Only added. IF a Smash 6 even happens.

Sakurai said it was a "miracle" they were able to fit all those characters into one game. They were probably straining the limits of file size and memory allowable, not even getting into licenses for 3rd party characters.

That said, I do agree that (semi-)echoes of the staples like Mario and Marth are unlikely to go considering how little development they take.

 

[Wigglerman]

Sakurai said it was a "miracle" they were able to fit all those characters into one game. They were probably straining the limits of file size and memory allowable, not even getting into licenses for 3rd party characters.

That said, I do agree that (semi-)echoes of the staples like Mario and Marth are unlikely to go considering how little development they take.

The next Smash is going to be a LOOONG way out. Who knows what developments Nintendo will make for the Switch, or if they make a new system. I dunno. I feel he could be overstating a little, though it could depend on what changes happened mid development (Could have been planned originally to NOT be 'everyone is here' but changed later on). I dunno. If the next Smash even happens within the next 10 years by this point (I'm willing to be Smash Ult. will get at least another DLC pack to keep the game lively) then I'm more than certain it wouldn't have the same constraints they did this time.

 

[Deleted member]

The OP didn't actually provide a good reason on why Dr. Mario represents Mario better. He just explained a personal gripe on why he thinks FLUDD is awkward to use while painfully undermining the reason why Mario is the beginner friendly character.

Mario's overall kit is to be a jack of all trades that works effectively under most situations, he is also has above average ground mobility and good airspeed with a very acrobatic feel. Luigi on the other hand has low airspeed and low ground mobility with an awkward feel on the air, while Dr. Mario is heavier, sluggish and is much less agile than Mario with a worse recovery. Mario would still be the fighter to go for people who are learning the game, so I don't know in which alternative reality you think that Dr. Mario and Luigi fulfill that role better. Now, if you want a newbie player to fall like a brick off stage every time, then tell them to pick Doc.

It's interesting how several ideas of doing "better representing" pretty much boil done to a user projecting their personal feelings on the character rather than taking objective facts into account.

My thoughts exactly. The only thing i sort of agree with is the Fludd and i say sort of because i'd take it a step further, moves like Fludd dont belong in smash.

 

[Wigglerman]

My thoughts exactly. The only thing i sort of agree with is the Fludd and i say sort of because i'd take it a step further, moves like Fludd dont belong in smash.

I don't see how they 'don't belong in Smash'. It's a utility move, not unlike Squirtle's Water Gun. It can be used to mess with opponents positioning or outright edge guard without resetting jumps/up B's. You'd have to elaborate on why a move 'does' or 'doesn't' belong in Smash,

 

[Deleted member]

I don't see how they 'don't belong in Smash'. It's a utility move, not unlike Squirtle's Water Gun. It can be used to mess with opponents positioning or outright edge guard without resetting jumps/up B's. You'd have to elaborate on why a move 'does' or 'doesn't' belong in Smash,

Charging is easy and the only time you ever use the fludd is to "edge guard". And by edge guard i mean stand by the ledge, press a button and not risk a single thing by pushing your opponents away.

 

[Wigglerman]

Charging is easy and the only time you ever use the fludd is to "edge guard". And by edge guard i mean stand by the ledge, press a button and not risk a single thing by pushing your opponents away.

How is it any different than someone like Zelda or Palu who can just stand away from the ledge and use easy to hit fire balls? Or Ivysaur who can just stand on the ledge and short hop dair to spike? Or Link's tossing/z dropping bombs. Rob dairing or z dropping beyblades? So on. MANY moves among the entire roster require 'not risking a single thing' to get kills. Fludd at the very least has a limit (It isn't good at hitting below stage due to limited angles) and is, at best, situational when most people tend to cape to reverse recoveries. None of the above options risk anything or MUCH of anything at all and net insane value among equally skilled players.

Do none of those moves belong in smash now? No. That's a silly argument.

 

[Deleted member]

How is it any different than someone like Zelda or Palu who can just stand away from the ledge and use easy to hit fire balls? Or Ivysaur who can just stand on the ledge and short hop dair to spike? Or Link's tossing/z dropping bombs. Rob dairing or z dropping beyblades? So on. MANY moves among the entire roster require 'not risking a single thing' to get kills. Fludd at the very least has a limit (It isn't good at hitting below stage due to limited angles) and is, at best, situational when most people tend to cape to reverse recoveries. None of the above options risk anything or MUCH of anything at all and net insane value among equally skilled players.

Do none of those moves belong in smash now? No. That's a silly argument.

First off i never said theres anything wrong with Palutena, Ivysaur, or Rob. They all need some tweaking.

Second of all Zelda doesnt have a great neutral game, Mario does. You cant compare the two.

Not to mention Zelda's side b has an actual purpose other than pushing your opponents of the stage. The fludd is an OD item is what im saying.

And thats all i got to say on the matter. You say your piece and lets agree to disagree.

 

[Wigglerman]

First off i never said theres anything wrong with Palutena, Ivysaur, or Rob. They all need some tweaking.

Second of all Zelda doesnt have a great neutral game, Mario does. You cant compare the two.

Not to mention Zelda's side b has an actual purpose other than pushing your opponents of the stage. The fludd is an OD item is what im saying.

And thats all i got to say on the matter. You say your piece and lets agree to disagree.

I absolutely can compare the two because what the rest of their kit was like isn't the discussion. The discussion is 'moves don't belong in smash because they're easy' according to your own criteria. Other characters have low risk, high reward options all over the place. Why does Fludd 'not belong' but the others do, regardless of the rest of their kids?

Fludd not being overly useful outside of a singular role or being a 'psudo-item' doesn't inherently mean it 'doesn't belong'.

 

[Crystanium]

Mario is "newbie-friendly", though. He's very basic, which is one of the reasons why I didn't use him for a secondary in SSB4. He feels just about the same in SSBU. He just didn't feel technical. In fact, I find Mario so basic that I feel he could have been the starting character in World of Light. I am also loathe to the word "gimmick" or "gimmicky". Both mean, "A trick or device intended to attract attention, publicity, or trade." I don't see how Mario provides any of those, so I think there is another definition that is being used that has nothing to do with the original word.

 

[Quillion]

I am also loathe to the word "gimmick" or "gimmicky". Both mean, "A trick or device intended to attract attention, publicity, or trade." I don't see how Mario provides any of those, so I think there is another definition that is being used that has nothing to do with the original word.

Gimmick can also mean (according to Merriam-Webster):

an ingenious and usually new scheme or angle

We're referring to the fact that FLUDD is uncharacteristically "novel" of Mario's moveset. On Squirtle, it's more fitting, but it's just out of place in the versatile newb-friendliness of Mario's moveset.

 

[Crystanium]

Gimmick can also mean (according to Merriam-Webster):


We're referring to the fact that FLUDD is uncharacteristically "novel" of Mario's moveset. On Squirtle, it's more fitting, but it's just out of place in the versatile newb-friendliness of Mario's moveset.

I'm more of a fan of the Oxford English Dictionary than I am Merriam-Webster. A scheme is "A secret or underhand plan; a plot", which fits the definition I provided. As for "angle", as in, "What's your angle?" is defined in this context as, "A particular way of approaching or considering an issue or problem." So I'm still not seeing how that definition is any better. F.L.U.D.D. has been around since SSBB. It's hardly "novel". The years between 1985 and 2002 (Super Mario Bros. and Super Mario Sunshine) is 17 years. The years between Super Mario Sunshine and Super Smash Bros. Ultimate (2002 - 2018) is 16 years. I'd say F.L.U.D.D. is outdated, but I still strongly disagree that Mario isn't a good choice for a beginner.

 

[Quillion]

I'm more of a fan of the Oxford English Dictionary than I am Merriam-Webster. A scheme is "A secret or underhand plan; a plot", which fits the definition I provided. As for "angle", as in, "What's your angle?" is defined in this context as, "A particular way of approaching or considering an issue or problem." So I'm still not seeing how that definition is any better. F.L.U.D.D. has been around since SSBB. It's hardly "novel". The years between 1985 and 2002 (Super Mario Bros. and Super Mario Sunshine) is 17 years. The years between Super Mario Sunshine and Super Smash Bros. Ultimate (2002 - 2018) is 16 years. I'd say F.L.U.D.D. is outdated, but I still strongly disagree that Mario isn't a good choice for a beginner.

My point is that FLUDD is just too weird to be on his moveset. Yes, Mario is a good choice for beginners, but you have to entirely disregard FLUDD in that assessment.

All of Mario's moves should be good at all skill levels. Even at the beginner level, Cape is good for easing recovery. FLUDD is too situational, hard to hit with, and is often undermined due to how ledge grabbing hitboxes work at the beginner level.

 

[Crystanium]

My point is that FLUDD is just too weird to be on his moveset. Yes, Mario is a good choice for beginners, but you have to entirely disregard FLUDD in that assessment.

All of Mario's moves should be good at all skill levels. Even at the beginner level, Cape is good for easing recovery. FLUDD is too situational, hard to hit with, and is often undermined due to how ledge grabbing hitboxes work at the beginner level.

That's fine. Mario has a lot of better options to choose from.

 

[MBRedboy31]

I had to comment, isn’t this discussion regarding FLUDD so far based only on competitive style Smash?

In casual Smash, where the entire point of having an easy to use character is more notable, it has a more obvious role in shoving enemies into assists, stage hazards, walkoffs, ect.

 

[UserKev]

FLUDD could have been an amazing custom move for Mario, its a missed opportunity. FLUDD could have been an otherwise, great addition to Mario's moveset if served a different purpose. Its upgrades in Super Mario Sunshine could have better represented one of Mario's recovery moves.

 

[Xelrog]

I had to comment, isn’t this discussion regarding FLUDD so far based only on competitive style Smash?

In casual Smash, where the entire point of having an easy to use character is more notable, it has a more obvious role in shoving enemies into assists, stage hazards, walkoffs, ect.

I don't think any casual player anywhere would use FLUDD instead of just punching the opponent in that direction, except rarely for style points.

 

[Wigglerman]

I don't think any casual player anywhere would use FLUDD instead of just punching the opponent in that direction, except rarely for style points.

I'm a firm believer of Dunkaroos so...fair is all I use when people are off stage with Mario. But I'm a scrub Mario so...

 

[MBRedboy31]

I don't think any casual player anywhere would use FLUDD instead of just punching the opponent in that direction, except rarely for style points.

I mean, it is longer ranged and thus safer, plus you sometimes just don’t have time to get in close, especially if there’s other things in the way of you getting close. I guess it’s more for the “good but prefers casual Smash” players but IDK, but that ruins my original point, so...

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

I still disagree with getting rid of FLUDD. Some said it only serves only for edgeguarding but that's not true. It's a decent disruptive tool on stage to interrupt approaches and potentially cause an opponent to go for an unsafe option.

Like your completely objective posts. Right? Your opinions are the right ones?

Why don't you tell us about objective representation some more.

Gladly.

FLUDD appeared for the first time in Super Mario Sunshine. It is one of the many power ups that Mario has used throughout his career, therefore it's a valid choice if you want to craft a moveset for him in a fighting game such as this. Devs can't go wrong by picking it from a representation or utility standpoint because they are basing it from an existing mechanic that appeared in one of Mario's many games, so that's a pretty objective way to look at it's implementation.

It definitively beats subjective sentimental nonsense such as "it's a one game only move" (which has never been a good reason to not include something, also, Super Cape), "you need to take time to learn it" (first, no you don't, second, why is this a bad thing and how does that hurts the character's representation?) or "it's already present on Squirtle" (because Lord forbids two characters sharing a move with a similar function. Windboxes like Mario's and Squirtle's are far less common than widely shared moves like reflectors, projectiles and counters).

Just drop the BS and the mental gymnastics telling me that FLUDD represents Mario poorly. Be honest with yourselves and say "I just don't like FLUDD", rather than making a bunch of rationalizations like that it's difficult to use.

Ball is in your court, sport.

 

[Fenrir-Bolt]

I find it hilarious that Mario’s main offensive strategy is based on blocking or reversing attacks, I think this says a lot about the character. I guess it’s either lost or just not really that pertinent to most players.

I guess that’s the cusp to properly utilizing or getting into playing the character. It’s not necessarily a bad thing, he’s just not an all out offensive character. It’s good to think of Mario as a prevorbial ‘underdog’ of sorts, and I guess who is some kind of a matadors of sorts in the game. He’s also a lot shorter then the characters, which kind of adds to him being viewed that way next to other characters and fighters.

I guess Mario is a pacifist? Or just completely out of his element when he can’t rely mostly on stomping his enemies into pancakes.

 

[Fenrir-Bolt]

Part of me thinks as well thar, they wanted to make him like Link? But it almost didn’t work on execution, because even though Mario is form an adventure game and he has had different power ups or magical equipment, it’s just not the same as Link, and it feels like it kinda falls flat on its head...but then, oddly enough considering it’s Nintendo’s flagship character, and best known, I think they honestly chose his strange moveset because of some weird philosophical reason that also stranl y reflects Nintendo’s philosophy behind their company.

Nintendo is a werid company like that, that’s why I like Nintendo things.

 

[Quillion]

It definitively beats subjective sentimental nonsense such as "it's a one game only move" (which has never been a good reason to not include something, also, Super Cape)

Like I said before, I want Cape's animation to be revamped to Spin but have its functions intact. And no, Spin isn't a sub-series-only move, as it did appear in a non-offensive function in the NSMB games.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

Part of me thinks as well thar, they wanted to make him like Link? But it almost didn’t work on execution, because even though Mario is form an adventure game and he has had different power ups or magical equipment, it’s just not the same as Link, and it feels like it kinda falls flat on its head...but then, oddly enough considering it’s Nintendo’s flagship character, and best known, I think they honestly chose his strange moveset because of some weird philosophical reason that also stranl y reflects Nintendo’s philosophy behind their company.

Nintendo is a werid company like that, that’s why I like Nintendo things.

Mario is like Link and they made him a pacifist? Sounds like you don't have a clue what you are talking about.

 

[Davidk92]

The OP didn't actually provide a good reason on why Dr. Mario represents Mario better. He just explained a personal gripe on why he thinks FLUDD is awkward to use while painfully undermining the reason why Mario is the beginner friendly character.

Mario's overall kit is to be a jack of all trades that works effectively under most situations, he is also has above average ground mobility and good airspeed with a very acrobatic feel. Luigi on the other hand has low airspeed and low ground mobility with an awkward feel on the air, while Dr. Mario is heavier, sluggish and is much less agile than Mario with a worse recovery. Mario would still be the fighter to go for people who are learning the game, so I don't know in which alternative reality you think that Dr. Mario and Luigi fulfill that role better. Now, if you want a newbie player to fall like a brick off stage every time, then tell them to pick Doc.

It's interesting how several ideas of doing "better representing" pretty much boil done to a user projecting their personal feelings on the character rather than taking objective facts into account.

I still disagree with getting rid of FLUDD. Some said it only serves only for edgeguarding but that's not true. It's a decent disruptive tool on stage to interrupt approaches and potentially cause an opponent to go for an unsafe option.



Gladly.

FLUDD appeared for the first time in Super Mario Sunshine. It is one of the many power ups that Mario has used throughout his career, therefore it's a valid choice if you want to craft a moveset for him in a fighting game such as this. Devs can't go wrong by picking it from a representation or utility standpoint because they are basing it from an existing mechanic that appeared in one of Mario's many games, so that's a pretty objective way to look at it's implementation.

It definitively beats subjective sentimental nonsense such as "it's a one game only move" (which has never been a good reason to not include something, also, Super Cape), "you need to take time to learn it" (first, no you don't, second, why is this a bad thing and how does that hurts the character's representation?) or "it's already present on Squirtle" (because Lord forbids two characters sharing a move with a similar function. Windboxes like Mario's and Squirtle's are far less common than widely shared moves like reflectors, projectiles and counters).

Just drop the BS and the mental gymnastics telling me that FLUDD represents Mario poorly. Be honest with yourselves and say "I just don't like FLUDD", rather than making a bunch of rationalizations like that it's difficult to use.

Ball is in your court, sport.

Mario is like Link and they made him a pacifist? Sounds like you don't have a clue what you are talking about.

Jesus Christ, you're an asshole.

 

[---]

It's pretty clear the overall topic of this thread can no longer be discussed with any civility. Locked.