Meta Knights of Elibe: Discuss Roy Strategies and Technology Here

[Fledge]

Oh yeah, to add to the video showing the DED 4 delay timing since we're on the topic of DED, I'm not sure if this is a dumb thing to notice or has been discussed already or if it's already common knowledge, but depending on which direction of DED3 you choose (up, forward or down) Roy's spacing at the end will be completely different. Up moves Roy forward the farthest, forward moves him slightly shorter than that, and down actually keeps him very close to his starting point.

When doing DED 4 delay I find using the DED 3 down version to be the best where spacing is concerned.

 

[Jiom]

DED dance is definitely an amazing move, you can condition your opponent in many ways with it. You can shield grab it if your timing is good but let's face it, who else besides Roy mains have the timing to do that in their muscle memory. If you're timing is slightly off with the grab, you just get interrupted by the next DED hit, especially if you condition them to grab at certain timing.

There is a lot of counterplay to DED and it's a big commitment. Being certain that they won't be able to shield in time before they get hit is big, as that gives you a lot less you have to think about. It does have a pretty fun RPS aspect to it, you just have to outplay your opponent or hope they mess up if they do manage to shield it.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Been implementing Flare blade a bit more into my game play. I'm finding the move to be really nice for edge guarding as well useful for air to air combat since it can bait out and punish airdodges / attacks while also giving roy enough time to safetly recover due to its low endlag. Its also useful for landing due to shifting Roy's momentum.

I feel the move might have several other useful applications as well. For example, it could possibly be useful as a psuedo dash attack, being much weaker, but much safer than Roy's regular dash attack.

 

[Airpoizon]

Been implementing Flare blade a bit more into my game play. I'm finding the move to be really nice for edge guarding as well useful for air to air combat since it can bait out and punish airdodges / attacks while also giving roy enough time to safetly recover due to its low endlag. Its also useful for landing due to shifting Roy's momentum.

I feel the move might have several other useful applications as well. For example, it could possibly be useful as a psuedo dash attack, being much weaker, but much safer than Roy's regular dash attack.

Flare Blade has got to be one of Roys most underrated moves. It's got amazing damage, almost NO end lag, can be used to bait people out, space, etc. you can just be a bit away from your opponent while you wait for you to release flare blade and when you do you can instantly attack them lol.

 

[Entar0]

After a footstool, you can use the first DED to stall. Not sure what I can get out of this yet but i can get an FF Uair to footstool with a DED stall and quickly drop down to do an F-Smash on peach at 25%, and it does about 26%. Kinda hard to explain without a visual, I know, but what can you do without a capture card, am I right? I feel like this could start something big for Roy, though, so I just wanted to share it

Edit: I got a quick couple of combos with my crappy 2000's phone and put them all together. I did my best to throw as much in as I could to balance the ****ty quality, but oh well. Here yah go!

Percents are hard to read so I will put them here:

First combo - 25% at beginning, 54% after F-Smash
Second combo - 45% at beginning, 56% after B-air, 73% after F-Air, wherever you consider the combo to be ended
Third combo - 50% at beginning, 72% after dash attack
Fourth combo - 50% at beginning, 67% after sour F-tilt
Fifth combo - 55% at beginning, 79% after first hit of D-Smash

 

[Fledge]

After a footstool, you can use the first DED to stall. Not sure what I can get out of this yet but i can get an FF Uair to footstool with a DED stall and quickly drop down to do an F-Smash on peach at 25%, and it does about 26%. Kinda hard to explain without a visual, I know, but what can you do without a capture card, am I right? I feel like this could start something big for Roy, though, so I just wanted to share it

This is pretty neat, so basically it uses the vertical momentum cancelling properties of DED to keep Roy closer to the ground after footstool, thus opening up a new path of footstool followup options . It's the same stalling that allows for grounded ledge jump getup DED, it never would have occurred to me to use DED in this non-attack-oriented way after a footstool, though I had heard about Greninja player iStudying as a followup to footstool+dair would throw out shuriken to air stall, keeping Greninja close enough to the ground for a followup nair to footstool+dair again and so get a lock cycle going. This along with MasonEliwood's impressive Double Dairius makes for some nice situational footstool mixup combos.

I noticed in your video that after footstool a lot of times Peach would DI away from Roy making followup seemingly difficult. I wonder if it's possible to B-reverse or wavebounce the DED momentum into Peach's fall direction to ensure followups? Also, after a forced footstool getup, I wonder if timed properly it's possible to chain another Uair and get a lock cycle going, like with iStudying's Greninja. I really wanna play around with this when I get the chance, thanks for sharing this!

 

[DarkDeity15]

Roy has a 52% combo. Falling Uair > Bair > Uair > Fair > double jump Fair. Landing Uair (facing the opponent) > Fair > FF Uair onto a platform > Fair > double jump Fair also works, and is better for stages with lots of platforms. Remember that performing this combo will potentialcarry you and the opponent across the entire stage. Lastly, landing Uair to FH sweetspot Dair can true combo at the 45 to 60%-ish range if you buffer the dair and read their DI. They can avoid this by DIing away though (which if they do, you can just Fair, Bair or Nair instead).

 

[Saltyman]

Footstool jump true combos into reverse Blazer off stage.. Because why not?

 

[Serew]

Footstool jump true combos into reverse Blazer off stage.. Because why not?

Yep correct

i actually found it by accidentally footstooling someone offstage and up b-ing XD

 

[Jiom]

Roy has a 52% combo. Falling Uair > Bair > Uair > Fair > double jump Fair. Landing Uair (facing the opponent) > Fair > FF Uair onto a platform > Fair > double jump Fair also works, and is better for stages with lots of platforms. Remember that performing this combo will potentialcarry you and the opponent across the entire stage. Lastly, landing Uair to FH sweetspot Dair can true combo at the 45 to 60%-ish range if you buffer the dair and read their DI. They can avoid this by DIing away though (which if they do, you can just Fair, Bair or Nair instead).

That's a really strong combo, do you know around which percent ranges they start? I'm assuming around 15%. This is something useful to know which characters it works in and the percent ranges.

I'm also sure there could be variations of this combo to work on other characters too.

 

[DarkDeity15]

That's a really strong combo, do you know around which percent ranges they start? I'm assuming around 15%. This is something useful to know which characters it works in and the percent ranges.

I'm also sure there could be variations of this combo to work on other characters too.

It will work best on anyone who isn't a lightweight or a floaty pretty much. For those guys it's better to just end the combo with a double Uair, Fair or Blazer instead of attempting the Fair after the second Uair since they will fly too far, and you can still net a lot of % that way. Uair to Bair will generally start working as early as about 20%, while Uair to Fair will start working at about 25% or later. Doesn't really work well on Fox though so I'd assume for other characters with a similar weight and fall speed, always end with a double Uair or instead go for Blazer or Fair.

There's a lot of variables to consider here, and a lot of ways we can handle things. There are a few varieties of this combo as well. For example, Uair > Bair > Nair 1 > Utilt/jab/grab/Blazer or Uair > Bair > Uair > Usmash/Uair all of which deal close to or more than 40%.

There needs to be more testing with DI, but Roy will be rewarded heavily for landing Uair either way. Hell, even wet noodle Uair has its uses. Roy's early to mid % combo game is crazy, shame on anyone who still thinks that all Roy has are a few strings.

 

[DarkDeity15]

Uair > Fair > Nair 1 > things will work from the side plarforms of Battlefield, landing onto the top platform. I tried getting it to work from the ground onto the side platforms, but Nair 1 doesn't come out in time (which confirms that the top platform isn't as far from the side platforms as they are from the ground). Uair > Fair > Uair onto platform > stuff is more optimal in terms of damage and is less situational because you aren't limited to only the side platforms of Battlefield onto the top platform, but it's safe to assume that Uair > Fair > Nair 1 onto top platform things will work longer.

 

[Saltyman]

Anyone know exactly how Blazer works for stage spikes?

You can definitely land the untechable sweet spot but it seems really dependent on the map. Smashville you pretty much need to land your fist near the tip of the stage, duck hunt seems to be impossible to land a proper stage spike with Blazer.

Battlefield is kind of funny though, I thought dragging someone into the stage with the first hits would help but it seems to actually make it easier to tech out of, when I only land one hit it works more consistently.

This is also true for aerial blazer, it just seems like garbage even when going straight up but if you only land the sweet spot on the last hit it can KO pretty early, even with a 45 degree Blazer

 

[EnGarde]

Anyone know exactly how Blazer works for stage spikes?

You can definitely land the untechable sweet spot but it seems really dependent on the map. Smashville you pretty much need to land your fist near the tip of the stage, duck hunt seems to be impossible to land a proper stage spike with Blazer.

Battlefield is kind of funny though, I thought dragging someone into the stage with the first hits would help but it seems to actually make it easier to tech out of, when I only land one hit it works more consistently.

This is also true for aerial blazer, it just seems like garbage even when going straight up but if you only land the sweet spot on the last hit it can KO pretty early, even with a 45 degree Blazer

Here is a video on it:

 

[Saltyman]

Here is a video on it:

Awesome, thanks! Roy's actually really good at getting behind and beating certain recoveries with Blazer that he would otherwise have a hard time punishing (Ike lol)

I think it has the do with the vertical knock back on Blazer, I suspect you actually need to have a bit of an overhang or curved ledge to hit the opponent against some some sort ceiling.

Even when I'm quite clearly plowing someone into a wall with Blazer they seem to always be able to tech it. The bottom of smashville works, tip of the stage works, the wall doesn't always work. Battlefield is the same, only the top part of the ledge works

Another things I forgot to mention, you can land the stage spike while going through the stage with a 45 degree blazer lol.

 

[Saltyman]

You can do some weird Scar Blazer and hit through the stage with your sweet spot, it also covers a large part of the ledge and jumps so not the worse tactic for escaping pressure. Leaves you pretty close to the ground so it's fairly safe if you don't abuse it

 

[Jiom]

It will work best on anyone who isn't a lightweight or a floaty pretty much. For those guys it's better to just end the combo with a double Uair, Fair or Blazer instead of attempting the Fair after the second Uair since they will fly too far, and you can still net a lot of % that way. Uair to Bair will generally start working as early as about 20%, while Uair to Fair will start working at about 25% or later. Doesn't really work well on Fox though so I'd assume for other characters with a similar weight and fall speed, always end with a double Uair or instead go for Blazer or Fair.

There's a lot of variables to consider here, and a lot of ways we can handle things. There are a few varieties of this combo as well. For example, Uair > Bair > Nair 1 > Utilt/jab/grab/Blazer or Uair > Bair > Uair > Usmash/Uair all of which deal close to or more than 40%.

There needs to be more testing with DI, but Roy will be rewarded heavily for landing Uair either way. Hell, even wet noodle Uair has its uses. Roy's early to mid % combo game is crazy, shame on anyone who still thinks that all Roy has are a few strings.

Something interesting to note is that instead of ending with full hop fair--> double jump fair, there are certain percentages where we can indeed actually combo fair --> dair(5 hit combo, according to training mode), with some characters being hit by sourspot and some being hit by sweetspot.

Percent ranges seem very specific for this variant though so opting for ending with double jump fair or up b can still net 45%+ easily.

 

[Saltyman]

Something interesting to note is that instead of ending with full hop fair--> double jump fair, there are certain percentages where we can indeed actually combo fair --> dair(5 hit combo, according to training mode), with some characters being hit by sourspot and some being hit by sweetspot.

Percent ranges seem very specific for this variant though so opting for ending with double jump fair or up b can still net 45%+ easily.

You CAN true combo into spike, there's some issues with this though. Roy has the hitstun to combo into it off fair, bair, jab, up air, or even certain hits from uptilt. The major issue is the tiny horizontal range. The most reliable by far is to hit with foward air while moving forward and immediately jump into down air. Again, lot's of factors and issues here. Almost every character can DI away, heavier characters can get under and lighter characters can get over.

That being said, Roy does have a lot of different followups so it can be hard to see the spike coming. Against characters with poor air mobility (Ryu) it does also seem possible to read the DI to some extent and still combo into the spike. Personally I still like having it, when you do combo into it you can kill from 0% and it has nice vertical range for spiking through the stage. Also the sweetspot KOs grounded opponents extremely early, makes a great punish if you're already in the air.

In some situations you can also just dthrow, fthrow, or bthrow into a spike. Usually not enough time to true combo it, but you can read jump aways with double jump spike. Jab->Down Tilt->Pivot Jump Down Air also gets a lot of opponents by the ledge.

 

[Saltyman]

Anyone have any tips for getting out of uptilt strings consistently with Roy?

Mario and Pikachu are the worst. Around 0% I can often DI into the stage and shield or jab out of it, but at higher percents I always seem to get stuck. Most you can get up and out of, Mario's kind of drags you back in and doesn't even need to move. Also have some issues trying to break out of strings with aerials against characters like these. Forward air starts too high and counter is too slow =/

It's like 40% free damage for Mario and still not the worst matchup. I just really want to find a way out of those easy combos.

 

[dy831532sssfjhhggb2224523]

I'm very inactive from Smashboards in favor of Discord, but I finally got around to labbing different things in a way I feel comfy approaching.

Normally, we use nair, uair, and sometimes fair as combo starters, but we often overlook bair and dair. Even as situational moves, they still have high-damage combos available, and you can start these up while still having safe spacing on dair/bair.

Here are examples of a lot of general bair/dair combo concepts:

 

[DarkDeity15]

I'm very inactive from Smashboards in favor of Discord, but I finally got around to labbing different things in a way I feel comfy approaching.

Normally, we use nair, uair, and sometimes fair as combo starters, but we often overlook bair and dair. Even as situational moves, they still have high-damage combos available, and you can start these up while still having safe spacing on dair/bair.

Here are examples of a lot of general bair/dair combo concepts:

This will definitely be added to the OP. I didn't think that combos from a landing Bair were even possible lol. The Roy meta has really been going places recently. Also I'm really glad that you've figured something out in regards to labbing.

 

[Saltyman]

I'm very inactive from Smashboards in favor of Discord, but I finally got around to labbing different things in a way I feel comfy approaching.

Normally, we use nair, uair, and sometimes fair as combo starters, but we often overlook bair and dair. Even as situational moves, they still have high-damage combos available, and you can start these up while still having safe spacing on dair/bair.

Here are examples of a lot of general bair/dair combo concepts:

There's actually another reason to use Back Air besides the high damage. Forward air starts high, Back air starts low. Characters like Pikachu can't always be hit reliably with nair, uair, fair, or even utilt on the ground. Back Air starts low and has a sweeping hitbox (same as dash attack). These are much better for catching shorter characters or anyone below you. That's definitely become my go to move in a few matchups. Similar startups, but backair will hit below you quicker than his other aerials which may end up whiffing anyways. Back Air sourspot also can trip and jab reset, a bit unreliable but useful on Battlefield for knocking people off the edges.

 

[dy831532sssfjhhggb2224523]

Part 2 is done, covering aerial hit confirms to take stocks.

 

[Red Speed]

Another very situational (and untrue) but decent mixup is RAR sour Up Air (hit them with the backside) with forward momentum at kill percents. The sourspot draws them right above you for an Up Smash.
Also Down Throw to Blazer is worth looking into. It's a weight dependent throw, so heavier characters can always escape them unless they fall fast like Captain Falcon and Mega Man. Lighter characters are susceptible to this unless they fall slowly, like Toon Link and Luigi. Most of the characters it does work on can air dodge through it, making it a 50/50. Maybe on really light characters who fall fast, like ZSS, however, it could always be true. Overall, I think some testing needs to be done to this if it hasn't already.

P.S. I'm new here, first post ever

 

[Saltyman]

Another very situational (and untrue) but decent mixup is RAR sour Up Air (hit them with the backside) with forward momentum at kill percents. The sourspot draws them right above you for an Up Smash.
Also Down Throw to Blazer is worth looking into. It's a weight dependent throw, so heavier characters can always escape them unless they fall fast like Captain Falcon and Mega Man. Lighter characters are susceptible to this unless they fall slowly, like Toon Link and Luigi. Most of the characters it does work on can air dodge through it, making it a 50/50. Maybe on really light characters who fall fast, like ZSS, however, it could always be true. Overall, I think some testing needs to be done to this if it hasn't already.

P.S. I'm new here, first post ever

Up Air->Up Smash can definitely true combo. Down Throw to blazer is easy to dodge at low percents and easily Diable at higher percents. It can work around 30-40% against huge characters, some of them can still punish your landing after getting hit.. Down throw to blazer does not work against good opponents. There seems to still be a misconception that it is safe or a true combo. Roy's Down Throw is incredibly susceptible to DI and has very low hitstun.

Down Throw is not a combo throw.. it can only set up followups or 50/50s. One of the first and hardest lessons I learned in tournament with Roy.. Fantastic move, but it's a counter and stagespiking tool not a viable combo option.

 

[DarkDeity15]

Remember the 52% combo I posted here earlier? Well, I've been labbing the DI and found a few things. After Uair to Bair (which is always true), the opponent can choose to either DI up, down and/or away. As long as they don't DI away or down, you can get sweetspot Uair to connect. If they do DI down or down and away, you can easily get Nair 1 to confirm, which as you know opens up more follow-ups. The best thing about this is that the opponent's DI is very react-able since Bair will put people in lots of hitstun, giving you plenty of time to decide which follow up you want to go for.

The %s where these combos are possible on average is about 17 to 30%, varying on the character of course. At higher percentages, simply ending it with Fair after Uair > Bair is the best option though it is possible to get other follow-ups and extend the combo.

Something I forgot to mention before is that if you Uair to Fair on the ground onto a platform on Battlefield, you can immediately Uair and decide what you want to follow up with from there. If you start on the side platforms and land on the top platform of Battlefield though, you can Nair 1 frame perfectly after Uair to Fair as long as you buffer it. This will work at later %s though because Fair is slower than Bair, and sweeps downward instead of up. Edit: And oops, turns out I've already mentioned this lol.

Up Air->Up Smash can definitely true combo. Down Throw to blazer is easy to dodge at low percents and easily Diable at higher percents. It can work around 30-40% against huge characters, some of them can still punish your landing after getting hit.. Down throw to blazer does not work against good opponents. There seems to still be a misconception that it is safe or a true combo. Roy's Down Throw is incredibly susceptible to DI and has very low hitstun.

Down Throw is not a combo throw.. it can only set up followups or 50/50s. One of the first and hardest lessons I learned in tournament with Roy.. Fantastic move, but it's a counter and stagespiking tool not a viable combo option.

That's very untrue my friend. Check the op and you'll be surprised how much you can get off of Dthrow. Dthrow to blazer is guaranteed on certain characters at kill %. Bair, Fair and Uair are also possible to connect out of Dthrow. If you aren't sure about something, please ask. Otherwise try not to spread misinformation like that.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Pretty sure this is already known, but posting this just in case People don't know.

Roy's tippers are great for walling opponents out and beating out hitboxes. Due to their hitboxes being further away from Roy that his sweetspots, he will usually be able to beat most non swordfighters pokes (things like Doc's F-tilt, Ganon's Dash Attack, etc. while being at a safe range.

Tippers are also great for gimping. Tipper bair, F-tilt, and Fair send the opponent at a really bad angle for recovering while also being able to challenge most recoveries due to its greater disjoint that his sweetspots.

Finally tippers, while leading into very little guaranteed stuff, can setup into a lot of nice 50/50 situations in roy's favor. Roy's tipper Jab and D-Tilt, for instance, are able to setup opponents into a Shield / attack 50/50 at low percents which Roy can respond with either a Grab or DED. Several of Roy's other tippers can also setup into these type of 50 / 50 situations (such as tipper Nair).

 

[Astrofallz]

Posting here so that I can get notifications for this thread mainly but I do have a question.

Why is it that Fair FAF allows us to DJ or use a special move but not A-land? I have always been told this was the case but no one could give me a reason why. In case you don't know, A-land is when you autocancel an aerial before the hitbox comes out. For example, if you do SH Fair and input a Bair, you will always get Fair landing lag. Any help would be appreciated cause I enjoy knowing how things work better than just knowing that they don't work.

 

[DarkDeity15]

Posting here so that I can get notifications for this thread mainly but I do have a question.

Why is it that Fair FAF allows us to DJ or use a special move but not A-land? I have always been told this was the case but no one could give me a reason why. In case you don't know, A-land is when you autocancel an aerial before the hitbox comes out. For example, if you do SH Fair and input a Bair, you will always get Fair landing lag. Any help would be appreciated cause I enjoy knowing how things work better than just knowing that they don't work.

Actually it is possible to get the landing lag from a different aerial than Fair from a SH if you buffer a different aerial right afterwards. For example, you can get the 11 frames of landing lag from Nair instead of the 13 frames from Fair as long as you buffer it before landing. Thanks for bringing this up, this actually isn't something that's been added yet.

 

[EnGarde]

you can replace higher landing lag with lower landing lag, but you can't use the autocancel window to land with no lag: there will always be the aerial landing lag of the move last used.

 

[Shaya]

So after all this time, and generally maintaining the feels that Roy is great just a tad undertuned, I'm pretty sure with 3 number changes we'd have a character approaching high tier.
By design, his recovery is meant to be a huge shortfall - while adding super armor to aerial up-b would come close to nullifying the issue, I believe with just a bit more strength behind his basic game plan things will align well with what was an intentional design decision (rockets and explodes like Fox, swords like Marth [with a little bit of Ike]).

• Neutral Air Second Strike: Strong Hit Damage: 8.5 -> 9
• Forward Air: Strong Hit Damage: 11.0 -> 12.x
• Back Air: Strong Hit Damage: 12.0 -> 12.5

What Roy is really lacking right now is some adhesion. He is too reliant on rage to function - if he's just lost a stock and has no rage he only has high risk moves to KO with, and even then many won't KO as his moves have high base and so-so growth. There's a sweetspot where knockback on his stringing moves (tipper attacks, jab) are primed, but he cannot reliably link into things (aerials) which will clinch stocks. If you DI Jab in at the ledge and get faired/baired at over 100%, I think it's reasonable that he should be getting stocks (as does Marth, and most other FE characters, let alone the rest of the cast). This rectifies many issues, both his ability to reset stocks and his pressure.
Back Air matches Marth's damage, Neutral Air is 0.5% damage less and Forward Air as his most unique contrast to Marth (with it's higher start up/etc) comes out at least 0.5% more. The major difference between 12.5 and 12.0 is shield stun; -5 and -4 on block is quite large in terms of options (hello being able to spot dodge grabs).
I've had someone hack/alter their game with these values and they've been extremely surprised and impressed with the differences in abilities, if you are so inclined I'd recommend doing something similar

Roy's back air is his best aerial, the sour hit scales very strong so it comes out as a KO move often while sweetspot nair/fair aren't able, otherwise being able to combo/set up longer due to it's very low base. The sweet spot is the only aerial he can otherwise KO with in off stage situations without rage (or just in general), I don't think this was ultimately intended seeing as how much effort and nuance was attempted with his Forward Air.

Marth would still maintain a notably stronger neutral air, have a slightly worse scaling back air but a higher base (roughly even; still stronger KO power at 100%), and forward air will be a stronger move from roughly 100% onward but weaker before hand (referring to 12.0 here, 12.5 difference does matter a bit, making it weaker until 120%~).
Considering the mobility differences, ratio of sweet spot to not ("difficulty"), the existence of our throws and jab, and the higher base (rage!), forward air being weaker as a KO move seems reasonable. 12.0% still gives us a -4 fair if it's fresh, 12.5% would still make sense though.

The other things which would be nice:
Up Tilt end lag reduced
Aerial Blazer with super armor and/or higher damage on the final hit (still weaker than the grounded, but not 'doesn't ko at 200%' type of suffering)
A lot more weak hits following back air's numbers, or alternatively growth rates which are slightly lowered.

Why am I saying this?

I don't think it's certain there will be future patches, but I do think there is a lot of misunderstanding about Roy in the general public. They (Lancer types of people) can't seem to get that a character that has a moveset like Marth but doesn't seem to be as easy to use isn't terrible. While we can't rely on and dream there will be another patch to make Roy better, I think if we all understand how small the amount of changes would actually be necessary to push Roy towards very viable, we'll be in a better spot to formulating a game plan that works with what we do have. It may be our shortfall that we need to keep back air fresh for KOs and we otherwise have to be hard-reading Ike Mofos if we're ever at a deficit; and us figuring out cool traps and other set ups into our smash attacks in such situations will be the alternative style of play we have to flip flop between for success. Life would be a lot easier with stronger aerials, but the path needn't be easy.

 

[Shaya]

Oh and pivot grab is the future

With a disjoint on this thing as nice as it is, one can use it to snuff out aerial landings and dash approaches, it should be a lot more common part of one's repertoire, especially considering how potent his pivot game is in general.

 

[Krysco]

Decided to lab a few random things with Roy once I got home from work and wanted to post my findings. Figured this was the best place to post.

First is the percents that characters start landing on the lower platforms of Battlefield after dthrow with no di or rage.

Spoiler

0% starts entering tumble at 7%
Smash Monado 12%
15%
16%
17%
19%
20%
22%
23%
24%
25%
26%
27%
29%
30%
Buster Monado 31%
Vanilla and Speed Monado 32%
35%
36%
37%
38%
39%
40%
41%
42%
44%
Jump Monado Limit 45%
48%
Shield Monado 117%

Plan on testing the same thing with bthrow and both throws with upward and downward di and on other stages like Dreamland and T&C. For now, I've only tested bthrow on Mario on BF and it's 7%.

Tested what percents fthrow and bthrow start causing tumble although got lazy near the end since it seems purely based on weight, I just looked up the weight value for a number of characters. From to weight it's 3%, to 4% and to 5%. That's without rage. I tested with rage as best I could and at 40% on Roy, fthrow starts putting into tumble at 0% and from 50% onward it puts everyone except Shield Shulk into tumble.

Also got a list of characters that can't jump if they don't di fthrow upwards at low percents

Spoiler

Jump Monado

Sadly, everyone can jump if they di up.

Lastly, and this is both incomplete and most likely ruined by di'ing away but I have a small list of characters that I was able to register fthrow to DED upwards as a true combo in Training at 0%.

Spoiler

I've yet to get around to testing every character and as I said, di'ing away most likely ruins it and with di'ing up preventing jab lock situations, it seems that at low percent, di'ing fthrow up and away is best. Best I can think of for a mix up is bthrowing instead since they'll di towards and above you.

Oh, and this isn't something I've labbed persay but just something I've thought of during matches with my cousin but against anyone with a poor recovery, recovering low, does Roy have a 50/50 of sorts? Run off fair them as they come towards the ledge and if you read the airdodge, you blazer back to the ledge and stage spike them.

Sorry if this is all common knowledge and/or useless. I like labbing random things. Got plans on labbing %s for fsmash, dsmash and bair jab locks on every character, possibly doing rage and no rage tests.

 

[MaximalGFX]

The initial reset is pretty easy to get in my experience, so I've been trying to optimize the damage you can do by landing it at low%. The jab to Fsmash is not true and dropping the jab and going straight for a Fsmash might be a better idea. Just wanted to share if it give any idea to for better options after this reset.

 

[Krysco]

Got a small update on my dthrow/bthrow testings. I finished the initial percents for bthrow on Battlefield, no di and I'll have the list below in a spoiler. I still plan on testing these same throws with upwards and downwards di and on other stages but I decided to add testing what the lowest percent they can jump out at. Almost done testing that for dthrow with the first 2 rows of characters. Once I get this all completed, this'll give an idea of when dthrow and bthrow to whatever is a frame trap, where the opponents only options are tech, miss a tech or possibly airdodge since that comes out of hitstun faster. Assuming di doesn't completely ruin it.

Spoiler: Bthrow -> BF platform

0%, enters tumble at 3%
0%, enters tumble at 4%
Smash Monado 0%
1%, enters tumble at 4%
2%, enters tumble at 4%
3%
4%
5%
7%
8%
Buster Monado 9%
Vanilla and Speed Monado 10%
12%
13%
16%
17%
18%
19%
21%
23%
Jump Monado 24%
Limit 25%
26%
28%
31%
32%
34%
42%
43%
45%
52%
56%
62%
71%
73%
Shield Monado 116%

I'll update again once I have all testing done for Battlefield. Haven't even started di testing yet since I added the jump percentage testing.

Edit: Also, since I plan on doing this for almost every legal stage (no platforms on FD and Duck Hunt lacks good platforms since one of them comes and goes quickly, most of them are too high and the bush on the right is small enough that di should prevent any follow ups) and I don't want to clutter this thread or double post, should I make a separate thread about this or is it all fine going here?

Edit2: Figured I'd update again despite not being 100% done with Battlefield. I've finished the jump percentages with dthrow and no di. Currently working on the jump percentages for bthrow and I did some minor di testings and realized how much of a pain this'll be when I get to it. Di'ing both down and away help avoid the platform after bthrow and di'ing both up and towards Roy help jump earlier to prevent the need of teching the platform. Di'ing in just 1 direction rather than both works too. With this in mind, I'll have to see what the most optimal di is for every character unless there's some universal rule for what di is better. I know when it comes to kill moves like say Ness' bthrow, di'ing directly towards the stage is best when close to the side but di'ing down and away from the stage is better if you'll die off the top instead. Also, this technically applies to every character but di'ing away from Roy alone can remove the need to tech or jump at certain percents since the character will just land on the platform and then slide off the other side. It all depends on where the throw is done in relation to the platform. To give an idea, I've tested all of dthrow at the left side of the right BF platform, slowly moving right since dthrow moves Roy a bit and on the very right of the stage for bthrow.

I'm also debating what stages to test this on. Battlefield, Dreamland, Smashville and Town & City are definites since they have large and relatively low platforms. Debating doing Duck Hunt or Lylat Cruise, the former because the only platform anywhere near the ground that actually sticks around is the bush on the right side and it's so tiny that di likely ruins any chance for anything to be true. The latter is simply because the tilting could provide inconsistency. And then of course FD lacks any platforms and to my understanding, Delfino Plaza, Castle Siege and Halberd are no longer widely considered legal stages.

 

[Jiac]

The initial reset is pretty easy to get in my experience, so I've been trying to optimize the damage you can do by landing it at low%. The jab to Fsmash is not true and dropping the jab and going straight for a Fsmash might be a better idea. Just wanted to share if it give any idea to for better options after this reset.

That reminds me of this:
https://youtu.be/8XKHX9eU7m4?t=1m54s

Anyways posting this here, because it could potentially be useful. I don't know if this is a known thing or not, however it's probably due to Roy's weird walk properties and the fact shield doesn't stop momentum.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCQohxAiFTk

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Something that might need more labbing is stale Jab--> Up Smash. On fast fallers, this seems to be a true combo at kill percents.
Other potential kills setups w/ Up Smash
Fair==>Up smash
F-throw ===> Up smash (opponent needs terrible DI for this to work however.

 

[Shaya]

Yeah Jab Up smash is extremely brutal - you're looking at a sweetspot of around 80%ish on jab, with enough rage for it to KO.
If you can - land facing backwards and then turn around jab - you kinda want to have as much momentum sliding you forward as possible both from the landing and the pivot walk shindigs (landing nair1 on hit can also let you get momentum jab). Momentum jab is more likely to get a hit close to the body that will send at an optimal angle for follow ups (kinda like how Diddy glide toss down tilt into fsmash sometimes works at KO% because of the glide toss slide).

 

[Fabulous32]

I was curious if anyone could give me some ideas on what to do for edge guards and roys OOS options? I feel like Roy has some reliable options OOS and I see a lot of top players shielding a lot more than I do, so I feel like I should be looking into using shield aggressively.

I moved this question since this thread seems more active than the Q&A thread and I wanted to track posts to this thread.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Thoughts?