Meta Knights of Elibe: Discuss Roy Strategies and Technology Here

[dy831532sssfjhhggb2224523]

 

[Zoramine Fae]

Nice. I like this.

Did some practicing with Back Air Jab Lock after an Up Air to initiate a footstool. Been unable to replicate without 1/4th speed, but that's because I'm trash at this game LOL

Down Throw also can go into a Footstool if they don't react with a NAir or any other attack.

But here's what I've been able to get off, just the assortment of stuff. Just be warned a LOT of it is based around the opponent being BAir locked, and I'm doing some more testing as I am typing this out. Nice to help out fellow Roy players and if I'm advancing some strategies, I'm happy to be a big supporter despite probably switching my main focus towards my Link.

Spoiler

Up Air>Footstool>SWEETSPOT Back Air>Dash Attack
Did 34%. Doubt this is true.

Up Air>Footstool>Sourspot Back Air>Blazer
Did 34%. More probable than the bottom combo and most likely more useful than the one directly below this. Also, is true unlike the above combo. Probably the best one.

Up Air>Footstool>Fast Fall Sourspot Back Air>Walk Up Slowly>Forward Smash
Did 38%. Might be able to charge a bit, but the bot doesn't get up immediately. Also not a Down Smash so this meme doesn't work.

Up Air>Footstool>Fast Fall Sourspot Back Air>Sweetspot Jab>Grab>Pummel>Pummel>Down Throw>Blazer
45% since first hit of Blazer, which does 5%, doesn't connect. Works with in DI for Blazer, but if you don't do Blazer it does 34%. Relies mostly on inward DI, but can work well against fastfallers who don't go as far from the Jab and can be grabbed until later.

EDIT: Bit later. Down Smash's tip from the front can cause a Jab Lock at very low percents and does 10%. Doubt this will be useful, but if an opponent were to, somehow, be sent into a tumbling state at VERY low percent and missed a tech, you can go for it then set up for a Jab Grab Down Throw then etc.

 

[dy831532sssfjhhggb2224523]

I made up a situational combo/punish mixup that looks cool:

Sweetspot dair -> footstool -> Sweetspot dair -> a quick aerial at low percents, the second dair pops them in perfect range to combo into another aerial. It's 15+15+11/12, so over 40 damage.

I'll upload it on YouTube soon.

EDIT:

The last one's the only truly clean use of this, but the others are there to show that it's pretty interchangeable and you can choose sweet or sour since both combo well at certain %'s.

 

[Zoramine Fae]

I made up a situational combo/punish mixup that looks cool:

Sweetspot dair -> footstool -> Sweetspot dair -> a quick aerial at low percents, the second dair pops them in perfect range to combo into another aerial. It's 15+15+11/12, so over 40 damage.

I'll upload it on YouTube soon.

EDIT:

The last one's the only truly clean use of this, but the others are there to show that it's pretty interchangeable and you can choose sweet or sour since both combo well at certain %'s.

As well as that, you could read an Airdodge, go for another Down Air and home to god that you can get another footstool.

Which, after stale testing if this is possible, does 15+14+13+11+11 or 12 for Back Air/Forward Air follow-up theoretically would deal 65 or 66%.

Insanity.

 

[Jiom]

I made up a situational combo/punish mixup that looks cool:

Sweetspot dair -> footstool -> Sweetspot dair -> a quick aerial at low percents, the second dair pops them in perfect range to combo into another aerial. It's 15+15+11/12, so over 40 damage.

I'll upload it on YouTube soon.

EDIT:

The last one's the only truly clean use of this, but the others are there to show that it's pretty interchangeable and you can choose sweet or sour since both combo well at certain %'s.

Very nice. You can do this after you land an uair -> foostool too since those might be a little easier to confirm with.
I was unaware that dair's sourspot was also able to set up into footstool which might make it more applicable for higher percents.

 

[dy831532sssfjhhggb2224523]

I just pushed the combo to 50+ (less with staling) WITH a safer move to initiate:

Sort of a repost from the Roy Social, but not all users use both, and this is the more appropriate thread anyways.

I believe it'll work on high-level players if Ryo can consistently do a foostool combo that's more difficult to initiate against the world's best players.

If the timing's too tight or your opponent is at a range where this full combo won't work, you can do variations of the original (see the video's description) at different percents or if they react certain ways.

 

[DarkDeity15]

Roy's SH Bair can actually auto cancel on the Umbra Clock Tower stage if you start on the sides and land towards the center of the stage, where the clock's arms are. You can get conversions off of this depending on the other character's weight and fall speed, though it needs more testing. Either way, Roy will probably end up liking this stage a lot. Similarly, Ganondorf's Dair autocancels on Umbra the same way, which can lead to very damaging combos among other things.

 

[dy831532sssfjhhggb2224523]

Roy's SH Bair can actually auto cancel on the Umbra Clock Tower stage if you start on the sides and land towards the center of the stage, where the clock's arms are. You can get conversions off of this depending on the other character's weight and fall speed, though it needs more testing. Either way, Roy will probably end up liking this stage a lot. Similarly, Ganondorf's Dair autocancels on Umbra the same way, which can lead to very damaging combos among other things.

Now I really really wish this stage didn't give me horrid motion sickness

 

[Shaya]

Thought i'd say this in a separate post but apart of my general movement skills and my notion of Roy playing like a hyper Brawl Marth -
Something which has been nagging me for a while was how 'poor' he seemed to be able to dash forward and jump retreating aerials, a staple aggressive mid range technique for Marth and something I consciously go for as Roy a lot.

Basically, it's a quirk of the engine / input difference to Brawl.
In Brawl you could be holding forward, press jump and then shift to holding backwards and you wouldn't be punished; but in Smash4 you will be.

I had a much longer rant here, but essentially, if you are ever holding a direction when you press jump and then change direction (even while still being on the ground: you'll jump with the backwards jump animation) you'll have stunted aerial mobility.

Which sucks for me as someone who uses the left/joy stick to jump quite a lot.

It's barely noticeable on other characters but is very noticeable on Roy (you'll lose half the distance you'd travel in the air otherwise, for ZSS it's 1/5th).

 

[Jiom]

Thought i'd say this in a separate post but apart of my general movement skills and my notion of Roy playing like a hyper Brawl Marth -
Something which has been nagging me for a while was how 'poor' he seemed to be able to dash forward and jump retreating aerials, a staple aggressive mid range technique for Marth and something I consciously go for as Roy a lot.

Basically, it's a quirk of the engine / input difference to Brawl.
In Brawl you could be holding forward, press jump and then shift to holding backwards and you wouldn't be punished; but in Smash4 you will be.

I had a much longer rant here, but essentially, if you are ever holding a direction when you press jump and then change direction (even while still being on the ground: you'll jump with the backwards jump animation) you'll have stunted aerial mobility.

Which sucks for me as someone who uses the left/joy stick to jump quite a lot.

It's barely noticeable on other characters but is very noticeable on Roy (you'll lose half the distance you'd travel in the air otherwise, for ZSS it's 1/5th).

You're talking about changing directions in the air? Like say if I dash forward and and jump out of it, I won't retreat as much of a distance as I would normally out of a stationary jump, even if I get the backwards jump animation?

 

[DarkDeity15]

Only Fsmash (the sweetspot mostly) and sourspot Dsmash will consistently hit all characters below the ledge. It kind of sucks, yeah I know. But hey, Fsmash. Up b and Dtilt will hit characters who peak above the ledge, like Olimar and Yoshi. Haven't been able to test dancing blade.

 

[EnGarde]

Only Fsmash (the sweetspot mostly) and sourspot Dsmash will consistently hit all characters below the ledge. It kind of sucks, yeah I know. But hey, Fsmash. Up b and Dtilt will hit characters who peak above the ledge, like Olimar and Yoshi. Haven't been able to test dancing blade.

Tip dtilt, DED 1 and one of the hits of DED-down 4 (but only 1) will also hit below the ledge. One way to test is to go to Skyworld (the Kid Icarus stage where the ground floating on the clouds can be destroyed), and see which moves hit the destructible stage elements.

 

[Shaya]

You're talking about changing directions in the air? Like say if I dash forward and and jump out of it, I won't retreat as much of a distance as I would normally out of a stationary jump, even if I get the backwards jump animation?

If you reset the stick to neutral before pressing jump, you will still get near full aerial mobility; but otherwise yes.

 

[dy831532sssfjhhggb2224523]

Something I found while labbing, Roy's utilt sweetspots an opponent if he's directly below them and they're on the left or right platforms on Battlefield and Miiverse. It's annoying how it sourspots on Dreamland, however I think we should pick BF/Miiverse more to experiment with this option. It could be crucial for kills or juggling in the future.

On Dreamland, Castle Siege's first form platforms, the lowest platform on Castle Siege's second form, and the bush on Duck Hunt, we can juggle with the sourspot below these platforms, so that's worth looking into.

Lylat is pretty variable, it depends on how the stage angles and shifts, so you have to pay attention to that. You'll at least sourspot and can use the stage's spacing for sweetspots.

Utilt doesn't reach Smashville's platform at all, and T&C's out of the question.

One thing I think we should start doing, is using uthrow and dthrow to force someone to tech onto platforms, and knowing percents we can do that. Probably not as optimal as how we conventionally use dthrow/fthrow, but it's worth exploring.





This might seem more low-level-y, but there's some stuff I've been neglecting since June, and even obvious day 1 stuff needs to be relearned and implemented to optimize a Roy.

I need to:

• Pivot fsmash (both to move the sweetspot deeper in, and to retreat a bit for spacing)
• Back air more (for both setups and kills, it looks really clean and can kill confirm off uair at the ledge)
• Uair confirm more (both for combos at low percents, or setups and kills at higher percents)
• Use up-b's super armor more, as an anti-air if I have the read or can afford to whiff
• Pivot grab more, Roy's mobility makes his awful grab range pretty good, and it covers landings pretty well (especially vs. aerials that autocancel or have low lag)
• Nair 1 confirm more, I've been landing it a lot lately and I like utilt from it most, sometimes ftilt at the ledge. Utilt is affordable to miss, covers a wide arc, seems pretty friendly with nair 1's hitstun, and ftilt's just slightly less good at these things. I don't like nair 1 into smashes, though I might try nair 1 -> fsmash at certain percents if they don't react correctly and I can nab a stock at 60 or so
• Nair 1 early/mid combos, into jab/regrab
• Maybe combo into dtilt more, since I can regrab or tech chase off it

Gawain's doing something with nair 1 to cover tech chase options, both in his Roy tutorial videos and actual matches, I'll play around with that.

I'll be working on implementing as much of this as I can before the 8th and 9th tournaments I'm going to soon. I have work off, so I don't see anything getting in the way atm.







As for Roy's dash and losing momentum if he hops backwards doing it, I like to run into shield, then jump immediately OoS backwards. I'm pretty sure there's some frame data tradeoff (from dash into shield maybe) but it gives way more backwards momentum than trying to go backwards in the air after a dash. You get a shield up briefly, too, so instead of retreating, you could shield or perfect shield if you react to them trying to hit you and then punish.

Roy's walk is really fast with one weird option. If you turn around and walk, he'll slide really far due to how his leg moves. This could be implemented into it, but I don't see it at the moment.

As for ledge options, I like what Serew does with ledge trumps. I've always seen it as some situational option, but Roy can do monstrous things, whether they go high or opt for the ledge without invincibility. Nair and fair/bair if they go high, maybe counter, and then a sweetspot aerial if they go for the ledge.

 

[DarkDeity15]

Sorry if I've been a little slow with adding stuff to the OP lately. I've been pretty busy with Link and Cloud labbing, among other things like school. Once I'm finished with what I'm currently working on for Link, I can start labbing Roy so I guess you can look forward to that.

As an idea of what my stuff might look like for Roy, I'll be looking at which %s combos will be guaranteed and such on every character. If that sounds like a lot of work, that's because it is lol. It's a nice way to pass time though and it's just something I like to do atm. Here's a quick sample (it's also something I'm currently working on):

Spoiler

Link's Dtilt combos:
Fox:
0%: Dtilt to Usmash is escaped by DIing away and air dodging. Dtilt to Fair and Nair is guaranteed. Usmash can be guaranteed by dashing forwards a few frames if Fox DIs away, but the window is tight.
10%: Usmash, Uair and Nair can be escaped by DIing away. Fair is guaranteed if you dash forward a few frames.
20%: same as above, but Usmash is no longer an option.
30%: same as above, but Up b is now an option and is guaranteed if you dash forward a few frames. Fair can now be escaped by DIing away.
40%: Same as above, but Fair is no longer an option.
50%: Same as above, but double jump Nair only works if you're frame perfect and if they don't DI away.
60%: Same as above. Only aerial spin attack is always guaranteed since if they DI away you can dash forward a few frames, full hop and then up b shortly after double jumping. Uair works as above if you FH, though it can be avoided easily by simply DIing away.
70%: Up B and Uair can both be avoided by DIing away.
80%: Same as above except Uair must be frame perfect and up b has a high likelihood of killing Fox at the sides of the stage when facing the ledge.
90%: Uair and ASA no longer work.
100% and beyond: Nothing works. Go for FH Uairs to catch air dodges.

So what would you guys think I should start with?

 

[dy831532sssfjhhggb2224523]

Sorry if I've been a little slow with adding stuff to the OP lately. I've been pretty busy with Link and Cloud labbing, among other things like school. Once I'm finished with what I'm currently working on for Link, I can start labbing Roy so I guess you can look forward to that.

As an idea of what my stuff might look like for Roy, I'll be looking at which %s combos will be guaranteed and such on every character. If that sounds like a lot of work, that's because it is lol. It's a nice way to pass time though and it's just something I like to do atm. Here's a quick sample (it's also something I'm currently working on):

Spoiler

Link's Dtilt combos:
Fox:
0%: Dtilt to Usmash is escaped by DIing away and air dodging. Dtilt to Fair and Nair is guaranteed. Usmash can be guaranteed by dashing forwards a few frames, but the window is tight.
10%: Usmash, Uair and Nair can be escaped by DIing away. Fair is guaranteed if you dash forward a few frames.
20%: same as above, but Usmash is no longer an option.
30%: same as above, but Up b is now an option and is guaranteed if you dash forward a few frames. Fair can now be escaped by DIing away.
40%: Same as above, but Fair is no longer an option.
50%: Same as above, but double jump Nair only works if you're frame perfect and if they don't DI away.
60%: Same as above. Only aerial spin attack is always guaranteed since if they DI away you can dash forward a few frames, full hop and then up b shortly after double jumping. Uair works as above if you FH, though it can be avoided easily by simply DIing away.
70%: Up B and Uair can both be avoided by DIing away.
80%: Same as above except Uair must be frame perfect and up b has a high likelihood of killing Fox at the sides of the stage when facing the ledge.
90%: Uair and ASA no longer work
100% and beyond: Nothing works. Go for FH Uairs to catch air doges.

So what would you guys think I should start with?

It's honestly a really good idea. It's a beginner-friendly way of introducing players to Roy by giving them some combos, and a way for character veterans to possibly pick up something they've missed or have been neglecting. We may find some completely new stuff out of this, which is exciting.

Roy's combos are very dependent on DI, rage, and weight, so there could be multiple combo categories. Bayonetta could be one target, Bowser/DK/Ganon could be one, Fox could be another, Puff or Peach could be the fourth, then maybe Mario or WFT as a final category. Maybe only one will be necessary, I like how you laid it out for Link's dtilt, so I wouldn't mind something a lot more straightforward like that.

If only training mode had rage, but at least it can test everything else with a combo count tool. If you do test rage, you could take footage of rage combos (with handicap % for rage) either in versus or online with someone helping you, then analyze the footage later, and see if an enemy is still in hitstun by going frame-by-frame. Rage changes a LOT for Roy, so I feel it's important to document, but if it adds too much of a workload or doesn't seem too necessary, there could be general pointers and tips on what to do when you possess rage instead.

Outside of guaranteed stuff, anything that puts Roy at an advantageous position or sets up a frame trap if it isn't true should definitely be noted.

I feel tech chasing should be noted, and tech chase percents off things like dtilt and fthrow, but it's a whole nother concept on its own that may not have a place in something like this. The concept of tech chasing has to be explained and learned on its own in a combo thread, so it might be offputting to both the writer having extra work and the players looking to simply learn a few combos.

Mastering when to use fthrow and when to use dthrow is essential to Roy's punish game, and we need to differentiate when one is better than the other, effectively. I feel that fthrow is better in general, but dthrow definitely has times where it's better. I used to do nothing but dthrow, now I do nothing but fthrow and I need to find a balance between the two.

What we can get off of jab is really important. At low, mid, and high percents. Regrabs, stray aerials to combo from it, and rare later confirms are what to look out for. Sourspot jab or jab into a sourspot jab is a really great way to regrab someone and create setups.

Up air is a very flexible combo tool, with both its sweetspot and sourspot. The sourspot is a confirm tool, the sweetspot is a confirm tool as well if you combo into bair at the ledge, and uair can rack up a lot of damage. A few people on the Roy Social and Discord firmly believe that it needs to be explored more as a combo tool.

Up tilt can combo into itself and sometimes other aerials (primarily up air), but it's a tight window and you can't just Mario it, you have to pay a lot of attention. If they can land and shield after utilt, you want to regrab.

The IASA frames on fair are really good, you can fair out of a short hop and then jump again or use a special. Exploring its use as a combo tool would be really nice.

One thing Roys need to do more is get a stock as soon as they can and take the lead. With this, it's important to look into nair 1 confirms, sour uair confirms, and anything else possible.

I like nair 1 into utilt most, and if they'll be out of utilt range, those are percents where ftilt's more reliable and begins to kill. Nair 1 -> ftilt is essential at the ledge, and can secure stocks early off a relatively-safe option for Roy.

Blazer can true combo from nair 1 and sour uair, I just don't like how committal it is if I make a mistake. A note about it being a good option if the player can afford to eat the punish is a really good idea. It shouldn't really be used when Roy is around 100 or so and can be killed right then and there if he messes up or if some outside factor they're not ready for comes into play.

Smashes from nair 1/sour uair aren't true (dsmash kinda is, it's a true combo from nair 1, but it's easy to DI and doesn't kill soon enough so it's kind-of lackluster, while fsmash/usmash kill waaay sooner), but they're conditioning tools that kill earlier than Roy's true confirms.

Something on optimizing side-b's positioning and damage with swings could be really nice, and notes on how it combos from nair and fthrow would be helpful. Optimal ways to use side-b at different percents, and sometimes different characters who can land and shield mid+low variations because of their weight/fall speed is mainly what I mean. You want to either go for up variations or not use it at all vs. heavies and fastfallers around 0 and a bit later, but it really opens up after that bit.

Nair is an excellent combo tool, combos from it (especially regrabs and more nairs) should be documented.

Dair and sour dair sometimes true combo due to the reduced landing lag it received two patches ago, and it does have footstool potential. I'm just bad at pushing that potential at the moment and saving it for later, I have more important fundamental things to focus on right now.









I have to go, but I'll see if I can think of anything later. If I've laid out too much and some of it seems unnecessary, let me know and I'll be able focus on the more important concepts for this project instead.

 

[Jiom]

So what would you guys think I should start with?

Not sure if there is already a list for this but maybe a list for which characters are better to Forward throw or Down throw against.

 

[DeadToReality]

I found this DB/DED tech while messing around with bidou controls in trainning mode. To perform this you need to set the c stick to specials, run and jump in one direction, hold that direction then press the c stick in the opposite direction. This will shift Roy's aerial momentum backwards a few character lengths. Not sure if it has any practical uses but I just thought I'd share. (The first 13 seconds is just PP crouch nonsense)

Oops, I was informed that this was already discovered a while ago. Sorry guys. My B...

 

[Jiom]

I found this DB/DED tech while messing around with bidou controls in trainning mode. To perform this you need to set the c stick to specials, run and jump in one direction, hold that direction then press the c stick in the opposite direction. This will shift Roy's aerial momentum backwards a few character lengths. Not sure if it has any practical uses but I just thought I'd share. (The first 13 seconds is just PP crouch nonsense)

Thanks for the video. That would be a wavebounce (turnaround b-reverse) to my knowledge, not very informed on bidou mechanics. I can see this very useful for positioning yourself to bait out and punish a roll.

 

[DeadToReality]

I switched back to C stick attack because I feel like short hop aerials were hindered. I'll try to learn Perfect pivots and Wave bounce the normal way.

 

[DeadToReality]

No problem Bidou is essentially a pro controller scheme that revolves around mapping a shoulder button to specials as well as the c stick. With the shoulder button held down, the c stick becomes a 1 frame directional input. My Smash Corner has a whole video on Bidou and the techniques that can be performed with it.

Im testing sort of a GC controller bidou hybrid with tap jump on (Up-B OOS). It lets me do perfect pivot d-tilts consistently (I cannot do analog stick PPs for the life of me) and also some other techs that seem very useful for Roy with extreme ease.

Current controls:
Y=grab, X=jump, A+B smash attack off, L and C stick set to special, everything else default. I used to have L to jump (Up B OOS and frame perfect D throw follow ups) and C stick to attack but L changed to special as well as the C stick. To remedy this I turned on tap jump for the frame perfect throw follow ups and Up OOS and I am getting used to A tilts again. Still to be determined if I will keep my control scheme this way but I want to incorpotate PP tilts very badly.

The problems I am coming across is muscle memory of c stick tilts and aerials and applying PPs into my gameplay. But I am working towards the transition and it's my first day actually doing this so I think I just need more time. Maybe in a week or month I will have everything implanted into my brain.

Oops. I meant to edit my last message. If someone can delete this accidential reply that would be great...

 

[Serew]

The DED tech is indeed a wavebounce. Which can be performed by reversing to the opposite direction you're facing
(when you're facing to the left, Input right first then reverse)

but yeah, it is indeed easier to do with special c stick you'd just be giving up your other c stick inputs for that though. (usually tilts), this also can be done without bidou ofc

 

[DarkDeity15]

The DED tech is indeed a wavebounce. Which can be performed by reversing to the opposite direction you're facing
(when you're facing to the left, Input right first then reverse)

but yeah, it is indeed easier to do with special c stick you'd just be giving up your other c stick inputs for that though. (usually tilts), this also can be done without bidou ofc

People "discovering" new tech when it has actually been known since the Brawl days is kind of a pet peeve of mine (he didn't even ask if it's been known already which would've made things much better). I know he's still new to this, but I mean there are resources of information everywhere. Might've been my fault for not including this in the OP (I'm not even sure if he would bother to check it out first though). Either way, this was never really talked about before, so yeah. Props to him for that.

I'd imagine wave bouncing as a way to either mix up your landings (same as b-reversing) or for reads sometimes as someone else said (though not always necessarily for roll reads). Might be nice as a quick punish as well since it's a frame 6 move. This goes for the move as a whole though, not just wave bounces. Throwing DED out a lot for reads isn't very advisable though because the risk far outweighs the reward, so don't go out of your way to land reads with it. What usually happens when you wiff a DED close to someone or if it gets shielded? Guess. If you land it in the air chances are that the move won't even link properly unless they're closer to the ground. I'd usually only go for it as a nice conversion off of jabs, Fthrow and Nair 1 or when I know for sure it'll land, like to cover landing options when the opponent is missing a double jump.

Another thing I noticed about Double Edge Dance is that you can link all hits at high percentages if you land the tip of the first move (and the 3rd I think, since if I hit folks with the sweetspot they tend to fall out then as well), even at kill percentages for hit 4 up and side (they kill at like 150% and above though). The sweetspot of hit 1 will always send people too far away and they'll just fall out. Bad game design imo. They need to change things so that it always connects. Cloud not only is rewarded more for landing cross slash (19%), but the move usually connects better, is less laggy and is consistent until kill %, but I digress.

 

[DeadToReality]

People "discovering" new tech when it has actually been known since the Brawl days is kind of a pet peeve of mine (he didn't even ask if it's been known already which would've made things much better). I know he's still new to this, but I mean there are resources of information everywhere. Might've been my fault for not including this in the OP (I'm not even sure if he would bother to check it out first though). Either way, this was never really talked about before, so yeah. Props to him for that.

I'd imagine wave bouncing as a way to either mix up your landings (same as b-reversing) or for reads sometimes as someone else said (though not always necessarily for roll reads). Might be nice as a quick punish as well since it's a frame 6 move. This goes for the move as a whole though, not just wave bounces. Throwing DED out a lot for reads isn't very advisable though because the risk far outweighs the reward, so don't go out of your way to land reads with it. What usually happens when you wiff a DED close to someone or if it gets shielded? Guess. If you land it in the air chances are that the move won't even link properly unless they're closer to the ground. I'd usually only go for it as a nice conversion off of jabs, Fthrow and Nair 1 or when I know for sure it'll land, like to cover landing options when the opponent is missing a double jump.

Another thing I noticed about Double Edge Dance is that you can link all hits at high percentages if you land the tip of the first move, even at kill percentages for hit 4 up and side (they kill at like 150% and above though). The sweetspot of hit 1 will always send people too far away and they'll just fall out (bad game design imo).

My bad I should have actually checked before saying I found Roy's wavebounce. I have not seen anything like it and I can't replicate it with the B button. Anyways that's just a little something Roy has. Whether it's actually useful or not is beyond me. I'm gonna lab out and see if I find any uses for the DED wavebounce.

 

[Zethoro]

I'm not seeing anything about FAir -> UpB on these boards. Is this not a well known thing, am I just missing something? Because this seems like a pretty nice true combo at low-mid%s to tack on an easy 25%.

 

[DarkDeity15]

I'm not seeing anything about FAir -> UpB on these boards. Is this not a well known thing, am I just missing something? Because this seems like a pretty nice true combo at low-mid%s to tack on an easy 25%.

Really? I thought I had mentioned this combo before.

 

[Zethoro]

Really? I thought I had mentioned this combo before.

At the very least, it wasn't mentioned in the starting post of this thread as something possible thanks to FAir's properties.
It's not surprising it's been mentioned, I was just surprised it wasn't put down as a combo in this thread due to its utility off of ledges as well, and just in general.

 

[DarkDeity15]

So yeah, this is a thing:

Keep in mind that Roy doesn't always have to jab in order to kill with this, although he does if he's not close to whenever the platform stops moving. Fthrow to dash attack works as well if the opponent's % is too high for sweetspot Fsmash to connect. Forward throw to Fsmash by itself is guaranteed and will kill people at 50% off the sides of Smashville. I will probably make a better video later.

 

[Ike Tyson]

Nice find. What are the inputs and is it weight dependent?

 

[DarkDeity15]

Nice find. What are the inputs and is it weight dependent?

It's works on everyone, but depending on their weight and fall speed, some characters can escape better than others, but no one is completely safe. When it comes to chaining the jabs, you need to time it so that they fall a little bit before jabbing again (like Ryu's Utilt strings). Never just spam jabs, otherwise they will be able to escape much earlier or you'll hit them with the sour spot which will send them too far away to follow up with anything. If you want to follow up after the last jab with a grab to end the stock/combo with an Fthrow to Fsmash or dash attack, do it before jab starts to launch the opponent, otherwise it will become impossible to do so and you'll have to go for other options that have less killing potential. Like I said though, you can still just straight up go for the Fthrow into Fsmash/Dash attack at the right %s for the kill or as a simple damage racking combo so no one is safe at all times if they try to contest Roy on the platform. Also, successfully landing the jab string is fairly situational so going for the grab is almost always the better option.

 

[Theosmeo]

I found that a good way to followup short hop Fair is to double edge dance during the 3 frames before you hit the ground. This is good because Fair combo's to the side B combo, you land without lag, and if double edge hits a shield you can do 2 or 3 hits of the combo and jump away before they punish you.

The jab on smashville thing seems like you can PP forward to the edge of the platform and Dair spike also, seems like a stylish way to end a stock

 

[DarkDeity15]

I found that a good way to followup short hop Fair is to double edge dance during the 3 frames before you hit the ground. This is good because Fair combo's to the side B combo, you land without lag, and if double edge hits a shield you can do 2 or 3 hits of the combo and jump away before they punish you.

The jab on smashville thing seems like you can PP forward to the edge of the platform and Dair spike also, seems like a stylish way to end a stock

No, double edge dance is never safe on shield and you will just be grabbed every time. No one will be dumb enough to let you get away with it. It's better to just land and take the lag or simply double jump away lol. Short hop Fair into double edge dance has already been known for a while now.

And that last thing would never work.

 

[dy831532sssfjhhggb2224523]

I found that a good way to followup short hop Fair is to double edge dance during the 3 frames before you hit the ground. This is good because Fair combo's to the side B combo, you land without lag, and if double edge hits a shield you can do 2 or 3 hits of the combo and jump away before they punish you.

The jab on smashville thing seems like you can PP forward to the edge of the platform and Dair spike also, seems like a stylish way to end a stock

Yeah, a lot of this is unnecessarily technical for no rewarding reason. There's no reason to pp before a jump in that kind of situation, either, when you can just short hop to move a bit in the air, or turn around before the short hop if you need to face the other way. This stuff might look good on paper to some, but none of it is guaranteed or safe, and there's always more rewarding options. Jab doesn't have nearly enough hitstun for dair, side-b is never safe versus shield. The lag and how unsafe side-b is isn't worth a 13 frame landing tradeoff, it's better to just cross someone's shield up with fair, spacing it as well as you can, and hope they don't react since it's tricky to. Plus it's a lot easier for Roy to execute. A lot of Roy's "findings" are unnecessarily technical, or technical for the sake of being flashy, and we need to avoid that sort of stuff if our fundamentals aren't up to par yet. I don't mean to be overly abrasive towards ideas, but these findings have a base that could be reworked into better things.

 

[dy831532sssfjhhggb2224523]

This isn't exactly mind-blowing new technology. This is simply using platforms cleverly to unlock Roy's autocancel windows on two aerials. However, it has plenty of fundamental use and can help us optimize.

 

[Jiom]

This isn't exactly mind-blowing new technology. This is simply using platforms cleverly to unlock Roy's autocancel windows on two aerials. However, it has plenty of fundamental use and can help us optimize.

Something to take note of while using this is that you can buffer a shield drop after this by holding shield and pressing down.
If you get a spot dodge you pressed down too late, if you just tilt your shield down, that means you pressed down too early.
The down press is much more lenient than performing an actual shield drop.

SV platform is too high for this but you can still buffer the shield drop during landing lag but the timing feels more precise.

 

[Fledge]

No, double edge dance is never safe on shield and you will just be grabbed every time.

Well, I'm not sure that's entirely true. Since the fourth attack of DED can be timed slow or fast, in shield situations you can set up a frame trap to mindgame opponents. If you're spaced properly, maybe do some conditioning and have a good read, you can either escape (or attack if you're daring) in the window after third attack of DED if your opponent's conditioned to expect delayed fourth attack, or if they think you're going to attack immediately you can delay to bait a shield drop and then attack with the fourth. I've hit lots of players with delayed fourth attack DED like this, which sets the stage thereafter to mindgame for different options after third attack DED. And of course, if you're DED attacking shield from behind, your opponent can't grab directly out of shield without turning first, so to say you'll be grabbed "every time" isn't completely true, though it is valid if someone only ever does full DED on patiently shielding opponents.

 

[EnGarde]

Well, I'm not sure that's entirely true. Since the fourth attack of DED can be timed slow or fast, in shield situations you can set up a frame trap to mindgame opponents. If you're spaced properly, maybe do some conditioning and have a good read, you can either escape (or attack if you're daring) in the window after third attack of DED if your opponent's conditioned to expect delayed fourth attack, or if they think you're going to attack immediately you can delay to bait a shield drop and then attack with the fourth. I've hit lots of players with delayed fourth attack DED like this, which sets the stage thereafter to mindgame for different options after third attack DED. And of course, if you're DED attacking shield from behind, your opponent can't grab directly out of shield without turning first, so to say you'll be grabbed "every time" isn't completely true, though it is valid if someone only ever does full DED on patiently shielding opponents.

No matter what version of DED-4 you use, if you use it on shield, I can punish it with an fsmash out of shield. I'm very consistent at grabbing DED 3 if you put it in grab range, and decently competent at grabbing DED 2 in grab range as well. Once you start using DED, you've made a commitment, so you must be very careful with how you use it and when to stop. It is a useful tool in many situations, but you do give up control, especially when you use it on shield, and open yourself up to potential punishment.

 

[Fledge]

No matter what version of DED-4 you use, if you use it on shield, I can punish it with an fsmash out of shield. I'm very consistent at grabbing DED 3 if you put it in grab range, and decently competent at grabbing DED 2 in grab range as well. Once you start using DED, you've made a commitment, so you must be very careful with how you use it and when to stop. It is a useful tool in many situations, but you do give up control, especially when you use it on shield, and open yourself up to potential punishment.

Yep, like I said if you throw the full DED at someone who's careful with their shielding Roy can get punished badly, which is why spacing is so essential (and why on shield many Roy mains usually stop at DED 3), and I think why the delayable DED 4 frame trap timing is so important in providing a mixup opportunity.

At any moment throughout that one second space following DED 3 opponents have to ask themselves: "is Roy going to stop there? Or is Roy going to go for DED 4? Should I keep my shield up or is this an opportunity for an OOS attack? If I try for an OOS option and Roy does actually go for DED 4, I'll get punished. But if I don't grab and Roy is indeed stopping at DED 3, he can escape and I'll have missed a solid punish opportunity." And of course, the same questions are running through the Roy player's mind, you have to consider your opponent so far, how you think they'll react, in best case scenario making the hard read and in worst case a decisive gut-feeling gamble. I would almost think the delayable timing on DED 4 was added by design just for this kind of exciting mindgame showdown situation.

 

[DarkDeity15]

Yep, like I said if you throw the full DED at someone who's careful with their shielding Roy can get punished badly, which is why spacing is so essential (and why on shield many Roy mains usually stop at DED 3), and I think why the delayable DED 4 frame trap timing is so important in providing a mixup opportunity.

At any moment throughout that one second space following DED 3 opponents have to ask themselves: "is Roy going to stop there? Or is Roy going to go for DED 4? Should I keep my shield up or is this an opportunity for an OOS attack? If I try for an OOS option and Roy does actually go for DED 4, I'll get punished. But if I don't grab and Roy is indeed stopping at DED 3, he can escape and I'll have missed a solid punish opportunity." And of course, the same questions are running through the Roy player's mind, you have to consider your opponent so far, how you think they'll react, in best case scenario making the hard read and in worst case a decisive gut-feeling gamble. I would almost think the delayable timing on DED 4 was added by design just for this kind of exciting mindgame showdown situation.

Depending on how fast a character's OoS options are, many characters can just grab or hit him in between hits, at any time. If your opponent knows what they're doing then you should be punished every time, no matter the circumstance. Stopping or continuing to DED 4 as a mind game might work, just not on someone's shield. DED 3 still has a ton of lag you need to recover from. It's quite similar to Link's Fsmash in that regard but less effective and with way less reward. Please keep in mind that just because something looks or seems cool, that doesn't make it viable. I've seen far too much of this mentality lately.

 

[Fledge]

Depending on how fast a character's OoS options are, many characters can just grab or hit him in between hits, at any time. If your opponent knows what they're doing then you should be punished every time, no matter the circumstance. Stopping or continuing to DED 4 as a mind game might work, just not on someone's shield. DED 3 still has a ton of lag you need to recover from. It's quite similar to Link's Fsmash in that regard but less effective and with way less reward. Please keep in mind that just because something looks or seems cool, that doesn't make it viable. I've seen far too much of this mentality lately.

LOL Ah well, I definitely don't think it's a matter of "looking or seeming cool" or styling, it really is a useful mechanic built intentionally into Roy's DED, specifically I think to give players who've committed to DED but hit shield a kind of mixup opportunity. Also have to keep in mind the affects of rage attack power on shieldstun, depending on the fight circumstances characters won't always be able to just grab or hit between DED strikes.

Just to make sure I'm not badly articulating what I mean by the "delayable timing" of DED 4 (and I guess for general informational purposes), if we put the timing of the inputs between each individual DED attack with dashes, you can execute it with different timings like so:

1-2-3-4
1-2-3---4

And here's a video to show it too:

The fact that DED 4 is still a valid input towards the end of DED 3's cooldown is what makes this a frame trap, a baiting technique allowing for different mixup opportunities.

Also this just came to mind, but of course if one has previously applied sufficient pressure beforehand (say with multiple jabs), shield break is also a real (though very rare) possibility.

Anyways, all in all I do get where you're coming from, DED on shield can in most cases can be punishable, but I just felt that saying that Roys will be "grabbed every time" or "will be punished every time" isn't necessarily true in ALL cases, even against cautious veterans, thanks to the various mechanics at play (whether it's delayable frame trap, rage/shieldstun, shield break, etc.), and just wanted to add my two cents on it.