Kirby's Toy Box - Kirby Moveset/AT/Competitive Discussion

[Aunt Jemima]

I watch all your videos, they're great. You should make PM-esaue videos for Smash 4 imo.

 

[Cryz]

Wow @ Aunt Jemima after seeing your post in the meta survey page i wonder why isn't your title "Kirby scientist"

Post:

Time to convert my disgustingly sloppy notes into an actual post~

Decided to do some labbing with Kirby (as if this isn't what I'm always doing) and found some interesting things. Some of these are obvious, but they're literally never utilized by Kirby mains, so anybody who doesn't actually know the character may find it interesting. Some of these things are minor, but optimization is important!

First, let's talk about B-Throw. This is overall the most interesting thing I've found, and actually makes me think a lot higher of Kirby's throws. While I don't have specific frame data for it, the FAF on Kirby's B-Throw is oddly fast. When Kirby starts to rise after hitting the opponent, if you buffer an option, he does it immediately and looks like he's teleporting, even in slower Training Room speeds. Due to buffered actions out of the throw moving Kirby to this set distance, both U-Air and Fast Fall U-Air autocancel out of the throw, each having their own applications.

When Kirby uses B-Throw near a ledge, if he uses U-Air while drifting to the ledge, you can cause Kirby to land and slide off the stage, grabbing the ledge right away. The timing is similar to how you'd cancel the lag on certain recoveries such as Peach's Parasol by sliding off the stage or a platform. This allows Kirby to launch his opponent off the stage and set himself up for an optimal position to edgeguard. Depending on the percentage, he can also double jump backwards out of the throw to put himself in a better position.

If Kirby fast falls U-Air after B-Throw, he'll land before the hitbox comes out. This actually seems to have the opposite effect when compared to standard U-Air. When you buffer U-Air out of B-Throw, Kirby teleports upwards slightly when the move starts (such as how Marth moves forward during U-Tilt). When you hold the control stick down while buffering an U-Air, however, Kirby teleports downwards slightly. While I don't have definitive frame data, Kirby is at the very least landing nine frames after B-Throw if it's autocancel window follows the same rules as other games. From eyeballing it, Kirby's definitely landing faster than nine frames, though. The main difference with this compared to Kirby's "hup cancel" is that the overall execution is easier, along with giving Kirby more momentum before he lands. This allows for B-Throw to be used as a jab lock set-up against faster fallers (Fox, Greninja, Sheik, Falcon, etc.) and gives the throw much more usage as you can now pressure the opponent much better.

Along with that, Kirby's SHAD can use FF U-Air's autocancel much more effectively than "hup cancel" can, due to the same things B-Throw uses it for (momentum and consistency). Kirby is landing incredibly fast after this, it's practically instant (2-3 frames?), which gives it much more use. While Kirby's SHAD isn't incredible like Marth and ZSS as the only move he can use out of it is B-Air, being able to land so fast helps drastically as a mix-up option, especially in conjunction with Kirby's perfect pivot tilts.

Going on to perfect pivots, there's a couple more applications with it that I've found to be useful. A vast majority of Kirby's Copy Abilities slide when he's using a perfect pivot, but some of the most notable ones are Sheik's Needles, Luigi's Fireballs, Olimar's Pikmin Toss, and Rosalina's Luma Shot. Luigi's Fireballs and Olimar's Pikmin Toss (especially this!) are big takeaways here, as it allows Kirby to move around while throwing out these projectiles. Kirby's full hop double fireballs cover the same space that Greninja's short hop double Water Shurikens do, so when used in conjunction with perfect pivoting, Kirby becomes a huge nuisance. Olimar's Pikmin Toss is straight up broken when used with PP, though. Kirby can use this already stupid ability while retreating and advancing to put constant pressure on Olimar and lock him into places that are favorable for Kirby. Rosalina's Luma Shot, while not being as useful as the others, is still noteworthy as Kirby's Luma Shot has priority over everything Rosalina's Luma does (transcendent priority?). This allows Kirby to retreat while throwing out his super-powered Luma to demolish anything Rosalina does with her own.

Now that the topic of Copy Abilities is brought up, let's discuss Inhale! As has been said before, Inhale is now nearing Wario's Chomp in terms of frame data, which has brought this move up from "can only be used on reads" to "can be safely used in many situations". Due to the improvement on start-up, Kirby can combo into Inhale for quite some time. Both his U-Tilt (regular and sourspot) and U-Air (regular and reversed) set up into Inhale. For specifics, against Sheik, U-Tilt combos into Inhale until 65% regular, 80% sourspot. Kirby's U-Air combos into Inhale until 70% regular, 75% reversed. F-Throw > FF U-Air > PP U-Tilt > Inhale is now our go-to combo when we need Copy Abilities. With this buff, Copy Abilities can now truly be included in Kirby's MUs rather than "if you manage to get this ability".

There's also some other new things due to this buff. Inhale's start-up is so fast that Kirby can now run off the stage and B-Reverse the move to grab opponents on-stage. This allows Kirby to drift under the stage with the opponent in his mouth, allowing for straight-up Kirbycides or using Star Shot under stages like Smashville, Town & City, and Battlefield to kill opponents. Both Kirby's F-Tilt and D-Tilt knock opponents off the stage into a tumble animation, which allows Kirby to Inhale them for the options mentioned above, or B-Air stage spike the opponent for early kills.

Along with that, the Inhale buff makes Kirby's ledge play really strong. Both Kirby's Inhale and Jab beat standard get-up, ledge attack and ledge jump, which either knocks the opponent off-stage to reset the situation (Jab/Star Shot) or gives Kirby easy access to his Copy Ability. Kirby's ledge trump B-Air is guaranteed as the move comes out on f6, which is incredibly dangerous to get hit by as it'll kill at relatively low percents or set up for further edgeguarding. Due to this, you'll almost always want to buffer ledge options against him. Sadly, two of the three options available to avoid trumping are beaten out by Jab/Inhale, so your only option left is to ledge roll, which is extremely punishable. Using a standard ledge get-up or attack is risking even more than it already is, as B-Reverse Inhale grabs both of them off the stage, along with F-Tilt/D-Tilt knocking them off for Inhale/B-Air stage spikes.

Moving onto Kirby's edgeguarding, I finally found out how Stone's knockback trajectory is decided! It's actually quite simple, I just never took the time to really find out how it worked. It's a bit odd to explain, however, so bear with me. As a reference, pretend Kirby's Stone is exactly in the middle above an opponents' hurtbox. If you move it a pixel to the right, it'll start launching left. If you move it a pixel to the left, it'll start launching left. This is important information as you can use it to decide whether you'll try to stage spike an opponent with Stone, or outright kill them.

Next, let's go on to Kirby's B-Air, there's some good properties here. Anybody that isn't incredibly short (Pikachu, Kirby, Greninja, etc.) will get hit by Kirby's full hop B-Air (for example, it hits Ness and Mega Man), which is incredibly safe. While certainly not as effective, this is reminiscent of Kirby's SH Brawl B-Air. This is especially useful for getting B-Air kills, along with setting up for edgeguarding. Due to the speed on Kirby's B-Air, it's a very potent edgeguarding move, and helps tremendously when D-Air isn't a viable option, such as against Pac-Man. Sourspot B-Air frame traps into B-Air's strong hit, which can net kills at incredibly low percents (especially when Rage is involved!) or put the opponent in a terrible position off-stage. It should also be noted that Kirby's SH B-Air autocancels and snaps to the ledge if you use it on-stage, so it's a viable option to get the opponent off.

Last thing. Due to being multi-hit, Kirby can choose to use his F-Air instead of B-Air when stage spiking, as it allows him to move into the stage before the final hit spikes the opponent. This can be used to prevent the opponent from teching due to the "no tech" thing that was found a while ago. A bit unrelated, but Kirby's F-Air, B-Air and U-Air all autocancel when using ledge aerials.

Now, let's move onto combos!

First and foremost, the most important thing. I was wrong. Regardless of DI, F-Throw > FF U-Air is guaranteed on all characters (including Sheik!). The only characters that avoid this is Greninja and Fox, both of which start getting combo'd at around 5%~ with DI down.

Now, onto the important things with this new-found knowledge. F-Throw > FF U-Air > PP U-Tilt is going to be Kirby's BnB combo at low percents. The reason for this is because PP U-Tilt combos into a ton of moves, most notably U-Tilt, Grab, and Inhale. This allows Kirby to get an insane amount of damage off low percent grabs. For example, here are three combos against Sheik, one of which was discussed in a previous post...

Spoiler
Toggle Spoiler

Also, this is actually noteworthy. F-Throw > Final Cutter combos until around 65%~ depending on the character with DI Away, and does 18%, giving Kirby a decent throw combo later on. This makes me like default Kirby a whole lot more, to be honest. There's also the general Copy Ability throw combos, such as Mach Tornado, Shield Breaker, Needles, Charge Shot, Giant Punch, Aura Sphere, Hadouken, etc. which is definitely helpful.

Going into Reverse U-Air, there's some more things found out about this! Reverse U-Air can combo into four notable moves. Reverse U-Air, B-Air, Sourspot B-Air and U-Tilt. For now, we'll focus on the former three. Being able to combo into B-Air is a kill set-up near the ledge, along with an easy way to get opponent into an edgeguarding situation. It generally deals good damage, too (22%). Being able to combo into Sourspot B-Air allows Kirby to frame trap into another B-Air, which can kill incredibly early near the ledge, does very high damage (30%) and puts the opponent in an unfavorable position. Being able to combo into Reverse U-Air, while it may seem a bit useless due to B-Air existing, is really good. Reverse U-Air > Reverse U-Air can combo into both B-Air and Sourspot B-Air, which gives Kirby the same applications listed above. This is DI dependent, as you can DI away, but if you do that and Kirby B-Air's you, you're dying much earlier. It should also be noted that U-Tilt/Sourspot U-Tilt combo into Reverse U-Air, which opens up the same options listed above, but is more character-dependant.

Kirby's Jab clashes with quite a large amount of projectiles in the game, such as Mario/Luigi's Fireballs, Paralyzer, Thunderjolt, Lloid Rocket, Water Shuriken (excluding fully charged), Hadouken and PK Fire (takes 2% then falls out before Ness can act). There's many, many more, but those are some of the more notable ones. Kirby can deal with almost all projectiles in the game through Jab/Crouch, which is good. This is especially helpful as walling out Kirby is much harder for characters than it would be if those two options didn't exist (unless your name is Mega Man, cri).

A bit anti-climactic and random way to end the post, but Star Shot has some interesting properties. The distance the opponent is launched is actually dependent on the percent difference compared to Kirby, using Nosferatu's rules in reverse, as the lower Kirby's % is compared to the opponent, the farther they'll be sent. For example, 0% Kirby against 999% opponent OHKOs, sending the opponent across the entirety of Final Destination and into the blast zone. Oddly enough, 999% Kirby against a 0% opponent ends up sending the opponent through Kirby's body, behind him. The main reason I'm bringing this up is because if Kirby uses Star Shot against a double jump or limited-use move (ie: Ryu's Helicopter Roleplay) it removes it from their arsenal until they get it back through regular means. While I haven't used this much in actual matches, this does have the potential to be good, especially against characters like Yoshi, Ness and Lucas.

ok thanks for reading it's 5AM and I'm tired byeeee~

no pretty pictures, .gifs or formatting makes me sad.

edit: fixed some dumb 5AM spelling mistakes

 

[WootSnorlax]

Hmmm. It looks like reverse uair is really safe. So far for shield pressure I've been relying on well spaced fairs. What is the timing for the uair though? I remember trying to space it and end up getting shield grabbed almost every time. Does it have to be a reverse rising uair or do I have some time to input it?

 

[Phan7om]

Hmmm. It looks like reverse uair is really safe. So far for shield pressure I've been relying on well spaced fairs. What is the timing for the uair though? I remember trying to space it and end up getting shield grabbed almost every time. Does it have to be a reverse rising uair or do I have some time to input it?

Reverse Uair is the safest yes, because the # of frames between the last of the hitbox and when you are able to move is the smallest. I think its safe on shield for most if not all characters if spaced right; I could be wrong tho since Im going off of feel and experience instead of actual frame data for this lol.

 

[smesty]

Reverse upair is the best approach from the ground, it's just grossly harder to execute compared to dair.

But if you are playing someone who isn't a complete idiot, you are pretty much forced to approach this way from the air.

 

[Mega-Spider]

I know I'm going to sound stupid for this, but how to reverse U-air and perfect pivot? Is it like a normal pivot?

 

[Altair357]

I know I'm going to sound stupid for this, but how to reverse U-air and perfect pivot? Is it like a normal pivot?

Couple explanations of how to perfect pivot:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vaR4RM-qr0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJ_ZzAvSFis
Takes some practice, so get ready to grind.
I think this technique is used to extend Kirby's up tilt combos in 64, but they just call it pivoting.

For RAR, you just run and turn around, and immediately cancel your turnaround animation with a jump into up air.

 

[MrPereida]

Hey fellow kirbys, so just some notes here:

•Kirby's hammer is great, sideB into jumps is always a great way to pressure some one. Jump jump...jump weeeeeyaaaaaaaooooo!...Kill.Works great on noobs but beware of projectiles one as simple as flamethrower will throw you off. Also!!! Come down at an angle is surprisingly working well, during mid jump release the hammer the same way you would on the ground BAM! Even a non charged hammer still scares the **** out of people.Sometimes they don't see it coming..if you miss tho goodnight. When it comes to combos? They don't exists when his side b, it's to slow to pull off. Usually i use his hammer flip when it feels right other times to pressure when I got em off stage. THE PRESSURE IS TO REAL WITH THIS. Good luck with this amazing insta kill move (anywhere over 30%)and have fun inhalating someones whole game plan.

• Uptilt to Inhale WORKS ON EVERYONE (besides the anti combo jigglypuff)
Sad thing is tho only the front part of the uptilt will work. They blessed our little pink friend with a faster inhale so it's a lot easier to pull this off, usually you have to short hop but most of the time just wait till they fall down right into kirbys mouth. So to make things clear: up tilt, but only when facing the opponent, short hop to inhale works!

Good luck guys Kirby is pretty hard to play with due his weight and lack of a better projectiles which can be solved.Once you get it pack down tho he's super fun and cute as **** that little boob hahaha. Good luck!!!

 

[MikeKirby]

I'm not sure if anyone labbed and mentioned this but, at 100% rage, Kirby can utilize throw combos that work at or through 6%. For example, with 100% rage, Kirby can b-throw>U-air Little Mac at 0% which originally works starting at 4%; same with Yoshi. Kirby with 100% rage can B-throw>U-air Yoshi at 0% which originally works from 6-11%.

 

[Phan7om]

Speaking of rage, does the extra knockback scale evenly across moves, and also include more hitstun? Probably worded that weird but here is an example.

Kirby can true combo kill Ike with Weak Utilt > Uncharged Eruption around 130% with no rage. With rage, Utilt will send higher at lower %s. This is most likely wrong but for the sake of the example say kirby with 100% rage, Weak Utilt sends Ike the same distance at 100% as it did at 130% (so yes assume both at 100%). Would Kirby's rage Utilt have the same amount of hitstun as the 130% example? And will eruption then kill Ike at that % with rage, or does moves with different kb scale different with rage meaning it wont kill?

Edit: Thats still probably very confusing. If someone who gets what I'm saying can say it simpler, do it plz.

 

[WootSnorlax]

Speaking of rage, does the extra knockback scale evenly across moves, and also include more hitstun? Probably worded that weird but here is an example.

Kirby can true combo kill Ike with Weak Utilt > Uncharged Eruption around 125% with no rage. With rage, Utilt will send higher at lower %s. This is most likely wrong but for the sake of the example say kirby with 100% rage, Weak Utilt sends Ike the same distance at 100% as it did at 125% (so yes assume both at 100%). Would Kirby's rage Utilt have the same amount of hitstun as the 125% example? And will eruption then kill Ike at that % with rage, or does moves with different kb scale different with rage meaning it wont kill?

Edit: Thats still probably very confusing. If someone who gets what I'm saying can say it simpler, do it plz.

Are you asking if rage will also scale hitstun along with knockback? I actually personally don't know the answer, but hopefully someone does know.

And then are you asking if different moves have different knockback scaling with rage? Yes, if I'm not mistaken, different moves with different knockback scaling will have their knockback affected differently with rage. I think the most prime example is Captain Falcon's Raptor Boost ( his side b) that has crazy knockback scaling and it gets crazier with rage.

 

[kirbyfan66]

So I was playing a Diddy Kong in tournament the other day, and I got him offstage. Nair is a great move against Diddy offstage, but I managed to get his barrels at some point, so he went into helpless and I managed to land Hammer Bash. There were so many better options but it felt good to confirm into that move~

Labbed a bit with Reverse Up Air, and yes, this is really really good. Not too difficult to get down, either, at least compared to most ATs in this game. Speaking of ATs, does Kirby get much out of Extended Dash Dancing? I feel like he gets enough out of U-Turning or Sliding Tilts or whatever you want to call it.

(Also Kara Forward Smash is very nice, if Down Tilt trips then it works even against opponents that are far away. You just need to make sure it trips!)

 

[Altair357]

So I was playing a Diddy Kong in tournament the other day, and I got him offstage. Nair is a great move against Diddy offstage, but I managed to get his barrels at some point, so he went into helpless and I managed to land Hammer Bash. There were so many better options but it felt good to confirm into that move~

Labbed a bit with Reverse Up Air, and yes, this is really really good. Not too difficult to get down, either, at least compared to most ATs in this game. Speaking of ATs, does Kirby get much out of Extended Dash Dancing? I feel like he gets enough out of U-Turning or Sliding Tilts or whatever you want to call it.

(Also Kara Forward Smash is very nice, if Down Tilt trips then it works even against opponents that are far away. You just need to make sure it trips!)

It may be of note that dtilt trip to running up smash seems to work on some characters, like Villager, so if they're far away from the side of the screen or something it could be useful.

I don't see much use in Kirby's dance trotting/extended dash dancing because his initial dash isn't really that long, so he can't utilize it quite as well as the likes of Marth. (Pivots are different because you can do up tilts out of them, so they're automatically good for us.) It may be worth practicing though, someone could definitely prove me wrong.

By the way, after getting somewhat good at pivoting, I can confirm that you guys should all learn it because you can basically use up tilt out of a dash and it's amazing.

 

[kirbyfan66]

Yeah, Pivoting with Kirby has always been amazing because of Up Tilt followups. A lot of his really good options are punishable if you do them too many times, but since he has so many different ones it isn't nearly as bad.

Unrelated to ATs and all but related to Kirby, but when on Smashville or Town & City, something I like to do is, when landing, using Stone and popping the balloons. Ignoring the fact that popping balloons is important for style, Kirby is able to get out of Stone much earlier if he hits something, balloons included, giving Kirby a faster and safer landing option, or at least something to mix it up.

Oh, and I went into Training Mode to see where Up Throw would KO Shiek off of the top platform and without on Town & City, With it, it was 115%, and without, it was 165%. This of course doesn't include Rage. So here's my question: With Needles, Kirby can camp out Shiek really well, and because of his crouch, she has to approach. Kirby has really good low % combos, so getting Shiek to around 60% or 70% isn't a big deal; combine that with Needles and various other nifty Kirby tools we've all found, and getting Shiek to at least 115% shouldn't be a big deal. Now, I know I'm using Shiek as an example, but basically what I'm saying is, Town & City might not be a bad stage pick against characters who give Kirby an ability that lets him camp. Up Throw will be KO'ing at reasonable %s (sometimes, should still be buffed) and, depending on the matchup, Kirby can move around pretty well.

 

[Phan7om]

Extended dash dancing, even though its not as "good" as ones like Marth, DK, Falcon, etc. its still pretty good to learn since it makes your mobility in neutral way more unpredictable, and can be combined with PP tilts or whatever.

Also, I just started recently hoping that Sakurai makes Kirby's 2nd hit of Fair send into tumble so we can do some cool Fair spike > Jab lock tricks like MK or Fox.

 

[SapphSabre777]

I am really thankful for remembering turnaround slides (thanks @ Aunt Jemima and co.). I cannot do PPs, but TA sliding jabs, tilts and such is just sickening, based on first lab stuff. Plus, with the TA animation, you can jump and such out of it, making it hypothetically a good mix-up tool as well as an offensive one.

One thing though is bugging me to the ends of the Earth...you all have mentioned reverse U-Air as his best approaching tool. Could one of you show me how that works via replay or video? It's bugging me that I feel like I'm doing it wrong.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Can someone also how me videos of this this Turn around slide or whatever? I hear everyone talking about it, but I dont know wat it looks like really or mostly how to do it well, a video demonsrtation would help best please.

 

[Asdioh]

https://youtu.be/Jfkip-BwL_w?list=PLFXOgPi6_N5Q1AR3Z9l549HBoZzpBAz0h&t=36
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zumpzuCnG64

 

[Waves]

remember if someone is about to hit the ground dair can cover every option if timed correctly, just jump start dair and follow their tech.

 

[WootSnorlax]

I may have found an actual and somewhat easy jab lock setup for Kirby.

I was playing against a really solid Bowser in some friendlies and I figure I'd just mess around with combos. It happened pretty fast so I might have remembered a few things wrong, but here's what I picked up and saw. At some point, at around 30-50% (I really don't remember guys), I did an fthrow -> jump -> Final Cutter and it setup for a jab lock. If you're able to hit the downward slicing part of the Final Cutter while really close it will spike the opponent down forcing them to attempt a tech. From what I saw they fall down slowly enough to the point where you will land and the end lag of the move will go away fast enough to where you can get a down tilt out. So if they miss the tech, which all jab locks outside of platforms require anyway, you can get an ftilt/dtilt to jab lock them!

I'm gonna need some confirmation on this, but this could be really groundbreaking. Few things to note though. You have to be able to space Final Cutter well enough so that when you land the projectile won't slice them. That is why in the earlier statement I pointed out that the downward slice of Final Cutter has to be really close. The downward slice of Final Cutter seems to have enough hitstun to carry them all the way to the ground without them being able to jump/airdodge out, but I'm not sure about it can someone pls confirm this. Also this maybe only works on floaty characters and not on fast fallers depending on how hard Final Cutter will spike them. This could also only be a "bigger" character only matchup thing because this happened when playing against a Bowser.

I'll try to get some sort of video on Youtube, but for the time being lets discuss this possibility. Hopefully I'm not just overreacting to a terrible misplay and that this is a legitimate jab lock setup off of a throw. Try it out for yourself!

 

[Aunt Jemima]

If the downward slice of Final Cutter is talking about the spike hitbox, it definitely has enough hitstun. The hitstun on Final Cutter's spike is quite long, keeping opponents trapped from the ledge of Final Destination until the bubble blast zone.

I'll go test this out right now. Any specific percents I should be looking out for?

 

[WootSnorlax]

Yeah, I should've clarified. Yes the downward slice should be the spike hitbox. I couldn't think of a proper way to word it.

You should definitely try it out on Bowser first. I don't remember the percent exactly, but at the end of the combo it ended up being around 64%. So I'm guessing somewhere around 30-50% as stated in my original post. I remember the string though. It was fthrow -> final cutter -> dtilt -> dash attack. I got so hype up over the jab lock I accidentally dash attacked...

 

[Aunt Jemima]

The opponent ground bounces after the Final Cutter, so they have two windows to tech. Along with that, after the ground bounce, there's no hitstun at the peak of it, so it isn't guaranteed.

If they don't know about it, you can get stupidly good damage/kills, though. Starting at 30%, F-Throw > Final Cutter > D-Tilt x3 > U-Tilt Sourspot > D-Air > U-Tilt > U-Air does crazy damage. You can outright ends stocks at 50% with F-Throw > Final Cutter > D-Tilt x3 > F-Smash. While the reward it there, it's still not worth taking the risk because it's so easy to escape.

 

[WootSnorlax]

Hmm interesting. So it isn't really a guaranteed thing. Man having Final Cutter ground bounce sucks in this kind of situation. Have you tried varying the height? If there is a height where Final Cutter doesn't ground bounce that would make this at least somewhat useful. Also is there a possibility of it working on other characters?

While I'm disappointed about the results it's still a very interesting and useful setup that could prove it's use on some unsuspecting opponents. Also it looks cool. Super cool.

 

[kirbyfan66]

All spike hitboxes cause a ground bounce, as far as I'm aware (Down Air D_D). But can you tech chase with it? Say they don't tech, you get the lock setup. But if they do tech, can Kirby move quickly enough so that you can tech chase? Or if not tech chase, at least follow them and get a RAR Back Air or an Up/Forward Air or something. I don't imagine it working because Final Cutter isn't the fastest move, but I could be wrong.

 

[WootSnorlax]

So I've tried it out myself and the reason I was able to get it on that Bowser player is because his ground bounce is just really tiny. Since it was so tiny the window to tech both times is quite difficult. Other characters, when they bounce off the ground from the Final Cutter, pop up a good height from it. The setup could also theoretically work on other characters that have short ground bounces.

You can't tech chase cause the tech rolls are stupid fast + aren't easy to punish in this game, but you can follow them and get an aerial follow up considering they can airdodge/jump out of the ground bounce. After doing Final Cutter, assuming you spaced it correctly, will have Kirby land before your opponent does from the spike. That concept is basically what allowed this to work.

 

[kirbyfan66]

Well, when I said tech chase I guess I meant get a followup. Bad word choice, sorry!

Still, nice to keep in mind that we can either get a Jab Lock or follow up in the air. It's good stuff!

 

[Phan7om]

I think Kirby's Monado ability is pretty good... oh wait.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6Yn3ZZ5Rh8

 

[WootSnorlax]

I think Kirby's Monado ability is pretty good... oh wait.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6Yn3ZZ5Rh8

My goodness Phan7om... how often do you mess around in training mode? With a character like Kirby you'd think you would eventually hit a dead end...

 

[Ansou]

OKBYE I LOVE YOU ALL I TYPED THIS ENTIRE THING ON MY PHONE~

WE LOVE YOU TOO, RESERVED, YOU MAKE SOO GOOD POSTS! <3

Wow, things are really happening in this thread! I should definitely be spending more time on the Kirby boards. Why am I wasting all my time on Smashboards discussing rules when I can be here instead? I'm guessing it is because I really want to be able to use Upper Cutter and Grounding Stone in major tournaments...

Anyway, it seems like I have a lot of things to practice. My tech skill is not really on point as it has taken very long time for me to be able to consistently perform Perfect Pivots (I think I've got it now!). I think the next thing up for me to practice is U-Tilt -> Footstool -> Grounding Stone -> D-Tilt x2 -> Whatever. Also, I really didn't know about how safe and useful RAR U-Air is until now...

 

[kirbyfan66]

Yeah, all the tournaments in my area have Customs banned now so no more Wave Cutter for me. Oh well...

So in Reserved's giant post which he made on his phone (SUCH LOYALTY MOST OF US DON'T DESERVE <3) he mentioned a pretty neat thing on Battlefield - namely, if you're under one of the two lower platforms, and you get an Up Tilt, you have a lot of options for your opponents wakeup if they land on the platform. Namely, Down Air. So I went to Training Mode to practice some of this, and yes, the stuff you can get off of Down Air is great.

I tried doing Down Tilt setups for Locking, and while the Down Tilt actually seemed to combo on Shiek, she fell too quickly for me to actually get the Lock followup. So I tried it on a lighter character and, while the Up Tilt -> Down Air worked, I couldn't combo into the Down Tilt afterwards. Then I figured that anybody using a character with a Frame 3 aerial will take advantage of it, so I had Ness throw out a Nair and then did my Down Tilt punish on the platform. And sure enough, it works! It was really hard because I was doing it alone, but around 34%, I got this underneath the platform:

Up Tilt -> Down Air -> Ness Nair block -> Down Tilt -> Run off/fast fall -> Down Tilt x3 -> Followup

I'm sure there's more to get off of this but that's what I found. Of course, this isn't a true combo since Ness (and most characters, really) can just jump away, but if they try to punish, we can punish right back! Or we can follow them into the air and try and follow up, but that's a different topic. I can try to record it but I only have really horrible laptop quality so... who knows.

 

[T Luthor]

Because of the combo's using tilts, do you guys have your c stick set to tilt or smash, I've been thinking about changing mine from smash to tilt for easier D-tilt's and U-tilt chains....

 

[kirbyfan66]

I'm pretty sure we all agree that it comes down to personal preference, but a lot of Kirby's like to use C Stick for tilts. I'm one of them, although you lose out on some nifty things by not having it as Smash Attack. You gain a lot having it for tilts, though.

 

[T Luthor]

I'm pretty sure we all agree that it comes down to personal preference, but a lot of Kirby's like to use C Stick for tilts. I'm one of them, although you lose out on some nifty things by not having it as Smash Attack. You gain a lot having it for tilts, though.

I think I'll change considering my main kill set up is D-Air to D-smash and it's really really easy to pull of( well when i think about killing I use that, otherwise i just read the ledge get up, or my personal favourite, D-air off stage until they give up), and it'll open up alot more options for my play style

 

[Asdioh]

Cstick Attack is objectively better, as far as I know. As long as you don't screw up your smash attacks (Like I do!) it's better. You can pivot tilts, which is more useful than pivot smashes. You can Shorthop Upair much better. You can turn around during uptilt combos more easily. Your momentum won't get stopped by holding the Cstick too long in the air. You can uptilt out of a crouch instantly. Stuff.

 

[T Luthor]

"Stuff" is what truly motivated me in that message to use c stick tilt

 

[kirbyfan66]

(Like I do!)

The struggle. It's always so bad when they're at KO % and I flub a Forward Smash punish. ;__;

Is Perfect Pivot Down Smash a good ledge trump punish? Or at least, a good punish if your opponent grabs the ledge without invincibility? Doing an Up Tilt out of crouch is easily my favorite benefit of C-Stick Attack though, it works so many wonders.

 

[Ansou]

"Stuff" is what truly motivated me in that message to use c stick tilt

It might take some getting used to, but I definitely feel that tilt-sticking is the optimal way to go.

 

[Altair357]

Important Kirby tech: If you guys aren't angling your forward smashes upward, you should start doing it. Up-angled kills earlier, which could change the outcome of a set.

It does have a tiny bit less range, but this usually doesn't matter. As a side note, down-angled doesn't seem to have more range than normal, and it has the least knockback, so I advise against doing it.

EDIT: Can confirm down-angled has even less range than regular and is basically useless.

 

[T Luthor]

Important Kirby tech: If you guys aren't angling your forward smashes upward, you should start doing it. Up-angled kills earlier, which could change the outcome of a set.

It does have a tiny bit less range, but this usually doesn't matter. As a side note, down-angled doesn't seem to have more range than normal, and it has the least knockback, so I advice against doing it.

thanks, I'll remember this in my battles