Kirby's Guide to Secondaries

[Kewkky]

I'm not saying you're speaking out of theory. I phrased it wrong.

What I'm trying to say is, when I look at the theory, yeah, I can see Kirby having a hard time. But when I go and play the match-up, it doesn't feel disadvantaged. Maybe it's my playstyle, dunno.

Ahz, awright, my bad then.

Well, maybe it's just that you're that much better than him? No offense meant, by the way. Here in PR, LingLing is the best player so you can imagine his skill is pretty high, and beating him by outplaying him requires a lot of skill. Maybe it's my playstyle as well here, but I think that next time we discuss the MU discussion, I'd like to hear everything the DDD players want to say about the MU. Maybe they have outdated info? maybe the ones who made it 45:55 our favor were the ones never at tourneys/the ones who play against ChuDat?

I mean, I've tackled the MU from many different angles, and it just seems to me that DDD has the advantage. His playstyle is more or less like ours (fish for grabs, edgeguard, play footsies by aircamping...), except that his damage output has a higher "no less than" than our damage output (he does no less than 16% with a grab, we do no less than 10% with a grab), he survives longer, his bair has more range and speed (we either trade hits or are beaten), his grab range is better than ours, and has some kill setups (Buuman Trap)... This along with the experience I have gotten pretty much point towards DDD having an advantage...

I mean, I **** other DDDs real bad (as a matter of fact, I even **** MKs and Snakes here), like 3-stock tourney-match ****, but the way he uses his DDD taught me that the MU wasn't as easy as I thought it to be. It's not that he's a better player or than I'm a better player, it's that DDD's tools are better than Kirby's. And I've tried finding ways I can change my opinion, but the more I play with him, the more the opinion tightens in my mind.

 

[Ledger_Damayn]

Yeah... that Buuman trap is pretty much a hard timer for sad Kirby. We don't have anything near that guaranteed, lol, except perhaps successfully predicting his recovery with 2nd hit of Giant Swing x_x.

My roommate, a DDD main, and I have discussed this at great length. He still sees it as 50:50 or 55:45 in Kirby's favor, but his reasons generally revolve around my ability to correctly predict him and Fsmash for early kills. I can't win if I don't do that lol. And I don't think matchup percentages should rely on pure prediction.

 

[Katakiri]

Spoiler

Wow, I never post here anymore do I?

I don't go by a lot this board's MUs so I think I'll build one of these for myself based on my own personal match-ups to see my characters as a whole. (With Kirby, Squirtle, Ivysaur, Charizard, & Geodude this is gonna be stupid.)

But if you think you'd need one of Kirby/PT based on your MU chart (Like any Kirby but me uses PT), I might help you out on that.
Great idea btw

 

[TaterSalad0811]

Still, at worst it's 45-55 , though individual's skill level and playstyle is what really makes the difference, there's no solid theoretical way to solve this, and conflicting results make it difficult to finalize, lets just leave it at 45-55 and call it a day, if you can beat D3, good for you, if not, ask the other hypothetical player.

And how did this get into the secondaries thread?

 

[fromundaman]

Lol, I'm actually in favor of 55-45 in DDD's favor for Kirby. It's not that bad. You can bair poke shield campy DDD's without getting grabbed if you space it right. It's definitely not an easy matchup though.

I like getting his power in that matchup because I can use it's better range to stop pivot grab camping. I have no freaking clue how else to deal with DDD's pivot grab as Kirby. It's range is dumb.

@Fromundaman - Yeah, you're going to get grabbed. But Brawl has no follow ups. You'll get your 8-12% from a grab, maybe a follow up if you predict correctly, and potentially a juggle, but that's not nearly enough to offset all the dumb stuff that Marth does to Kirby while Kirby fishes for that grab. Lol, and spacing Bairs is a one way street to tipper fair kill at like double digit percentages.

Pretty much agreed completely with this and Kewkky's post.

I just want to point out that if somehow you manage to bait an UpB: that's a perfect inhale opportunity.

Also, to whoever said this: If you try to Dair him when he recovers... can't he use UpB SA to survive then put you in a nad position?

 

[TaterSalad0811]

Even if he UpB's you still can follow the Dair with a FS, which in Super Theory Bros. Brawl, would then combo into a F-falled Dair... you see where I'm going.

But even if it's just 1 Dair>footstool, his recovery would have to be near perfect to sweetspot the ledge, and he'd have to cancel the UpB at the right time as well. And that's assuming he's clear away from the stage, if any part of him is under it, he then risks self-destructing.

And don't worry, more charts (along with updated others) will be on the way... as soon as I start one... Nah, maybe later.

But I am trying, those two came from one night where I had nothing to do and got an idea, it's hard to find the time to do the research, compare numbers, make the charts, re-check the numbers, etc.

 

[fromundaman]

Even if he UpB's you still can follow the Dair with a FS, which in Super Theory Bros. Brawl, would then combo into a F-falled Dair... you see where I'm going.

I meant the super armor from his UpB will make him go right through it.

Unless you meant hitting him on the way down, but you know, then that's not really trying for a gimp...

 

[TaterSalad0811]

It is if he gets sent lower than he can recover from.

Work with me here.

 

[fromundaman]

But... shouldn't he be over the stage by the time he's coming down? I mean, if he isn't he's going to die anyway if you just grab the ledge.

 

[Kewkky]

It is if he gets sent lower than he can recover from.

Work with me here.

But... Why even risk it if he can't even recover? What if he recovers afterwards due to you whiffing the dair and hitting him with a single hit only, while he's at the apex?

 

[TaterSalad0811]

Sorry for the confusion, I was referring to hitting him BEFORE the UpB, seeing as any D3 I've ever played likes to use jumps before resorting to that. In a sense, if you were to make D3 waste his jumps so that the UpB comes in too late to save him from an edgehog, it works out in STBB.

Again, I re-read my post, and I admit, my wording was terrible.

And I'm gonna see if I can reserve my copy of Tri tonight. That demo should help with my recent lack of hype.

 

[fromundaman]

Okay... then I go back to the very first thing I said: If a good D3 sees a Dair coming, why wouldn't he UpB to go through it?

 

[TaterSalad0811]

if you run off the stage and do a dair on the c-stick, which automatically fastfalls, it comes out with little warning. Not to say it can't be avoided, because nearly every attack in the game can be avoided one way or another. And if you see the super armor kick in, then DI to the stage as you fall past him so you don't take a hit, while giving him a bit of %.