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Social Kirby & The Amazing Cats

TimG57867

Smash Ace
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Aug 27, 2015
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512
So then the patch depends that we become better as players in terms of how we play, move, and think as kirby mains? I can understand how this is like a slap in the face to a lot of what we've worked towards but personally I'm excited to see what we'll bring to the table in the future. I mean very few kirby's that I see utilize perfect pivoting in the way that other characters do, granted kirby's dash length isn't nearly as long as the characters who really benefit off of it but it's still something that we don't do, sure we won't be able to throw out moves like dair out as much anymore but I mean with the patch that nerfed diddy they found a way around that, granted Diddy has better approach options than Kirby but they had to change their entire playstyle around to stay viable. Why couldn't we do the same?
Plus the metagame won't shift overnight. I personally think the negative effects of a metagame being more mobile have been overstated a bit, but even if it proves considerably harmful to us I think we can ultimately benefit from the shield nerf in the long run. We just don't have the frame data in our aerials, specials, and smashes to abuse it the same way other characters do. With the right adjustments to our moveset such as less end lag on D-Air and a Down B that comes out faster, this shield nerf could actually help our CQC game. Also, while we will have to power shield more, that has become easier to do thanks to the adjustments to shield stun and shield lock. If we get good at powershielding, our matchups against certain projectile based characters could actually improve. I am also not sure how much the game being more mobile will actually hurt us. I'd imagine this nerf would lead to a more offensive game so many players might actually become more willing to come to us. And on the flipside, I can only see a handful of matchups that'll become notably worse due to this as most characters either are forced to approach due to lacking projectiles or them being nullified by our crouch or aren't mobile enough to maintain a solid turtling game that we couldn't eventually get down. I've never really relied on my opponents using shield needlessly to win, so this just gives me less incentive to do so. I am pretty sure we'll be able to adapt.
 

Asdioh

Not Asidoh
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Where is it? It's either in like, Texas or California somewhere. Which is really far away. And I main Kirby, so I have no chance of winning, what's the point ;_;?!?!?
Also, when is it? And why is it? What are the rules? Who's gonna win?
 

Agent Emerald

Smash Journeyman
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Oct 1, 2014
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Aunt Jemima Aunt Jemima Asdioh Asdioh I did not ask for this double vision

What makes it even spookier is that both of your mains list is all Kirby except for one game where it's an FE character

please stop with all this spookiness
 
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Phan7om

ドリームランドの悪夢
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LOL MySmashCorner, a lot of that stuff is like super unoptimal, or the %s are wrong. But I guess the video is pretty good. RIP me tho
 
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Aunt Jemima

It's ya girl
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Jul 2, 2014
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Also, Uptilt->Inhale is actually a true combo

I think
Yeah, it is. I've tested it a bunch.

I mean... I don't understand how he can say Sourspot U-Tilt > Inhale isn't a true combo yet goes on about how these Copy Abilities with even longer start-ups are, lol.
 

Vinylic.

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Got 7th at Pop'n Off. I'm off to Nebulous at around 12pm today and it's going to be stressful this time.


Edit (10/14/15): I'm solo maining kirby after how I performed with jiggs on sunday. Really upsetting run.
 
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KingDaiGurren

Smash Journeyman
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Aug 6, 2014
Messages
236
Only asking because I have no access to play smash rn but has the after math of the recent patch been as bad for Kirby as we thought?
 

Agent Emerald

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From what I've read around here, things will gradually get worse for Kirby as people learn to use non sheild options and then realize how bad his neutral game is. It's gonna be a while though thanks to everyone having a whole year tho get conditioned to shield a lot.
 

TimG57867

Smash Ace
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Aug 27, 2015
Messages
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Only asking because I have no access to play smash rn but has the after math of the recent patch been as bad for Kirby as we thought?
2 Old Posts from SapphSabre777 and t!MMY:

I'm a little late to the party, but I figure it's better for me to share my thoughts on the subject now rather than never.

The first thing I thought of when seeing the change to Shields in 1.1.1. was Kirby's D-air. With it's slow start-up and sad landing lag of course extra Shield Stun would be a big welcome to Kirby's approach/offense options. From what I can tell, however, is that D-air remains unsafe on Shield in general. It may actually be a little more safe, but for practical purposes it's negligible. Depending on how safe it was to throw out against a Shield, this could have been a very useful and powerful attack. Oh well.

Kirby's other attacks also benefited from the extra Shield Stun perhaps a little more than D-air, but again, nothing to the point where Kirby can now attack wantonly. The same can be said of Kirby's ground-based attacks which are now just a little safer on-Shield, such as Tilts or Jabs, but nothing that I have found that can lock an opponent in-Shield or allow for notable pressure and aggro play.

The argument that the 1.1.1 patch is actually detrimental to Kirby has merit. For players who are familiar with fighting against Kirby the Shield Mechanics are generally less detrimental than for the Kirby player. It is, of course, match-up dependent, but Kirby is less likely to force the opponent into a Shield than he is forced to Shield. Also, Shielding is (or, perhaps, was) an oft-used tool to get Kirby in against an opponent who can strike first (usually due to range or speed in relation to Kirby's range/speed options). This, along with globally reduced roll invincibility, can actually hinder Kirby's approach/offensive options.

Kind of silly, huh?

I think the vast majority of players don't keep up with Kirby frame data/tech/meta so a lot of this will be overlooked and overwhelmingly inconsequential. Kirby's just going to do the same stuff he's going to do from 1.1.0 and prior, but other characters will benefit arguably better in 1.1.1/1.1.2 than he does.

Is Kirby viable now?

I think Kirby's always been viable: he's always had the tools to win any given match-up (except possibly vs. Mii Brawler). The problem is that his tools are way harder to use and he doesn't have a easy-win option that a lot of Top Tiers have. The sheer amount of skill and talent required to play and win with Kirby is much greater than many other characters to the point where it's more feasible to play a similar character that does Kirby stuff better. Also, Kirby has plenty of match-ups that may not be atrociously difficult, they certainly can seem atrociously obnoxious to participate in (most notably the characters that play keep-away).

He's going to need a much bigger change to be 'agreeably viable'. It won't be to his speed, because he's intended to be a slow character. It can't be out-right KO power or obviously 'dumb-good' attacks either, because that would just be poor balancing. Something about his risk-to-reward would have to be buffed so that good players who manage to get in are keeping up with their opponents. His combo game with the buffs to D-throw/F-thorw have helped a lot, he just needs something that makes getting a KO more reliable such as: Up Throw knockback, or some sort of way to get a B-air, a Smash Attack, or Stone/Hammer.

That's about all I have to say on the subject.

I actually asked @MikeKirby on my Skype about Kirby's current viability now with 1.1.1 not too long ago. If I recall correctly (since I don't have Skype in front of me), he and a lot of the other Kirby mains believed that not a lot has changed in terms of viability.

Overall, though, him and a lot of other big Kirby mains (such as Ken109 and D3K) say that not a whole lot has been changed overall about his outlook, mentioning a lot about how he is nowhere near as bad as he sounds in theory with this patch. Not quite sure what this means, and I'm just paraphrasing, but they think that Kirby did not get as impacted as other characters.

Of course, this is just me trying to remember what they say, and I might just be saying things wrong; that or I caught them when they were drunk or something. I'll double-check later.

TL:DR: Kirby hasn't really benefited much, especially compared some of other characters. But at the same time, it probably isn't going to hurt him TOO much in the grand scheme of things.

I personally don't think he's been hurt as much as previously thought. But if he does suffer, I feel that Kirby could easily benefit from this change and keep up if he simply got:

1. Better frame data on his D-Air, Up Air, N-Air, Up Smash, Down Smash, Down B, and Up B (Better frame data in general pretty much)
2. Longer range on Final Cutter's projectile to fix his neutral
3. An Up Throw that kills Mario at 150% without rage.
 
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Zethoro

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I was just watching the E3 invitational with zero and hungrybox again, and it made me so sad.
Why? Up-Throw killed at 80 at one point.
Why did they remove a kill throw they just gave him? With that alone he'd be high-tier.
 

Mega-Spider

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I was just watching the E3 invitational with zero and hungrybox again, and it made me so sad.
Why? Up-Throw killed at 80 at one point.
Why did they remove a kill throw they just gave him? With that alone he'd be high-tier.
I think 80's a little too powerful. I'd have it kill at 100 or 120, kinda like Ness's Back Throw.
Was this with or without rage?
 

Zethoro

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I think 80's a little too powerful. I'd have it kill at 100 or 120, kinda like Ness's Back Throw.
Was this with or without rage?
With 100% rage on the mid-height platforms of BF. I know 80's really strong but I'd still like it to kill at a reasonable percent.
 

Mega-Spider

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With 100% rage on the mid-height platforms of BF. I know 80's really strong but I'd still like it to kill at a reasonable percent.
Wow, that's really good. I'd probably move it up to at least 110 and that'll give us a safe kill option like Ness's Back Throw.
 

Phan7om

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I dont know about you guys, but I would not want Kirby's up throw to get close to as powerful as Ness' Bthrow... but obviously it needs to be stronger. Our Bthrow should not kill sooner than Uthrow.
 
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t!MmY

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Up-Throw killed at 80 at one point.
Why did they remove a kill throw they just gave him? With that alone he'd be high-tier.
It's been a while since I saw that match, but I thought it was high 80's (basically almost 90%). With a seething Rage and the fact that no one knew about how the DI worked at the time, it's not too surprising it got a KO on one of the lightest characters in the game with the help of the platform's height.

I don't think that's too strong for *that* version of the game (beta version), because other characters had ridiculous throws that KO'd without having to use overhead platforms and everyone just had to deal with it (pre-patch Sonic, lol). However, with all the Hoo-Hahs, Luigi Jank, and Sonic B-throw nerfs that have helped polish up the game, I feel like it might be a little too strong even for a Kirby who doesn't have very reliable KO options. I think I would like to see it KO at 100% without rage on the highest platform of Deamland. I have no idea what this would equate to with 0% rage on Final Destination, but if it was closer to 130% to 150% I'd be pretty happy.
 

Zethoro

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It's been a while since I saw that match, but I thought it was high 80's (basically almost 90%). With a seething Rage and the fact that no one knew about how the DI worked at the time, it's not too surprising it got a KO on one of the lightest characters in the game with the help of the platform's height.

I don't think that's too strong for *that* version of the game (beta version), because other characters had ridiculous throws that KO'd without having to use overhead platforms and everyone just had to deal with it (pre-patch Sonic, lol). However, with all the Hoo-Hahs, Luigi Jank, and Sonic B-throw nerfs that have helped polish up the game, I feel like it might be a little too strong even for a Kirby who doesn't have very reliable KO options. I think I would like to see it KO at 100% without rage on the highest platform of Deamland. I have no idea what this would equate to with 0% rage on Final Destination, but if it was closer to 130% to 150% I'd be pretty happy.
91% after the throw, 81 before it, HBox was at 110-ish %.
I'd be happy if it killed most of the cast by 150 on FD. That sounds great.
 

Asdioh

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I don't remember exactly how strong it was in other games. Anyone have numbers for comparison? And how "strong" those numbers are, in the context of their games? For example, I believe Brawl Upthrow was a bit stronger than our current one, maybe? But in Brawl, almost all moves did more damage, and some moves were definitely stronger. I know I've seen videos of Brawl Kirbys Fsmashing Meta Knight near the edge of Smashville, and killing easily at only like 62%. I know N64 Kirby's "Up"throw is pretty strong, but a lot of throws can kill in that game. I don't remember how strong Melee Kirby's Upthrow is, but I'm pretty sure he couldn't land on platforms, so it was weaker in that regard, but stronger than this one, maybe? And most characters kill at earlier percents (and do like double the damage) in Melee anyway.

All I know is that if I'm fighting anyone around Ike's weight or heavier, and I'm on FD or somewhere that has no platform above me, I'm not even willing to Upthrow above 190% unless I have an obscene amount of Rage, because it's easy to DI and just won't kill. Yeah it's... definitely too weak.

So Nairo beat ZeRo yesterday. Apparently a big MLG tournament happened, and I knew literally nothing about it, which is strange considering how hyped up TBH5 was, but I didn't hear anything about something as famous as MLG. Then again, I've been taking a bit of a Smash break lately so I haven't been paying that much attention \(o_o)/
 

KingDaiGurren

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So Nairo beat ZeRo yesterday. Apparently a big MLG tournament happened, and I knew literally nothing about it, which is strange considering how hyped up TBH5 was, but I didn't hear anything about something as famous as MLG. Then again, I've been taking a bit of a Smash break lately so I haven't been paying that much attention \(o_o)/
I had no clue either, it was like a weird thing to come home to and see at like 1 in the morning. Really surpirsed it wasn't hyped up by VGBC, TLOC, or anyone else... but good on Nairo though.
 

Agent Emerald

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So Nairo beat ZeRo yesterday. Apparently a big MLG tournament happened, and I knew literally nothing about it, which is strange considering how hyped up TBH5 was, but I didn't hear anything about something as famous as MLG. Then again, I've been taking a bit of a Smash break lately so I haven't been paying that much attention \(o_o)/
Practically no one knew about it. Heck, I only found out about it while Melee's top 12 was going on.

Sm4sh's top 8 were insane though. Ryo vs Relfex was too crazy.
 

t!MmY

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I don't remember exactly how strong it was in other games. Anyone have numbers for comparison?
Kirby (Brawl), U-throw KO comparison:
Highest: 186% (Dedede) :dedede:
Lowest: 124% (Jigglypuff) :jigglypuff:

That is with no Directional Influence, middle/center of Final Destination. (and Rage is not a factor for Brawl).

Asdioh said:
I know N64 Kirby's "Up"throw is pretty strong, but a lot of throws can kill in that game. I don't remember how strong Melee Kirby's Upthrow is, but I'm pretty sure he couldn't land on platforms, so it was weaker in that regard, but stronger than this one, maybe
There was no Up Throw in SSB(64). Kirby's Forward Throw would be the approximate equivalent in that game (it could also be considered his "Standard Throw" because there was no Pummeling, and pressing the Attack Button would result in his Ninja Drop).

And it may have been a little while since I last played SSB1, but I'm pretty sure he landed on overhead platforms. I know I could go for a Throw KO on Jigglypuff if I got her to about 110%. It's pretty strong for a Throw relative to all of Smash Bros. games, but for SSB1 it was not anything special (DK & Pikachu would be the more notable Judo Champs with their respective B-throws).

Note: This is NTSC version Kirby. His throws are a little different in the Japanese version.

Kirby's U-throw in Melee must have been pathetically weak because I never bothered using it for KOs. That's notable because F-tilt was one of Kirby's best KO options after U-air, and it usually didn't KO until 150% to 180%. U-throw in Melee was basically the "I'm using this Throw because B-Throw/F-Throw don't work and D-throw would give you a free hit on me" option.

Asdioh said:
So Nairo beat ZeRo yesterday. Apparently a big MLG tournament happened, and I knew literally nothing about it, which is strange considering how hyped up TBH5 was, but I didn't hear anything about something as famous as MLG. Then again, I've been taking a bit of a Smash break lately so I haven't been paying that much attention \(o_o)/
This is ironic because I usually don't get to watch streams, but I watched yesterday's MLG stream. XD
MLG New Orleans should have been really hype considering it's the first MLG to feature Smash for a while now, as far as I'm aware. Future MLGs will probably be REALLY hype taking this one into consideration.
 
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MrMFC

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Actually most people weren't hyped because of the rules (they even wanted to ban diddy as the glitch existed) and also since it only had 256 participants for smash 4. Another thing is that the tournament itself got announced quite late.
It was such a hype tournament though and I'm still waiting for MLG to upload Top 12 of melee and smash 4
 

Asdioh

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There was no Up Throw in SSB(64). Kirby's Forward Throw would be the approximate equivalent in that game (it could also be considered his "Standard Throw" because there was no Pummeling, and pressing the Attack Button would result in his Ninja Drop).
That's why I said "Up"throw, silly!
 

TimG57867

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Oh my goodness....Final Cutter doesn't hit until frame TWENTY THREE. I always knew it took forever to come out but good grief. That's even slower than D-Air!

I always found it odd how people here would talk about how Kirby had "great" frame data and this chart confirms that I wasn't imagining things. In actuality, the speed on all his moves except tilts and jab is actually pretty subpar. Yeah, looking at that this chart, I think we all can agree that Kirby is need of the :4myfriends: treatment. His overall frame data is way too mediocre at the moment given his range. Final Cutter, N-Air, and D-Air are especially of top priority because Kirby's neutral will remain weak until those moves get sped up.
 

KenMeister

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I could never understand for the life of me why Kirby's aerials are soooo slow. He can't ever challenge people in the air with them because of his air speed and those frames combined. Kirby would probably jump up a tier or two if they at least fixed those, like decreasing the landing lag on bair and giving fair auto-cancelled frames.
 

Altair357

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Well, tilts and jabs are pretty important moves to have access to though.

Buff train is def coming tho.
 
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Ansou

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So I've entertained myself a bit by reading through this whole thread... How are you all?

Since this thread has the word "cats" in its title, does that mean that I may post pictures of my cat here?

I'll do it anyway.
 
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