Social Kirby & The Amazing Cats

[Altair357]

Playing friendlies at my local today and I got a reverse up air -> reverse up air -> back air.

I am now a believer.

 

[KenMeister]

So question, how do you guys normally play neutral or go on the aggressive? Would like some general advice from the fellow Kirby mains.

 

[Krysco]

I tend to sh bair, sh and fh dair, pp utilt and dash grab to try and go on the offensive. Granted my experience is limited to FG, mostly dubs but that's my usual aggressive attempts with Kirby. I usually use Kirby vs Shulk, R.O.B., ZSS and Falcon for either their copy ability or to crouch their stuff so Kirby isn't really my aggressive character.

 

[KingDaiGurren]

So question, how do you guys normally play neutral or go on the aggressive? Would like some general advice from the fellow Kirby mains.

typically when I go agressive i'll use fair as my way of getting in. I like to stay in their face and not really give them room to make good decisions. That depends on who i'm playing though, most sword fighter matches i'll swtich to Pit but most other matches I'll play as Kirby since that's who I feel most comfortable with.

What do you usually do to be aggressive though?

 

[Phan7om]

So question, how do you guys normally play neutral or go on the aggressive? Would like some general advice from the fellow Kirby mains.

Good movement, good reactions, good spacing, good pressure, good zoning, good positioning, and good mixups really make the best neutral game. You really want to understand the concept of footsies as well since its what makes everything said above come together. There are lots of videos about it, my favorite so far is this one. Its about street fighter but the general concept applies to smash as well. This is also a good article that relates more so to smash.

Once you master those its fairly easy to be aggressive with anyone imo, some characters obviously better at it than others. I know lots of people will just say they throw out aerials in neutral (with any character) to get in and play aggro but its not exactly about that. I like this post because it really gets in depth about what goes into aggression. Kirby, imo, can and should be played pretty aggressively, especially offstage. Of course there is a time and place for everything, some matchups its a bit more difficult to play him aggressively; but with a lot of characters, if someone thinks they can recover low go out there a bit threaten space above the ledge > fastfall Dair into footstool you'll make it back just fine... just to give one example.

Dont confuse aggression with rush down, perfect aggression requires patience. Its the sweet center in between offense and defense. PPMDs marth on a good day plays like this. To keep it more on smash 4, Zero's and Mr R's Sheiks play that perfect aggression that I kind of think Kirby should play like, which is prob the reason they're so good. Obviously its different, they're sheik lol. Its hard to find the perfect example. I personally like Sheik is Overrated by Mr R. It shows what im trying to say here kind of.

Mixups all really come down to doing something your opponent does not expect. Its a bit different from doing the same thing over and over since doing that same thing can catch the opponent off guard, just dont make the consecutive repetition a habit. You see them in shield waiting to shield grab you to get their Dthrow combo or whatever, react to it and refrain from attacking the shield. Mix up HUP cancelling in front of it out of grab range or into crouch if you can duck their grab, react to their option and punish if you can or take note of what they did and see if they do that next time. You could just come down with an inhale (or any command grab) and beat it. You can position yourself to get behind the shield. You can empty hop into a tomahawk grab. You can empty hop into nothing. You can space aerials. You can read their shield attempt and grab them (which is called the zero grab). You can mix up the timings to Jab 1 and 2. You can Dtilt shields of opponents to cant grab you while crouching. The list goes on. It takes a bit of practice but it eventually clicks. You just want to make sure whatever you do, you have back up plans. Dont just start off the match thinking "oh im Kirby gotta get my fthrow combos, gotta get my Dair to up tilt" or you're gonna get outplayed. I can keep ranting on about this kind of stuff for like 5 more paragraphs but Ill keep it short.

TL;DR ~ Kirby can play aggressively if you take the time to learn how to play aggressively. Good footsies really help with the neutral game. Everything has to be calculated. Once youve mastered how to deal with your opponents habits while making it harder for your opponent to deal with yours, you win.

 

[Asdioh]

Nice post! You should post more, and also go to tournaments and win and stuff (do you?)
I just found this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWvfWwfbYLM and I was actually thinking about this yesterday... have you tested if jab -> falloff -> footstool is guaranteed? It seems like it would be faster to pull off than Dair, but I'm not sure. It's really useful though, and I'm not sure if any characters besides Kirby and Falco can do this. Should be able to pull stuff like this off pretty often in matches, actually.

 

[Kewkky]

To add to the post above, you really need a lot of both matchup experience and competitive experience in order to play good footsies. You need to know what characters can do against Kirby and how far their attacks can reach/how long it takes for them to be able to act out of a missed attack for you to punish them with, as well as how players can use footsies to counter your own. You'll only be able to learn this through trial and error, so don't fret if you're not that good in tournaments. With practice comes perfection.

Just give yourself a small goal in tourneys that you have to stick to no matter what. For example, for me right now my only goal in tourneys is to always beat at least 1 person, since I'm very new to the competitive Smash 4 scene (last tourney i went to I did meet my goal and then got knocked out only by Greninjas, so now I know that that's one of my weaker points and am currently learning about them). Meet that goal and then use the rest of the tourney to get better as a player. Try and make the opponent react in ways you want them to. Most people are so bent on making it farther in the tournament that they'll cave into pressure and you'll see your plans in the middle of a fight actually start working more often than not.


PS: A pretty lulzy trick I do is mutter what I'm expecting my opponent to do before they do it. I played against this Samus player and messed with his head good when I started predicting all his charged shots and saying it before he would do it. Fun stuff!

 

[Vinylic.]

I've put my goal towards getting to loser's semifinals and beyond as I was pretty close last time. I became a lot more confident with myself than I was in brawl, and now I'm currently looking into beating Rosa and Villager while looking for a good secondary. TL seems do be doing well for me.



I forgot to ask, but any current tips on villager and rosa in a non-custom set? That would be a pretty nice birthday gift after 12:00am.

 

[KingDaiGurren]

I've put my goal towards getting to loser's semifinals and beyond as I was pretty close last time. I became a lot more confident with myself than I was in brawl, and now I'm currently looking into beating Rosa and Villager while looking for a good secondary. TL seems do be doing well for me.



I forgot to ask, but any current tips on villager and rosa in a non-custom set? That would be a pretty nice birthday gift after 12:00am.

For villager: i actuallu talked to a couple Villager mains about this, they said this is actally a bad matchup for Villager which I disagreed with but they had some good points

Number 1: Be aggressive and don't give them space to set ANYTHING up.
Number 2: get pocket as soon as possible it gives Kirby an easier way to get in and getting his stronger moves pocketed gives you more rewarding punishes for hard reads and reaction punishes
Personally unless you have a move like timber or bowling ball pocketed I wouldn't recommend going off-stage for an edge guard just because you can get gimped or punished if Villager gets back on stage first.

Happy Birthday

 

[Asdioh]

I'm getting wired wiiU internet soon so hopefully my connection will be amazing. I'll start doing smashladder again at that point, and if anybody here still wants to play me to learn Kirby stuff or whatever, I'll be up for that!

 

[Kwyk]

I'm hoping to get setup for smashladders myself soon, so hopefully I'll be able to learn a few things from you guys. In Melee, I played as Kirby, and for 13 years I played a casual game, not realizing the TRUE difference in my small pond skill, to that of the ocean that is EVO. So, when I went to EVO in 2014, I got my Kirby KICKED first round! So now, in Smash 4, I don't want to make that same mistake, putting YEARS into a game, thinking I'm good, only to have the cold hard truth shoved down my throat...that my main was the WORST character in game...and I had NO chance of winning...

So, I'm trying to research and make my Kirby the BEST it can be! I think Kirby has the potential to be great in Smash 4 (and Melee but I don't have the willpower to pick it up again when Smash 4 is new and fresh), so I'm looking to assimilate ALL Kirby knowledge and become an UBER KIRBY!!

Here's to hoping you guys are a cut above me and can REALLY teach me some things

 

[Vinylic.]

Sounds like good news if I still had internet service.

 

[Kwyk]

Hey guys, I'm looking to find some videos of PRO Kirbys so I can watch and absorb their knowledge. So, my question is THIS:
WHO are some of the BEST Kirby mains for Smash 4, currently?

If you know of some good videos of their play as Kirby, please link them.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Hey guys, I'm looking to find some videos of PRO Kirbys so I can watch and absorb their knowledge. So, my question is THIS:
WHO are some of the BEST Kirby mains for Smash 4, currently?

If you know of some good videos of their play as Kirby, please link them.

I dont have time to post links, but
@MikeKirby ,@ kirbykid and @Smash G 0 D are some notable ones

 

[Asdioh]

Mikekirby is probably the best to my knowledge, but he doesn't have any matches from 1.10 yet, and that patch changed Kirby for the better. You can find his older matches on YouTube easily. Smash g0d has a good Kirby, but he only uses him sometimes I believe. Look for him vs va bengals if it's on youtube, it's recent. I haven't heard much from t1mmy or Triple R lately

I met a Kirby named Runt on for glory a couple weeks ago and he was good. I remember his name from brawl as well, I wonder if he does tournaments? @Runt

 

[Kwyk]

So, I was thinking about facing Ness mains...knowing they have to come around with a PK Thunder to recover, Kirby should have a distinct advantage in that he can FLY out & intercept the PK Thunder, leaving Ness to die, yet can still recover, depending on the distance away and number of jumps used. My thoughts are thus, if recovering from below a Ness player, could a Kirby use Final Cutter, to come upwards fast enough to intercept the PK Thunder, and kill Ness? ALSO, would getting hit by the PK Thunder knock Kirby out of the FC and give him his jumps back?? I'm at work right now so I cant test this...

 

[KingDaiGurren]

So, I was thinking about facing Ness mains...knowing they have to come around with a PK Thunder to recover, Kirby should have a distinct advantage in that he can FLY out & intercept the PK Thunder, leaving Ness to die, yet can still recover, depending on the distance away and number of jumps used. My thoughts are thus, if recovering from below a Ness player, could a Kirby use Final Cutter, to come upwards fast enough to intercept the PK Thunder, and kill Ness? ALSO, would getting hit by the PK Thunder knock Kirby out of the FC and give him his jumps back?? I'm at work right now so I cant test this...

I feel like kirby would have to be off stage already for this to happen, and if you are offstage already there are much better options to gimp Ness you can directly intercept pk thunder with your body since you won't die to it until well over average kill percentages (average being around 120-130) as opposed to final cutter which could potentially spike but at the same time unless you're close to the stage you just end up SDing.

 

[Poupoko]

So, I was thinking about facing Ness mains...knowing they have to come around with a PK Thunder to recover, Kirby should have a distinct advantage in that he can FLY out & intercept the PK Thunder, leaving Ness to die, yet can still recover, depending on the distance away and number of jumps used. My thoughts are thus, if recovering from below a Ness player, could a Kirby use Final Cutter, to come upwards fast enough to intercept the PK Thunder, and kill Ness? ALSO, would getting hit by the PK Thunder knock Kirby out of the FC and give him his jumps back?? I'm at work right now so I cant test this...

Short answer: Yes.

Long answer: Not really. PK Thunder shoots up above Ness's head, so your best bet is to fall on it (or you can catch it from the side as he's making the arc to recover, but you'd have to be farther offstage than him for that...).

Anyway, trying to fall on it is tough because Kirby's slow in the air and PK Thunder is pretty quick in this game. You might risk getting hit with PKT2, and that's never good. Like @ KingDaiGurren said, there are better options if already offstage.

Oh, and Kirby/any other character will only get all their jumps back by landing or grabbing the ledge. Footstools WON'T give you your jumps back!

 

[Kewkky]

Quick question: does intercepting Ness's PK Thunder recovery do the same as in Brawl, where Ness's recovery loses a bit of distance? I used to just use downB on him if I knew I couldn't make it, and thanks to the pseudo-invincibility I would escape unharmed while he'd clash with me and lose distance.

I'd find out in a tourney or something, but there are so many different character mains everywhere that I find it'll be a while before I can properly find this out mid-match, not to mention that I have to get a player in that position first.

 

[Phan7om]

Nice post! You should post more, and also go to tournaments and win and stuff (do you?)
I just found this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWvfWwfbYLM and I was actually thinking about this yesterday... have you tested if jab -> falloff -> footstool is guaranteed? It seems like it would be faster to pull off than Dair, but I'm not sure. It's really useful though, and I'm not sure if any characters besides Kirby and Falco can do this. Should be able to pull stuff like this off pretty often in matches, actually.

I have not gone to a tournament in a while, a lot of stuff has been going on in my life. But no I have not tried jab > falloff > footstool though it probably would work. I have pretty much only tested what was in that video + falloff > Bair stagespike, Fair, and Kirbycide.

 

[Burgundy]

Quick question: does intercepting Ness's PK Thunder recovery do the same as in Brawl, where Ness's recovery loses a bit of distance? I used to just use downB on him if I knew I couldn't make it, and thanks to the pseudo-invincibility I would escape unharmed while he'd clash with me and lose distance.

I'd find out in a tourney or something, but there are so many different character mains everywhere that I find it'll be a while before I can properly find this out mid-match, not to mention that I have to get a player in that position first.

Yeah, getting hit by PK2 halves(?) his distance traveled. If you're good a teching or up a stock you can intentionally get hit and try to tech the stage spike. Though of course this isn't the most optimal way to gimp Ness :v

 

[Asdioh]

Quick question: does intercepting Ness's PK Thunder recovery do the same as in Brawl, where Ness's recovery loses a bit of distance? I used to just use downB on him if I knew I couldn't make it, and thanks to the pseudo-invincibility I would escape unharmed while he'd clash with me and lose distance.

I'd find out in a tourney or something, but there are so many different character mains everywhere that I find it'll be a while before I can properly find this out mid-match, not to mention that I have to get a player in that position first.

Yes, people do it all the time. And you can hit him out of PKT2 with Stone (here). The main difference from Brawl is that the lightning ball that first comes out of his head doesn't disappear when it hits somebody/something. Remember how Lucas' PKT went through things? Ness' PKT is like that right when it comes out, but it becomes tangible shortly after coming out, so you can hit it and cause him to freefall. Another difference is that if he launches himself directly into a wall with PKT2, he can bounce off and then immediately cast it again, up to one time. https://youtu.be/-cMJ8n3-KkY?t=96 it's not something that comes into play often, especially since the only tournament legal stages it's relevant on are like... Duck Hunt, and maybe Halberd or transforming stages with walls, but it's good to know.

So yeah, Ness is still easy to gimp, but only if he's forced to use PKT2. His double jump and airdodge cover a lot of distance, so it can be tough. But if he has to use PKT2, you can just bodyblock him, which cuts the distance of his recovery by about half. Try not to die or get stagespiked! Or you can hit his PKT with something, but only if you wait a little after it comes out. Or you can just hit him while he's casting it. There are other Smash 4 specific changes, but I don't know what you know/don't know. It was recently discovered and proven that you can't tech if you're hit by something while you're essentially touching the stage https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8rpifNUEYo so that's good to know too.

 

[Kewkky]

Yep, I realized the teching thing immediately. I'm normally pretty good at anything that requires split-second decision making, but I couldn't tech things close to the stage for the life of me. Honestly pretty surprising how it only got 'discovered' recently.

 

[KingDaiGurren]

Do any of Kirby's special moves come out fast enough after he is pushed off of the ledge when rapid jabbing?

Here's a link to the technique for anyone who doesn't know what I'm talking about.
http://youtu.be/GzhuS8K18Yo

 

[Kewkky]

I think the best things you can do is either a retreating bair, a retreating fair, or fast-falling and grabbing the ledge for invincibility frames to avoid a punish. It'd be fantastic if you could be pushed off the ledge when rapid jabbing then immediately move towards the stage to kind of automatically "land" so you could change it up with a grab/smash, but sadly it seems like we drew the short end of the stick on that one.

 

[Burgundy]

Does anyone know if Jab-canceling > Final Cutter spike work?

 

[KingDaiGurren]

I think the best things you can do is either a retreating bair, a retreating fair, or fast-falling and grabbing the ledge for invincibility frames to avoid a punish. It'd be fantastic if you could be pushed off the ledge when rapid jabbing then immediately move towards the stage to kind of automatically "land" so you could change it up with a grab/smash, but sadly it seems like we drew the short end of the stick on that one.

Not sure if it would work but hup cancelling into the ground might be the closest thing we could do to getting a grab or a smash attack off of it.

 

[kirbykid]

I can play a little Kirby in Smash 4, but he's still deep in the lab so far. Got tons of tricks though.

 

[Kwyk]

I was messing around in training, and put Link in the middle of (Form) Spirit Trane stage, at 130% I could force him to slide off the stage by turning stone right next to him.

I know there are other ways to kill Link at 130%, but if you're shielding a couple down sword hits on a high damage Link, following up with stone would force him off the stage, and allow you options for edge-guarding.

 

[KingDaiGurren]

I was messing around in training, and put Link in the middle of (Form) Spirit Trane stage, at 130% I could force him to slide off the stage by turning stone right next to him.

I know there are other ways to kill Link at 130%, but if you're shielding a couple down sword hits on a high damage Link, following up with stone would force him off the stage, and allow you options for edge-guarding.

Does Kirby stone fast enough for that to be viable though? Is the timing practical too?

 

[Poupoko]

Does anyone know if Jab-canceling > Final Cutter spike work?

If I'm thinking about this right, then it shouldn't (without suiciding). To get the Final Cutter spike, you have to hit with only the downwards hit while backing away or stop the shockwave somehow (usually by grabbing the ledge or plummeting with them). I don't think the jab-cancel could help with those things but who knows, there might be something there...

I was messing around in training, and put Link in the middle of (Form) Spirit Trane stage, at 130% I could force him to slide off the stage by turning stone right next to him.

I know there are other ways to kill Link at 130%, but if you're shielding a couple down sword hits on a high damage Link, following up with stone would force him off the stage, and allow you options for edge-guarding.

Yeah, grounded Stone sends opponents at a semi-spike angle which is really nice at high percents. The move is also really quick but it's super risky if you fail. It's interesting though, so I might experiment with it for a little bit.

 

[Asdioh]

Did I ever post the frame data for Stone? We know Inhale is 14 frames (I only know this because it was stated in the patch notes, down from 18) but I was always curious about what frame grounded Stone came out on. After testing in training mode, I believe it is around frame 10 or 11, which is really pretty fast. http://pastebin.com/NJ4Q5PzU I compared it to moves on there: it loses to Kirby's frame 10 Dsmash, but beats Falcon's frame 11 Dtilt.
As for aerial Stone, I figured the hitbox comes out in the upper 20s, like somewhere from 27-29.
I remember testing Hammer a long time ago, but don't remember what result was. It's pretty slow

If anyone wants to test Final Cutter frame data, be my guest! Go on training mode with 2 controllers, set the time to 1/4 (Hold L) and see if Final Cutter is faster or slower than moves that come out on specific frames. Hopefully this website http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4 will be updated with Kirby's data soon, but sadly he's one of the last. Pretty rude treatment to save a few of the original 12 characters for last ;_;

/rant: Some of the original 12 haven't gotten too great treatment in this game anyway. Mario, Luigi, Falcon, Ness, Fox, Pikachu, and possibly Yoshi are all quite viable, while Jigglypuff and Samus are pretty crappy. Kirby, Link, and DK are somewhere in between.

 

[Mega-Spider]

Hi. I need some advice when approaching with Kirby. Whenever I start a match with him, it usually goes poorly, but then I make comebacks. I usually try to go with F-airs and grabs when starting with Kirby. Any advice anyone can give?

 

[KenMeister]

Hi. I need some advice when approaching with Kirby. Whenever I start a match with him, it usually goes poorly, but then I make comebacks. I usually try to go with F-airs and grabs when starting with Kirby. Any advice anyone can give?

If you know your opponent likes to pull defensive manuevers up close, try to bait them with empty jumps within midrange. Going in and poking with dtilts also helps.

 

[Mega-Spider]

If you know your opponent likes to pull defensive manuevers up close, try to bait them with empty jumps within midrange. Going in and poking with dtilts also helps.

Thanks for the advice. I need to utilize Kirby's tilts a bit more, especially his U-Tilt of glory.
Also, since this is the Kirby social thread, I've been meaning to ask: What do you guys think of Squeak Squad? It's the next Kirby game I'm playing. If you're wondering what Kirby games I've already played, here's a short list:
Dreamland, Adventure/Nightmare in Dreamland, Super Star (Ultra too), 64, Triple Deluxe.

 

[Halipeno]

Thank you for all the advice, this really helped!

 

[Kwyk]

I've been training with Kirby over the weekend and have become consistent with D-Air to D-tilt.
It seems when I hit with D-Air, then D-tilt, they trip, not ALL the time but some of the time. This allows the combo to continue, & if I can get my opponent to the ledge, I'll switch it up.

D-Air to Stone adds a bit more damage before sending them sliding off the stage, giving you options for edge guarding, and more possibilities for a kill.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

@ Mega-Spider

Squeak Squad is SO BAD. There's literally
nothing new about it, everything is rehashed from older games with some slight changes. Like, I don't know what they were thinking. Super Star Ultra has much more new content compared to Squeak Squad and it's a remake.

 

[KenMeister]

@ Mega-Spider

Squeak Squad is SO BAD. There's literally
nothing new about it, everything is rehashed from older games with some slight changes. Like, I don't know what they were thinking. Super Star Ultra has much more new content compared to Squeak Squad and it's a remake.

I wouldn't mind trying it as long as it isn't New Super Mario Bros. level of recycle. I can play alot of the Mega Man games and not be bothered by lack of changes in between each game as long as the level design, weapons, and bosses are solid and well-polished for example. (like Mega Man 4)

 

[Burgundy]

I kinda liked Squeak Squad but that's just nostalgia. Playing through the game when i got older made me notice how short and bland it was.